is ada dead?

is ada dead?

[tyler spivey]

is ada dead?
is it only used in department of defense?
is it easy/hard to learn? wil it die soon?

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

tyler spivey wrote:
> 
> is ada dead?
No.
> is it only used in department of defense?
No.
> is it easy/hard to learn? wil it die soon?
No.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[Gerhard Häring]

I hesitate to respond to such posts, but here it goes:

On Thu, 05 Jul 2001 21:56:32 GMT, tyler spivey wrote:
>is ada dead?

Not at all.

>is it only used in department of defense?

No, though defense projects are probably still the field most Ada developers
work in.

>is it easy/hard to learn?

Depends. The programming language Ada isn't harder to learn than comparable
languages. New concepts are hard to learn. If you already know the concepts,
any programming language that implements this concepts is just yet another
programming language. Such concepts would be for example:

- Object-oriented programming
- Generic programming
- Multithreaded programming
- typesafe programming

>will it die soon?

If you really are interested in Ada, you should check out the site
http://www.adapower.com/ It should answer most of your questions.

Gerhard
-- 
mail:   gerhard <at> bigfoot <dot> de       registered Linux user #64239
web:    http://highqualdev.com              public key at homepage
public key fingerprint: DEC1 1D02 5743 1159 CD20  A4B6 7B22 6575 86AB 43C0
reduce(lambda x,y:x+y,map(lambda x:chr(ord(x)^42),tuple('zS^BED\nX_FOY\x0b')))

Re: is ada dead?

[wzm]

tspivey8@home.com (tyler spivey) wrote in message news:<ko517.630989$166.13106618@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>...
> is ada dead?
> is it only used in department of defense?
> is it easy/hard to learn? wil it die soon?

No,you are wrong!
Ada is growing now.
And its use has extended to the fields beyond department of
defense,e.g.embeded system,how wonderful it is!And Ada is best for
embeded system.
It's easy to Learn Ada,because the language itself is easy;but maybe
hard,because of its so many language points.
If have a taste of Ada,you will know what you will do!

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From tspivey8@home.com (tyler spivey)

>is ada dead?

No.

>is it only used in department of defense?

No.

>is it easy/hard to learn?

Depends on the background you have.
For most C-people it's very hard to learn. ;)

For me it was quite easy in the beginning (coming from the Pascal side), but 
it takes a lot of time to get more deep into the language.

>wil it die soon?

No!


Vinzent.

Re: is ada dead?

[Pascal Obry]

tspivey8@home.com (tyler spivey) writes:

> is ada dead?
> is it only used in department of defense?
> is it easy/hard to learn? wil it die soon?

This question read like a "7 years" old question ! We have not had such
strange wording about Ada since a long time !

Anyway, all answers are NO.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: is ada dead?

[Martin Dowie]

I've been doing a little monitoring off jobs on
www.jobserve.co.uk and Ada is the only language
in my sample showing any signs of _increased_
use of the last 6 weeks!

Java   down ~25%
C++    down ~17%
COBOL  down ~10%

C#     static
Pascal static

Ada95  up   ~33%

This follows the trend spotted by Computer Weekly
in their quarterly job review (Ada up by
40+%/40+%/25%+ in the last 3 quarters - and the
only language to show 3 consecutive quarters of
growth).

Obviously C++/Java are starting from a much larger
base but COBOL is now only twice as popular as Ada
(in the job advert stake anyway).

I haven't done any "proper" analysis - just counted
the ads, but my assumptions are as invalid for one
language as they are for any other, so I would hope
that the trend is really following what is happening
out there in the UK adverts! :-)

If anyone is interested I can keep the newsgroup
posted as to how this sampling is going.

Perhaps the compiler vendors could chips in with
indications of how they see the market going? ;-)

As for defence only, it was recently reported (CW
again?) that 1/3 of new Ada jobs are in telecoms...

tyler spivey <tspivey8@home.com> wrote in message
news:ko517.630989$166.13106618@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
>
> is ada dead?
> is it only used in department of defense?
> is it easy/hard to learn? wil it die soon?

Re: is ada dead?

[Marin David Condic]

Yup. Ada is dead. That's why there is absolutely no activity on this
newsgroup. :-)

But seriously: Lurk on this group for a while. You'll discover that a) lots
of people use Ada, b) it is not just for the DoD anymore (if anything quite
the opposite) and c) it is easy to learn and fun to use. The full language
is very rich, so don't expect to become a pro overnight, but you can easily
pick up a subset dialect of it very quickly.

Check out http://www.adapower.org/ for lots of Ada resources. For some
indication of who is using Ada, visit:
http://www.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/~dirk/ada-belgium/success/Who_s_Using_Ada.html
For a quick start in getting to know Ada, see:
http://www.learnada.com/index.htm where Bard Crawford has some excellent
materials. There are lots of online tutorials, etc as well. Just get to
Google and type "Learn Ada" or similar stuff or visit AdaPower where lots of
resources exist. You're always welcome to visit my homepage where there are
links & Ada resources as well.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

"tyler spivey" <tspivey8@home.com> wrote in message
news:ko517.630989$166.13106618@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
>
> is ada dead?
> is it only used in department of defense?
> is it easy/hard to learn? wil it die soon?

Re: is ada dead?

[Marin David Condic]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2845 bytes --]

I obviously cannot vouch for the accuracy of someone else's web site. I
offered the link as someplace that would have some information about
companies using Ada. How up to date is it? I'd contact the site owner. I
don't know of any other more up to date sources offhand.

The AdaPower website is where one should start for finding info about Ada -
including who might be using it. There are a lot of links there to follow
for more information. Other sources of info would possibly be SIGAda
http://www.acm.org/sigada/ and some of the links you may find on my web page
(See: http://www.mcondic.com/)

Just for grins, here are a whole bunch of links I've got in my bookmarks -
in no particular order.

http://www.adapower.org/
http://www.adaos.org/
http://www.gnuada.org/alt.html
http://www.gnat.com/
http://www.ghs.com/
http://www.oarcorp.com/
http://www2.dynamite.com.au/aebrain/ADACASE.HTM
http://www.tcsigada.org/meeting/feb99mtg.htm
http://www.usafa.af.mil/dfcs/adamindstorms.htm
http://www.usafa.af.mil/dfcs/bios/mcc_html/adagide.html
http://www.gnuada.org/
http://www.eng.auburn.edu/department/cse/research/grasp/
http://ctrpc17.ctr.unican.es/marte.html
http://home.t-online.de/home/Christ-Usch.Grein/Ada/
http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2000/aug/mccormick.asp
http://www.science-books.net/ada.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry/contrib.html
http://members.nbci.com/ldulman/vad.htm
http://home.trouwweb.nl/Jerry/
http://www.chez.com/bignumber/index.html
http://burks.bton.ac.uk/
http://libre.act-europe.fr/
http://www.acm.org/sigada/ada_letters/
http://www.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/conference/AE2001/program.html#speak
http://www.ccur.com/vod/index.htm
http://www.abssw.com/
http://www.acm.org/sigada/
http://www-inf.enst.fr/ANC/
http://www.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/~dirk/ada-belgium/success/Who_s_Using_Ada.html

All these pages had something to do with Ada. Undoubtedly there are a lot
more, but this is just what was in my collection of bookmarks at the moment.
Enjoy!

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

"Tapio Marjom�ki" <tapio.marjomaki@nokia.com> wrote in message
news:3B45E0E9.E3E7BB55@nokia.com...
Marin  David Condic wrote:
"
For some
indication of who is using Ada, visit:
http://www.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/~dirk/ada-belgium/success/Who_s_Using_Ada.html
"
There is mentioned something about Nokia.
"Finland         Nokia Information Systems: online banking systems."
Would there be anywhere available more fresh statistic than that above ...
As far as I know Nokia does not nowadays use Ada,
but has used  in the 1980's, when it (we) tried to do a 32-bit supermini,
but we were too much ahead of time.. or something...
Tapio Marjom�ki,
Software Designer

Re: is ada dead?

[Robert Dewar]

tspivey8@home.com (tyler spivey) wrote in message news:<ko517.630989$166.13106618@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>...

> is ada dead?

  Hardly, there are many thousands of people making their living
  with Ada these days. A useful thing to remember is that in this
  field, for some reason, if a technology is not dominant, people
  assume it is dead (e.g. people often think of PL/1, OS/2, Pascal,
  Forth etc being dead [all are widely used], and I have even met
  people who thought COBOL was dead [COBOL is still one of the most
  widely used languages]). It's not like that in other fields, no
  one thinks that the Rolls Royce is dead just because they don't
  see thousands of them everywhere.

> is it only used in department of defense?

  Not unless the DoD has much wider influence than I thought and is
  for example in charge of running the cable movie business in France
  (Canal Plus), Air Traffic Control systems all over the world (Vision
  Systems), Internet routing technology (TopLayer), Commercial aviation    
  (Boeing), and Medical Instrumentation (JEOL), just to name a few
  examples.

> is it easy/hard to learn?

  Easier than most languages, for three reasons:

    1. The language is designed to make it easy to read programs,
       which is very useful everywhere, but especially for learning
       it makes examples easier to understand.

    2. Compilers are available which give very good error messages.

    3. At run-time, many beginner's errors are immediately detected
       with clear messages, rather than causing mysterious chaos

> wil it die soon?

   Not clear that any language dies out completely, but Ada is not
   about to disappear any time soon (some of the contracts our company
   has expect to need support for 20 years just on the current    
   projects), and new projects are starting up in Ada all the time.

Re: is ada dead?

[Lao Xiao Hai]

tyler spivey wrote:

> is ada dead?

Yes. It seems no one lives forever.  In the case of Ada,
Countess of Lovelace, she died sometime around 1854.

Richard Riehle

Re: is ada dead?

[Bobby D. Bryant]

In article <3b45a8fb$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Martin Dowie"
<martin.dowie@nospam.baesystems.com> wrote:


> Java   down ~25%

Sadly, the CS department here is just starting a push to standardize the
curriculum on Java, apparently on the dubious logic that "it's the
industry standard".  Even if that were true now, it's hardly likely to
be true when the current crop of freshmen graduate.

I just can't understand the /langue de jour/ mentality.  And besides...
I meet more Perl programmers than Java programmers.  I hope the CS
department doesn't decide to switch to Perl as the primary language of
instruction!

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Re: is ada dead?

[Bobby D. Bryant]

In article <9ff447f2.0107061757.34ca0723@posting.google.com>, "Adrian
Hoe" <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote:


> Ada is a programming language appreciated by engineers who know the
> benefits. Java is a programming language appreciated by people who
> likes to read ads and listen to marketing persuasion.

It looks to me that the family C, C++, Java, and C# show a teleological
evolutionary trend toward becoming an Ada clone.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Re: is ada dead?

[Adrian Hoe]

Lao Xiao Hai <laoxhai@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3B460DA9.C2965042@ix.netcom.com>...
> tyler spivey wrote:
> 
> > is ada dead?
> 
> Yes. It seems no one lives forever.  In the case of Ada,
> Countess of Lovelace, she died sometime around 1854.
> 
> Richard Riehle



Ada is dead in Malaysia. One of UTM's (University of Technology
Malaysia) KL campus was teaching and promoting Ada with a lot of
confidence couple years ago when they were a joint-venture with
Thomson CSF. Recently, I found that they had deserted Ada and switch
to Java for the reason that there is no Ada market in Malaysia.
ANother reason came from one of the senior lecturer was that Ada was
too old. I told the senior lecturer I could not believe what he was
saying because they were so confident about Ada.

So, is Ada dead in Malaysia? I don't know how many Malaysians have
joint CLA, but I will say that Ada is not dead in Malaysia.

Reason? UTM's main campus in JB is teaching Ada in general and real
time programming and there are as many as 120 students right now, yes,
today!

Lexical Integration (M) Sdn Bhd, the company I work with, although not
as agressive as 4-5 years ago, still promoting Ada. Our R&D division
uses Ada for research projects. 100% of all works in Lexical are using
Ada. Lexical Integration will emerge as Ada authority in Malaysia in
no time to come and that's our ultimate goal!

Ada is a programming language appreciated by engineers who know the
benefits. Java is a programming language appreciated by people who
likes to read ads and listen to marketing persuasion. I do not intend
to flame Java. It is a language with its own benefits and strength.
This is what actually happened in Malaysia. People likes to follow the
newest trends.

In universities (Malaysian, Ok?), programming languages are taught not
because of teching the students of programming concepts, but for the
sake of market requirement. That's the most pathetic and irresponsible
decision.

Adrian
Just my 2 cents worth!

Re: is ada dead?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <9i6lak$bqi$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> In article <9ff447f2.0107061757.34ca0723@posting.google.com>, "Adrian
> Hoe" <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Ada is a programming language appreciated by engineers who know the
>> benefits. Java is a programming language appreciated by people who
>> likes to read ads and listen to marketing persuasion.
> 
> It looks to me that the family C, C++, Java, and C# show a teleological
> evolutionary trend toward becoming an Ada clone.

I don't think they will ever forsake their null-terminated strings.

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

Adrian Hoe,

It is good to hear from an Ada user in Malaysia.

It is unfortunate that Malaysian Universities see themselves as sources
of training for technology fads. The story you present below tells me
that UTM is interested only in encouraging payments from students and
industry. It has no real interest in making Malaysia a premier software
education and development center.

The education I can imagine from UTM can be described using an old
phrase American immigrants used to describe the Platte River over
150 years ago: It is a mile wide and an inch deep. Another common
description was "Too thick to drink and too thin to plow." The first
saying indicates that the river is not nearly as impressive as it
may first appear. The second saying indicates that it has no
practical use.

I am amazed that the senior lecturer was unchallenged in his or her
statement about Ada being too old. I expect this is in comparison to
Java. This amounts to saying that a proven product is not as good as
an unproven product because the unproven product is newer. Such a
statement is pure nonesense. 

It is even more nonesensical when you realize that Java has very
few new language developments. It is simply a compilation of a lot
of language features from a lot of other languages. In fact, without
the standard Java API the language would be completely ignored.
It offers nothing new, and it offers all these old features with
very poor performance. 

I would have been tempted to ask the senior lecturer if he or she
was willing to fly in an airplane with avionics programmed in 
Java. 

Look at Java's thread model. It is seriously flawed. This is not just
my opinion. This is the opinion of the Java development team
themselves. The earliest Java thread model included methods stop()
and suspend(). After several years of use it was discovered that
those methods are so unsafe that they had to be deprecated in the
language. The use of each method would frequently result in 
deadlocks and race conditions. The major problem was not that those
methods were faulty, but that the thread model was designed such 
that those methods could not be properly fixed. The only option
left to the Java design team was to simply declare those methods
to be broken, and advise against their use.

Java tried one somewhat new idea for dealing with threads. That is
the concept of thread groups. The idea was that threads could be
associated with a group, allowing all the threads in a group to
be stopped or suspended at the same time. Now that the stop()
and suspend() methods are deprecated, there is no reason to use
thread groups. Thus, the one attempt at real invention in the
Java language was made redundant because the underlying thread
model was so poorly designed. 

Java was originally touted as the answer to client-side programming
in a networked environment using applets. Applets are java
applications running in a user's browser. For several years people
tried to make applets work. Some success was achieved. Then Java 2
was released, with its Java Foundation Classes including the Swing
gui components. Swing is supposed to be usable with applets as
well as regular applications. Unfortunately, Netscape and Internet
Explorer have chosen to ignore Sun's advice on HTML support for
Swing applets. Each has chosen its own approach to supporting
Swing, resulting in a most horrible nightmare of HTML code to
merely start a Swing applet. Even worse, there is no assurance that
Netscape and Internet Explorer will not change their own HTML
syntax to support Swing. The result is that Swing is essentially
unusable in applets. Most companies simply use dynamically created
HTML and CGI to perform client-side programming. Microsoft has
created Application Server Pages for this purpose. Sun followed up
with Java Server Pages.

Applets are simply another feature of Java found to be of little
practical use.

Java is an unstandardized language. Sun likes to call this a
de-facto standard. Sun has its own meaning for such a phrase.
It means that everyone is encouraged to use Java. The Java API
documentation is freely published on the web (even though the
API documentation contains some serious errors). Sun is free to
change the API documentation at any time. The thread example
above is a good example. Sun maintains complete control over
what Java is and is not.

Sun has started into formal international standardization of Java
no less than five times. Each time they have pulled out of the 
effort. It is not clear to me that Sun will ever cooperate with
a standardization of Java. 

Java is clearly not superior to Ada. Java is not even clearly
newer than Ada. Java is clearly more unstable and unsafe to use
than Ada.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> In article <9i6lak$bqi$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> > It looks to me that the family C, C++, Java, and C# show a teleological
> > evolutionary trend toward becoming an Ada clone.
> 
> I don't think they will ever forsake their null-terminated strings.

That may be true for C, but C++ now has a String class, which is not
just a wrapper for the more primitive C strings. Java has a String
class which is also not null termintated. The Java String class is
closer to an Ada Unbounded string, with everything dynamically
allocated. 

Of course, the Java String suffers from the same inefficiencies as 
an Ada Unbounded string. For instance, you cannot edit a Java String.
There are Java methods to change the value of a character at a
specified position. The result, however, is not strictly an edited
string. It is an entirely new string, with all the characters copied
and the edited character replacing the original. In other words, if
you want to loop through all the characters in an existing 1024
character String, replacing each one, you will require the creation
and garbage collection of 1024 1024 character strings. Since Java
characters are all 16 bits, this means that you need to chew up
over 2 Megabytes of data to edit a 1024 character String.

Clearly, Java has abandoned the C null terminated string. Clearly
they have also abandoned any approximation of efficiency in String
handling.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

"Adrian Hoe" <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote in message news:9ff447f2.0107061757.34ca0723@posting.google.com...
> Lao Xiao Hai <laoxhai@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3B460DA9.C2965042@ix.netcom.com>...
 > Ada is dead in Malaysia. One of UTM's (University of Technology
> Malaysia) KL campus was teaching and promoting Ada with a lot of
> confidence couple years ago when they were a joint-venture with
> Thomson CSF. Recently, I found that they had deserted Ada and switch
> to Java for the reason that there is no Ada market in Malaysia.
> ANother reason came from one of the senior lecturer was that Ada was
> too old. I told the senior lecturer I could not believe what he was
> saying because they were so confident about Ada.
[....]
> In universities (Malaysian, Ok?), programming languages are taught not
> because of teching the students of programming concepts, but for the
> sake of market requirement. That's the most pathetic and irresponsible
> decision.

You are in a good society. I was once teaching Real Time Programming and was
using Ada. This was at not that bad U.S. University. Once, after the end of semester
students brought to the Dean collection of Classified from local newspapers and
asked him to find at least one job as that would require Ada. Dean was smart enough
to send them away. And was smart enough to have a nice chat with me. And I was
smart enough to spend the whole summer converting my course from Ada to C.

This decision was not irresponsible and pathetic. There is a job market for Ada
programmers, but very (VERY) small compared to say, C++, Java, VB or COBOL.
Students invest quite substantial amount of money to get a degree, and yes, they
expect that this investment will bring some return. Generally, there is little room
to study for "scientific pleasure". They are studying to get skills that will position
them well on the job market. They will not learn Ada just this is a "better language".
They will study the language that is visible on the market.

What regards using Ada in the industry: nothing will change if the average cost
of SUPPORTED Ada tools is in high 5 digit range. Yes, Ada is better than, say,
Java, at least for some tasks, but I cannot justify the cost just to have a pleasure
of working with "better language". Nothing will change if Ada vendors don't drop
one zero from their price list.

A.L.

Re: is ada dead?

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

"James Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:3B475678.C582735D@worldnet.att.net...
> Adrian Hoe,
>
> Java is clearly not superior to Ada. Java is not even clearly
> newer than Ada. Java is clearly more unstable and unsafe to use
> than Ada.
>

But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.

Who said this?... "garbage dumps are full of superior solutions". The process
of adapting programming language has very little technical component, it is
rather business and social process.

A.L.

Re: is ada dead?

[chris.danx]

"tyler spivey" <tspivey8@home.com> wrote in message
news:ko517.630989$166.13106618@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
>
> is ada dead?

No.

> is it only used in department of defense?

No.

> is it easy/hard to learn?

Easy.  Get John English's book "Ada 95: the craft of object-orientated design".
It's the best book for someone wanting to learn Ada imo (doesn't matter whether
you know another language, or a complete beginner, it's the business).  Norman
H. Cohens book (2nd edition) is a good follow on.

> will it die soon?

No.

Ada 95 is used and taught in at least the first three years at Glasgow Uni.
When we started they told us the reason they teach it is because it

a) promotes good software design

b) allows rapid development due, in part, to the large number of compile time
checks

c) makes it easier to maintain software


All seem to be true, my development time for apps has been reduced
significantly, and I do find it easier to fix broken code than with Pascal and
C, (it has never been due to dubious statements (like casts and so on) which
were major sources of irritation in C).

There has been a lot of discussion about Ada's popularity, with most ppl
agreeing Ada doesn't have the slice of the pie it deserves.  However, Adas
popularity is growing but I think it's being hindered by the DoD connection.
When I went to see the Uni, I asked the CS recruitment officer which programming
language they taught and she told me Ada.  She then said "it's used by the
United States DoD" or words to those effect.

This made me question it's relevance to me.  I thought that the language would
have capabilities unrelated to the projects I work on.  I couldn't have been
more wrong.  It would have been better if she'd have said something like "parts
of projects like AdaOS or seti@home have been written in it", but that was two
years ago.  Maybe this is just me.



Chris

Re: is ada dead?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3b478165_3@news3.prserv.net>, "Andrzej Lewandowski" <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> writes:
> 
> "James Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:3B475678.C582735D@worldnet.att.net...
>> Adrian Hoe,
>>
>> Java is clearly not superior to Ada. Java is not even clearly
>> newer than Ada. Java is clearly more unstable and unsafe to use
>> than Ada.
>>
> 
> But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.

How many of those "everybody" is using Java outside the niche of
World Wide Web authoring ?  Many machines don't even support a
native Java compiler, just use of the Java bytecode engine.

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> 
> You are in a good society. I was once teaching Real Time Programming and was
> using Ada. This was at not that bad U.S. University. Once, after the end of semester
> students brought to the Dean collection of Classified from local newspapers and
> asked him to find at least one job as that would require Ada. Dean was smart enough
> to send them away. And was smart enough to have a nice chat with me. And I was
> smart enough to spend the whole summer converting my course from Ada to C.

Do you really believe that a student graduating from an American
University with a CS degree and no professional experience is ready to 
be employed as a software engineer? I do not. Many companies I have
worked for do not. The one company most willing to hire new graduates
insisted that the new graduates could not be considered software
engineers until completing one year on the job, and that year was
spent under the close supervision of an experienced software engineer.
If, at any time, the new graduate did not appear to be progressing
properly, he or she could be terminated with no excuse or warning.

Other companies I have worked for are less enthusiastic about hiring
new graduates. They typically want three to five years experience
on an applicant's resume or cv before even considering that job
applicant.

> This decision was not irresponsible and pathetic. There is a job market for Ada
> programmers, but very (VERY) small compared to say, C++, Java, VB or COBOL.
> Students invest quite substantial amount of money to get a degree, and yes, they
> expect that this investment will bring some return. Generally, there is little room
> to study for "scientific pleasure". They are studying to get skills that will position
> them well on the job market. They will not learn Ada just this is a "better language".
> They will study the language that is visible on the market.

They study the language most visible in the job postings. That, of
course does not mean that those students will graduate with even a
shadow of the experience needed to perform the positions offered.
If those students look more closely they will see that the positions
advertised all, or mostly all, contain experience requirements.

Studying a language does not help. My experience is that companies
that do hire new graduates expect them to have some understanding of
the basic concepts of software development. They also expect to need
to train those new graduates in the processes, tools, and product
domains concerning the hiring company. This often includes training
the new graduate in the language used by the company. This training
takes about the same amount of time and effort whether or not the
graduate "learned" the language in the University classroom.

The theory used by the students is that University training and
experience really counts. In reality it does not. It is easy for
a university to support this fantasy by chasing the current
software language fad. The university can avoid a lot of meetings
with upset students. Back in the early days of civilization, when I
went through a University education, I was fed a diet of concepts
such as academic freedom, intellectual integrity, and the need for
a deep and broad education. It appears that many universities have
given up on those ideals. Instead, they have become that which they
used to despise. They have become institutions that produce 
people with narrow, and largely useless, educations, instead of
well and broadly educated people ready to build and lead their
civilizations and cultures.

> What regards using Ada in the industry: nothing will change if the average cost
> of SUPPORTED Ada tools is in high 5 digit range. Yes, Ada is better than, say,
> Java, at least for some tasks, but I cannot justify the cost just to have a pleasure
> of working with "better language". Nothing will change if Ada vendors don't drop
> one zero from their price list.

This is now, and always has been, a vacuous argument.

Look at the cost of a professional C development environment.
You need a C compiler.
You need an editor.
You need a build tool such as the Unix make program.
You need a debugger.
You need a syntax checking tool such as lint.
You need a configuration management tool.
You need a run-time profiling tool, to identify little errors
such as memory leaks and array bounds violations.

What do you need for an Ada development environment?

You need an Ada compiler (which contains a very good syntax checker,
  an editing system, and often a configuration management system).
You may need a debugger.

The cost of a C language development system often exceeds the cost
of an Ada development system. 

The real problem is that most companies have no idea how much their
software costs. Most companies have very weak software processes with
few or no meaningful software metrics. That is why most company's
software processes evaluate to CMM level 1. That is why a large
percentage of software development projects in the commercial world
are cancelled before their release date, even after the
expenditure of the equivalent of greater than 10**6 Dollars.

Companies with proper software development processes understand that
tool costs are irrelevant. Project and product failures are the real
expense.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[Jeffrey Carter]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> 
> But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.
> 

Both parts of this conjunction are demonstrably false.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"You cheesy lot of second-hand electric donkey-bottom biters."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: is ada dead?

[Jeffrey Carter]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote [about a university deciding to change from
Ada to C for teaching]:
> 
> This decision was not irresponsible and pathetic.

This statement is false.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"You cheesy lot of second-hand electric donkey-bottom biters."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: is ada dead?

[Stephen J. Bevan]

James Rogers <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> In other words, if
> you want to loop through all the characters in an existing 1024
> character String, replacing each one, you will require the creation
> and garbage collection of 1024 1024 character strings. Since Java
> characters are all 16 bits, this means that you need to chew up
> over 2 Megabytes of data to edit a 1024 character String.

You could do it like that.  However, it would be more efficient to
turn your String into a StringBuffer, which supports in-place updates.
Make all the changes you want to the StringBuffer and then turn it
back into a String.  This way you'd only chew up approximately 3K.

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

"Stephen J. Bevan" wrote:
> 
> James Rogers <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > In other words, if
> > you want to loop through all the characters in an existing 1024
> > character String, replacing each one, you will require the creation
> > and garbage collection of 1024 1024 character strings. Since Java
> > characters are all 16 bits, this means that you need to chew up
> > over 2 Megabytes of data to edit a 1024 character String.
> 
> You could do it like that.  However, it would be more efficient to
> turn your String into a StringBuffer, which supports in-place updates.
> Make all the changes you want to the StringBuffer and then turn it
> back into a String.  This way you'd only chew up approximately 3K.

No, this is approximately 6k. Remember that every Java character
requires 2 bytes.

Yes. The Stringbuffer class is much more efficient than the String
class for editing purposes. It is still terribly inefficient 
compared to, for instance, Ada strings.

Remember the extra processing overhead needed to use a StringBuffer
also. Consider the StringBuffer a linked list of characters.
I say this because the StringBuffer is resizable, while the String
class, and Java arrays are not. This means that the StringBuffer
cannot be implemented using an array. First you allocate 
the space necessary to implement a String containing 1024
characters. The memory used is slightly in excess of 2k bytes.
Next you must allocate 1024 characters and associate them with
the StringBuffer object. This is not explicit to the programmer,
because it is done by the methods in the StringBuffer class.
Finally you must allocate another String containing copies of 
each of those StringBuffer characters, another 2k bytes. If the
original String object is now unreferenced you must garbage
collect roughly 2k bytes. You must also garbage collect the
StringBuffer object and the 1024 elements of two byte characters.
The catch to this is that Java does not define what it means
by garbage collection. Some Java garbage collectors do not
defragment memory after collection. Heavy use of a StringBuffer
can result in highly fragmented memory. This may not be a memory
leak, but it can result in the eventual inability to allocate
a needed block of memory.

The StringBuffer is still highly inefficient compared to the 
ability to edit characters in place in a string. Such editing 
requires no memory allocation or deallocation. Neither does it 
require any gratuitous copying to convert from one type to another.
It certainly does not run the risk of fragmenting memory.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[Stephen J. Bevan]

James Rogers <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Yes. The Stringbuffer class is much more efficient than the String
> class for editing purposes. It is still terribly inefficient 
> compared to, for instance, Ada strings.

Do you mean String or an Unbounded_String?  IMHO a Java StringBuffer
has very similar properties to an Ada Unbounded_String.  If you want
an equivalent of an Ada String, then the best approximation would be
char[] in Java.


> Remember the extra processing overhead needed to use a StringBuffer
> also. Consider the StringBuffer a linked list of characters.
> I say this because the StringBuffer is resizable, while the String
> class, and Java arrays are not. This means that the StringBuffer
> cannot be implemented using an array.

Actually it is implemented as an char[] -- at least in Sun's
implementation anyway.  If you turn a String into a StringBuffer then
it allocates an array large enough for the string plus some slop space
(16 characters).  If you append enough characters to fill the slop
space then a new array is created with a size 2* the current one and
all the characters are copied over.  This has bad worst-case
properties, especially for appending, but it seems to suffice on
average (I've certainly used it on quite a few occasions and it didn't
show up in profiling).  If you need something with better worst-case
properties then you can build it based on a char[].


> by garbage collection. Some Java garbage collectors do not
> defragment memory after collection. Heavy use of a StringBuffer
> can result in highly fragmented memory. This may not be a memory
> leak, but it can result in the eventual inability to allocate
> a needed block of memory.

Agreed, its a quality of implementation issue.  But then so is the
quality of the memory allocation routines you get with an Ada
implementation.  In both cases if you are not happy you can either
write your own pooling code or try a different implementation.


> The StringBuffer is still highly inefficient compared to the 
> ability to edit characters in place in a string.

I agree.  However, if you know you want to edit a String then the best
thing is to avoid making it a String in the first place and either
keep it as a char[] or wrapped in a StringBuffer.

Re: is ada dead?

[Pascal Obry]

"Andrzej Lewandowski" <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> writes:

> You are in a good society. I was once teaching Real Time Programming and was
> using Ada. This was at not that bad U.S. University. Once, after the end of semester
> students brought to the Dean collection of Classified from local newspapers and
> asked him to find at least one job as that would require Ada. Dean was smart enough
> to send them away. And was smart enough to have a nice chat with me. And I was
> smart enough to spend the whole summer converting my course from Ada to C.

I hope you understand that Ada is not only the syntax, right ? Any good
programmer should be able to switch from one language to another in a couple
of days. But with Ada you have certainly been taught the way to handle large
piece of software, how to structure a software and many other software
engeenering princilples. At least I hope :)

All this is rarely well understood using other languages.

Another way to see that is that learning Ada was certainly a very good
investment for you enven if you don't use it today.

Just my 2 cents,
Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: is ada dead?

[Michal Nowak]

On 01-07-07, at 17:37, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote:

>to send them away. And was smart enough to have a nice chat with me. And I was
>smart enough to spend the whole summer converting my course from Ada to C.

Why you made step backward? I'm switching now from C++ to Ada and I do not
regret it. I will not list here benefits of using Ada - it would make this
post very long, besides everybody here knows them. I still have to do projects
for my studies in C++/Java, but after learning Ada error rate decreased,
programs are more readable. Magic?

>This decision was not irresponsible and pathetic. There is a job market for Ada
>programmers, but very (VERY) small compared to say, C++, Java, VB or COBOL.

I search if there are job opportunities in Ada, before I decided to learn it
- I would be waste of time for learning language which is not used and becoming
extinct. I wanted two find them, because Ada is so good language. And I found
them. Lots of jobs in Ada - big pity none in my country, but world is so small :)
It's true, that there is more offers for C++/Java (what is VB - very basic?)
programmers, but Ada projects are much more interesting. Companies use C++/Java/
Visual Basic, because coding time is a bit faster than in Ada - they faster see
program alive, but...Look, how many bugs are in software. New version of software
are produced one after another, just to fix bugs. But the worse thing is that,
software buyers accepct bugs. What you do if you buy bad-working washing mashine?
Return it back. And software? My idea is to produce good, reliable software.
I don't claim that C++/Java programs must be unreliable. I see that writing
reliable software in Ada is much more easier.

>What regards using Ada in the industry: nothing will change if the average cost
>of SUPPORTED Ada tools is in high 5 digit range. Yes, Ada is better than, say,
>Java, at least for some tasks, but I cannot justify the cost just to have a pleasure
>of working with "better language". Nothing will change if Ada vendors don't drop
>one zero from their price list.

Can be true, can be false. Program lifecycle is not only coding. There is also
maintnace, new versions developent. These phases are less money-consuming in
Ada than in other mentioned languages. One important thing - you buy compiler
one time and use it for long period. It is used for writting many programs.
So I think, that good compiler is worthy investing.

-Mike

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: is ada dead?

[Michal Nowak]

On 01-07-07, at 17:41, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote: 

>But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.

And who is using it? I don't. Maybe except applets on www pages.
And you think it is good? Java was intended to be more OO-language than
C++, to help desingning good software. It is step forward in some parts,
but I think it can cause bad habits. Many my friends write in Java - they
turned into "Java-people". But only little percent of them writes good
code. In many cases Java code bacame more messy than C++ code. ???
Yes, garbage collector made them lazy. "I put it here or there, never
mind, garbage collector will do its job". They gaining bad habits. Java
can be one-way ticket. Switching back to other languages can be difficult
(I observed this on labs - many of them had big problems in learning Ada
and trobles in understaning it.)

-Mike

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: is ada dead?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <m34rso3ygq.fsf@yahoo.com>, stephen_bevan@yahoo.com (Stephen J. Bevan) writes:
> James Rogers <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> In other words, if
>> you want to loop through all the characters in an existing 1024
>> character String, replacing each one, you will require the creation
>> and garbage collection of 1024 1024 character strings. Since Java
>> characters are all 16 bits, this means that you need to chew up
>> over 2 Megabytes of data to edit a 1024 character String.
> 
> You could do it like that.  However, it would be more efficient to
> turn your String into a StringBuffer, which supports in-place updates.
> Make all the changes you want to the StringBuffer and then turn it
> back into a String.  This way you'd only chew up approximately 3K.

Programmers should not have to know the efficiency characteristics
of mechanisms underlying an implementation to that level of detail.

Re: is ada dead?

[Gautier Write-only-address]

Pascal:

>Another way to see that is that learning Ada was certainly a
>very good investment for you enven if you don't use it today.

Good point. After all C or Java are not the most used either,
the chances to have to program Visual Basic for applications,
data base languages or COBOL are much bigger...

__________________________________________
Gautier  --  http://www.diax.ch/users/gdm/

NB: Do not answer to sender address, visit the Web site!
    Ne r�pondez pas � l'exp�diteur, visitez le site ouaibe!

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Re: is ada dead?

[Me]

My My My...

Does this mean that possibly programing languages have or will come
full circle?  

Or is this that the developers of new additons of each language
realize the benifits of Ada and want to be Ada wantabes??

No flaming intented , it just seems like a "I told you so " moment.
<smile>
Good Day all


On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 03:36:26 +0600, "Bobby D. Bryant"
<bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

>In article <9ff447f2.0107061757.34ca0723@posting.google.com>, "Adrian
>Hoe" <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Ada is a programming language appreciated by engineers who know the
>> benefits. Java is a programming language appreciated by people who
>> likes to read ads and listen to marketing persuasion.
>
>It looks to me that the family C, C++, Java, and C# show a teleological
>evolutionary trend toward becoming an Ada clone.
>
>Bobby Bryant
>Austin, Texas

GO REDS
GO STEELERS

Some Web sites I apprciate:

Get links to Tutorials on almost any programming language
http://www.programmingtutorials.com/main.asp

The largest programmer database on the net with over a million lines of code/articles/tutorials and thousands of open jobs!
http://www.planet-source-code.com/PlanetSourceCode/

The more people I meet, the more I love my computer.

Spelling and Grammar are forms of Art.
Is it any wonder why I HATE ART?????

BOYCOTT SPRINT:
               Any decision that is made with you,as a
               customer, is decided by a computer. We are
               humans and not electronic BITS of imformation.  

Re: is ada dead?

[Stephen J. Bevan]

Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
> > You could do it like that.  However, it would be more efficient to
> > turn your String into a StringBuffer, which supports in-place updates.
> > Make all the changes you want to the StringBuffer and then turn it
> > back into a String.  This way you'd only chew up approximately 3K.
> 
> Programmers should not have to know the efficiency characteristics
> of mechanisms underlying an implementation to that level of detail.

I'm not sure what level of detail you are referring to here.  The
documentation for String hints quite strongly that you to use
StringBuffer if want to make changes to a String.

Knowing how StringBuffer is actually implemented IMHO is also
important since that is the difference between O(1) and O(n) for some
operations.  The same is true for Unbounded_String in Ada.

RE: is ada dead?

[Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.]

From: Bob Leif
To: Jeffrey Carter et al.

One very expensive judgment, which includes negligence, against a software
vendor will suffice to make vendors conscious that they are legally required
to use the appropriate tools to create their products.

One of the major problems is that there appears to be a dearth of data on
the reliability of software and costs associated with the use of individual
programming languages. I believe I know about all of the Ada vs. C data,
which is minuscule compared to what should be available. The worst culprit
is the US DoD, who insists on good software practices (CMU levels), but who
evidently maintains no statistics on the use of software manufacturing
tools. Building an antiballistic missile is an extremely difficult
engineering job and may even be impractical. However, if DoD is going to
attempt it, a significant investment in Ada would be prudent.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Carter
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 6:46 PM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: is ada dead?


Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
>
> But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.
>

Both parts of this conjunction are demonstrably false.

--
Jeff Carter
"You cheesy lot of second-hand electric donkey-bottom biters."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: is ada dead?

[Bobby D. Bryant]

In article <877kxianb2.fsf@deneb.enyo.de>, "Florian Weimer"
<fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote:


> I would expect that anyone with a CS degree can learn programming in
> any language in a few weeks.

You don't even need a CS degree.  I formerly worked at a big company
that tried moving people into IT to keep from having to lay them off
while hiring new IT staff at the same time.  What was immediately
visible to me (if not to management) is that almost anyone can "learn" a
language well enough to write a line of code that will compile.  The bug
jump is from there to being able to write a program that actually works
right.

Languages are ephemeral.  If I were designing a CS curriculum I would
require the students to use a different language every semester: partly
so they would be flexible when they graduated and got a job in the Real
World, partly so they wouldn't develop the One True Language mentality
that you see so often, and partly so they would learn to see beyond the
syntax to the underlying universals.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

RE: is ada dead?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <mailman.994612811.16952.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, "Robert C. Leif, Ph.D." <rleif@rleif.com> writes:

> One very expensive judgment, which includes negligence, against a software
> vendor will suffice to make vendors conscious that they are legally required
> to use the appropriate tools to create their products.

Typically using practices common in your industry is an adequate legal
defense in the US.

Re: is ada dead?

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

"Michal Nowak" <vinnie@inetia.pl> wrote in message news:mailman.994589417.11908.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> On 01-07-07, at 17:41, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote:
>
> >But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.
>
> And who is using it? I don't.

Your problem, your choice.

> Maybe except applets on www pages.
> And you think it is good? Java was intended to be more OO-language than
> C++, to help desingning good software. It is step forward in some parts,
> but I think it can cause bad habits. Many my friends write in Java - they
> turned into "Java-people". But only little percent of them writes good
> code. In many cases Java code bacame more messy than C++ code. ???
> Yes, garbage collector made them lazy. "I put it here or there, never
> mind, garbage collector will do its job". They gaining bad habits. Java
> can be one-way ticket. Switching back to other languages can be difficult
> (I observed this on labs - many of them had big problems in learning Ada
> and trobles in understaning it.)

I was thinking the same way when I was in the Academia. Now I am working for
industry. My company has good programmers, good designers and they are
writing good Java code. All these are not oxymorons. Good programmer will
write good program in any language, bad programmer will write bad program in
any language. have you ever seem C program written in Ada? You can find
some excellent examples in some book published long ago by Springer. By
the way, we have commercial system for logistics management that sells
pretty well. It is all in Java, over 300 KLOC.

Yes, Java has its problems, threading model is one of them. I made an attempt
to use Ada (JGNAT strictly speaking) to write selected modules. Unfortunately, the
cost of support was prohibitive. I am ready to pay for support, but the cost must
be in sync with the rest of industry.

Java threading model can be easily fixed. I am using CSP model, strictly speaking
JCSP implementation from the University of Kent. Great!

Switching to new language is business decision. Such transition costs a lot and must be
carefully justified. I really cannot find arguments to switch to Ada. For what?... No
programmers, tools in 6 digit range, vendors with unknown financial
future. Moreover, except of programmers we have QA specialists, implementation services,
maintenance service, etc. All these people should know the language to some extent. How it
would cost to replace 50 people? Or to retrain them? And for what? To have "better"
language?

A.L>

Re: is ada dead?

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

"Michal Nowak" <vinnie@inetia.pl> wrote in message news:mailman.994589409.11874.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> On 01-07-07, at 17:37, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote:
 >
> Can be true, can be false. Program lifecycle is not only coding. There is also
> maintnace, new versions developent. These phases are less money-consuming in
> Ada than in other mentioned languages. One important thing - you buy compiler
> one time and use it for long period. It is used for writting many programs.
> So I think, that good compiler is worthy investing.
>

I am sufficiektly familiar with the industry and business to respond
just with single word: NONSENSE.

A.L.

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> 
> Switching to new language is business decision. Such transition costs a lot and must be
> carefully justified. I really cannot find arguments to switch to Ada. For what?... No
> programmers, tools in 6 digit range, vendors with unknown financial
> future. Moreover, except of programmers we have QA specialists, implementation services,
> maintenance service, etc. All these people should know the language to some extent. How it
> would cost to replace 50 people? Or to retrain them? And for what? To have "better"
> language?
> 

This is all true. At some point someone decided to take the risk to
switch to Java. That decision must have incurred all the financial
and technical risks detailed above. Why was that risk justified when
switching to Ada is not?

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[Florian Weimer]

Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:

> How many of those "everybody" is using Java outside the niche of
> World Wide Web authoring ?

I guess Java on the web is mostly dead (except for some niche
applications, of course).  None of the web sites I visit regularly
uses Java applets.  Even my bank got rid of Java in their online
services.  Nowadays, Flash animations are more common than Java
applets.

It seems as if Java is used mostly for ERP and such stuff nowadays, or
on web servers, and not on clients.

Re: is ada dead?

[Florian Weimer]

"Andrzej Lewandowski" <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> writes:

>> In universities (Malaysian, Ok?), programming languages are taught not
>> because of teching the students of programming concepts, but for the
>> sake of market requirement. That's the most pathetic and irresponsible
>> decision.

> This decision was not irresponsible and pathetic. There is a job
> market for Ada programmers, but very (VERY) small compared to say,
> C++, Java, VB or COBOL.  Students invest quite substantial amount of
> money to get a degree, and yes, they expect that this investment
> will bring some return.

I would expect that anyone with a CS degree can learn programming in
any language in a few weeks.  Learning programming languages is easy,
and absorbing the local conventions and rules of a large project is
probably much more time consuming.

Re: is ada dead?

[James Rogers]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> 
> "Michal Nowak" <vinnie@inetia.pl> wrote in message news:mailman.994589409.11874.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> > On 01-07-07, at 17:37, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote:
>  >
> > Can be true, can be false. Program lifecycle is not only coding. There is also
> > maintnace, new versions developent. These phases are less money-consuming in
> > Ada than in other mentioned languages. One important thing - you buy compiler
> > one time and use it for long period. It is used for writting many programs.
> > So I think, that good compiler is worthy investing.
> >
> 
> I am sufficiektly familiar with the industry and business to respond
> just with single word: NONSENSE.

Not entirely. Ada is not always the cheapest compiler purchase.
Sometimes it is very competitive in compiler costs. With many other
languages you also must invest in a suite of enabling tools and
libraries to complete your work and your process. Many of these
expenses can be avoided for Ada. The overall cost of Ada development
environments is actually reasonably competitive with C, or C++.

With Java cost is quite variable. Do you use a free compiler, with
no support? You can do this with Ada, if you choose. Do you 
buy a compiler, and a set of JVM implementations for all your
host platforms? Do you buy a develpment tool such as Visual Age?

Most professional development environments require some kind of
professional tool support. Support costs money. With Java you have
the need for ongoing training to keep up with changes in the 
API from release to release. How well do third party compilers track
the Sun API changes? 

Java has a number of attractive features. Unfortunately, language
stability is not yet one of them. New Java versions are mostly
compatible with old versions. How much testing do you need to
perform to determine if your code has problems with the new version
of Java? What costs are related to that testing? 

The truth in industry and business is that most companies have no
idea what software costs. They employ software development and
maintenance staff. They purchase training and tools. They invest
in process development. They still run at CMM level 1. Most of their
software "knowledge" is no more than urban myth. Software projects
in most companies are traditionally over budget and behind
schedule. It is not unheard of for projects to take years to build,
with dozens of software developers, software analysts, software
testers, and software mangers, only to be cancelled. How do the
costs of any one technology, including compilers, languages, or
tools, begin to compare with the cost of uncontrolled software
projects? In fact, one of the biggest cost improvements for some
companies is to find a tool that makes the failure of the project
obvious at an earlier date, saving wasted money.

Changing languages should not be done without a good combination
of technical and financial reasons. Any fundamental technology
change increases the apparent risk of project failure because it 
adds uncertainty. Managers in many companies are working hard to
try to reduce software costs. Many of them actually fear software.
They are willing to try anything to make their bottom line look
better. They are also aware that it is possible to make things
even worse. The result is that they chase technology fads.
When they hear that their peers in some other company have switched
technologies, and they hear a lot of sales hyperbole about how
this new technology will fix their problems, they make the change.
This process is not logical. It is driven by fear and desperation.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: is ada dead?

[Adrian Hoe]

"Andrzej Lewandowski" <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<3b47806a_4@news3.prserv.net>...
 
> You are in a good society. I was once teaching Real Time Programming and was
> using Ada. This was at not that bad U.S. University. Once, after the end of semester
> students brought to the Dean collection of Classified from local newspapers and
> asked him to find at least one job as that would require Ada. Dean was smart enough
> to send them away. And was smart enough to have a nice chat with me. And I was
> smart enough to spend the whole summer converting my course from Ada to C.
> 
> This decision was not irresponsible and pathetic. There is a job market for Ada
> programmers, but very (VERY) small compared to say, C++, Java, VB or COBOL.
> Students invest quite substantial amount of money to get a degree, and yes, they
> expect that this investment will bring some return. Generally, there is little room
> to study for "scientific pleasure". They are studying to get skills that will position
> them well on the job market. They will not learn Ada just this is a "better language".
> They will study the language that is visible on the market.





One should study for knowledge and that is the ultimate goal. Today,
education has become very commercialized. Sometimes, good knowledge
was not passed on to students. Not teaching Ada is one of the example.
Students are taught what is deemed to be good for their future career
encounter. They have been capitalized. I believe that good programming
concept and habits should be taught and cultivated when they are still
in universities. Ada has been a good language for more than a decade
and it is still progressing and improving. Ada is a good language for
teaching good programming concept and cultivating good programming
habits, because Ada was built on-top of software engineering
philosophy and very discipline in various areas. Good concepts and
habits are most wanted in many companies.

My company, Lexical Integration, switched to Ada in 1995. We were
experiencing tremendous work load in maintaining source codes. We were
using C/C++ and others and we have more than 500K LOC at that time.
Today, we have surpassed 1 million LOC and is heading towards 2
million LOC and SEI levels. Without Ada, we could not imagine how
we're doing.

From our past employment statistics, 0 out of 10 new employees could
not make it through their first 3 months of employment learning Ada.
They dropped out! Reasons:

1.) C/C++ or/and Java is the only language(s) they learned in school.
It is very hard for them to accept different programming paradigm.
From their work (C/C++), it shows that no discipline and good concepts
are deployed in their codes.

2.) They never taught the complete SDLC process in school. They are
kind of "progrmmer-on-the-fly". Giving a programming task, they will
sit in front of workstations and begin working on codes.

Today, our minimum requirement is knowledge of Pascal if not Ada,
because Pascal is very similar to Ada (or Ada is very similar to
Pascal). Students with knowledge in Pascal is more likely to accept
Ada compare to students of C/C++/Java.

This is the scenario in Malaysia. In fact, we have not encountered any
local software company in Malaysia implements full SDLC. Malaysian
governmenr strives to become one of the world's software exporter and
companies, universities and instituitions coerced the motion. MSC,
Multimedia Super Corridor has been established for the purpose. This
is exactly as James Rogers posted:

"The river is a mile wide and an inch deep."

Will it be so bad for students who know just one more extra
programming language, Ada? If the answer is YES, why take all the
troubles studying? Some Universities shorten their courses from 4
years to 3 years and they are saying that they don't have time to
teach Ada!




> What regards using Ada in the industry: nothing will change if the average cost
> of SUPPORTED Ada tools is in high 5 digit range. Yes, Ada is better than, say,
> Java, at least for some tasks, but I cannot justify the cost just to have a pleasure
> of working with "better language". Nothing will change if Ada vendors don't drop
> one zero from their price list.




You pay ZERO $ for Ada compiler. One can download GNAT for free.
Company can consider to purchase support contract if they think they
need one. After building up their Ada expertise, they can go their
own. I think that the money spend now is worth for the future. We have
to look into the distant future and not the one near your nose. If we
(Lexical) were to save the 5 digits in 1995, I will bet that we are
not here today. (Staff turn-over rate was high before we switched to
Ada.)

Just my 2 cents worth.
Adrian

RE: is ada dead?

[Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.]

From: Bob Leif
To: Larry Kilgallen et al.

Larry Kilgallen wrote, "Typically using practices common in your industry is
an adequate legal
defense in the US."

This did not work for the tobacco industry. In an injury or death case, a
good (properly educated) malpractice lawyer will define the industry to have
required mission critical technology.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of Larry Kilgallen
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 2:29 PM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: RE: is ada dead?


In article <mailman.994612811.16952.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, "Robert C.
Leif, Ph.D." <rleif@rleif.com> writes:

> One very expensive judgment, which includes negligence, against a software
> vendor will suffice to make vendors conscious that they are legally
required
> to use the appropriate tools to create their products.

Typically using practices common in your industry is an adequate legal
defense in the US.

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From "Andrzej Lewandowski" <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net>
>"Michal Nowak" <vinnie@inetia.pl> wrote
>> On 01-07-07, at 17:37, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote:
> >
>> Can be true, can be false. Program lifecycle is not only coding. There is
>> also maintnace, new versions developent. These phases are less money-
>> consuming in Ada than in other mentioned languages. One important thing -
>> you buy compiler one time and use it for long period. It is used for
>> writting many programs. So I think, that good compiler is worthy investing.
>
>I am sufficiektly familiar with the industry and business to respond
>just with single word: NONSENSE.

Sorry, that's no nonsense, it just looks to me like some business men didn't 
do their homework in math (ok, I did it neither *g*). For instance, at my 
company it would not make any difference in total cost if the compiler would 
have cost $10k+ instead of now using GNU-tools for the Linux-Version of our 
controlling software. It's three years of C++ development yet, paying two or 
three software developers all over the time a quite good amount of money per 
month and AFAIK until now something around 200k Swiss Franc (~$160k) for 
out-sourcing some GUI-code.

So please tell me about cost optimization, even if the cost of the compiler 
would have been equal to the cost of one or two months of the whole 
development time. This percentage value would show up quite near the end of 
the list in my profiler, I would consider it completely negligible - why 
don't 
use the same philosophy as used in software design for the whole department?

I don't think that this example is just one bad example. It's just the case 
that economists don't have the same profiling tools like me. :-)

Oops, almost forgot: I don't do professional developing in ADA. ADA is just 
a 
hobby for me (at the moment at least, perhaps this might change in the near 
future). I'm still doing ancient, but f* fast assembly code and to tell you 
about some success with that "consider it to be dead, too"-language, I got a 
50-60 _times_ (5,000%) speed improvement last week compared to some old 
code.


Vinzent.

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From "Andrzej Lewandowski" <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net>
>"Michal Nowak" <vinnie@inetia.pl> wrote
>> On 01-07-07, at 17:37, Andrzej Lewandowski  wrote:
> >
>> Can be true, can be false. Program lifecycle is not only coding. There is
>> also maintnace, new versions developent. These phases are less money-
>> consuming in Ada than in other mentioned languages. One important thing -
>> you buy compiler one time and use it for long period. It is used for
>> writting many programs. So I think, that good compiler is worthy investing.
>
>I am sufficiektly familiar with the industry and business to respond
>just with single word: NONSENSE.

Sorry, that's no nonsense, it just looks to me like some business men didn't 
do their homework in math (ok, I did it neither *g*). For instance, at my 
company it would not make any difference in total cost if the compiler would 
have cost $10k+ instead of now using GNU-tools for the Linux-Version of our 
controlling software. It's three years of C++ development yet, paying two or 
three software developers all over the time a quite good amount of money per 
month and AFAIK until now something around 200k Swiss Franc (~$160k) for 
out-sourcing some GUI-code.

So please tell me about cost optimization, even if the cost of the compiler 
would have been equal to the cost of one or two months of the whole 
development time. This percentage value would show up quite near the end of 
the list in my profiler, I would consider it completely negligible - why 
don't 
use the same philosophy as used in software design for the whole department?

I don't think that this example is just one bad example. It's just the case 
that economists don't have the same profiling tools like me. :-)

Oops, almost forgot: I don't do professional developing in ADA. ADA is just 
a 
hobby for me (at the moment at least, perhaps this might change in the near 
future). I'm still doing ancient, but f* fast assembly code and to tell you 
about some success with that "consider it to be dead, too"-language, I got a 
50-60 _times_ (5,000%) speed improvement last week compared to some old 
code.


Vinzent.

Re: is ada dead?

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 952 bytes --]


"Vinzent Hoefler" <vinzent@MailAndNews.com> a �crit dans le message news: 3B5F53D1@MailAndNews.com...
> Oops, almost forgot: I don't do professional developing in ADA. ADA is just
> a
> hobby for me (at the moment at least, perhaps this might change in the near
> future). I'm still doing ancient, but f* fast assembly code and to tell you
> about some success with that "consider it to be dead, too"-language, I got a
> 50-60 _times_ (5,000%) speed improvement last week compared to some old
> code.
>
Well... Recently, I improved some code from one of my clients 50 times too - by replacing convoluted Ada code by better Ada code.

Not to diminish the value of what you are doing - just another example that you can get tremendous speed-ups by doing the right
thing, irrespective of language.

--
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From "Jean-Pierre Rosen" <rosen@adalog.fr>
>"Vinzent Hoefler" <vinzent@MailAndNews.com> a écrit dans le message news:
3B5F53D1@MailAndNews.com...
>> future). I'm still doing ancient, but f* fast assembly code and to tell you
>> about some success with that "consider it to be dead, too"-language, I got
a
>> 50-60 _times_ (5,000%) speed improvement last week compared to some old
>> code.
>>
>Well... Recently, I improved some code from one of my clients 50 times too -
by
>replacing convoluted Ada code by better Ada code.

That's cool. And probably you did a much better job then.

>Not to diminish the value of what you are doing -

Oh no, writing it wasn't that hard. The hard work was still done with pencil
and paper to figure out the algorithm. The fact is that Assembly just does a
much better job in simple bit shuffling with floating point variables than a
dumb compiler that always decides to use floating point instructions with
such
ones[*] and does not even really know of 64-bit mantissas or of the
existance
of quite strange 24-bit floating point formats at all. Not to mention the
little/big endian problem.

Expressing those in HLL would have become more unreadable than the less than
40 lines of well commented assembly that probably no-one is ever looking at
again once it is working.

[*]Bad side effect of strong typing, I guess. ;-)))

>just another example that you can get tremendous speed-ups by doing the right
>thing, irrespective of language.

Yes. First improve the algorithm. That's what I really did in the end. Just
chose a better suited language. :-)


Vin"Writing too much, should work on my device driver."zent.

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From "Jean-Pierre Rosen" <rosen@adalog.fr>
>"Vinzent Hoefler" <vinzent@MailAndNews.com> a écrit dans le message news:
3B5F53D1@MailAndNews.com...
>> future). I'm still doing ancient, but f* fast assembly code and to tell you
>> about some success with that "consider it to be dead, too"-language, I got
a
>> 50-60 _times_ (5,000%) speed improvement last week compared to some old
>> code.
>>
>Well... Recently, I improved some code from one of my clients 50 times too -
by
>replacing convoluted Ada code by better Ada code.

That's cool. And probably you did a much better job then.

>Not to diminish the value of what you are doing -

Oh no, writing it wasn't that hard. The hard work was still done with pencil
and paper to figure out the algorithm. The fact is that Assembly just does a
much better job in simple bit shuffling with floating point variables than a
dumb compiler that always decides to use floating point instructions with
such
ones[*] and does not even really know of 64-bit mantissas or of the
existance
of quite strange 24-bit floating point formats at all. Not to mention the
little/big endian problem.

Expressing those in HLL would have become more unreadable than the less than
40 lines of well commented assembly that probably no-one is ever looking at
again once it is working.

[*]Bad side effect of strong typing, I guess. ;-)))

>just another example that you can get tremendous speed-ups by doing the right
>thing, irrespective of language.

Yes. First improve the algorithm. That's what I really did in the end. Just
chose a better suited language. :-)


Vin"Writing too much, should work on my device driver."zent.

Re: is ada dead?

[Marin David Condic]

The nice thing about Ada is that you can readily convert between the two
type and possibly utilize the Bounded_String type as a compromise. For most
of the things I do I use Unbounded_String because its fairly easy to move
them around, append things, etc. A lot of string manipulation doesn't
involve much editing, but does involve keeping track of length and/or moving
the data from place to place. Unbounded_String makes this very easy by not
having a static allocation & it is probably tolerably efficient for most
stuff. If you *do* need to do some sort of heavy editing & a static
allocation is more efficient, its pretty easy to hop into a subroutine that
allocates a static string of the right size, convert the Unbounded_String,
do the editing and go back. Of course, the necessity of doing this is
probably pretty rare (relative to the total amount of string handling code
that might exist in an app) and will be implementation dependent (some
compilers may be more efficient with it than others.) On the whole, its just
a matter of making the best use of the tools available & Ada certainly has a
lot of tools in this area.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Stephen J. Bevan" <stephen_bevan@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:m31yns3s9v.fsf@yahoo.com...
> Do you mean String or an Unbounded_String?  IMHO a Java StringBuffer
> has very similar properties to an Ada Unbounded_String.  If you want
> an equivalent of an Ada String, then the best approximation would be
> char[] in Java.
>
>

Re: is ada dead?

[Marin David Condic]

That's rather presuming that all business decisions are made on some sort of
rational basis. Figure that languages develop constituencies - Java got a
stron constituency from a lot of C/C++ programmers who found it to have
advantages, but wasn't too far from what they were used to. They had some
help from the marketing guys who sold them on how "cool" it was. The poor
sap who manages the organization has grown far from being able to keep up
with technical innovations, etc., and has to trust his staff to tell him
what is the "right" decision WRT languages. His techno-dweebs say "Java is
the hip thing!" and he's got to believe them, so migration is made that way.

IMHO, if we want to sell Ada, it has to be from that grass-roots level. Get
the programers in the trenches using it in some capacity and deciding that
they like it & it will start to percolate up to the "business decision"
level. Key to that is having the kinds of development tools that are found
for C++, Java, et alia. If a development kit was bundled up and put on
bookshelves in Frye's or CompUSA, etc. that might go a long way to
increasing awareness in the right crowd.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"James Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B490751.38523577@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> This is all true. At some point someone decided to take the risk to
> switch to Java. That decision must have incurred all the financial
> and technical risks detailed above. Why was that risk justified when
> switching to Ada is not?

Re: is ada dead?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9ibs7t$mim$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, Bobby D. Bryant says...
>Languages are ephemeral.  If I were designing a CS curriculum I would
>require the students to use a different language every semester: partly
>so they would be flexible when they graduated and got a job in the Real
>World, partly so they wouldn't develop the One True Language mentality
>that you see so often, and partly so they would learn to see beyond the
>syntax to the underlying universals.

That's pretty much what my undergrad program did (Tulane, for those of you
taking notes :-) ). I think CS1 and 2 were Pascal, but other *required* courses
used Assembly, C, SQL, and AHPL. Due to electives I also had to use LISP and
Fortran. They were quite up front that they were training us to be able to pick
up practicaly any language. I can also say first hand that I found this exposure
*very* valuable. For instance, I always had trouble getting my mind around
recursion, until I spent a few months programming in LISP.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: is ada dead?

[Jerry Petrey]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> 
> > "Michal Nowak" <vinnie@inetia.pl> wrote:
> >
> > Can be true, can be false. Program lifecycle is not only coding. There is also
> > maintnace, new versions developent. These phases are less money-consuming in
> > Ada than in other mentioned languages. One important thing - you buy compiler
> > one time and use it for long period. It is used for writting many programs.
> > So I think, that good compiler is worthy investing.
> >
> 
> I am sufficiektly familiar with the industry and business to respond
> just with single word: NONSENSE.
> 
> A.L.

This is certainly not nonsense.  But don't feel bad.  Many people in the
industry are unable to understand the true cost of developing software
and
only look at the up-front coding costs, tool costs, etc.  That is one of
the 
main reasons most software is over budget and of poor quality or not
even 
ever delivered.

Jerry
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Jerry Petrey                                                
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation, Guidance, & Control
-- Raytheon Missile Systems          - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to
reply                  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: is ada dead?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <vxM17.5691$WS4.884877@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx
says...
>This made me question it's relevance to me.  I thought that the language would
>have capabilities unrelated to the projects I work on.  I couldn't have been
>more wrong.  It would have been better if she'd have said something like "parts
>of projects like AdaOS or seti@home have been written in it", but that was two
>years ago.  Maybe this is just me.

Well...in fairness to her, the SETI@Home Service wasn't around two years ago.

Also, I should point out (because it isn't clear from the above) that the
SETI@Home Service is just an add-on for the official SETI@Home project's windows
text client. As far as I know, there is no Ada being used on the actual
SETI@Home project. 

Still, its awfully nice to think that the project could be used as an explicit
evangelism tool. Its going to be awfully tough to wipe the smile off my face the
rest of the day... :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: is ada dead?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9icg1p$kpi$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
>what is the "right" decision WRT languages. His techno-dweebs say "Java is
>the hip thing!" and he's got to believe them, so migration is made that way.
>
>IMHO, if we want to sell Ada, it has to be from that grass-roots level. Get

I see two possible ways to increase Ada's "hipness". One would be a massive
marketing campaign, like Sun did for Java. I don't think anyone in the Ada
community has that kind of dough to throw around.

The other is to start developing lots of "cool" stuff with it. *That*, I think
we can do. Right now the best example of this that I know of is GVD
(http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/ ), but perhaps I'm a werido for thinking
debuggers are cool. :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: is ada dead?

[chris.danx]

> >This made me question it's relevance to me.  I thought that the language
would
> >have capabilities unrelated to the projects I work on.  I couldn't have been
> >more wrong.  It would have been better if she'd have said something like
"parts
> >of projects like AdaOS or seti@home have been written in it", but that was
two
> >years ago.  Maybe this is just me.

> Well...in fairness to her, the SETI@Home Service wasn't around two years ago.

Sorry for my poor English, that's what i meant by "but that was two years ago".



> Still, its awfully nice to think that the project could be used as an explicit
> evangelism tool. Its going to be awfully tough to wipe the smile off my face
the
> rest of the day... :-)

LOL



Chris

Re: is ada dead?

[Al Christians]

Jerry Petrey wrote:
> 
> This is certainly not nonsense.  But don't feel bad.  Many people in 
> the industry are unable to understand the true cost of developing 
> software and only look at the up-front coding costs, tool costs, etc.  > That is one of the main reasons most software is over budget and of 
> poor quality or not even ever delivered.
> 

Suppose you are an electrician and you hear about a new kind of 
wirecutter.  There are studies that say this wirecutter improves
average productivity by 2%.  If you do the math, you can figure that
this is worth $2,000 to you over the expected 5 year life of the
wirecutters.  You go to the store and see $1,295 wirecutter on sale
next to all the others at $11.  Which pair do you buy?  Which toolmaker
has biggest market share and good cash flow to finance ways to improve
their product?

For $1,284 most can think up a reason why they are not average. 


Al

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com>

>The other is to start developing lots of "cool" stuff with it. *That*, I 
think
>we can do. Right now the best example of this that I know of is GVD
>(http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/ ), but perhaps I'm a werido for thinking
>debuggers are cool. :-)

Hey, this one _is_ cool.

But, hmm, quite long buglist for an Ada project *ouch* *NO, NO, NO, please 
don't beat me, it's just the big font!*

:-)

Vinzent.

Re: is ada dead?

[Michal Nowak]

>> >But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.
>>
>> And who is using it? I don't.
>
>Your problem, your choice.

Why problem? This is still no-only-Java world. I may choose among other
software.

>industry. My company has good programmers, good designers and they are
>writing good Java code.

Congratulations! I wish you best and only good programmers.

>Good programmer will
>write good program in any language, bad programmer will write bad program in
>any language.

I agree. I did not say, that if you write in Ada you always do good programs,
and if you write in non-Ada you write bad programs. I want to say, that Ada
has some great features, that help programmer in his/her work.
Features which Java/C++ doesn't have.

>Switching to new language is business decision.
>And for what? To have "better" language?

What you mean by switching? Resing from one language and start all in new one?
Here you are right. But I think about doing things concurrently. Maybe start
from little project in other language (maybe Ada :)), if needed.
I don't want to force you to change Java to Ada because this or that. If your
company is doing well in Java, do it in Java. But there is a lot of projects,
where it is better to write in Ada, and a lot of people, who like to write in Ada.

-Mike

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: is ada dead?

[Jerry Petrey]

Ted Dennison wrote:
> 
> In article <9icg1p$kpi$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
> >what is the "right" decision WRT languages. His techno-dweebs say "Java is
> >the hip thing!" and he's got to believe them, so migration is made that way.
> >
> >IMHO, if we want to sell Ada, it has to be from that grass-roots level. Get
> 
> I see two possible ways to increase Ada's "hipness". One would be a massive
> marketing campaign, like Sun did for Java. I don't think anyone in the Ada
> community has that kind of dough to throw around.
> 
> The other is to start developing lots of "cool" stuff with it. *That*, I think
> we can do. Right now the best example of this that I know of is GVD
> (http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/ ), but perhaps I'm a werido for thinking
> debuggers are cool. :-)
> 
> ---
> T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
>           home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com


You mean you need a debugger with Ada? :-)

Jerry
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Jerry Petrey                                                
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation, Guidance, & Control
-- Raytheon Missile Systems          - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to
reply                  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: is ada dead?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <3B4A13B0.11BAD466@west.raytheon.com>, Jerry Petrey <"jdpetrey
says...
>Ted Dennison wrote:
>> we can do. Right now the best example of this that I know of is GVD
>> (http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/ ), but perhaps I'm a werido for thinking
>> debuggers are cool. :-)
>You mean you need a debugger with Ada? :-)

A better developer might not, but yes I do. My C, on the other hand, mostly
needs euthenasia. :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: is ada dead?

[Pat Rogers]

"Al Christians" <alc@PublicPropertySoftware.com> wrote in message
news:3B49D87C.6B349412@PublicPropertySoftware.com...
<snip>
> Suppose you are an electrician and you hear about a new kind of
> wirecutter.  There are studies that say this wirecutter improves
> average productivity by 2%.  If you do the math, you can figure that
> this is worth $2,000 to you over the expected 5 year life of the
> wirecutters.  You go to the store and see $1,295 wirecutter on sale
> next to all the others at $11.  Which pair do you buy?  Which toolmaker
> has biggest market share and good cash flow to finance ways to improve
> their product?
>
> For $1,284 most can think up a reason why they are not average.

According to the Zeigler Paper (for the case of C and Ada), the productivity
boost of going to Ada was 400% IIRC.  Pretty big boost, for a quite
reasonable -- and comparable -- price!

Re: is ada dead?

[Al Christians]

Pat Rogers wrote:
> 
> 
> According to the Zeigler Paper (for the case of C and Ada), the productivity
> boost of going to Ada was 400% IIRC.  Pretty big boost, for a quite
> reasonable -- and comparable -- price!

YDRC.

The paper doesn't say that at all.  It gives cost per source line
as $10.52 for C and $6.62 for Ada.  OTOH it allows that Ada is more 
verbose than C, so not so much relative difference per delivered
function.  
The figures are weakened some when you consider that Ada and C were not 
tested on identical projects, and this result is closer to whatever I 
said than it is to 400%.  Furthermore, he concludes by saying what I 
typed, that other factors are more important than programming language.  

He attributes at least some (he doesn't say how much) of the advantage
of
Ada not directly to the language itself, but indirectly from the things 
that Ada 'encourages', ie better program design and better
documentation.  
If a manager sees that he'll do better with better program design and 
better documentation, he'll try to encourage that directly before he
goes 
into the big six figures to deploy and train a whole new set of tools. 


Al

Re: is ada dead?

[Emmanuel Briot]

Vinzent Hoefler <vinzent@MailAndNews.com> writes:
> The other is to start developing lots of "cool" stuff with it. *That*, I
> think >we can do. Right now the best example of this that I know of is GVD
> >(http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/ ), but perhaps I'm a werido for thinking
> >debuggers are cool. :-)
>
> Hey, this one _is_ cool.
>
> But, hmm, quite long buglist for an Ada project *ouch* *NO, NO, NO, please
> don't beat me, it's just the big font!*


Not beating you on the head, but:

There are actually several things worth nothing with regards to gvd:

- thanks to Ada, the development was very fast (we started coding at the
  beginning of May 2000, and had a first public release around november I
  think, with a very usable version already.

- The list of "bugs" is in fact not that long. If you look into the file we
  have put in the distribution, it is more of a list of things to do or that
  would be nice to have, ie a list of possible enhancements. There are some
  bugs, admittedly (and we fix some every week, especially related to
  cross-platform development :-().

- Another big win of Ada is the portability: porting from our linux machines to
  a windows host was mostly the matter of rewritting the low-level communication  package (through pipes and ttys). And this package has now been integrated in
  GNAT itself, so the portability would be even easier now :-)
  I do not know of many C projects that are as easy to port...

- GVD might be one of the first free-software Ada project (along with
  Seti@home) that doesn't only target the Ada world.


Now, something not related to you.  I see lots of people suggesting that we
should have lots of Ada applications around to prove that Ada is not
dead. However, as the co-author of several big packages that were released as
open-source projects (GtkAda, GVD, XML/Ada, ada-mode for Emacs), I am sorry to
say that we do not get a lot of patches (certainly less that equivalent C
projects do).  We do fully appreciate the bug reports, and the few suggestions
for enhancements, but that doesn't increase the time we have to develop the
projects!

I don't know if this is related to the size of the Ada community, or simply a
lack of a free-software culture in this Ada world, but it would certainly seem
like the first nice step forward (contributing to existing Ada projects).
There is also AWS, OpenToken, AdaOS,... so there's probably already something
you might be interested in and where your knowledge would be much appreciated.
It would be interesting to know from the authors of the other packages whether
they get patches or not.

Emmanuel

Re: is ada dead?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <l8g0c5nomd.fsf@berlin.int.act-europe.fr>, Emmanuel Briot says...
>
>dead. However, as the co-author of several big packages that were released as
>open-source projects (GtkAda, GVD, XML/Ada, ada-mode for Emacs), I am sorry to
>say that we do not get a lot of patches (certainly less that equivalent C
>projects do).  We do fully appreciate the bug reports, and the few suggestions
>for enhancements, but that doesn't increase the time we have to develop the
>projects!
>
>I don't know if this is related to the size of the Ada community, or simply a
>lack of a free-software culture in this Ada world, but it would certainly seem
>like the first nice step forward (contributing to existing Ada projects).
>There is also AWS, OpenToken, AdaOS,... so there's probably already something
>you might be interested in and where your knowledge would be much appreciated.
>It would be interesting to know from the authors of the other packages whether
>they get patches or not.

I actually have 4 free software projects right now: Fodderbot and AdaClips (both
inactive), and OpenToken, and the SETI@Home Service. 

Fodderbot (an expert system for playing Empire) never seemed to get much
interest from anyone. That was OK, as it was really just a school project
anyway. The market it was directed towards already had lots of (better) scripts
available to do what it does, so its understandable that no-one got real
interested in it just because it was "AI".

AdaClips (Ada interface to CLIPS expert system shell) I believe garnered me all
of 2 emails of the "Cool! I needed that" variety. No-one ever submitted
anything. But then it was marked as "inactive" the day I released it, so there
wasn't a lot of incentive I guess.

OpenToken received quite a bit of interest, and has had 2 major contributors
other than myself. Probably up near a quarter of the code in it was submitted by
users, and I have received numerous "patches" or bugfixes.

The SETI@Home service seems to have loads of users (I really need to put a hit
counter on my page). I understand there is even a mirror somewhere in europe. I
get oodles of email from users, but the vast majority of it is from
non-programmers. Most of the rest is feature requests. In the 7 months since its
release, I think I've had one user dive into the sources to pinpoint a problem
for me. I've never had any sources submitted. But then, reliability is one of
its prime goals. It has only had about 3 bugs discovered since inception (and
none were fatal). So perhaps there just hasn't been the need.

But I suspect the reason for the big difference in participation between
OpenToken and SETI_Service is just the nature of the two projects. Anyone using
OpenToken is going to be a programmer, while very few users of SETI_Service seem
to be. Also, OpenToken is designed to be incredibly modular and extendable,
which means it is routine for people to develop their own additional
functionality. The only decision is whether to contribute that back or not. The
SETI@Home Service really only has one small job to do. I try to encourage people
online to add their pet features to the SETI_Service sources, but so far I don't
seem to have had any takers (perhaps I have, but they haven't told me about it).
To do so would require reading through my sources, figuring out what they do,
then modifying them. Adding to OpenToken is simply a matter of making your own
package and extending the appropriate tagged type.

So if there is a lesson to derive from all this mess :-), perhaps it is that the
best way to encourage contributions is to make your project as easily and
modularly extensible as possible. It would be interesting to see a more
controlled study of this theory.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

RE: is ada dead?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From Emmanuel Briot <briot@gnat.com>

>Vinzent Hoefler <vinzent@MailAndNews.com> writes:
[GVD]
>> But, hmm, quite long buglist for an Ada project *ouch* *NO, NO, NO, please
>> don't beat me, it's just the big font!*
>
>Not beating you on the head, but:

Ok, thank you. I just tried to make a little joke.

>There are actually several things worth nothing with regards to gvd:
>
>- thanks to Ada, the development was very fast (we started coding at the
>  beginning of May 2000, and had a first public release around november I
>  think, with a very usable version already.

Indeed, that's fast.

>- The list of "bugs" is in fact not that long.

I already noticed that. :-)

[portability]
>  I do not know of many C projects that are as easy to port...

ACK. Sometimes I think, the so called portability of C is just an ancient 
myth. One really can write good portable code in C, if he takes care of what 
he writes, but C itself isn't very helpful in doing that.


Ok, I got work to do,

Vinzent.


-- 
... The C-song continued ...
then I found my code in tons of trouble, and my boss was firing me,
spoke last words of wisdom: Write in Ada, not in C.

Re: is ada dead?

[Pascal Obry]

Emmanuel Briot <briot@gnat.com> writes:

> Now, something not related to you.  I see lots of people suggesting that we
> should have lots of Ada applications around to prove that Ada is not
> dead. However, as the co-author of several big packages that were released as
> open-source projects (GtkAda, GVD, XML/Ada, ada-mode for Emacs), I am sorry to
> say that we do not get a lot of patches (certainly less that equivalent C
> projects do).  We do fully appreciate the bug reports, and the few
> suggestions for enhancements, but that doesn't increase the time we have to
> develop the projects!
> 
> I don't know if this is related to the size of the Ada community, or simply a
> lack of a free-software culture in this Ada world, but it would certainly seem
> like the first nice step forward (contributing to existing Ada projects).
> There is also AWS, OpenToken, AdaOS,... so there's probably already something
> you might be interested in and where your knowledge would be much
> appreciated.

I agree 100%.

> It would be interesting to know from the authors of the other packages
> whether they get patches or not.

As one of AWS author I must say that we got some patches from 3 or 4
peoples. But indeed we do not get much. Same for Win32-POSIX, SMTP and others
packages. All this is done on my free time for the Ada community, we have a
rather large community at this point and I think that we should be able to do
some nice stuff together.

As Emmanuel said, there is plenty of active Ada projects in differents field
and certainly everybody should be able to find a project to contribute :)

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: is ada dead?

[raj]

>But almost everybody is using Java and almost non\body is using Ada.

One result of this is that managers say:
" But if we use Ada were are we going to get new programmers"
Considering that the turnover in the industry is around 60 % per year
this may not be an unreasonable argument. There are plenty of Java ,
and C++ and Perl programmers. Ada programmers are as rare as lisp
prgrammers.

In addition, most Ada programmers I have come across are elderly 
(ie: over 40 ) and we all know that the average manager prefers hiring
a programmer in his/her late 20's to early 30's. 
( Among other advantages they can be paid less and take less time off
for their families ...)

Re: is ada dead?

[raj]

>Who said this?... "garbage dumps are full of superior solutions". The process
>of adapting programming language has very little technical component, it is
>rather business and social process.

True.
Just look at the marginalisation of Lisp , Smalltalk and ML.

GVD bug list. Perhaps a better language is not enough....

[raj]

On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:20:50 -0400, Vinzent Hoefler
<vinzent@MailAndNews.com> wrote:
>But, hmm, quite long buglist for an Ada project *ouch* *NO, NO, NO, please 
>don't beat me, it's just the big font!*

Here is the GVD bug list. Perhaps a better language is not enough....



http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/known-problems
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Problem:    Variant records that have at least one alternative with a
null part are incorrectly parsed (parsing error, nothing displayed in
 the canvas).   Workaround: Use the tooltips in the source window to
look at the value of  the variable. - Closing of the first of multiple
debuggers.

 Problem:    When multiple debuggers are present, closing the first
one raises   an error.   Workaround: No workaround for this problem,
fixed in GVD 1.1.0. 

 Interrupt button does not work under Windows
 Problem:    Hitting the 'Interrupt' button does nothing under windows
              systems.   Workaround: Use breakpoints instead to stop
the underlying process. - Cancel in File->Open Program does not work
properly
  Problem:    Hitting the 'Cancel' button causes GVD to ask the
debugger
              to open the '' program. One symptom is, when a program
was
              already open, a question from gdb asking whether the
symbols
              from the previous program should be discarded.
Workaround: Do not press on the 'Cancel' button :-) - [8408-001]
Known Problems fixed in GVD 1.2.0 - Question dialogs are off by one
character

 Problem:    When GVD pops up a question with a list of choices, the
last              choice is truncated by one character.
  Workaround: The complete message appears in the console window. -
Editor contextual menu doesn't take the selection into account in C
mode
  Problem:    If you are debugging a C file, and select some text in
the
              source editor, then the contextual menu doesn't
reference this
              selected text but still references the entity below the
cursor.
              This behavior doesn't exist in Ada mode
  Workaround: Use the debugger console to emit the commands directly,
through
              "graph display" and "break" (see documentation) -
Printing Ada arrays of access types with repeated values
  Problem:    when printing an Ada array that has repeated equal
values,
              the indexes are incorrectly computed and displayed.
  Workaround: use the "print" contextual menu to see the value of the
item. - Dereferencing variable sometimes fails in C mode
  Problem:    When dereferencing a variable in the data window whose
name
              already contains a dereference but no parentheses around
              (e.g *foo instead of (*foo)), gvd does not properly
dereference
              fields contained inside such expression.
  Workaround: Put parentheses around the original expression. -
Switching files sometimes generates a Constraint_Error
  Problem:    From time to time, when you switch to a file whose
number of
              lines is smaller than the line currently highlighted in
the
              source editor, a Constraint_Error was raised.
  Workaround: In the preferences, deactive the "Highlight current
line" button. - Selecting a non-existent file in Open Source generates
a bug box
  Problem:    When entering a non-existent file in the File->Open
Source
              dialog, GVD generates a bug box.
  Workaround: The bug box can be ignored. - Incorrect log-level causes
a Constraint_Error.
  Problem:    Invoking GVD with a log level outside of the [0-4] range
              causes a Constraint_Error.
  Workaround: Use a correct log level :-). - Load a module on the
debugger console does not update the explorer
  Problem:    When using the load or file command in the debugger
console
              window, the source explorer is not updated.
Workaround: Either load using the File->Open Program... menu, or use
the
              "Reload Sources" in the explorer contextual menu. -
Displaying list of tasks on a non running program.
  Problem:    Opening the menu Data->Tasks... will generate a bug box
when the
              program being debugged has not been started or is
terminated.   Workaround: Close the task window when the program is
not running. - [8715-002] Explorer does not handle files starting with
no comment/blank line
  Problem:    GVD will generate a bug box when trying to open in the
explorer
              window a package that starts with no blank or comment
line.   Workaround: Add a comment or blank line at the beginning of
the package. - Parsing Ada exported variables in C
  Problem:    GVD will generate a bug box when trying to display in C
mode
              a variable declared in Ada.   Workaround: Set the
language to Ada before displaying the variable. - Parsing
unconstrained Ada arrays
  Problem:    Some arrays are incorrectly displayed by GVD, and all
the items
              appear to have an index equal to 0.   Workaround: Try to
display a slice of the array ("graph display A(2..5)") - Display the
manual with no open debugger
  Problem:    It isn't possible to display the GVD manual (from the
menu
              Help->Manual) when no debugger is currently open.
Workaround: Open a new debugger with the menu Files->Open Debugger -
Parsing C++ classes with virtual methods
  Problem:    When a class defines virtual methods, it has an extra
invisible
              fields that breaks the display in the canvas.
Workaround: Use the tooltips to examine the class - Parsing C++
classes with no field
  Problem:    Gvd isn't able to correctly parse C++ classes that do
not define
              any new field, but only methods.   Workaround: Use the
tooltips to examine the class Known Problems fixed in GVD 1.1.0 -
Tooltips are not always shown.
  Problem:    When starting the debugged program using the debugger
console
              window (by e.g typing "run"), the tooltips are not
activated.   Workaround: Use the "Run" or "Start" buttons instead of
using the console
              window. - Dereferencing Ada string parameters
  Problem:    When trying to display/dereference the value of a string
              parameter or of a string access in the canvas, this
creates a
              self-pointing link to the value, and it is not possible
to see
              the value of the string.   Workaround: Disable alias
detection in the canvas, or display parameter.all
              explicitely. - [8524-010] Refresh problem in the canvas
on NT
  Problem:    When big items are moved in the canvas on NT, there
appears some
              black areas which are incorrectly refreshed.
Workaround: Force a refresh of the canvas, by iconizing the GVD window
and
              de-iconizing it afterwards. - ASM view does not work
properly
  Problem:    When switching the source editor to Asm only mode, GVD
generates
              error messages on standard output and does not handle
properly
              the windows when switching back to Source mode.
Workaround: Use the Asm+Source mode instead. - [8524-008] Cannot call
the editor under NT
  Problem:    When using the File->Edit Current Source menu under NT,
GVD
              launches the external editor using forward slashes
instead of
              backslashes.   Workaround: Use an editor that
understands forward slashes. - Loading a non existant executable
generates a bug box
  Problem:    When using the File->Open Program... menu and specifying
              a non existant file, GVD generates a bug box instead of
              reporting the error in the status bar.   Workaround: The
error can safely be ignored. - Wrong command line "--log-level" not
handled properly
  Problem:    When specifying the --log-level option with no
parameter,
              GVD generates a bug box instead of displaying the help
              text.   Workaround: Use proper syntax for --log-level
argument. - Support for CR characters on Unix systems
  Problem:    GVD can not correctly detect whether a file contains CR
              characters unless it is on a Windows system. This
results in the
              current line being incorrectly highlighted in the source
              editor.   Workaround: Strip the CR characters from the
files before using them. - [8531-006] --no-explorer option generates a
bug box
  Problem:    When using the --no-explorer command line option, GVD
generates
              an assert failure.   Workaround: Do not use the
--no-explorer option, or create a file
              $HOME/.gvd/preferences containing the following lines:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
              <preferences>
                <Display_Explorer>FALSE</Display_Explorer>
              </preferences> - Parsing of unsigned char variables.
  Problem:    When trying to display an unsigned char, GVD recurses
infinitely.
  Workaround: Use the tooltips or the command window to display such
variables. - [8511-011] Parsing of Ada variant records with null part.
  Attach command in the debugger window does not start gvd properly
  Problem:    When typing the attach, load or add-symbol-file command
in the
              debugger window, some functionalities like 'Display
Files in
              Shared Libraries' are not enabled.   Workaround: Use the
menus instead, or click on the run button. - Parsing of char* fields
in C structs
  Problem:    The value of string fields in C structures is
incorrectly parsed,
              and extended till the end of the line. As a result, the
following
              fields are empty.   Workaround: The value of the
following fields is still visible, but not at
              the correct location. - Parsing of array fields in C
structs
  Problem:    Fields that are arrays of simple types (int, double,...)
are
              incorrectly detected.   Workaround: Look at the value of
the variable directly in the source window
              through the tooltips. - Current line highlighted with an
offset
  Problem:    If the previous current line contained some tabs, then
the next
              one is highlighted with an offset.   Workaround: Force a
redisplay of the source window (hide line numbers). - Wrong handling
of double in C structs.
  Problem:    When trying to display a C structure containing a
double, GVD
              recurses infinitely, causing a stack overflow.
Workaround: Print such variables in the debugger window instead. -
Incorrect highlighting of ex-current line
  Problem:    When the current line (with green background) changes,
the
              previous one is incorrectly syntax-highlighted (comments
are
              still in black).   Workaround: Force a redisplay of the
source window (for instance hide line
              numbers and display them again) - Opening the
preferences dialog multiple times
  Problem:    If the preferences dialog is closed with the title bar's
X
              button, it isn't possible to reopen it afterwards.
Workaround: Close the dialog with the Cancel button - [8327-010] NT
directory separators not handled properly in the command line.
  Problem:    When specifying an executable on the command line that
contains
              backslashes under NT, GVD does not handle it properly.
Workaround: Replace blackslashes by slashes, or use the menu File/Open
              Program instead. - [8327-009] Highlighting misspelled in
the Preferences dialog
  Problem:    Color Highlighting is mispelled in the preferences
dialog.   Workaround: None, this is a minor inconvenience with no
consequences. - Command line arguments --version and --help do not
work under Windows.
  Problem:    When using the --version or --help command line option
under
              windows systems, gvd starts and nothing happens.
Workaround: No work around, either ignore this minor problem or use
1.0.2 Known Problems fixed in GVD 1.0.1 - Start with arguments
  Problem:    When starting a program with non null arguments, gvd
only
              sets the arguments and does not actually start the
program.   Workaround: Set the arguments first, and then start the
application - Attaching to a process
  Problem:    When trying to attach using the File/Attach menu, GVD
fails
              to attach to the process.   Workaround: Attach by hand
by using the attach command in the debugger window. - Call stack not
displayed after an attach
  Problem:    When trying to attach using the File/Attach menu, GVD
fails
              to display the current call stack.   Workaround: Either
switch from one debugger to another, and back to the
              first one will force redisplay of the call stack. Any
execution
              command (step, next, ...) will also trigger the call
stack
              display. - Task window does not display the last task
name properly
  Problem:    The last task name in the task window is truncated by
one
              character.   Workaround: This is a small cosmetic
problem that does not require any work
              around. - Closing the attach process window would
generate a bug box
  Problem:    When closing the attach process window using the close
icon of
              the window manager, GVD generates a bug box instead of
              silently closing the window.   Workaround: Use the close
button instead. - File/Edit Source is silently ignored
  Problem:    When using the File/Edit Source menu, nothing happens.
Workaround: Set the environment variable GVD_EDITOR (e.g
              "xterm -e /bin/vi %f +%l") before launching gvd. -
Problem in the memory view address handling
  Problem:    In the memory view, when specifying some array variables
whose
              bounds are unknown to gdb in the Address area, gvd
hangs.   Workaround: Do not try to display memory associated to arrays
with non
              static bounds. - Special characters not properly handled
in file and directory names
  Problem:    GVD does not handle files containing special characters
such as
              '!' or ' '.   Workaround: Avoid using these characters,
by e.g using links. - Adding a breakpoint in the Breakpoint window
would generate a bug box
  Problem:    When clicking on the Add button in the edit breakpoint
window,
              gvd generates a Constraint_Error turned into a bug box.
Workaround: Set breakpoints using the source code window or the
debugger
              window instead. - Incorrect highlighting with TAB
characters in comments
  Problem:    Highlighting is incorrect for files containing tab
characters
              inside comments.   Workaround: Ignore the highlighting,
or remove tabs from comments. - Under Windows NT/2000, GVD would crash
on directory selection
  Problem:    When using the "File/Change Directory" menu item under
NT/2000,
              GVD generates a bug box.   Workaround: Type the
directory name explicitely without any pending
              slash/backslashes or use the "cd" command in the
debugger window.

Re: GVD bug list. Perhaps a better language is not enough....

[Emmanuel Briot]

raj <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes:
> Here is the GVD bug list. Perhaps a better language is not enough....
> 
> 
> 
> http://libre.act-europe.fr/gvd/known-problems


Sorry to disappoint you, but what you posted in not the list of bugs in
GVD. This is the list of *fixed* bugs since the beginning of the project (ie
including alpha and beta versions...).
Note also that in almost all cases there is a suggested workaround, so most
of them do not even prevent you from using GVD...

I would consider the total number rather low for a project that has been
ported to so many platforms, including embedded platforms, and that supports
various languages. Some of the bugs are actually gdb bugs that we have
worked around.

Re: is ada dead?

[Stefan Skoglund]

Jerry Petrey wrote:
> 
> You mean you need a debugger with Ada? :-)
> 

You need a debugger if you work with C or C++.
I debug c programs with gvd...

Re: is ada dead?

[Stefan Skoglund]

"Bobby D. Bryant" wrote:
> You don't even need a CS degree.  I formerly worked at a big company
> that tried moving people into IT to keep from having to lay them off
> while hiring new IT staff at the same time.  What was immediately
> visible to me (if not to management) is that almost anyone can "learn" a

Televerket (the swedish state-owned telephone company) did that
stunt in 1994 i think. They were changing switching technology at
that time.

They took network engineers and/or network techs and retrained them as 
system analysts, system programmers and other IT functions.

Result: they got a force of very effective and experienced people with a 
strong belief in the company.

Re: is ada dead?

[Lao Xiao Hai]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:

> Yes, Java has its problems, threading model is one of them. I made an attempt
> to use Ada (JGNAT strictly speaking) to write selected modules. Unfortunately, the
> cost of support was prohibitive. I am ready to pay for support, but the cost must
> be in sync with the rest of industry.

This is a long-standing issue with Ada.   When the language was mandated by the
DoD, lots of compiler publishers rushed to the trough, eager to feed on government
pork.   Because they thought they had the DoD as a captive customer, they charged
exorbitant prices for their compiler and tool products.   One could make the case that
it was the compiler publishers, particularly some of the most prominent of them, who
were most culpable in the failure of Ada to ride the wave of democratization of
programming that emerged during the 1980's.

A few compiler publishers tried to break that pattern, among them RR Software and
Meridian.   Alsys never did get it.    Rational never got it.    Aonix, the child of
Alsys, finally caught on, but possibly too late.    Currently, the salvation of Ada
seems to lie in the availability of GNAT products and the associated FSF movement.
Still, support is expensive, regardless of where you seek it.   I think the surviving
compiler publishers are doing a better job of recognizing the need for pricing their
products and services more orthogonally to the marketplace, but we still have a
long way to go.

The question that triggered this thread has to do with the viability of Ada.   Recently,
I have encountered academics who believe there is no point in teaching Ada anymore
since it is, if not dead, irrelevant.   One even told me it would be impossible to buy
an Ada compiler in five years.    Wrongheaded as that opinion may be, it is more
widespread than I would like.    One of my students works for a large defense
contractor with products written in Ada.    He tells me his job is to "rip out all of
that Ada code and replace it with C++."   As stupid as that decision might be, it is
a reality we must acknowledge.

We also have to do a better job of countering minsinformation.   Among the idiotic
things I have heard recently.   "Boeing is going to convert the B777 avionics code
to C++."   "The FAA has abandoned Ada.  It no longer plans to do any new development
in Ada."   "The transition to Ada 95 is too expensive.  We plan to convert our code
to C++."    "There are no development tools for Ada.  We are going to use C++ and
Java."    Oh, and this one is still around.  "Ada is too expensive.  The cost/benefit of
Ada is not offset by Ada's being a better language.   We can build software just as
well and for less money than it would cost to use Ada."

While I believe that all those statements are dead wrong,  some people at major defense
contractors making software tool decisions, or who influence those decisions, actually
believe this stuff.  Yes, it is true that some of them are making the decision without
understanding the real issues related to the brittleness of C++, but that does not change
the fact they are making the decision.   The only heartening thing is that, once they
understand just how horrid C++ is, some have revisited that decision and have given
consideration to the benefits of Ada.   Perhaps they must come to a realization that
the grass really isn't greener after all.   Perhaps, once they are really knowledgeable
about the issues of C++ versus Ada they will overcome their own biases and make
the right choice.   Perhaps pigs will grow wings and fly.

Ada is not dead.  We have clients who are committed to it and continue to recognize
its benefits.   ACT, DDC-I, ICC, Aonix, RR Software, OCS, and Rational, continue
to get contracts for new Ada projects from new clients who understand Ada.   Those
of us with a commercial interest in the success of Ada have a responsibility to ensure
that those projects are successful, that they are economically on sound footing, and
that the customer is not left out to dry on important issues such as tools (debuggers, etc.),
support, and training.   If we continue to provide quality, Ada can survive, revive, and
grow into a viable alternative to the junk that has become so prevalent in the popular
software development industry.

Richard Riehle

Re: is ada dead?

[Marin David Condic]

One of the things that would go a long way to countering the misinformation
and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price. Part
of the problem is visibility and part of the problem is the (IMHO, very
sound) argument that by picking C++ or Java or some other language, a
businessman can leverage all the stuff that comes with its toolkit (GUI
builders, debuggers, library tools, class libraries, etc.) to get to market
quicker than can be done with Ada.

Ada has historically concentrated on reducing lifecycle costs, which is a
real advantage. However, a very large chunk of the market doesn't care about
the lifecycle. They care about time to market. Right or wrong, that's what
people are buying. Ada has to sell that or it will remain "irrelavent" in
terms of the bulk market.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Lao Xiao Hai" <laoxhai@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3B51DD8A.9FBCA84F@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> We also have to do a better job of countering minsinformation.   Among the
idiotic
> things I have heard recently.   "Boeing is going to convert the B777
avionics code
> to C++."   "The FAA has abandoned Ada.  It no longer plans to do any new
development
> in Ada."   "The transition to Ada 95 is too expensive.  We plan to convert
our code
> to C++."    "There are no development tools for Ada.  We are going to use
C++ and
> Java."    Oh, and this one is still around.  "Ada is too expensive.  The
cost/benefit of
> Ada is not offset by Ada's being a better language.   We can build
software just as
> well and for less money than it would cost to use Ada."
>

Re: is ada dead?

[Mark Lundquist]

"Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> wrote in
message news:9iv1pd$3va$1@nh.pace.co.uk...
> One of the things that would go a long way to countering the
misinformation
> and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
> inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
> environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price.

I agree.

I've always been impressed with what Borland did with Delphi -- how they
avoided the "P-word" :-) and created the brand independent of the language.
Rather than focus attention on the language at a time when Pascal was no
longer fashionable, it draws attention to the value added by the Delphi
environment, tools and libraries.  So Delphi developers actually do think of
themselves as "developing in Delphi" not "in Object Pascal".

Would that work today for Ada?  Who knows... but I'm intrigued... :-)

> Part
> of the problem is visibility and part of the problem is the (IMHO, very
> sound) argument that by picking C++ or Java or some other language, a
> businessman can leverage all the stuff that comes with its toolkit (GUI
> builders, debuggers, library tools, class libraries, etc.) to get to
market
> quicker than can be done with Ada.
>
> Ada has historically concentrated on reducing lifecycle costs, which is a
> real advantage. However, a very large chunk of the market doesn't care
about
> the lifecycle. They care about time to market. Right or wrong, that's what
> people are buying

Lead-time considerations will tend to dominate over lifecycle considerations
under certain conditions, such as (off the top of my head):
        * In a new technology, where time to market translates into lead
time ("first-mover advantage");
        * In markets where the pace of change and/or innovation is high
enough that product life-expectancy is short (everything becomes obsolete in
a short time).
        * When you're not doing any reuse.

It also dominates if the market is full of thinkalike lemmings :-) who take
up the mantra of "time to market" uncritically.  It's too easy to believe
that "time to market is everything" when everybody else is saying that
too... in our business culture, nobody ever gets blamed for running with the
crowd, so if you never take the time to stop and ask, "Do we want to make
stuff that will be obsolete in a year?  Do we really have to?  What would
happen if we didn't?  What would it require to do it differently"?
One problem is that the success stories naturally get the attention, and it
turns out that most of them had first-mover advantage.  But what about the
flops?  How many of them had this advantage and flopped anyway?  We'll never
know because nobody is interested in the flops!  So first-mover advantage is
seen almost as sufficient for success, when maybe it is only necessary, and
in the long run maybe not even that.

But I think the opportunity for Ada is to position itself as the technology
that is most effective over the lifecycle, and that not at the cost of
lead-time!  For this, we need all the things you mentioned in your post...

-- Mark

Re: is ada dead?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <9iv1pd$3va$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes:
> One of the things that would go a long way to countering the misinformation
> and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
> inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
> environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price.

But there is not one C compiler, there are many.

That brings up another problem Ada faces, a lack of competition.
Advocates are happy just to get one compiler for an environment,
but there is never the competition that gets one vendor trying to
outdo the other in features desired by the customer base.

I believe that is also a shortcoming of Freeware, GPL, etc.
Supporters are inclined to rally around the (single) flag
than try to do something with broader appeal to the public.

Re: is ada dead?

[Marin David Condic]

Note that I did use the plural - "C++ environmentSSSSSS" :-)

As for competition - if there is a significant market there, competitors
will get into the game. The problem right now is that Ada has such a
(relatively) small share of the market, that nobody wants to go fighting
over the scraps. I'd bet that if some vendor offered an Ada kit that started
to sell over a million copies, you'd see Bill Gates "embracing and
extending" it real fast. Right now though, the Ada vendors are maybe
managing to make a living, but nobody wants to compete in a market like
that - they want to go for "The Big Score".

Maybe this is why we Ada-philes feel lucky to have even one vendor around
supporting our favorite platform. If our ranks grew, we'd have more leverage
and could start demanding more.

As for the GPL thing - I think we could fix that real fast if we actually
got the ADCL concept off the ground. We'd probably find *LOTS* of developers
who would gladly put their code out for freely available access if they
thought there was a chance that down the road somewhere, they might make a
buck off of it. Right now with the GPL, you basically get nothing for your
contribution, except possibly the ability to earn a buck as a consultant on
something you are intimately familiar with because you wrote it and the nice
warm fuzzy feeling you get watching Red Hat clean up by selling the code you
wrote.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message
news:2$l9ZPZiDd4x@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> In article <9iv1pd$3va$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic"
<marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes:
> > One of the things that would go a long way to countering the
misinformation
> > and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
> > inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
> > environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price.
>
> But there is not one C compiler, there are many.
>
> That brings up another problem Ada faces, a lack of competition.
> Advocates are happy just to get one compiler for an environment,
> but there is never the competition that gets one vendor trying to
> outdo the other in features desired by the customer base.
>
> I believe that is also a shortcoming of Freeware, GPL, etc.
> Supporters are inclined to rally around the (single) flag
> than try to do something with broader appeal to the public.

Re: is ada dead?

[Mark Lundquist]

"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message
news:2$l9ZPZiDd4x@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> In article <9iv1pd$3va$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic"
<marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes:
> > One of the things that would go a long way to countering the
misinformation
> > and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
> > inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
> > environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price.
>
> But there is not one C compiler, there are many.
>
> That brings up another problem Ada faces, a lack of competition.

Hmmm....

Exclude for the time being the niche players in the C market, e.g. compilers
targeting microcontrollers, vectorizing compilers etc...

For the broad market, virtually every C compiler supplier is a platform
vendor.

So while there are many C compilers, there are no C compiler companies.  So
do these compilers really compete against each other?  How many platform
adoption decisions are driven by competetive factors relating to C
compilers?  None!  And I'll bet that even extends to IDE factors, e.g. when
Windows is chosen over Unix or MacOS, Visual Studio is *not* part of the
reason (even if VS is really great -- I'm not saying this is because it's
bad).

So I would argue that if lack of competition is an issue, comparisons with
the C market don't illustrate it...

Also, someday there really may be just one C compiler! :-)  It's possible
that the platform vendors will all switch to gcc as their "next generation"
compilers.  (Of course this is subject to the broader question of whether
the platform builders will move future OS investment to Linux, since ISV
support for 3rd-tier OS's has dried up.  A platform vendor cannot survive
without an application base).

> Advocates are happy just to get one compiler for an environment,
> but there is never the competition that gets one vendor trying to
> outdo the other in features desired by the customer base.
>

No, but if there were a single Ada supplier, if they were giving me what I
want I'd be happy whether or not they were motivated to outdo another Ada
vendor...  Of course the motivation has to come from competition against
something, and in this case that something is all the other languages!  That
is, even a single supplier has to be responsive to the market, unless it is
a captive market.  A single Ada vendor will die if they blow off their
customers/prospects, just as surely as will a vendor operating in a more
obviously "competetive" market.  If they don't want to die, they'll continue
to be innovative and responsive.

> I believe that is also a shortcoming of Freeware, GPL, etc.
> Supporters are inclined to rally around the (single) flag
> than try to do something with broader appeal to the public.

I'd argue that that in the open source space, incremental improvements are
rightly seen to be more cost-effective as subjects of "incorporation" rather
than "differentiation".

-- Mark

Re: is ada dead?

[Gary Scott]

Hi, several of the Fortran 95 vendors include multiple compilers within
their distribution.  So you get a Fortran 77, Fortran 95, and a C++
compiler all for the price of one, all interoperable, all using the same
IDE.  Would that help?

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> Note that I did use the plural - "C++ environmentSSSSSS" :-)
> 
> As for competition - if there is a significant market there, competitors
> will get into the game. The problem right now is that Ada has such a
> (relatively) small share of the market, that nobody wants to go fighting
> over the scraps. I'd bet that if some vendor offered an Ada kit that started
> to sell over a million copies, you'd see Bill Gates "embracing and
> extending" it real fast. Right now though, the Ada vendors are maybe
> managing to make a living, but nobody wants to compete in a market like
> that - they want to go for "The Big Score".
> 
> Maybe this is why we Ada-philes feel lucky to have even one vendor around
> supporting our favorite platform. If our ranks grew, we'd have more leverage
> and could start demanding more.
> 
> As for the GPL thing - I think we could fix that real fast if we actually
> got the ADCL concept off the ground. We'd probably find *LOTS* of developers
> who would gladly put their code out for freely available access if they
> thought there was a chance that down the road somewhere, they might make a
> buck off of it. Right now with the GPL, you basically get nothing for your
> contribution, except possibly the ability to earn a buck as a consultant on
> something you are intimately familiar with because you wrote it and the nice
> warm fuzzy feeling you get watching Red Hat clean up by selling the code you
> wrote.
> 
> MDC
> --
> Marin David Condic
> Senior Software Engineer
> Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
> Enabling the digital revolution
> e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
> Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/
> 
> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam> wrote in message
> news:2$l9ZPZiDd4x@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> > In article <9iv1pd$3va$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, "Marin David Condic"
> <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes:
> > > One of the things that would go a long way to countering the
> misinformation
> > > and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
> > > inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
> > > environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price.
> >
> > But there is not one C compiler, there are many.
> >
> > That brings up another problem Ada faces, a lack of competition.
> > Advocates are happy just to get one compiler for an environment,
> > but there is never the competition that gets one vendor trying to
> > outdo the other in features desired by the customer base.
> >
> > I believe that is also a shortcoming of Freeware, GPL, etc.
> > Supporters are inclined to rally around the (single) flag
> > than try to do something with broader appeal to the public.

Re: is ada dead?

[Michal Nowak]

On 01-07-15, at 11:14, Lao Xiao Hai  wrote:

>The question that triggered this thread has to do with the viability of Ada.   Recently,
>I have encountered academics who believe there is no point in teaching Ada anymore
>since it is, if not dead, irrelevant.   One even told me it would be impossible to buy
>an Ada compiler in five years.    Wrongheaded as that opinion may be, it is more
>widespread than I would like.    One of my students works for a large defense
>contractor with products written in Ada.    He tells me his job is to "rip out all of
>that Ada code and replace it with C++."   As stupid as that decision might be, it is
>a reality we must acknowledge.
>
>We also have to do a better job of countering minsinformation.   Among the idiotic
>things I have heard recently.   "Boeing is going to convert the B777 avionics code
>to C++."   "The FAA has abandoned Ada.  It no longer plans to do any new development
>in Ada."   "The transition to Ada 95 is too expensive.  We plan to convert our code
>to C++."    "There are no development tools for Ada.  We are going to use C++ and
>Java."    Oh, and this one is still around.  "Ada is too expensive.  The cost/benefit of
>Ada is not offset by Ada's being a better language.   We can build software just as
>well and for less money than it would cost to use Ada."

...Sounds bad, very bad. I got mixed feeling. Some letters were so optimistic, this
one makes opposite thoughts.
Dark vision of future? One-language tendency world? Java - queen, C++/C# - king?
Is this direction the world is heading for?
News like this one can clip you wings. I don't want it became true. And if I say I know
Ada, during applying for a job, I don't want to get response: "Sorry, we need Java
programmers, whole world writes in Java, we must follow the trend".
I see this tendedency in my country, and it arises.
I still hope there is better world outside...

-Mike


------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: is ada dead?

[tmoran]

>   * In a new technology, where time to market translates into lead
> time ("first-mover advantage");
  "First-mover advantage" is more perception than reality.  Lots of
introducer companies have wilted, while the follower that "does it up
right" blooms.  Univac-IBM, Visicalc-Lotus, Macintosh-Windows,
Netscape-Microsoft etc
  One thing dragging down software first-movers is that they tend all
too soon to have a buggy, un-maintainable, un-extendable, pile of hacks,
while the second-mover can see what features the market has asked
for and can actually design a clean system to supply them.

Re: is ada dead?

[Bertrand Augereau]

> "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> wrote in
> message news:9iv1pd$3va$1@nh.pace.co.uk...
> > One of the things that would go a long way to countering the
> misinformation
> > and overcoming the objections about tools, etc, would be to have an
> > inexpensive development toolkit sitting on the shelf next to the C++
> > environments with equivalent & better features at a competitive price.
>
> I agree.
>
> I've always been impressed with what Borland did with Delphi -- how they
> avoided the "P-word" :-) and created the brand independent of the
language.
> Rather than focus attention on the language at a time when Pascal was no
> longer fashionable, it draws attention to the value added by the Delphi
> environment, tools and libraries.  So Delphi developers actually do think
of
> themselves as "developing in Delphi" not "in Object Pascal".
>
> Would that work today for Ada?  Who knows... but I'm intrigued... :-)

Ever used Oracle PL/SQL?