* Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? @ 2010-05-20 12:53 Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis ` (5 more replies) 0 siblings, 6 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) I'm new to Ada, but not to programming in general. Decided to learn a new language, and Ada was of interest to me. Am enjoying the language so far - using GNAT GPL nad Coronado's old tutorial. Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis 2010-05-20 15:05 ` Pascal Obry ` (3 more replies) 2010-05-20 15:33 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 4 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Alex Mentis @ 2010-05-20 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 20, 8:53 am, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: > I'm new to Ada, but not to programming in general. Decided to learn a new > language, and Ada was of interest to me. Am enjoying the language so far - > using GNAT GPL nad Coronado's old tutorial. > > Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does > it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. > -- > Duke > *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** There are others who will be more qualified to answer this than me, but annecdotally it sounds to me like Ada has a wider base in Europe right now than in the US. The language is good for embedded, real-time, and safety-critical software where high reliability is required. It is often used in the space and aviation industries for these reasons. Some like Ada as a teaching language. A lot of its syntax is Pascal- like. A frequently-cited weakness in the academic area is that there are not a lot of people developing packages for Ada that students can use to achieve a high level of functionality for a low cost (in time) of learning. Students tend to be able to do much more advanced (graphics, networking, etc.) projects more quickly with languages that have more libraries and community support than Ada currently offers. Alex ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis @ 2010-05-20 15:05 ` Pascal Obry 2010-05-20 15:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 15:30 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2010-05-20 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Alex, > A frequently-cited weakness in the academic area is that there are not > a lot > of people developing packages for Ada that students can use to achieve > a > high level of functionality for a low cost (in time) of learning. > Students > tend to be able to do much more advanced (graphics, networking, etc.) > projects more quickly with languages that have more libraries and > community > support than Ada currently offers. This is the exact opposite of what a professor reported here on comp.lang.ada some time ago. Despites that Java offers lot of libraries not a single student was able to finish properly the yearly project where Ada student used to almost all finish the project. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net - http://v2p.fr.eu.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 15:05 ` Pascal Obry @ 2010-05-20 15:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 17:05:36 +0200, Pascal Obry <pascal@obry.net> a écrit: > comp.lang.ada some time ago. Despites that Java offers lot of libraries > not a single student was able to finish properly the yearly project > where Ada student used to almost all finish the project. ... and with less errors (I remember a report, but not the url, sorry) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis 2010-05-20 15:05 ` Pascal Obry @ 2010-05-20 15:30 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 5:09 ` Randy Brukardt 2010-05-20 19:06 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 1:08 ` tmoran 3 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 15:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 15:59:03 +0200, Alex Mentis <asmentis@gmail.com> a écrit: > A frequently-cited weakness in the academic area is that there are not > a lot > of people developing packages for Ada that students can use to achieve > a > high level of functionality for a low cost (in time) of learning. > Students I remember Jean-Pierre Rosen, telling how some people think there is not library available in Ada for this and that. He explained most of of times, people was surprised when he gave them a link to the material they were seeking for. Here is a list of bindings which may be of interest (I'm not using this material myself, so cannot tell more): http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 15:30 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:36 ` Manuel Gomez ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-21 5:09 ` Randy Brukardt 1 sibling, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Thu, 20 May 2010 15:59:03 +0200, Alex Mentis <asmentis@gmail.com> a > �crit: >> A frequently-cited weakness in the academic area is that there are not >> a lot >> of people developing packages for Ada that students can use to achieve >> a >> high level of functionality for a low cost (in time) of learning. >> Students > I remember Jean-Pierre Rosen, telling how some people think there is not > library available in Ada for this and that. He explained most of of times, > people was surprised when he gave them a link to the material they were > seeking for. > > Here is a list of bindings which may be of interest (I'm not using this > material myself, so cannot tell more): > http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html > That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources needed to make Ada shine! ;) -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 19:36 ` Manuel Gomez 2010-05-20 19:53 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Manuel Gomez @ 2010-05-20 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw) On 20 mayo, 20:58, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: > > Here is a list of bindings which may be of interest (I'm not using this > > material myself, so cannot tell more): > >http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html > > That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! > > Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob > students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources needed > to make Ada shine! ;) Start at these websites, they contain much more updated information thanks to the Ada community: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming http://adacommons.org/Main_Page http://wiki.ada-dk.org/index.php/Main_Page ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:36 ` Manuel Gomez @ 2010-05-20 19:53 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Manuel Gomez <mgrojo@gmail.com> wrote: > On 20 mayo, 20:58, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: >> > Here is a list of bindings which may be of interest (I'm not using this � >> > material myself, so cannot tell more): >> >http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html >> >> That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! >> >> Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob >> students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources needed >> to make Ada shine! ;) > > Start at these websites, they contain much more updated information > thanks to the Ada community: > > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming > http://adacommons.org/Main_Page > http://wiki.ada-dk.org/index.php/Main_Page Muchas gracias... -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:36 ` Manuel Gomez @ 2010-05-20 21:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 20:58:01 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! > > Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob > students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources > needed > to make Ada shine! ;) Sorry, this was in my bookmarks (some are old, indeed) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:36 ` Manuel Gomez 2010-05-20 21:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 23:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (3 more replies) 2 siblings, 4 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Gautier write-only @ 2010-05-20 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 20, 8:58 pm, Duke Normandin wrote: > >http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html > > That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! > > Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob > students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources needed > to make Ada shine! ;) That's exactly the problem with web homes: they need lots of maintenance. Once the time for it is gone, they become ghost homes - to begin with dead links... I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" at different stage of abandon... The wiki's Manuel is citing are in a better shape because of a better concept. Other good places to chase resources are also non Ada-centric sites: http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/?&fq[]=trove%3A163 http://freshmeat.net/tags/ada ? G. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only @ 2010-05-20 23:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 14:07 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 0:30 ` Marc A. Criley ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 23:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 21 May 2010 01:17:45 +0200, Gautier write-only <gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> a écrit: > I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" > at different stage of abandon... If he is really new to Ada, not sure he will understand this sentence, hihihi. One Minute Silence ... ..... Rest in peace AdaHome, We will all miss you for eternity “So say we all!” -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 23:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 14:07 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Fri, 21 May 2010 01:17:45 +0200, Gautier write-only ><gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> a �crit: >> I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" >> at different stage of abandon... > If he is really new to Ada, not sure he will understand this sentence, > hihihi. > > One Minute Silence > > ... > > ..... > > Rest in peace AdaHome, > We will all miss you for eternity > ?So say we all!? > Well, _I am_ new to Ada, and have no clue what you guys mean with this "Ada Homes" thing. I bet its a good story though... ;) -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 23:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 0:30 ` Marc A. Criley 2010-05-21 2:17 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 5:18 ` Randy Brukardt 2010-05-21 16:01 ` Duke Normandin 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Marc A. Criley @ 2010-05-21 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On 05/20/2010 06:17 PM, Gautier write-only wrote: > Other good places to chase resources are also non Ada-centric sites: > > http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/?&fq[]=trove%3A163 > http://freshmeat.net/tags/ada While not so much an explicit *resource* site, the Ada sub-reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/ada) contains links to articles, discussions, software libraries, projects, and is just a potpourri of Ada goodness. Just start paging back through the submissions... Submissions are welcome from any and all Ada fans. Marc A. Criley Moderator, Ada Sub-reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/ada ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 0:30 ` Marc A. Criley @ 2010-05-21 2:17 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 20:34 ` Marc A. Criley 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 2:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 21 May 2010 02:30:52 +0200, Marc A. Criley <mcNOSPAM@mckae.com> a écrit: > While not so much an explicit *resource* site, the Ada sub-reddit > (http://www.reddit.com/r/ada) contains links to articles, discussions, > software libraries, projects, and is just a potpourri of Ada goodness. > Just start paging back through the submissions... > > Submissions are welcome from any and all Ada fans. Please, Welcome for any kind of project or is it restricted to GPL project ? I keep this in my bookmarks, perhaps this may be useful in the futur (well, to me, I guess it is already useful for many people). Also, is it english only or is there some provision to inform about articles in french ? Thanks for the tip -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 2:17 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 20:34 ` Marc A. Criley 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Marc A. Criley @ 2010-05-21 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw) On 05/20/2010 09:17 PM, Yannick Duchï¿œne (Hibou57) wrote: > Please, Welcome for any kind of project or is it restricted to GPL > project ? > I keep this in my bookmarks, perhaps this may be useful in the futur > (well, to me, I guess it is already useful for many people). > Also, is it english only or is there some provision to inform about > articles in french ? > Thanks for the tip There's no limitations about what gets posted, so long as it is about Ada. Proprietary, open source, commercial, hobby, etc. does not matter, the Ada sub-reddit is simply for any items of interest to Ada advocates and practitioners. One can submit non-English postings to it, although one is free to create their own sub-reddit on whatever subject, or using whatever lingua franca, they wish. Marc A. Criley Moderation, Ada Sub-reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/ada ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 23:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 0:30 ` Marc A. Criley @ 2010-05-21 5:18 ` Randy Brukardt 2010-05-22 14:54 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-21 16:01 ` Duke Normandin 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2010-05-21 5:18 UTC (permalink / raw) "Gautier write-only" <gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:20261ff7-36bd-483e-9d79-af3ab44e2c7f@q13g2000vbm.googlegroups.com... >That's exactly the problem with web homes: they need lots of >maintenance. >Once the time for it is gone, they become ghost homes - to begin with >dead links... >I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" >at different stage of abandon... I think there are 4 that I know of. Unless you are also including AdaIC, which is definitely not abandoned, just suffering from the lack of new material. If you know of something that ought to be linked on AdaIC, by all means send it in. And keep in mind that the archives at the AdaIC is generally ancient content that we preserved from the old government run AdaIC. Most of it is of dubious value (a few things, like the on-line Ada 83 RM, get a lot of use and still have value to some). But I don't like deleting stuff when storage is essentially free. If it has that "archives.adaic.com" address, its in the archives. Stick to www.adaic.org or www.adaic.com for modern stuff. Randy. (Webmaster of the moment for AdaIC). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 5:18 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2010-05-22 14:54 ` Gautier write-only 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Gautier write-only @ 2010-05-22 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw) > >I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" > >at different stage of abandon... Randy: > I think there are 4 that I know of. Unless you are also including AdaIC, No! > which is definitely not abandoned, just suffering from the lack of new > material. Gautier ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-21 5:18 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2010-05-21 16:01 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-22 9:57 ` Stephen Leake 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Gautier write-only <gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> wrote: > On May 20, 8:58�pm, Duke Normandin wrote: > >> >http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html >> >> That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! >> >> Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob >> students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources needed >> to make Ada shine! ;) > > That's exactly the problem with web homes: they need lots of > maintenance. Every web site worth having require maintenance... > Once the time for it is gone, they become ghost homes - to begin with > dead links... > I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" > at different stage of abandon... > The wiki's Manuel is citing are in a better shape because of a better > concept. > Other good places to chase resources are also non Ada-centric sites: Very good reason why the Ada community should encourage one "official" Home with links to various community resources - an "official" Ada "Information Booth". Thanks for the URLs! -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 16:01 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-22 9:57 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-22 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > On 2010-05-20, Gautier write-only <gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On May 20, 8:58 pm, Duke Normandin wrote: >> >>> >http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html >>> >>> That URL is not much good - all the links are dead! >>> >>> Perhaps Ada should have a _real_ home, where it is guaranteed that noob >>> students, and noob old farts like me will indeed find the resources needed >>> to make Ada shine! ;) >> >> That's exactly the problem with web homes: they need lots of >> maintenance. > > Every web site worth having require maintenance... > >> Once the time for it is gone, they become ghost homes - to begin with >> dead links... >> I could cite around 4-5 absolutely definitive enthusiastic "Ada homes" >> at different stage of abandon... >> The wiki's Manuel is citing are in a better shape because of a better >> concept. >> Other good places to chase resources are also non Ada-centric sites: > > Very good reason why the Ada community should encourage one "official" Home > with links to various community resources - an "official" Ada "Information > Booth". www.adaic.com -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 15:30 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 5:09 ` Randy Brukardt 2010-05-21 14:33 ` Duke Normandin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2010-05-21 5:09 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1300 bytes --] "Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote in message news:op.vc0f0zz8xmjfy8@garhos... >I remember Jean-Pierre Rosen, telling how some people think there is not >library available in Ada for this and that. He explained most of of times, >people was surprised when he gave them a link to the material they were >seeking for. > >Here is a list of bindings which may be of interest (I'm not using this >material myself, so cannot tell more): >http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html The archive site contains ancient web pages of dubious value. Look on the main AdaIC web site for such things, particularly in the links section: http://www.adaic.com/links/index.html in the classifications "Software Libraries" and "Development Tools". (And tell me about any broken links.) Another way to find specific Ada stuff is to use the Ada-wide search engine: http://www.adaic.com/site/wide-search.html, which attempts to search all sites with known Ada information (this corresponds to the sites linked from the AdaIC site). It uses a search engine written in Ada (of course); we crawl all of the sites at least monthly. As of the crawl completed this morning, there were 59,172 Ada-related pages in the index. Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 5:09 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2010-05-21 14:33 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, Randy Brukardt <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote: > "Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote in message > news:op.vc0f0zz8xmjfy8@garhos... >>I remember Jean-Pierre Rosen, telling how some people think there is not >>library available in Ada for this and that. He explained most of of times, >>people was surprised when he gave them a link to the material they were >>seeking for. >> >>Here is a list of bindings which may be of interest (I'm not using this >>material myself, so cannot tell more): >>http://archive.adaic.com/docs/flyers/free-bindings.html > > The archive site contains ancient web pages of dubious value. Look on the > main AdaIC web site for such things, particularly in the links section: > http://www.adaic.com/links/index.html in the classifications "Software > Libraries" and "Development Tools". (And tell me about any broken links.) > > Another way to find specific Ada stuff is to use the Ada-wide search engine: > http://www.adaic.com/site/wide-search.html, which attempts to search all > sites with known Ada information (this corresponds to the sites linked from > the AdaIC site). It uses a search engine written in Ada (of course); we > crawl all of the sites at least monthly. As of the crawl completed this > morning, there were 59,172 Ada-related pages in the index. > > Randy. > > Nice site referenced above! Followed a few links -- now I know about "Ada Home", I think? Must be the Magnus Kempe Saga? Whatever... ;) -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis 2010-05-20 15:05 ` Pascal Obry 2010-05-20 15:30 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 19:06 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:19 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 1:08 ` tmoran 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Alex Mentis <asmentis@gmail.com> wrote: > On May 20, 8:53�am, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: >> I'm new to Ada, but not to programming in general. Decided to learn a new >> language, and Ada was of interest to me. Am enjoying the language so far - >> using GNAT GPL nad Coronado's old tutorial. >> >> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does >> it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. >> -- >> Duke >> *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** > > There are others who will be more qualified to answer this than me, but > annecdotally it sounds to me like Ada has a wider base in Europe right now > than in the US. > > The language is good for embedded, real-time, and safety-critical software > where high reliability is required. It is often used in the space and > aviation industries for these reasons. > > Some like Ada as a teaching language. A lot of its syntax is Pascal- > like. A frequently-cited weakness in the academic area is that there are > not a lot of people developing packages for Ada that students can use to > achieve a high level of functionality for a low cost (in time) of > learning. Students tend to be able to do much more advanced (graphics, > networking, etc.) projects more quickly with languages that have more > libraries and community support than Ada currently offers. > > Alex That is indeed sad, given that Ada is such a mature language. These types of resources should have been freely available at Ada's home a long time ago. However, I suspect that the commercialization of Ada has, in the past, been responsible for impeding its proliferation. Same trauma suffered by many other great languages, some of whom are bordering on extinction. There still may be time for Ada? -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:06 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 21:19 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 21:06:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > That is indeed sad, given that Ada is such a mature language. These > types of > resources should have been freely available at Ada's home a long time > ago. > However, I suspect that the commercialization of Ada has, in the past, > been > responsible for impeding its proliferation. Same trauma suffered by many > other great languages, some of whom are bordering on extinction. There > still > may be time for Ada? On the other hand, people are responsible for assuming or not assuming the value of things. If some people (in fact, most of) don't want to assume the price of better, that is, may be not always free of charge, more time to spend to do and learn, or think before instead of after, then, who is responsible ? Unfortunately, the best in software, values less than a peanut to most people (not a picture, a fact). What I mean, is : not sure Ada's community is the sole responsible for what you are pointing. Many people are also. And never mind, Ada (or its successor 100 years later) will always be there for people who know its value ;) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-20 19:06 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 1:08 ` tmoran 3 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2010-05-21 1:08 UTC (permalink / raw) >The language is good for embedded, real-time, and safety-critical >software >where high reliability is required. It is often used in the space I run a TV channel with Ada. It handles downloading video files, loading from DVDs and timing shows, inserting ad-size clips, archiving old shows, scheduling (and notifying TV Guide et al), and of course playing on Comcast and UVerse. Reliability, concurrency, real-time (one second or less), catching exceptions, are important. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis @ 2010-05-20 15:33 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 17:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 14:53:35 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > I'm new to Ada, but not to programming in general. Decided to learn a new > language, and Ada was of interest to me. Am enjoying the language so far > - > using GNAT GPL nad Coronado's old tutorial. > > Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) > does > it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. Hi, welcome so, One of the most meaningful list I know to get an answer to “who is using Ada”: http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeldman/ada-project-summary.html I do not know a list for smaller projects or applications. Here is also a quick historical introduction: http://www.sigada.org/ada_95/what_is_ada.html -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis 2010-05-20 15:33 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 17:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-20 18:49 ` Gautier write-only ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-20 17:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin wrote: > > Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does > it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. Ada tends to be the language of choice for software engineers (~2% of all developers). It excels whenever correctness is important. To my mind, that is all software. -- Jeff Carter "C++ is like jamming a helicopter inside a Miata and expecting some sort of improvement." Drew Olbrich 51 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-20 17:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-20 18:49 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 19:51 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-05 8:04 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-05-20 19:24 ` Anonymous 2010-05-21 11:00 ` jonathan 5 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Gautier write-only @ 2010-05-20 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 20, 2:53 pm, Duke Normandin wrote: > Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, AFAIK it has never been widely used (so you can forget the "still"). As a language designed from scratch, it came too late to challenge established languages (among them, C). The first version was perhaps too rich to be competitive in the nascent microcomputing world - so it that sense, it was too early. But wait, we are still in 2010. Perhaps people in 2050 will ask themselves why the heck these fragile "#include", '}' and pointers-everywhere-paradigm were still in use in 2010... > and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? It is excellent in these areas, and probably in many others... _________________________________________________________ Gautier's Ada programming -- http://sf.net/users/gdemont/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 18:49 ` Gautier write-only @ 2010-05-20 19:51 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-20 21:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 8:04 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Gautier write-only <gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> wrote: > On May 20, 2:53�pm, Duke Normandin wrote: > >> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, > > AFAIK it has never been widely used (so you can forget the "still"). > As a language designed from scratch, it came too late to challenge > established languages (among them, C). The first version was perhaps > too rich to be competitive in the nascent microcomputing world - so it > that sense, it was too early. But wait, we are still in 2010. Perhaps > people in 2050 will ask themselves why the heck these fragile > "#include", '}' and pointers-everywhere-paradigm were still in use in > 2010... > >> and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? > > It is excellent in these areas, and probably in many others... So it would be fair to say that Ada is truly a "general-purpose" language? -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:51 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 21:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-20 22:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-20 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 20 May 2010 19:51:19 GMT, Duke Normandin wrote: > On 2010-05-20, Gautier write-only <gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On May 20, 2:53�pm, Duke Normandin wrote: >> >>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, >> >> AFAIK it has never been widely used (so you can forget the "still"). >> As a language designed from scratch, it came too late to challenge >> established languages (among them, C). The first version was perhaps >> too rich to be competitive in the nascent microcomputing world - so it >> that sense, it was too early. But wait, we are still in 2010. Perhaps >> people in 2050 will ask themselves why the heck these fragile >> "#include", '}' and pointers-everywhere-paradigm were still in use in >> 2010... >> >>> and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? >> >> It is excellent in these areas, and probably in many others... > > So it would be fair to say that Ada is truly a "general-purpose" language? Ada was designed as an universal-purpose language to supersede other languages (this was one of the language design goals). Most important Ada features to me: - An elaborated type system - Consistently implemented OO (*) - High level concurrency support (**) - Portable programming support (***) - Efficient code generation - Defined semantics of the language constructs - Static analysis support - Standardized ------------------------------------------ * broken in most OOPL ** low level in other concurrent languages *** in Ada you tell what you want from the compiler. I.e. your design is driven by the requirements. In other languages you have to use what the compiler offers to you, e.g. type Sensor range 1..100: (Ada) int Sensor; (C) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 21:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-20 22:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 2:41 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw) @Yannick @Dmitry Thank you for your comments and insights! Ada continues to attrack me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie ...) ;) -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 22:58 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 2:41 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-23 13:26 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-23 2:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > Ada continues to attrack me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie > ...) ;) These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what are “domain specific languages”... well, not exactly, but close. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 2:41 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-23 13:26 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 16:50 ` Bruno Le Hyaric 2010-05-23 18:32 ` (see below) 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a > �crit: >> Ada continues to attract me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie >> ...) ;) > These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what > are ?domain specific languages?... well, not exactly, but close. > Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore only good for ..... -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 13:26 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 16:50 ` Bruno Le Hyaric 2010-05-23 17:37 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 20:32 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-23 18:32 ` (see below) 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Bruno Le Hyaric @ 2010-05-23 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Can I animate the debate with one opensource examples of Ada/Spark usage from the NSA : http://www.adacore.com/home/products/sparkpro/tokeneer/ Even if I did't have the time to review the whole project, it seems to be a very good demonstration of Ada/Spark usage with code generation, formal verification with Z notation and cost effectiveness! By the way, in my opininon, any computer language is not really important, and should not be in the future... only the deep understanding of concepts manipulated throw languages are important. So, choose one procedural language, one object oriented, one functional, one formal...and so on... then learn them all! Next you have to choose the right language to answer the problem right. To finish, Ada is not bad, but I wouldn't base my professional career on it. One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software on the JSF aircraft project? Bruno. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 16:50 ` Bruno Le Hyaric @ 2010-05-23 17:37 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 20:32 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, Bruno Le Hyaric <bruno.lehyaric@gmail.com> wrote: > Can I animate the debate with one opensource examples of Ada/Spark > usage from the NSA : > http://www.adacore.com/home/products/sparkpro/tokeneer/ > > Even if I did't have the time to review the whole project, it seems to > be a very good demonstration > of Ada/Spark usage with code generation, formal verification with Z > notation and cost effectiveness! > > By the way, in my opininon, any computer language is not really > important, and should not be in the future... > only the deep understanding of concepts manipulated throw languages > are important. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | V I'm not following what you mean with this phrase? > So, choose one procedural language, one object oriented, one > functional, one formal...and so on... then learn them all! > Next you have to choose the right language to answer the problem > right. The right tool for the job, etc etc > To finish, Ada is not bad, but I wouldn't base my professional career > on it. I don't suppose that there are too many Ada shops around anymore. A bit like COBOL that way. ;) > One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software > on the JSF aircraft project? Because they're all a bunch of masochists? They're looking for a major FU down the road? Who knows? -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 16:50 ` Bruno Le Hyaric 2010-05-23 17:37 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 20:32 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-23 20:59 ` Duke Normandin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-23 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: > > One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software > on the JSF aircraft project? Money. Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. -- Jeff Carter "[I]f we should ever separate, my little plum, I want to give you one little bit of fatherly advice. ... Never give a sucker an even break." Poppy 97 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 20:32 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-23 20:59 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 9:00 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: > Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >> >> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >> on the JSF aircraft project? > > Money. > > Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money > the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of > coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. > Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. > That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. Toilet-flushing software may not matter much, but the various automated systems used in a modern transportation should be above greed's narsty reach - but apparently not. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 20:59 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 9:00 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-24 13:20 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-24 9:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>> >>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>> on the JSF aircraft project? >> >> Money. >> >> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >> > > That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for > using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed > is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools and writing good software, that's what would happen. It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the client's job to set the terms of the contract. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 9:00 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-24 13:10 ` Duke Normandin ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-24 13:20 ` Duke Normandin 1 sibling, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-24 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 24 May 2010 05:00:58 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > >> On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >>> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>>> >>>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>>> on the JSF aircraft project? >>> >>> Money. >>> >>> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >>> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >>> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >>> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >> >> That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for >> using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed >> is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. > > It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the > contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools > and writing good software, that's what would happen. > > It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the > client's job to set the terms of the contract. Nice theory, not working in practice. Imagine your baker trying making as much money as possible and you setting terms on the bread's ingredients. It is the fault of the CS unable to deliver a sound background for software engineering. Which is more shamanism than engineering. This in turn makes it impossible to impose *reasonable* regulations on what software is and how it is to be engineered. (Unreasonable regulations are plenty, of course) Meaningful regulations exist, for example, for bakers, so when you buy bread it is bread. When you buy software it can be anything. Because nobody knows for sure how to do it "right". It is "our" word against the word of c-java-dot-net-UML camp. The latter is far more vocal. So what do you expect DoD to do? -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-24 13:10 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 2:07 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-25 2:02 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-04 21:09 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-24, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 2010 05:00:58 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > >> Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: >> >>> On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >>>> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>>>> >>>>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>>>> on the JSF aircraft project? >>>> >>>> Money. >>>> >>>> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >>>> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >>>> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >>>> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >>> >>> That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for >>> using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed >>> is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. >> >> It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the >> contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools >> and writing good software, that's what would happen. >> >> It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the >> client's job to set the terms of the contract. > > Nice theory, not working in practice. Imagine your baker trying making as > much money as possible and you setting terms on the bread's ingredients. > > It is the fault of the CS unable to deliver a sound background for software > engineering. Which is more shamanism than engineering. This in turn makes > it impossible to impose *reasonable* regulations on what software is and > how it is to be engineered. (Unreasonable regulations are plenty, of > course) Meaningful regulations exist, for example, for bakers, so when you > buy bread it is bread. When you buy software it can be anything. Because > nobody knows for sure how to do it "right". It is "our" word against the > word of c-java-dot-net-UML camp. The latter is far more vocal. So what do > you expect DoD to do? > I totally agree! and putting your points into a particular perspective - it doesn't make _any_ difference to the health and welfare of this planet if the next video game to hit the shelves is buggier than hell, because it was written in whatever, taking 3 times as long to write than what it could have taken using saner tools. However the (programming) flavor-of-the-decade is set, so "industry follows suit" like good little sheep. which leads me to academia!. Some egg-head(s) get it into their skulls that this or that language is cool, so some university starts to push flavor A, at the expense of other "industry-proven" technology. CS students are exposed to this "new" sweetheart technology to the exclusion of all others, including day-to-day brainwashing. A few years after graduation, these same CS students are managers somewhere, talking to clueless bean-counters about how great this or that technology is, and how it should be used to program various aircraft flight systems et al; and automobile acceleration-control software (or whatever); and the list goes on. So it's another "chicken-or-the-egg" thing. Meanwhile, Ada, M Technology (aka Mumps), COBOL, the latter 2 having billions of lines of code still extent, useful and necessary, are relegated to academia's antiquities museum. Bullshit! and the story keeps repeating itself over and over again. Anyway, this is totally OT, so I had better quit while I'm ahead. ;) -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 13:10 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-25 2:07 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-25 2:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > it doesn't make _any_ difference to the health and welfare of this > planet if the next video game to hit the shelves is buggier than hell, > because it was written in whatever, taking 3 times as long to write > than what it could have taken using saner tools. I'm in an arguing mood tonight, so I'll argue with this, too :). If the customers insisted on games that are nicely playable, didn't crash, had good sound and smooth video, and the programmers were able to deliver that, then everyone would be happier. That counts a lot towards "welfare". The programmers would be happier because they'd be forced to use better tools and processes. I'm far happier when I'm writing in Ada with Emacs than when I'm writing in VHDL with Modelsim! > which leads me to academia!. Some egg-head(s) get it into their skulls that > this or that language is cool, so some university starts to push flavor A, > at the expense of other "industry-proven" technology. My impression is it's the other way around. Java took over in universities because Sun marketed it. But I don't have any good data to back that up. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-24 13:10 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-25 2:02 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-25 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-04 21:09 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-25 2:02 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > On Mon, 24 May 2010 05:00:58 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > >> Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: >> >>> On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >>>> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>>>> >>>>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>>>> on the JSF aircraft project? >>>> >>>> Money. >>>> >>>> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >>>> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >>>> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >>>> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >>> >>> That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for >>> using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed >>> is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. >> >> It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the >> contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools >> and writing good software, that's what would happen. >> >> It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the >> client's job to set the terms of the contract. > > Nice theory, not working in practice. Imagine your baker trying making as > much money as possible and you setting terms on the bread's ingredients. Not a valid comparison; I don't have nearly as much buying power as the DOD. A better comparison is a national supermarket chain negotiating with several large bakery chains. And that does work much better than the DOD vs the military contractors. > It is the fault of the CS ? Civil Servants? Computer Science? > unable to deliver a sound background for software engineering. Which > is more shamanism than engineering. If it's shamanism, then how are the computer science schools at fault? "Worship Microsoft" sounds like good shamanism. It used to be "worship IBM". The complaint was that the contractors are greedy. Under capitalism, the assumption is that _everyone_ is greedy, but the government sets the rules so the societies best interest is served by everyone's greed. It takes a long term view, and adequate social/political education on everyone's part. _that's_ why it doesn't work; thinking is hard, most people don't want to do it. Just like writing good code in Ada is harder than writing sloppy code in C. To bring this mildly back on topic. > This in turn makes it impossible to impose *reasonable* regulations on > what software is and how it is to be engineered. We don't need regulations, we need success oriented contracting. Part of the problem is people don't know how to manage large systems; that's why the air traffic control system is not replaced yet. > (Unreasonable regulations are plenty, of course) Meaningful > regulations exist, for example, for bakers, so when you buy bread it > is bread. Depends; if I buy it at the local grocery store, it's more like plastic. If I buy it at the farmer's market, then it is bread. The only regulation involved is health; no bacteria or mold allowed. > When you buy software it can be anything. Because nobody knows for > sure how to do it "right". It is much easier to measure results than to enforce process. But people don't want to spend the time to do that either. > It is "our" word against the word of c-java-dot-net-UML camp. The > latter is far more vocal. So what do you expect DoD to do? Require results, not process. Banks get good software for their central money servers, because they insist that they actually work, and are secure, and spend the money to ensure that happens (and some of them are written in SPARK). NASA's space shuttle software doesn't fail, because they insist on not killing astronauts. The strategy in response to that requirement is to take CMM to heart, and don't let new hires write code until they know what they are doing. But it's the insistence on the goal that matters. Commercial airline software is more reliable than the rest of the plane. Good software is possible, it's just hard work on everyone's part. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 2:02 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-25 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:36 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 7:16 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-25 9:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:02:20 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > >> On Mon, 24 May 2010 05:00:58 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: >> >>> Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: >>> >>>> On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >>>>> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>>>>> on the JSF aircraft project? >>>>> >>>>> Money. >>>>> >>>>> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >>>>> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >>>>> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >>>>> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >>>> >>>> That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for >>>> using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed >>>> is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. >>> >>> It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the >>> contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools >>> and writing good software, that's what would happen. >>> >>> It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the >>> client's job to set the terms of the contract. >> >> Nice theory, not working in practice. Imagine your baker trying making as >> much money as possible and you setting terms on the bread's ingredients. > > Not a valid comparison; I don't have nearly as much buying power as the > DOD. Today DoD cannot afford design of a new technology, language, compiler. DoD can only buy something already designed, e.g. C. It would be a little exaggeration to compare DoD's influence on the language/technology market with yours or mine. And it keeps on ceasing. The next flight system could will be in C#. >> unable to deliver a sound background for software engineering. Which >> is more shamanism than engineering. > > If it's shamanism, then how are the computer science schools at fault? > "Worship Microsoft" sounds like good shamanism. It used to be "worship > IBM". Worshiping belongs to church. > The complaint was that the contractors are greedy. Under capitalism, the > assumption is that _everyone_ is greedy, but the government sets the > rules so the societies best interest is served by everyone's greed. Absolutely > It takes a long term view, and adequate social/political education on > everyone's part. _that's_ why it doesn't work; thinking is hard, most > people don't want to do it. People are bad, they were created to kill, steal, become obese and program in C. You cannot change that. >> This in turn makes it impossible to impose *reasonable* regulations on >> what software is and how it is to be engineered. > > We don't need regulations, we need success oriented contracting. How do you measure "success"? In terms of market shares? Isn't C a success? > Part of the problem is people don't know how to manage large systems; > that's why the air traffic control system is not replaced yet. The problem is that there is no market for large, mission critical systems. You cannot afford trial and error strategy for a system controlling nuclear reactor or air traffic. Similarly, there is no and cannot be a market for computer languages, operating systems etc. Without regulations the result is always microsoft. With regulations it will probably be even worse, because there is no criteria to create such regulations. >> (Unreasonable regulations are plenty, of course) Meaningful >> regulations exist, for example, for bakers, so when you buy bread it >> is bread. > > Depends; if I buy it at the local grocery store, it's more like plastic. > If I buy it at the farmer's market, then it is bread. The only > regulation involved is health; no bacteria or mold allowed. This is what I meant. C is unhealthy. It should be not a question to discuss, not for market evaluation, not for customers to decide. But only a hard science has the authority to pass such judgements. >> When you buy software it can be anything. Because nobody knows for >> sure how to do it "right". > > It is much easier to measure results than to enforce process. I doubt it. Usually testing systems are far more complex than the things under test. Anyway you move the problem to the customer's shoulders. They have already spoken. People choose C and Windows, because see above. > But people don't want to spend the time to do that either. See above (:-)) >> It is "our" word against the word of c-java-dot-net-UML camp. The >> latter is far more vocal. So what do you expect DoD to do? > > Require results, not process. No, require at least *liability*. Forbid "no warranty" commercial licenses. Scrap "you don't own the software, you only lease it" ones. The things will change then. This would be a purely regulatory activity. > Banks get good software for their central money servers, because they > insist that they actually work, and are secure, and spend the money to > ensure that happens (and some of them are written in SPARK). Come on, the cash machine in my bank runs Windows. Guess, how I leant that? Right, I periodically observe how it crashes! (:-)) > NASA's space shuttle software doesn't fail, because they insist on not > killing astronauts. You mean the Mars rover running Java? (:-)) > Good software is possible, it's just hard work on everyone's part. and there is life after death... -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-25 17:36 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:50 ` Warren 2010-05-26 7:16 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 11:05:06 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > People are bad, they were created to kill, steal, become obese and > program > in C. You cannot change that. Seems obvious this activity cannot be ripped apart the rest of the world/humanity. It is mostly done like others human stuff are done. However, computer science is still one which is done the nicer. Yes, there are flow, but at least, a bug is to be fixed when discovered and it is mostly done sooner or later, even if not always the better way. Just compare that to administrations and civil services, which proudly enforce there own bugs more years or two or three century. At least, with computer science, even with C, you will never see someone to be proud of numerous existing bug and maintain and sustain this as much as they can. Just to say that, yes, human is what it is, but computer science is one of the best place where although not all is nice, things goes better than with anything else. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 17:36 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:50 ` Warren 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Warren @ 2010-05-25 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1805 bytes --] =?iso-8859-15?Q?Yannick_Duch=EAne_=28Hibou57=29?= expounded in news:op.vc9u6lo2xmjfy8@garhos: > Le Tue, 25 May 2010 11:05:06 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a �crit: >> People are bad, they were created to kill, steal, become obese and > >> program >> in C. You cannot change that. > Seems obvious this activity cannot be ripped apart the rest of the > world/humanity. I don't know, but I think ppl tend to forget about the things that influence choice (since that is really what we are talking about). No one as a developer would say that he likes to "choose inferior tools". He'll simply challenge what is best or inferior. And when discussing "best", one will not arrive at a single answer anyway because so many other factors must also be considered. So by no means is this an exhaustive list of influences: - ignorance (ppl don't embrace what they don't know) - laziness (even when informed about it, no energy spent to give an honest consideration). - perception (it can be perceived as old/bloated/military whatever) - personal stake (why learn something with no local job market) - resistance to compiler errors (many folks seem happier to debug instead). - interface ease (the need to be good at writing bindings to C/C++) - library/tools support (the quantity and quality of) - crowd thinking (many not willing to defend an unpopular choice) and probably much much more. None of these really have much to do with Ada as technology per se. Most of this (I think) is about popular perception. Even the magazine writers, who should be more knowledgable, tend to cast Ada in a negative light (as a "bloated language" etc.). Or sometimes they confuse it with something else (like perhaps "full PL/I"). This tends to reinforce the misconceptions. Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:36 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 7:16 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-26 8:17 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-26 7:16 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:02:20 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > >> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: >> >>> On Mon, 24 May 2010 05:00:58 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: >>> >>>> It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the >>>> contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools >>>> and writing good software, that's what would happen. >>>> >>>> It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the >>>> client's job to set the terms of the contract. >>> >>> Nice theory, not working in practice. Imagine your baker trying making as >>> much money as possible and you setting terms on the bread's ingredients. >> >> Not a valid comparison; I don't have nearly as much buying power as the >> DOD. > > Today DoD cannot afford design of a new technology, language, compiler. DoD > can only buy something already designed, e.g. C. It would be a little > exaggeration to compare DoD's influence on the language/technology market > with yours or mine. And it keeps on ceasing. The next flight system could > will be in C#. Are we talking about the same DoD? The United States Department of Defense has essentially unlimited funds; look what we are spending in Afghanistan and Iraq. They choose not to spend money on software, but that's a political and technical decision, not a money one. >> We don't need regulations, we need success oriented contracting. > > How do you measure "success"? In terms of market shares? Isn't C a > success? For a DoD contract for a figher airplane, "success" is measured by absence of errors during flight, high performance during flight, and ease of long term maintenance. >> Part of the problem is people don't know how to manage large systems; >> that's why the air traffic control system is not replaced yet. > > The problem is that there is no market for large, mission critical systems. > You cannot afford trial and error strategy for a system controlling > nuclear reactor or air traffic. Technically, there is a market for these, it's just very inefficient because it's low volume. > Similarly, there is no and cannot be a market for computer languages, > operating systems etc. You're kidding, right? The whole point of this discussion is about what language to use. > Without regulations the result is always microsoft. Not at my place of work. The reason most peopel use Microsoft is _because_ of regulation. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 7:16 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-26 8:17 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-26 8:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, 26 May 2010 03:16:44 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > >> Today DoD cannot afford design of a new technology, language, compiler. DoD >> can only buy something already designed, e.g. C. It would be a little >> exaggeration to compare DoD's influence on the language/technology market >> with yours or mine. And it keeps on ceasing. The next flight system could >> will be in C#. > > Are we talking about the same DoD? The United States Department of > Defense has essentially unlimited funds; look what we are spending in > Afghanistan and Iraq. These funds cannot be spent on software development. Well, the software may kill, but it predominantly does its users... (:-)) > They choose not to spend money on software, but that's a political and > technical decision, not a money one. That is the same. Software is not considered an existential threat (it probably should). >>> We don't need regulations, we need success oriented contracting. >> >> How do you measure "success"? In terms of market shares? Isn't C a >> success? > > For a DoD contract for a figher airplane, "success" is measured by > absence of errors during flight, high performance during flight, and > ease of long term maintenance. Yep, and none of these can be unequivocally deduced from the software design faults. And absolutely none from the software technology. Remember Ariane. >>> Part of the problem is people don't know how to manage large systems; >>> that's why the air traffic control system is not replaced yet. >> >> The problem is that there is no market for large, mission critical systems. >> You cannot afford trial and error strategy for a system controlling >> nuclear reactor or air traffic. > > Technically, there is a market for these, it's just very inefficient > because it's low volume. That is the point. If you had millions competing implementations of the same software product, you could chose the best vendor by natural selection in some years. That will *never* happen with software, written by man. The price to establish such a competition is millions higher than the price of any monopolist's software faults. Software is a natural monopoly. >> Similarly, there is no and cannot be a market for computer languages, >> operating systems etc. > > You're kidding, right? The whole point of this discussion is about what > language to use. Exactly. If market worked, you knew the answer from there. >> Without regulations the result is always microsoft. > > Not at my place of work. The reason most peopel use Microsoft is > _because_ of regulation. May I beg for an example? -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 2:02 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-25 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-03 7:23 ` Niklas Holsti ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-03 2:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 04:02:20 +0200, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a écrit: > It is much easier to measure results than to enforce process. But people > don't want to spend the time to do that either. Not sure (but I don't bother, as my opinion is difficult to argue) > Banks get good software for their central money servers, because they > insist that they actually work, and are secure, and spend the money to > ensure that happens (and some of them are written in SPARK). And the others ? > NASA's space shuttle software doesn't fail, because they insist on not > killing astronauts. The strategy in response to that requirement is to > take CMM to heart, What is CMM ? > Commercial airline software is more reliable than the rest of the plane. I encounter difficulties interpreting this one : do you mean commercial applications or an airline company are typically more reliable than the one its planes ? if that is so, that's frightening > Good software is possible, it's just hard work on everyone's part. Perhaps the hardest one is finally investment on the client side (I mean, the human client). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-03 7:23 ` Niklas Holsti 2010-06-03 7:47 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-04 9:08 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Niklas Holsti @ 2010-06-03 7:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Yannick Duchï¿œne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Tue, 25 May 2010 04:02:20 +0200, Stephen Leake > <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a ï¿œcrit: >> NASA's space shuttle software doesn't fail, because they insist on not >> killing astronauts. The strategy in response to that requirement is to >> take CMM to heart, > What is CMM ? "... a development model elicited from actual data. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model -- Niklas Holsti Tidorum Ltd niklas holsti tidorum fi . @ . ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-03 7:23 ` Niklas Holsti @ 2010-06-03 7:47 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-04 9:09 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-03 7:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:23:14 +0200, Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> a écrit: >> What is CMM ? > > "... a development model elicited from actual data. " > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model > Ah, OK, that is a certification of quality of service (somewhat comparable to ISO 9001) in the domain of leading/driving software projects. (if I'm not wrong if this summary) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-03 7:47 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-04 9:09 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-04 9:09 UTC (permalink / raw) "Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes: > Le Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:23:14 +0200, Niklas Holsti > <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> a écrit: >>> What is CMM ? >> >> "... a development model elicited from actual data. " >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model >> > Ah, OK, that is a certification of quality of service (somewhat > comparable to ISO 9001) in the domain of leading/driving software > projects. CMM itself is a description of how to think about the process of developing software (or other engineering activities). It defines various levels, and you can get certified to those levels. But the important point is the thinking, not the certifying. Of course, many management types miss this point, and simply insist on being certified, while not allowing time for thinking. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-03 7:23 ` Niklas Holsti @ 2010-06-04 9:08 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-04 9:27 ` Brian Drummond 2010-06-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler 2 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-04 9:08 UTC (permalink / raw) "Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes: > Le Tue, 25 May 2010 04:02:20 +0200, Stephen Leake > <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a écrit: > What is CMM ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model >> Commercial airline software is more reliable than the rest of the plane. > I encounter difficulties interpreting this one : do you mean > commercial applications or an airline company are typically more > reliable than the one its planes ? I mean the software in embedded computers on an airplane is more reliable than the mechanical components in the airplane. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 9:08 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-04 9:27 ` Brian Drummond 2010-06-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Brian Drummond @ 2010-06-04 9:27 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 05:08:06 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> wrote: >"Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes: > >> Le Tue, 25 May 2010 04:02:20 +0200, Stephen Leake >> <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a �crit: > >> What is CMM ? > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model > >>> Commercial airline software is more reliable than the rest of the plane. >> I encounter difficulties interpreting this one : do you mean >> commercial applications or an airline company are typically more >> reliable than the one its planes ? > >I mean the software in embedded computers on an airplane is more >reliable than the mechanical components in the airplane. Some of the embedded computers on an airplane... My wife just returned from the States. She managed to crash one of the in-flight video games, which rebooted her LCD/TV/on-demand-video terminal. She gleefully noted a picture of a penguin scrolling past in the kernel boot messages... (and some announcements to the effect that "this module will not work with this kernel") Perhaps Ada ought to be more widely used... - Brian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 9:08 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-04 9:27 ` Brian Drummond @ 2010-06-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-04 10:55 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 4:00 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-04 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 05:08:06 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > "Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes: > >> Le Tue, 25 May 2010 04:02:20 +0200, Stephen Leake >> <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a �crit: > >> What is CMM ? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model > >>> Commercial airline software is more reliable than the rest of the plane. >> I encounter difficulties interpreting this one : do you mean >> commercial applications or an airline company are typically more >> reliable than the one its planes ? > > I mean the software in embedded computers on an airplane is more > reliable than the mechanical components in the airplane. I wonder how would you (or anyone else) substantiate this claim. The technical problem is that mechanical components faults have a stochastic nature. I.e. you have a certain probability of fault (due to physical processes involved in production and function of the given component). On the contrary, a software fault is not stochastic, neither in its production nor at run-time. A given bug is either here or not. There is no probability associated with it. Isn't it comparing apples and oranges? P.S. One thinkable scenario could be to consider all possible states of the program. Let some of them when reached are considered as manifestation of a certain fault. The probability that the states were reached might be nominated the fault's probability. This model does not look very convincing. Especially, because it rather depends on the program's inputs, than on the program itself. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-04 10:55 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-04 12:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 4:00 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-04 10:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:40:19 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: >> I mean the software in embedded computers on an airplane is more >> reliable than the mechanical components in the airplane. > > I wonder how would you (or anyone else) substantiate this claim. The > technical problem is that mechanical components faults have a stochastic > nature. I.e. you have a certain probability of fault (due to physical > processes involved in production and function of the given component). On > the contrary, a software fault is not stochastic, neither in its > production > nor at run-time. A given bug is either here or not. There is no > probability > associated with it. Isn't it comparing apples and oranges? This does not invalidate statistics on source of failures (OK to say this can explains these statistics). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 10:55 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-04 12:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-04 12:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-04 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:55:00 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:40:19 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a �crit: >>> I mean the software in embedded computers on an airplane is more >>> reliable than the mechanical components in the airplane. >> >> I wonder how would you (or anyone else) substantiate this claim. The >> technical problem is that mechanical components faults have a stochastic >> nature. I.e. you have a certain probability of fault (due to physical >> processes involved in production and function of the given component). On >> the contrary, a software fault is not stochastic, neither in its production >> nor at run-time. A given bug is either here or not. There is no probability >> associated with it. Isn't it comparing apples and oranges? > This does not invalidate statistics on source of failures (OK to say this > can explains these statistics). If you mean "lies, damned lies, and statistics" then yes. (Did you know that 90% of people died in car accidents had eaten cucumbers shortly before the accident? (:-)) If you mean mathematical statistics, then its applicability depends on strict conditions. Prior these established the statistics (samples) of failures is just a collection of anecdotes... -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 12:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-04 12:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-04 12:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:23:07 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > If you mean mathematical statistics, then its applicability depends on > strict conditions. Prior these established the statistics (samples) of > failures is just a collection of anecdotes... As usual, with mathematics and logic, interpretation is an issue. The interpretation here should be correlation (I am not arguing this is true that software is less or more reliable than mechanical parts, as I don't have needed materials to assert anything about it). Statistics are intermediate results, and intermediate result are not always interpretable, ok, you're right. > If you mean "lies, damned lies, and statistics" then yes. (Did you know > that 90% of people died in car accidents had eaten cucumbers shortly > before > the accident? (:-)) This is not even an implication, so it is unlikely this will legitimately argue for a correlation. Here is why: “Had eaten cucumbers” may be an antecedent of many other things, so this would not be a meaningful correlation, and moreover “Had eaten cucumbers” may be an antecedent of “accident occurred” as much as “no accident occurred at all”, so this does not justify an implication or correlation. Well, I am relying on an implicit here, because what is exactly missing, in your example, would exactly be statistics about “Had eaten cucumbers” when “no accident occurred at all”. Conclusion : one statistic is not relevant alone, it needs others, forming a good coverage of different cases (logic needs its food). I was wrong just saying “statistics”, so the reformulation I suggest is “this does not invalidate any noticed correlation” (statistics being just a tool there, to help see correlation, and multiple statistics are needed for various configurations). I suppose I understand what you mean and was just wrong with my wordings. Cheers -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-04 10:55 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 4:00 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-05 6:13 ` tmoran 2010-06-05 12:16 ` Simon Wright 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-05 4:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 05:08:06 -0400, Stephen Leake wrote: > >> "Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes: >> >>> Le Tue, 25 May 2010 04:02:20 +0200, Stephen Leake >>> <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a écrit: >> >>> What is CMM ? >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model >> >>>> Commercial airline software is more reliable than the rest of the plane. >>> I encounter difficulties interpreting this one : do you mean >>> commercial applications or an airline company are typically more >>> reliable than the one its planes ? >> >> I mean the software in embedded computers on an airplane is more >> reliable than the mechanical components in the airplane. > > I wonder how would you (or anyone else) substantiate this claim. Just on the basis of news reports of the causes of airplane crashes. To my memory, none have been due to software. > The technical problem is that mechanical components faults have a > stochastic nature. I.e. you have a certain probability of fault (due > to physical processes involved in production and function of the given > component). On the contrary, a software fault is not stochastic, > neither in its production nor at run-time. A given bug is either here > or not. Whether the bug is encountered is sometimes stochastic. But generally you are correct. > There is no probability associated with it. Isn't it comparing apples > and oranges? Yes. And they are both fruits, and can be compared to some extent. It's not like trying to compare science fiction novels and oil wells. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 4:00 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-05 6:13 ` tmoran 2010-06-05 8:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 12:16 ` Simon Wright 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2010-06-05 6:13 UTC (permalink / raw) >> The technical problem is that mechanical components faults have a >> stochastic nature. I.e. you have a certain probability of fault (due >> to physical processes involved in production and function of the given >> component). On the contrary, a software fault is not stochastic, >> neither in its production nor at run-time. A given bug is either here >> or not. > >Whether the bug is encountered is sometimes stochastic. But generally >you are correct. There are a set of bugs in a given piece of software. On any given day, there's a certainly probability that's when you will stumble across one. When you remove a bug you remove its probability component so the total probability of going a day without a bug is now larger (assuming any newly introduced bug is less likely than the removed one). Bugs that are more likely to bite will be found and removed sooner, so the rate of finding bugs will tend to drop. This is all describable with simple probability and statistics. If you want to claim it's "not stochastic" then I would claim neither is a physical fault - the pressure applied today on the weak joint either is or is not sufficient to cause a fracture, and metal fatigue weakening is a straightforward physical process. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 6:13 ` tmoran @ 2010-06-05 8:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 9:05 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 17:59 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 8:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 06:13:59 +0000 (UTC), tmoran@acm.org wrote: >>> The technical problem is that mechanical components faults have a >>> stochastic nature. I.e. you have a certain probability of fault (due >>> to physical processes involved in production and function of the given >>> component). On the contrary, a software fault is not stochastic, >>> neither in its production nor at run-time. A given bug is either here >>> or not. >> >>Whether the bug is encountered is sometimes stochastic. But generally >>you are correct. > There are a set of bugs in a given piece of software. On any given > day, there's a certainly probability that's when you will stumble > across one. When you remove a bug you remove its probability component > so the total probability of going a day without a bug is now larger > (assuming any newly introduced bug is less likely than the removed one). > Bugs that are more likely to bite will be found and removed sooner, > so the rate of finding bugs will tend to drop. This is all describable > with simple probability and statistics. Yes, this is what I tried to describe in terms of program states. (Encounter bug = program transits an "error state") The problem with this is that it presumes that states are random, which are not, because [most of] programs are deterministic. Any randomness which might exist is derived from the inputs. I.e. it is the program usage, which makes the *same* program less or more reliable. According to this approach the most reliable car is one you do not drive. [You booted reliable Windows? That's your fault! (:-))] Another problem which worries me, is program changes. Let I modify the program, the result is *another* program. How can I talk about the "reliability" of what? Well, they share some code, but certainly we cannot consider source lines random. E.g. Let I modify 0,01% of the source of 90% "reliable" program. I can tell nothing about whether the result is 90% reliable +/- factor * 0.01%. This model just does not work. > If you want to claim it's > "not stochastic" then I would claim neither is a physical fault - the > pressure applied today on the weak joint either is or is not sufficient > to cause a fracture, and metal fatigue weakening is a straightforward > physical process. Yes, one could say that physical components at some macro level have the nature of a discrete deterministic system, i.e. function like programs do. But the underlying processes and the process of "discretization" (pressure>X) are stochastic. Well, maybe the notion of reliability cannot be applied to complex physical system? But on the other hand, the more complex system is more random its behavior appears to the observer, looks like a paradox... -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 8:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 9:05 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 9:30 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 17:59 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 9:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:00:07 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > Another problem which worries me, is program changes. Let I modify the > program, the result is *another* program. How can I talk about the > "reliability" of what? Well, they share some code, but certainly we > cannot > consider source lines random. E.g. Let I modify 0,01% of the source of > 90% > "reliable" program. I can tell nothing about whether the result is 90% > reliable +/- factor * 0.01%. This model just does not work. So this is chaotic (and there is a science which can talk about it too). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 9:05 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 9:30 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 9:45 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 6:36 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 9:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:05:16 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:00:07 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a �crit: >> Another problem which worries me, is program changes. Let I modify the >> program, the result is *another* program. How can I talk about the >> "reliability" of what? Well, they share some code, but certainly we cannot >> consider source lines random. E.g. Let I modify 0,01% of the source of 90% >> "reliable" program. I can tell nothing about whether the result is 90% >> reliable +/- factor * 0.01%. This model just does not work. > So this is chaotic (and there is a science which can talk about it too). Do you mean chaos theory here? In that context reliability must be redefined. Well, I doubt that chaos theory could efficiently handle that. Although most of programs as well as software developing processes are indeed cyclic/iterative. One could try to apply the theory there. Boarding a plane would you be glad to hear that the software developing process used for its flight system wasn't random? It was CHAOTIC! (:-)) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 9:30 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 9:45 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 6:36 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 9:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:30:08 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > Boarding a plane would you be glad to hear that the software developing > process used for its flight system wasn't random? It was CHAOTIC! (:-)) In some way (despite the fact is should be all avoided), yes: at least this is a sign that security matter know what to focus on. This end into a very different situation than the one where it could just be said said “really nobody know at all where a trouble is the most likely to occurs if one ever happened”. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 9:30 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 9:45 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 6:36 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2010-06-06 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:05:16 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: >> So this is chaotic (and there is a science which can talk about it >> too). > Do you mean chaos theory here? I don't think "chaos theory" as such is the right answer, but some of the tools developed to analyse and model complex systems may be able to help us put some numbers on the risks involved in changing software. As far as I know, nobody has done this yet, but it is definitely interesting. > In that context reliability must be redefined. Well, I doubt that > chaos theory could efficiently handle that. Although most of programs > as well as software developing processes are indeed > cyclic/iterative. One could try to apply the theory there. I don't think it is development process as much as it is the interconnectedness of the produced software which is interesting. > Boarding a plane would you be glad to hear that the software > developing process used for its flight system wasn't random? It was > CHAOTIC! (:-)) :-) Jacob -- "It ain't rocket science!" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 8:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 9:05 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 17:59 ` tmoran 2010-06-05 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2010-06-05 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw) >is that it presumes that states are random, which are not, because [most >of] programs are deterministic. Any randomness which might exist is derived >from the inputs. I.e. it is the program usage, which makes the *same* >program less or more reliable. According to this approach the most reliable >car is one you do not drive. Mechanical devices also fail due to unfortunate, unanticipated, combinations of random inputs. Rockets don't fail in the middle of the night sitting in the assembly building. They fail when, for instance, the air temperature is very low and the rocket is on full thrust and with those inputs the O-ring can't sufficiently do its job. You don't say "O-rings are or are not reliable" - you say "under such and such conditions O-rings are 99.9999% likely to prevent dangerous amounts of leakage. Under such and such other inputs, that drops to 99.9%, or 90%, or 10%." > ... E.g. Let I modify 0,01% of the source of 90% > "reliable" program. I can tell nothing about whether the result is 90% > reliable +/- factor * 0.01%. This model just does not work. The word "model" is key. It is meaningless to talk about whether something, software or hardware, *is* stochastic - but one can observe whether a stochastic *model* of the system is helpful or not. As to program changes, one talks about how confident you are that the program will not hit a bug today, as compared to yesterday before you made the change. Your confidence will depend not just on the fraction of source code changed, but also on careful consideration of the nature and expected effects of the change, and observations while testing the changed version. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 17:59 ` tmoran @ 2010-06-05 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 20:41 ` tmoran ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 17:59:36 +0000 (UTC), tmoran@acm.org wrote: >>is that it presumes that states are random, which are not, because [most >>of] programs are deterministic. Any randomness which might exist is derived >>from the inputs. I.e. it is the program usage, which makes the *same* >>program less or more reliable. According to this approach the most reliable >>car is one you do not drive. > Mechanical devices also fail due to unfortunate, unanticipated, > combinations of random inputs. Rockets don't fail in the middle of the > night sitting in the assembly building. They fail when, for instance, the > air temperature is very low and the rocket is on full thrust and with > those inputs the O-ring can't sufficiently do its job. You don't say > "O-rings are or are not reliable" - you say "under such and such > conditions O-rings are 99.9999% likely to prevent dangerous amounts of > leakage. Under such and such other inputs, that drops to 99.9%, > or 90%, or 10%." That is the difference. if you fixed the inputs/environment there still would be a probability of fault. A Maxwell's daemon sits inside each of these things deciding if he let you go or not. There is nothing in, say, integer addition. If you fixed the inputs it would either overflow or not. >> ... E.g. Let I modify 0,01% of the source of 90% >> "reliable" program. I can tell nothing about whether the result is 90% >> reliable +/- factor * 0.01%. This model just does not work. > The word "model" is key. It is meaningless to talk about whether > something, software or hardware, *is* stochastic - but one can observe > whether a stochastic *model* of the system is helpful or not. Hmm, I think a physicist would strongly disagree with that. AFAIK, there is no working deterministic models of quantum processes. > As to program changes, one talks about how confident you are that the > program will not hit a bug today, as compared to yesterday before you made > the change. Maybe, but 1. Confidence has nothing to do with probability. It is an absolutely different model of uncertainly. That returns us to the square one. Confidences and probabilities are incomparable. 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it is like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust my word? > Your confidence will depend not just on the fraction of > source code changed, but also on careful consideration of the nature and > expected effects of the change, and observations while testing the changed > version. No, it will not, because you defined it as confidence. If there is something behind it, then why confidence? Name that thing, and define reliability in terms of that. The problem that there seems nothing there, except for confidences of other people. BTW, this is my concern about software certification procedures. It fact, they act quite as you suggested. They certify programmers, they don't the software. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 20:41 ` tmoran 2010-06-06 7:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 3:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 10:22 ` Simon Wright 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2010-06-05 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw) > > The word "model" is key. It is meaningless to talk about whether > > something, software or hardware, *is* stochastic - but one can observe > > whether a stochastic *model* of the system is helpful or not. > > Hmm, I think a physicist would strongly disagree with that. AFAIK, there is > no working deterministic models of quantum processes. A fair number of physicists have tried to find a hidden-variable deterministic version of quantum mechanics. In the meantime, engineers quite successfully used the probabilistic model to build working devices. > 1. Confidence has nothing to do with probability. It is an absolutely > different model of uncertainly. That returns us to the square one. > Confidences and probabilities are incomparable. > > 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it is > like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust my > word? We fundamentally differ. I use statistical decision theory, which takes costs of outcomes and *estimated probabilities* of outcomes, to make decisions. All I have is my best estimates, ie, confidence levels. I don't know the "absolute probability" of an event, and if you define that by frequency of occurrence, you really need to wait till the end of the universe to finally nail that down. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 20:41 ` tmoran @ 2010-06-06 7:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 19:27 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 7:18 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:41:47 +0000 (UTC), tmoran@acm.org wrote: >>> The word "model" is key. It is meaningless to talk about whether >>> something, software or hardware, *is* stochastic - but one can observe >>> whether a stochastic *model* of the system is helpful or not. >> >> Hmm, I think a physicist would strongly disagree with that. AFAIK, there is >> no working deterministic models of quantum processes. > A fair number of physicists have tried to find a hidden-variable > deterministic version of quantum mechanics. In the meantime, engineers > quite successfully used the probabilistic model to build working devices. Yes, the modern understanding is that things are inherently random. >> 1. Confidence has nothing to do with probability. It is an absolutely >> different model of uncertainly. That returns us to the square one. >> Confidences and probabilities are incomparable. >> >> 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it is >> like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust my >> word? > We fundamentally differ. I use statistical decision theory, which > takes costs of outcomes and *estimated probabilities* of outcomes, to make > decisions. Ah, I thought you meant "confidence factors", but it seems that you did "confidence intervals"? > All I have is my best estimates, ie, confidence levels. I > don't know the "absolute probability" of an event, and if you define that > by frequency of occurrence, you really need to wait till the end of the > universe to finally nail that down. No problem, confidence interval is perfectly OK. The probability itself tells nothing about next occurrence. The problem is that to apply this theory to software you need maybe, imaginary space of elementary outcomes (independent, complete etc). I don't see any of that in the software. It is a fundamental issue. What is the probability that the 100_000th decimal position of Pi is 5? 0.1? Rubbish, it is not a random variable! -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 7:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 19:27 ` tmoran 2010-06-07 7:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2010-06-06 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) >The problem is that to apply this theory to software you need maybe, >imaginary space of elementary outcomes (independent, complete etc). I don't >see any of that in the software. It is a fundamental issue. The number of bugs in a certain piece of software is analogous to the number of unexploded WWII bombs buried in Berlin. There are a certain, unknown, number, and next Wednesday none, or at least one, will be discovered. But the probability of discovering a bug, or a bomb, is a number which can be guesstimated. And the size of that probability informs our decision about whether to launch the rocket that depends on that software, or whether to disband the bomb squad. In the real world you can't throw up your hands and say "I don't know the probability" because someone will ask "OK, should we launch/disband or not?" and you need to give an answer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 19:27 ` tmoran @ 2010-06-07 7:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 7:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:27:48 +0000 (UTC), tmoran@acm.org wrote: >>The problem is that to apply this theory to software you need maybe, >>imaginary space of elementary outcomes (independent, complete etc). I don't >>see any of that in the software. It is a fundamental issue. > The number of bugs in a certain piece of software is analogous to the > number of unexploded WWII bombs buried in Berlin. No. Both are realizations of some process. The latter was to some extent random, the former was not. If you drop bombs from the same spot they will distribute themselves in some area. If you rewrite a line of code, you introduce the same bug or no bug each time. The way how the source code line N receives a bug M is not random. Lines are not equivalent in their affinity to bugs. Bugs are not necessarily located in a single line. Bugs are not necessary located in adjacent lines. Bugs are not same, and so on and so forth. > There are a certain, > unknown, number, and next Wednesday none, or at least one, will be > discovered. But the probability of discovering a bug, or a bomb, is a > number which can be guesstimated. OK, that is yet another process. It only makes things more complicated. The way bombs are discovered could be considered stochastic, however I am not very sure about it. As for bugs, it is certainly not stochastic. But in any case the discovery process tells nothing about the software itself. You need some theory/model in order to be able to say that if the bug discovery rate was Rn-3, Rn-2, Rn-1, Rn, then it is to expect the next rate Rn=f(Rn-3, Rn-2, Rn-1, Rn). I don't see any such theory. And it seems to me that it cannot be mathematical statistics, at least prior to a probabilistic model of bugs (not their discovery process). > And the size of that probability > informs our decision about whether to launch the rocket that depends on > that software, or whether to disband the bomb squad. In the real world > you can't throw up your hands and say "I don't know the probability" > because someone will ask "OK, should we launch/disband or not?" and you > need to give an answer. Yes, and the answer is as always: 4.12... (:-)) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 20:41 ` tmoran @ 2010-06-06 3:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 10:22 ` Simon Wright 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:59:58 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > BTW, this is my concern about software certification procedures. It fact, > they act quite as you suggested. They certify programmers, they don't the > software. What is this named “software certification” then ? Are you sure you are not talking about some non-glorious example only ? Or is it really common ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 3:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 7:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 05:46:29 +0200, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:59:58 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: >> BTW, this is my concern about software certification procedures. It fact, >> they act quite as you suggested. They certify programmers, they don't the >> software. > What is this named “software certification” then ? Are you sure you are > not talking about some non-glorious example only ? Or is it really common ? I had talks with certification authority guys, and my overall impression is what I said. But you better ask people who have more experience with that. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 20:41 ` tmoran 2010-06-06 3:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 10:22 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-06 11:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Simon Wright @ 2010-06-06 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it > is like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust > my word? Because you are a gentleman? (sorry -- been re-watching Lost In Austen!) Because you have given your word in the past and it has proved trustworthy? Because you are a member of a professional organisation (eg, chartered engineer)? Because you've been following appropriate review processes? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 10:22 ` Simon Wright @ 2010-06-06 11:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 13:58 ` Simon Wright 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:22:41 +0100, Simon Wright wrote: > "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > >> 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it >> is like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust >> my word? > > Because you are a gentleman? (sorry -- been re-watching Lost In Austen!) A measure of being gentleman? > Because you have given your word in the past and it has proved > trustworthy? Proved how, means, measures? BTW, statistics isn't applicable here either. Let you write the same program 100 times. What is the probability that you won't make a mistake X? It is not a probability. The code deviation after stripping factors of learning, tiredness, disgust, rebellion is null. > Because you are a member of a professional organisation (eg, chartered > engineer)? Substitutes words of other people for mine. (And be sure, they use mine in support of theirs! (:-)) > Because you've been following appropriate review processes? Made by other members of the clique, by state bureaucrats? -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 11:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 13:58 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-06 17:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Simon Wright @ 2010-06-06 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:22:41 +0100, Simon Wright wrote: > >> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: >> >>> 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it >>> is like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust >>> my word? >> >> Because you are a gentleman? (sorry -- been re-watching Lost In Austen!) > > A measure of being gentleman? This was meant to be a joke, apologies. More-or-less in this sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman#Gentleman_by_conduct >> Because you have given your word in the past and it has proved >> trustworthy? > > Proved how, means, measures? BTW, statistics isn't applicable here either. > Let you write the same program 100 times. What is the probability that you > won't make a mistake X? It is not a probability. The code deviation after > stripping factors of learning, tiredness, disgust, rebellion is null. 'proved' might not have been the right word. I meant, if you are the release manager for a project and receive an updated package from a developer, you'll have a degree of trust in the suitability of the update which depends on how reliable that developer has been in the past. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 13:58 ` Simon Wright @ 2010-06-06 17:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:58:20 +0100, Simon Wright wrote: > "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > >> On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:22:41 +0100, Simon Wright wrote: >> >>> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: >>> >>>> 2. Your confidence describes you, it does not the program. It fact, it >>>> is like - I give my word, it works. Fine, but why anybody should trust >>>> my word? >>> >>> Because you are a gentleman? (sorry -- been re-watching Lost In Austen!) >> >> A measure of being gentleman? > > This was meant to be a joke, apologies. More-or-less in this sense: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman#Gentleman_by_conduct > >>> Because you have given your word in the past and it has proved >>> trustworthy? >> >> Proved how, means, measures? BTW, statistics isn't applicable here either. >> Let you write the same program 100 times. What is the probability that you >> won't make a mistake X? It is not a probability. The code deviation after >> stripping factors of learning, tiredness, disgust, rebellion is null. > > 'proved' might not have been the right word. I meant, if you are the > release manager for a project and receive an updated package from a > developer, you'll have a degree of trust in the suitability of the > update which depends on how reliable that developer has been in the > past. This all does not go beyond confidence factors (AKA truth values). There is no way to estimate a confidence factor otherwise than by an expert poll. The ways evidences are combined are quite ad-hoc. Now, how to translate this into decision making? Input: confidence 0.78 Output: the project will be completed in 2 months Input: confidence 0.78 Output: next engine maintenance is required after 462 flight hours -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 4:00 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-05 6:13 ` tmoran @ 2010-06-05 12:16 ` Simon Wright 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Simon Wright @ 2010-06-05 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes: > Whether the bug is encountered is sometimes stochastic. In particular this can be true of race conditions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-03 7:23 ` Niklas Holsti 2010-06-04 9:08 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler 2010-06-04 21:10 ` Martin Krischik ` (3 more replies) 2 siblings, 4 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Fritz Wuehler @ 2010-06-04 19:23 UTC (permalink / raw) > > Banks get good software for their central money servers, because they > > insist that they actually work, and are secure, and spend the money to > > ensure that happens (and some of them are written in SPARK). > And the others ? None of the bank software I have seen has ever been written in Ada, much less Spark. It's is 100% COBOL. They may have front-ends written in all sorts of garbage languages (Java, etc.) but the financial processing is COBOL and there is still some amount of assembler around. Ada is better than COBOL except in one way. It is easier to write reports (the bulk of financial processing) and define decimal (money) fields in COBOL than Ada. It *could* have been used in financial processing, but COBOL had two decades and a half of a head start. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler @ 2010-06-04 21:10 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-04 22:02 ` Dirk Craeynest ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-04 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Am 04.06.2010, 21:23 Uhr, schrieb Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201006.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>: > None of the bank software I have seen has ever been written in Ada, much > less Spark. The Swiss PostFinance uses Ada. And they are not the only one. Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net https://sourceforge.net/users/krischik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler 2010-06-04 21:10 ` Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-04 22:02 ` Dirk Craeynest 2010-06-05 3:33 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-05 7:47 ` Georg Bauhaus 3 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dirk Craeynest @ 2010-06-04 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <e53f81c956a70a28ffbfdfeabd7606b6@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> in the Usenet newsgroup comp.lang.ada, Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201006.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote: >None of the bank software I have seen has ever been written in Ada, much >less Spark. It's is 100% COBOL. They may have front-ends written in all >sorts of garbage languages (Java, etc.) but the financial processing is >COBOL and there is still some amount of assembler around. http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeldman/ada-project-summary.html#Banking_and_Financial_Systems_ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler 2010-06-04 21:10 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-04 22:02 ` Dirk Craeynest @ 2010-06-05 3:33 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-05 23:17 ` Non scrivetemi 2010-06-05 7:47 ` Georg Bauhaus 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-05 3:33 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-06-04, Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201006.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote: >> > Banks get good software for their central money servers, because they >> > insist that they actually work, and are secure, and spend the money to >> > ensure that happens (and some of them are written in SPARK). >> And the others ? > > None of the bank software I have seen has ever been written in Ada, much > less Spark. It's is 100% COBOL. They may have front-ends written in all > sorts of garbage languages (Java, etc.) but the financial processing is > COBOL and there is still some amount of assembler around. > > Ada is better than COBOL except in one way. It is easier to write reports > (the bulk of financial processing) and define decimal (money) fields in > COBOL than Ada. It *could* have been used in financial processing, but > COBOL had two decades and a half of a head start. > COBOL maybe! However, here in Canada, I'm aware that a lot of financial institutions were set up to use Mumps (now M Technology) and they're still using it. I believe the same is true in the U.S.A. Mumps is _still_ big in the Health Care sector. -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 3:33 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-05 23:17 ` Non scrivetemi 2010-06-06 4:45 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Non scrivetemi @ 2010-06-05 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw) > COBOL maybe! However, here in Canada, I'm aware that a lot of financial > institutions were set up to use Mumps (now M Technology) and they're still > using it. I believe the same is true in the U.S.A. Mumps is _still_ big in > the Health Care sector. Yes, only in H/C. No American bank uses MUMPS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 23:17 ` Non scrivetemi @ 2010-06-06 4:45 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-06 16:41 ` Fritz Wuehler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-06 4:45 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-06-05, Non scrivetemi <nonscrivetemi@pboxmix.winstonsmith.info> wrote: >> COBOL maybe! However, here in Canada, I'm aware that a lot of financial >> institutions were set up to use Mumps (now M Technology) and they're still >> using it. I believe the same is true in the U.S.A. Mumps is _still_ big in >> the Health Care sector. > > Yes, only in H/C. No American bank uses MUMPS. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Are you sure? I've heard differently from MUMPS folks. -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 4:45 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-06 16:41 ` Fritz Wuehler 2010-06-07 2:15 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Fritz Wuehler @ 2010-06-06 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) > > Yes, only in H/C. No American bank uses MUMPS. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Are you sure? I've heard differently from MUMPS folks. Pretty sure. There may be the odd ball out there but 99.9% run IBM z/OS or VSE. If they say otherwise let them name names. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 16:41 ` Fritz Wuehler @ 2010-06-07 2:15 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-07 6:06 ` Non scrivetemi 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-07 2:15 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-06-06, Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201006.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote: >> > Yes, only in H/C. No American bank uses MUMPS. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Are you sure? I've heard differently from MUMPS folks. > > Pretty sure. There may be the odd ball out there but 99.9% run IBM z/OS or > VSE. If they say otherwise let them name names. > Look here: http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg1_MUMPSVM_MUMPS-VM MUMPS (the language/database) has run and continues to run, on _many_ platforms, including z/OS. Which means that perhaps the MUMPS hackers still know of what they speak, although I have zero first-hand knowledge on the banking software in the U.S.A. -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 2:15 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-07 6:06 ` Non scrivetemi 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Non scrivetemi @ 2010-06-07 6:06 UTC (permalink / raw) > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg1_MUMPSVM_MUMPS-VM > > MUMPS (the language/database) has run and continues to run, on _many_ > platforms, including z/OS. Which means that perhaps the MUMPS hackers > still know of what they speak, although I have zero first-hand knowledge > on the banking software in the U.S.A. I don't know of any American bank that uses it and I work with hundreds of banks. Like I said there may be some oddballs but no major operation is going to mess around with that stuff. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-06-05 3:33 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-05 7:47 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-05 22:43 ` starwars 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-05 7:47 UTC (permalink / raw) On 6/4/10 9:23 PM, Fritz Wuehler wrote: > Ada is better than COBOL except in one way. It is easier to write reports > (the bulk of financial processing) and define decimal (money) fields in > COBOL than Ada. It *could* have been used in financial processing, but > COBOL had two decades and a half of a head start. How do Interfaces.COBOL and Ada.Text_IO.Editing fit in here? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 7:47 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-05 22:43 ` starwars 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: starwars @ 2010-06-05 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw) > How do Interfaces.COBOL and Ada.Text_IO.Editing fit in here? The support is there to do the work, it's just much harder and uglier to do in Ada than COBOL. COBOL has built-in types for money and editing (COMP-3) but in Ada you have to have the Data Processing Annex and unfortunately many toolchains don't offer it. Even with the support, it's painful to do financial reporting on a large scale in Ada. COBOL wins here. It should, it was designed specifically for this above all else. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-24 13:10 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 2:02 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-06-04 21:09 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-04 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Am 24.05.2010, 11:31 Uhr, schrieb Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>: > Which is more shamanism than engineering. I like to point out a true shaman is supposed to make a visit to the other word as part is his initiation. He does it by nibbling some interesting mushrooms. If he returns from his visit to the other world he is welcomed as new member to the community of shamans. If he does not return, ah well guess it was not his calling after all. I wonder what would happen if we applies a similar strict finals to our CS graduates… Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net https://sourceforge.net/users/krischik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 9:00 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-24 13:20 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 2:10 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-24, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> wrote: > Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > >> On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >>> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>>> >>>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>>> on the JSF aircraft project? >>> >>> Money. >>> >>> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >>> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >>> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >>> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >>> >> >> That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for >> using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed >> is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. > > It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the > contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools > and writing good software, that's what would happen. I don't buy it! If if can't make money using the correct tool for the job, thereby generating a safe, workable product, then don't bid the job! Then go out and get provably safe technology, and the best people that you can to use it. Work ethics and pride of workmanship, two values that have gone out the door for the most part, along time ago. Now its all about marketing, shmooze(sp), packaging and making as much money with the least effort. It's all a bunch of bullshit, and so are the products. > It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the > client's job to set the terms of the contract. Spoken like a true capitalist bean-counter - which is OK provided you are not screwing up the environment, and otherwise endangering people's lives and well-being in the process. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 13:20 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-25 2:10 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-25 2:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > On 2010-05-24, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> wrote: >> Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: >> >>> On 2010-05-23, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> wrote: >>>> Bruno Le Hyaric wrote: >>>>> >>>>> One question, why did Lockheed Martin choose C++ for avionics software >>>>> on the JSF aircraft project? >>>> >>>> Money. >>>> >>>> Most US Defense project contracts are set up so the contractor makes more money >>>> the more the project costs. A poor but "popular" language choice, lots of >>>> coders, and no SW engineers is one way to drive the cost up and make more money. >>>> Defense contractors have maximizing the profit down to a fine art. >>>> >>> >>> That's outright scary when you ponder all the implications. So much for >>> using the "right tool, for a particular task". Greed, greed, and more greed >>> is what is putting us at at risk in this embedded computer age. >> >> It's not the contractor's fault; it's the DOD's fault. If they wrote the >> contract so that the contractor made more money by using the right tools >> and writing good software, that's what would happen. > > I don't buy it! If if can't make money using the correct tool for the job, > thereby generating a safe, workable product, then don't bid the job! Right. So someone who is perfectly happy taking the DOD's money, and spending it on bad tools and processes gets the job. So you are agreeing with me. > Then go out and get provably safe technology, and the best people that > you can to use it. Work ethics and pride of workmanship, two values > that have gone out the door for the most part, along time ago. And who is going to buy that? AdaCore customers, for one. But they are not the final consumers. >> It's the contractor's job to make as much money as possible; it's the >> client's job to set the terms of the contract. > > Spoken like a true capitalist bean-counter - which is OK provided you are > not screwing up the environment, and otherwise endangering people's lives > and well-being in the process. Effects on the environment need to be included in the cost of the contract. That we don't do well (or at all) at the moment. But that is the way forward; include the true cost of everyone's activities in a free market, and you will get the results you want. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 13:26 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 16:50 ` Bruno Le Hyaric @ 2010-05-23 18:32 ` (see below) 2010-05-23 19:10 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 7:55 ` Martin 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: (see below) @ 2010-05-23 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke Normandin" <dukeofperl@ml1.net> wrote: > On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: >> Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a >> �crit: >>> Ada continues to attract me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie >>> ...) ;) >> These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what >> are ?domain specific languages?... well, not exactly, but close. >> > > Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore > only good for ..... Not much at all. -- Bill Findlay <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 18:32 ` (see below) @ 2010-05-23 19:10 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 19:22 ` (see below) 2010-05-24 7:55 ` Martin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 19:10 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, (see below) <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke > Normandin" <dukeofperl@ml1.net> wrote: > >> On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: >>> Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a >>> �crit: >>>> Ada continues to attract me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie >>>> ...) ;) >>> These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what >>> are ?domain specific languages?... well, not exactly, but close. >>> >> >> Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore >> only good for ..... > > Not much at all. > Yeah, right! Whatever... ;) -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 19:10 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 19:22 ` (see below) 2010-05-23 19:40 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: (see below) @ 2010-05-23 19:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On 23/05/2010 20:10, in article g4fKn.4602$Z6.1681@edtnps82, "Duke Normandin" <dukeofperl@ml1.net> wrote: > On 2010-05-23, (see below) <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke >> Normandin" <dukeofperl@ml1.net> wrote: >>> Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore >>> only good for ..... >> >> Not much at all. >> > > Yeah, right! Whatever... ;) Tsk. Someone of our advanced years really shouldn't be caught dead \/\/hatevering. 8-) -- Bill Findlay <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 19:22 ` (see below) @ 2010-05-23 19:40 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, (see below) <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > On 23/05/2010 20:10, in article g4fKn.4602$Z6.1681@edtnps82, "Duke > Normandin" <dukeofperl@ml1.net> wrote: > >> On 2010-05-23, (see below) <yaldnif.w@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>> On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke >>> Normandin" <dukeofperl@ml1.net> wrote: >>>> Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore >>>> only good for ..... >>> >>> Not much at all. >>> >> >> Yeah, right! Whatever... ;) > > Tsk. > Someone of our advanced years really shouldn't > be caught dead \/\/hatevering. 8-) > Advanced Years!! \/\/haaaatEVER! ;) Miranda doesn't think so.. :D -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 18:32 ` (see below) 2010-05-23 19:10 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 7:55 ` Martin 2010-05-24 12:05 ` (see below) 2010-05-24 13:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin @ 2010-05-24 7:55 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 23, 7:32 pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke > > Normandin" <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: > > On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duchêne <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> wrote: > >> Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> a > >> écrit: > >>> Ada continues to attract me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie > >>> ...) ;) > >> These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what > >> are ?domain specific languages?... well, not exactly, but close. > > > Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore > > only good for ..... > > Not much at all. > > -- > Bill Findlay > <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk Hi Bill, Why do you say that?... One of my favourite static analysis tools is written in ML...it's definitely useful! -- Martin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 7:55 ` Martin @ 2010-05-24 12:05 ` (see below) 2010-05-24 13:27 ` Martin 2010-05-24 13:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: (see below) @ 2010-05-24 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On 24/05/2010 08:55, in article c7fcdde0-6644-4202-803a-42efff00c8a2@v37g2000vbv.googlegroups.com, "Martin" <martin.dowie@btopenworld.com> wrote: > On May 23, 7:32�pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke >> >> Normandin" <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: >>> On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> wrote: >>>> Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> a >>>> �crit: >>>>> Ada continues to attract me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie >>>>> ...) �;) >>>> These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what >>>> are ?domain specific languages?... well, not exactly, but close. >> >>> Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore >>> only good for ..... >> >> Not much at all. >> >> -- >> Bill Findlay >> <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk > > Hi Bill, > > Why do you say that?... One of my favourite static analysis tools is > written in ML...it's definitely useful! Note that I did not say "good for nothing". 8-) -- Bill Findlay <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 12:05 ` (see below) @ 2010-05-24 13:27 ` Martin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin @ 2010-05-24 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 24, 1:05 pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > On 24/05/2010 08:55, in article > c7fcdde0-6644-4202-803a-42efff00c...@v37g2000vbv.googlegroups.com, "Martin" > > > > <martin.do...@btopenworld.com> wrote: > > On May 23, 7:32 pm, "(see below)" <yaldni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 23/05/2010 14:26, in article 22aKn.4575$Z6.3399@edtnps82, "Duke > > >> Normandin" <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: > >>> On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duchêne <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> wrote: > >>>> Le Fri, 21 May 2010 00:58:26 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> a > >>>> écrit: > >>>>> Ada continues to attract me; but so does Miranda ( and Giselle and Sophie > >>>>> ...) ;) > >>>> These are two very different paths. Miranda would be more close to what > >>>> are ?domain specific languages?... well, not exactly, but close. > > >>> Domain-specific? How so? Because it's a functional language, and therefore > >>> only good for ..... > > >> Not much at all. > > >> -- > >> Bill Findlay > >> <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk > > > Hi Bill, > > > Why do you say that?... One of my favourite static analysis tools is > > written in ML...it's definitely useful! > > Note that I did not say "good for nothing". 8-) > -- > Bill Findlay > <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk I took "Not much at all" to "tend toward" nothing! :-) I rather like functional languages - you have to rotate you mind through 90 degrees to use them if you're used to procedural languages but once you can think in that way, it seems very elegant and natural to me. -- Martin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 7:55 ` Martin 2010-05-24 12:05 ` (see below) @ 2010-05-24 13:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-24 13:40 ` Martin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 24 May 2010 09:55:37 +0200, Martin <martin.dowie@btopenworld.com> a écrit: > Hi Bill, > > Why do you say that?... One of my favourite static analysis tools is > written in ML...it's definitely useful! > > -- Martin Which one please ? Can you be explicit ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 13:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 13:40 ` Martin 2010-05-24 15:19 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin @ 2010-05-24 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 24, 2:28 pm, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Mon, 24 May 2010 09:55:37 +0200, Martin <martin.do...@btopenworld.com> > a écrit:> Hi Bill, > > > Why do you say that?... One of my favourite static analysis tools is > > written in ML...it's definitely useful! > > > -- Martin > > Which one please ? Can you be explicit ? > > -- > There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. PolySpace - it used MLton. -- Martin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 13:40 ` Martin @ 2010-05-24 15:19 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 15:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 24 May 2010 15:40:50 +0200, Martin <martin.dowie@btopenworld.com> a écrit: > PolySpace - it used MLton. > > -- Martin Re-Please, How does it compares to SPARK ? (providing a comparison is meaningful, otherwise, just tell) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:51 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-20 21:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 7:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 21:51:19 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > So it would be fair to say that Ada is truly a "general-purpose" > language? Depends on what means “general-purpose”. What would be a “general-application” ? Not so much relevant. I would say it is good for core implementations, where no higher level paradigms was shown to be better suited ; that is, most of system-level and most of core application-level. For higher levels, there is a galaxy specific-domain-languages which may be better. The frontier may also be the one of safety or efficiency. Draw a line below which efficiency and safety values more (and is most likely to be an issue) than plasticity, then below this line, would suggest Ada, and above this line, may suggest something else. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 21:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 7:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-21 7:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 20 May 2010 23:29:36 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > I would say it is good for core implementations, where no higher level > paradigms was shown to be better suited ; that is, most of system-level > and most of core application-level. For higher levels, there is a galaxy > specific-domain-languages which may be better. 1. They are not higher level. It is a usual misconception. To be closer to the application domain /= higher level. Usually domain-specific languages are of an extremely low level. You normally are unable to develop higher (rather any) abstractions there. You are limited to the built in ones. Domain specific languages usually lack type system, certainly have no user-defined types (ADTs), provide no mechanisms for decompositions etc. You can consider it on the examples of UML, XML, SQL, Simulink etc. 2. They aren't better, at least from the SW engineering POV. Usually you can quickly get the job done for some simple or else well-decoupled case. Far more often you get 80% done. But the rest 20% is almost impossible to accomplish, because these languages are too specialized, too weak, unsuitable for integration, design of large systems, unmaintainable. You will have to write some insertions in a "working" language like Ada. E.g. S-function for Simulink etc. This might work, or not, because there is a question of the ugly SW architecture these languages would impose on your solution. I don't believe in domain-specific languages, 4GL, 5GL etc. I have seen too many of them. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 18:49 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 19:51 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-06-05 8:04 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 9:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-05 8:04 UTC (permalink / raw) On 5/20/2010 11:49 AM, Gautier write-only wrote: > On May 20, 2:53 pm, Duke Normandin wrote: > > >> and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? > > It is excellent in these areas, and probably in many others... > _________________________________________________________ I think the fact that complex numbers are not a build-in primitive data type in Ada makes it bit harder to use for number crunching. Fortran, for example, had complex numbers build into the language. I wonder why the orginal designers did not add complex data type to the design of Ada. Other than that, I think Ada would be a very good choice for number crunching, but from what I see, it is very little used in this area. --Nasser ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 8:04 ` Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-05 9:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 12:27 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 9:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:04:52 +0200, Nasser M. Abbasi <nma@12000.org> a écrit: >>> and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number >>> crunching, graphics, etc? >> > >> It is excellent in these areas, and probably in many others... >> _________________________________________________________ > > I think the fact that complex numbers are not a build-in primitive data > type in Ada makes it bit harder to use for number crunching. > > Fortran, for example, had complex numbers build into the language. I > wonder why the orginal designers did not add complex data type to the > design of Ada. > > Other than that, I think Ada would be a very good choice for number > crunching, but from what I see, it is very little used in this area. > > --Nasser May be possible reason is that a complex number is seen a composite type, and how would one fix the type of its two component ? Float ? Fixed ? Both the same ? Different ? And so on. Unless with a special ugly/heavy syntax, difficult to image a way to simply declare a complex type in Ada (unless you do it the C way : one type for all use, without constraints, and no other choices). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 9:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 12:27 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Simon Wright @ 2010-06-05 12:27 UTC (permalink / raw) "Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)" <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> writes: > May be possible reason is that a complex number is seen a composite > type, and how would one fix the type of its two component ? Float ? > Fixed ? Both the same ? Different ? And so on. Unless with a special > ugly/heavy syntax, difficult to image a way to simply declare a > complex type in Ada (unless you do it the C way : one type for all > use, without constraints, and no other choices). ARM Annex G? http://www.adaic.com/standards/05rm/html/RM-G-1.html I'm not a mathematician (as a physicist) but I can't imagine why you would want the two components of a complex number to have different base types. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 9:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 12:27 ` Simon Wright @ 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 13:39 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 12:59 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:24:57 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:04:52 +0200, Nasser M. Abbasi <nma@12000.org> a > �crit: >>>> and in what area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number >>>> crunching, graphics, etc? >> >>> It is excellent in these areas, and probably in many others... >>> _________________________________________________________ >> >> I think the fact that complex numbers are not a build-in primitive data >> type in Ada makes it bit harder to use for number crunching. >> >> Fortran, for example, had complex numbers build into the language. I >> wonder why the orginal designers did not add complex data type to the >> design of Ada. >> >> Other than that, I think Ada would be a very good choice for number >> crunching, but from what I see, it is very little used in this area. >> > May be possible reason is that a complex number is seen a composite type, > and how would one fix the type of its two component ? Float ? Fixed ? Both > the same ? Different ? And so on. Unless with a special ugly/heavy syntax, > difficult to image a way to simply declare a complex type in Ada (unless > you do it the C way : one type for all use, without constraints, and no > other choices). Sorry guys, maybe I missed the point, but Ada does have complex types. See ARM G.1. As for different types of the real and imaginary parts, it would make little or no sense because you can "rotate" numbers by multiplying them to exp(j*angle). So the complex space must be isotropic with regard to precision and range. This speaks for same types. As for syntax, Ada syntax of record aggregates maps the standard mathematical notation of, i.e. (Re, Im). Naturally Re+j*Im and Re+i*Im are also supported since the package Complex_Types defines the constants i and j. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 13:39 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 21:16 ` Maciej Sobczak 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 14:59:11 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > Sorry guys, maybe I missed the point, but Ada does have complex types. > See > ARM G.1. I miss-understood the question, indeed (don't know why I had read it this way, I had read it as if it was requesting for a type which could be declared like range and so on) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 13:39 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff ` (3 more replies) 2010-06-05 21:16 ` Maciej Sobczak 2 siblings, 4 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-05 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw) On 6/5/2010 5:59 AM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > Sorry guys, maybe I missed the point, but Ada does have complex types. See > ARM G.1. > I meant complex type in ada is not an elementary type. as in http://www.adaic.org/standards/05rm/html/RM-3-2.html "The elementary types are the scalar types (discrete and real) and the access types (whose values provide access to objects or subprograms). Discrete types are either integer types or are defined by enumeration of their values (enumeration types). Real types are either floating point types or fixed point types." and http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Type_System I copied the list from above: "Here is a broad overview of each category of types; please follow the links for detailed explanations. Inside parenthesis there are equivalences in C and Pascal for readers familiar with those languages." Signed Integers (int, INTEGER) Unsigned Integers (unsigned, CARDINAL) unsigned they also have wrap-around functionality. Enumerations (enum, char, bool, BOOLEAN) Floating point (float, double, REAL) Ordinary and Decimal Fixed Point (DECIMAL) Arrays ( [ ], ARRAY [ ] OF, STRING ) Record (struct, class, RECORD OF) Access (*, ^, POINTER TO) Task & Protected (no equivalence in C or Pascal) Interfaces (no equivalence in C or Pascal) I do not see complex type there :) Ofcourse, a standard generic package for complex type, I knew that. In FORTRAN: http://www.fortran.com/F77_std/rjcnf-4.html#sh-4 "4.1 Data Types The six types of data are: 1. Integer 2. Real 3. Double precision 4. Complex 5. Logical 6. Character " So, complex is an elementary type, like an integer is. I am learning to use complex numbers in Ada from wiki Ada book, was looking at the examples here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Mathematical_calculations#Complex_arithmethic and it seem many packages need to be instantiated just to use complex numbers. with Ada.Text_IO.Complex_IO; with Ada.Numerics.Generic_Complex_Types; with Ada.Numerics.Generic_Complex_Elementary_Functions; etc.. I just meant it seems "easier" to use complex numbers in FORTRAN than Ada, just because one does not to do all this instantiating every where. But I hope to learn to use complex numbers better in Ada, I have very little experiences with this in Ada. --Nasser ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 20:14 ` (see below) 2010-06-09 6:31 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 19:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2010-06-05 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw) "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes: > I meant complex type in ada is not an elementary type. Complex cannot be an elementary type, because it has components (real and imaginary parts). That's what "elementary" means in Ada -- no components. > I just meant it seems "easier" to use complex numbers in FORTRAN than > Ada, just because one does not to do all this instantiating every > where. You don't have to instantiate everywhere. If you're willing to stick to the predefined floating point types (Float, Long_Float, etc), then you can use Ada.Numerics.Elementary_Functions, Ada.Numerics.Long_Elementary_Functions, etc. And of course if you're NOT willing to stick to the predefined floating point types, then you won't be using Fortran anyway, so there's no comparison. Is there anything else? I mean reasons why complex in Fortran is "easier" than in Ada? - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff @ 2010-06-05 20:14 ` (see below) 2010-06-06 7:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-09 6:31 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: (see below) @ 2010-06-05 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw) On 05/06/2010 19:50, in article wcchblh9uw6.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com, "Robert A Duff" <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote: > "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes: > >> I meant complex type in ada is not an elementary type. > > Complex cannot be an elementary type, because it has components > (real and imaginary parts). That's what "elementary" means > in Ada -- no components. > >> I just meant it seems "easier" to use complex numbers in FORTRAN than >> Ada, just because one does not to do all this instantiating every >> where. > > You don't have to instantiate everywhere. If you're willing to stick > to the predefined floating point types (Float, Long_Float, etc), > then you can use Ada.Numerics.Elementary_Functions, > Ada.Numerics.Long_Elementary_Functions, etc. I've never understood the objection to "all this instantiating every where". How much effort is a line or three of boilerplate code? -- Bill Findlay <surname><forename> chez blueyonder.co.uk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 20:14 ` (see below) @ 2010-06-06 7:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 7:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 7:25 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:14:53 +0100, (see below) wrote: > I've never understood the objection to "all this instantiating every where". > How much effort is a line or three of boilerplate code? Geometrically exploding... -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 7:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 7:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 7:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 7:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 09:25:59 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: >> I've never understood the objection to "all this instantiating every >> where". >> How much effort is a line or three of boilerplate code? > > Geometrically exploding... As this is about genericity, I would like to understand: what kind of curve is one “Geometrically exploding” ? I could not find a simple explanation on the web and don't have anything in my background about it. I remember in the past (past year I think), we talked around generics hierarchy and generic packages as formal parameters. You had warned about possible complexity explosion in this area: is this about the same ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 7:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 7:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 8:25 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 7:46 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 09:38:21 +0200, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 09:25:59 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: >>> I've never understood the objection to "all this instantiating every >>> where". >>> How much effort is a line or three of boilerplate code? >> >> Geometrically exploding... > As this is about genericity, I would like to understand: what kind of > curve is one “Geometrically exploding” ? = exponentially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression > I remember in the past (past year I think), we talked around generics > hierarchy and generic packages as formal parameters. You had warned about > possible complexity explosion in this area: is this about the same ? Yep. Once generic always generic. Two generics make four instantiations. And the mill starts milling... -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 7:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 8:25 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 9:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 8:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 09:46:28 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > = exponentially > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression OK, a quasi-synonym >> I remember in the past (past year I think), we talked around generics >> hierarchy and generic packages as formal parameters. You had warned >> about >> possible complexity explosion in this area: is this about the same ? > > Yep. Once generic always generic. Two generics make four instantiations. > And the mill starts milling... This path is not the only one way. There can be instantiations to be used as basic components. Generics does not provide just a way to declare things, this also gives a way to implement, and implementation is an hidden thing (or else private at least). Generic origin of a type can be hidden (as an example) ; while obviously, some relationships are then lost. This can lead into an combinatorial explosion, right ; except “can” is not “always” (while I agree to say it can comes faster than supposed, and recurrence/recursivity should be in mind here while designing). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 8:25 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 9:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 11:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 9:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 10:25:11 +0200, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 09:46:28 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: >> = exponentially >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression > OK, a quasi-synonym And, maybe, you have a chance of having it not geometric, but combinatorial... (:-)) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_explosion >>> I remember in the past (past year I think), we talked around generics >>> hierarchy and generic packages as formal parameters. You had warned >>> about >>> possible complexity explosion in this area: is this about the same ? >> >> Yep. Once generic always generic. Two generics make four instantiations. >> And the mill starts milling... > This path is not the only one way. There can be instantiations to be used > as basic components. Generics does not provide just a way to declare > things, this also gives a way to implement, and implementation is an > hidden thing (or else private at least). Generic origin of a type can be > hidden (as an example) ; while obviously, some relationships are then lost. > > This can lead into an combinatorial explosion, right ; except “can” is not > “always” (while I agree to say it can comes faster than supposed, and > recurrence/recursivity should be in mind here while designing). Normally you wanted to postpone instantiation to as late as possible. But any delayed instantiation means a generic formal parameter in another generics and so it leads to the explosion at the point where you ultimately instantiate the mess. This is not a problem for small projects. That is why most Ada people don't see generics as a problem. Add here that generics are non-testable. You can test instances, you cannot generics. Then Ada has been drifting towards C++ in the sense what promises gives you a successful compilation of the generic body, little, very little, nothing... But if you force yourself to instantiate earlier, you get a very fragile design. Generics are against good design. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 9:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 11:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 11:45 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 11:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:22:07 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > But if you force yourself to instantiate earlier, you get a very fragile Don't see a reason why ; and this even seems contradictory to me: the earlier you instantiate, the less complex it is. Or not ? > design. Generics are against good design. Suppose that is true, then this suggest to choose to use generic is a bad design choice. An example objection could be, when a generic is used, other ways may have been evaluated and excluded for some reasons. Or is Ada missing something so that people don't have any other choice than generic (generic as a fall-back) ? What could this other paradigm could looks like then ? (George would be interested in this I suppose) In the area of other choices, would automatic generation or simply copy be a better choice (as this is one of the cases generics avoid) ? I feel it would be even less usable. Your comments suggest this interesting question about what could be alternatives to generics. > Add here that generics are non-testable. You can test instances, you > cannot generics. Then Ada has been drifting towards C++ in the sense > what promises gives you a successful compilation of the generic > body, little, very little, nothing... (another matter this one) This is not like if generics could be instantiated with anything. Actually, this is not: you can require a formal parameter to be a discrete type, to be derived from another type, etc. So some assertions can be made on the validity of a generic's logic and implementation. Perhaps you are requesting for more ways to constrain formal parameters ? (I would agree with you, unless SPARK already support generics, which I have still not tested so far). Oops, I have implicitly replaced “testable” by “provable”, hope you don't mind. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 11:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 11:45 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 12:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 13:06:45 +0200, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 11:22:07 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: >> But if you force yourself to instantiate earlier, you get a very fragile > Don't see a reason why ; and this even seems contradictory to me: the > earlier you instantiate, the less complex it is. Or not ? Less complex and more fragile, because of premature decisions to meet. The package Generic_Complex_Types requires the type Real to instantiate. You have to define this type, range, precision etc. Later on, if the choice might appear wrong, you will have a huge problem, if the instance is widely used. A typical solution is to pass the instance as a parameter of another generics. Welcome to the Hell... > An example objection could be, when a generic is used, > other ways may have been evaluated and excluded for some reasons. Right, just like gotos. > Or is > Ada missing something so that people don't have any other choice than > generic (generic as a fall-back) ? What could this other paradigm could > looks like then ? Dynamic polymorphism, abstract types, interface inheritance, constraining (discriminants), static functions. > In the area of other choices, would automatic generation or simply copy be > a better choice (as this is one of the cases generics avoid) ? I feel it > would be even less usable. Probably yes. Macro is a macro, even if you call it generics or template. >> Add here that generics are non-testable. You can test instances, you >> cannot generics. Then Ada has been drifting towards C++ in the sense >> what promises gives you a successful compilation of the generic >> body, little, very little, nothing... > (another matter this one) > This is not like if generics could be instantiated with anything. > Actually, this is not: you can require a formal parameter to be a discrete > type, to be derived from another type, etc. Yes. The language of generics regarding its formal parameters: C++: untyped Ada: typed, types are built-in, no abstract/user types whatsoever Must-be: ADT + OO ... too much work to invest into a meta language. Why not to concentrate on the object language, i.e. on the core Ada type system? > So some assertions can be made > on the validity of a generic's logic and implementation. Some, but as I said Ada drifts towards less checks. You can (and will) get errors upon instantiation even if actual parameters match the formals! > Perhaps you are > requesting for more ways to constrain formal parameters ? (I would agree > with you, unless SPARK already support generics, which I have still not > tested so far). > > Oops, I have implicitly replaced “testable” by “provable”, hope you don't > mind. I do. If you'd make them provable you would need not to test. The problem is that for generics provability is much harder than for the object language. The same question again. Why not to concentrate on the core Ada and integrate SPARK there? To me generics is a dead end. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 11:45 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 12:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 13:45:48 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > Less complex and more fragile, because of premature decisions to meet. > The > package Generic_Complex_Types requires the type Real to instantiate. You > have to define this type, range, precision etc. Later on, if the choice > might appear wrong, you will have a huge problem, if the instance is > widely > used. A typical solution is to pass the instance as a parameter of > another > generics. Welcome to the Hell... > Dynamic polymorphism, abstract types, interface inheritance, constraining > (discriminants), static functions. I guess for Complex you would like constraining discriminants. The funny part is that I actually see generics as a way to define ADT. > Probably yes. Macro is a macro, even if you call it generics or template. You can pass anything to macro. Generics are safer at least for this reason. > Yes. The language of generics regarding its formal parameters: OK. I understand what you have in mind. > I do. If you'd make them provable you would need not to test. The problem > is that for generics provability is much harder than for the object > language. The same question again. Why not to concentrate on the core Ada > and integrate SPARK there? Would be great! :-) (would have to make SPARK a bit more predictable by the way... I have some idea in the area of SPARK, but this would make it different than what it actually is, and I feel this would be a lonesome story) Finally we end up in this oooold story about Ada, the most famous Ada issue : right at the beginning, someones were already suggesting to focus on a more core language, to better focus on what is the most relevant. > Some, but as I said Ada drifts towards less checks. Really ? I don't feel so much and don't believe most interested parties will allow it. The introduction of DbC in the Ada 2012 language itself, even goes the opposite way. Isn't it ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 12:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 21:22 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 12:58 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:38:21 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > I guess for Complex you would like constraining discriminants. I would rather like to see Complex an implementation of field. We need working interfaces instead of Java-like mess. > The funny part is that I actually see generics as a way to define ADT. A very poor way. >> Probably yes. Macro is a macro, even if you call it generics or template. > You can pass anything to macro. Generics are safer at least for this > reason. To put a hand grenade in your pocket, is safer than in the mouth... >> Some, but as I said Ada drifts towards less checks. > Really ? I don't feel so much and don't believe most interested parties > will allow it. > The introduction of DbC in the Ada 2012 language itself, even goes the > opposite way. Isn't it ? You forgot that run-time check is not a check to me. It is a language design bug. I am afraid I will like Ada 2012 even less than Ada 2005. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 21:22 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 7:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 7:56 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 12:58 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-06 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On 6/6/10 3:10 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>> Some, but as I said Ada drifts towards less checks. >> Really ? I don't feel so much and don't believe most interested parties >> will allow it. >> The introduction of DbC in the Ada 2012 language itself, even goes the >> opposite way. Isn't it ? > > You forgot that run-time check is not a check to me. It is a language > design bug. I am afraid I will like Ada 2012 even less than Ada 2005. It seems worthwhile mentioning that DbC's primary purpose is not to augment programs with run-time checks; rather, DbC asks for programmers who write as if there was no assertion monitoring but who explain their code with pre/post/inv. The operator may turn on run-time monitoring so that he/she is notified if something goes wrong (disproving the programmers' assumptions; the monitor stops the program or runs the remains in a debugger). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 21:22 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 7:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 7:56 ` Martin Krischik 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 7:26 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:22:15 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 6/6/10 3:10 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > >>>> Some, but as I said Ada drifts towards less checks. >>> Really ? I don't feel so much and don't believe most interested parties >>> will allow it. >>> The introduction of DbC in the Ada 2012 language itself, even goes the >>> opposite way. Isn't it ? >> >> You forgot that run-time check is not a check to me. It is a language >> design bug. I am afraid I will like Ada 2012 even less than Ada 2005. > > It seems worthwhile mentioning that DbC's primary purpose > is not to augment programs with run-time checks; rather, DbC asks > for programmers who write as if there was no assertion monitoring > but who explain their code with pre/post/inv. The operator may > turn on run-time monitoring so that he/she is notified if something goes > wrong (disproving the programmers' assumptions; the monitor stops > the program or runs the remains in a debugger). Yes, and this manifests a language design bug to me. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 21:22 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 7:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 7:56 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 11:13 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-07 7:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Am 06.06.2010, 23:22 Uhr, schrieb Georg Bauhaus <rm-host.bauhaus@maps.futureapps.de>: > On 6/6/10 3:10 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > It seems worthwhile mentioning that DbC's primary purpose > is not to augment programs with run-time checks; rather, DbC asks > for programmers who write as if there was no assertion monitoring > but who explain their code with pre/post/inv. The operator may > turn on run-time monitoring so that he/she is notified if something goes > wrong (disproving the programmers' assumptions; the monitor stops > the program or runs the remains in a debugger). Sounds a lot like Java assertions. We makes me think: If the captain thinks that there might be icebergs on route he orders to take on live boats. If not he leaves them at shore to save petrol and gain extra speed. The later is default if the captain forgets to make a decision. Or worse: If the captain does not believe the engineer that the ship is unsinkable he orders to take on of live boats. If not … Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net https://sourceforge.net/users/krischik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 7:56 ` Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-07 11:13 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 12:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 12:56 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 11:13 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 09:56, Martin Krischik wrote: > Am 06.06.2010, 23:22 Uhr, schrieb Georg Bauhaus > <rm-host.bauhaus@maps.futureapps.de>: > >> On 6/6/10 3:10 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > >> It seems worthwhile mentioning that DbC's primary purpose >> is not to augment programs with run-time checks; rather, DbC asks >> for programmers who write as if there was no assertion monitoring >> but who explain their code with pre/post/inv. The operator may >> turn on run-time monitoring so that he/she is notified if something goes >> wrong (disproving the programmers' assumptions; the monitor stops >> the program or runs the remains in a debugger). > > Sounds a lot like Java assertions. We makes me think: > > If the captain thinks that there might be icebergs on route he orders to > take on live boats. If not he leaves them at shore to save petrol and > gain extra speed. The later is default if the captain forgets to make a > decision. A captain requesting lifeboats does not prepare for exception handling. You use lifeboats when the ship sinks, the ship's components have failed, possibly after an impact of unexpected I/O (an iceberg popping up, say). By analogy, sinking is when the program stops. DbC, however, has to do with designing components of the ship. You can have rescue clauses (exception handlers) in DbC. But the idea is that a correct program is better. Yet, praising one-self to be preparing for exceptional situations is only as safe normal flow of control within and from exception handlers---if they are at all prepared to handle a situation. Exceptional situations is "unprogrammed" exceptional state, since this is what "exceptional" is about, if anything. And if a hammer turns out to be made of wood, some contract is broken. If no one thought of such a preposterous choice of material for a hammer, it will be reasonable to expect there is no handler for this outcome. Hence no rescue clause. Next ship will have a type, though, that allows distinguishing different kinds of hammer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 11:13 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 12:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 14:12 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 12:56 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:13:18 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > DbC, however, has to do with designing components of the ship. > You can have rescue clauses (exception handlers) > in DbC. To whom should Titanic have sent the exception? To the humpback whales? > Exceptional situations is "unprogrammed" exceptional state, > since this is what "exceptional" is about, if anything. Any state is programmed. This includes the exceptional ones. When bug happens, the program is in no state. > And if a hammer turns out to be made of wood, > some contract is broken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallet -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 12:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 14:12 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:31 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 14:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:13:18 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > >> DbC, however, has to do with designing components of the ship. >> You can have rescue clauses (exception handlers) >> in DbC. > > To whom should Titanic have sent the exception? To the humpback whales? As I said, this is not an exception raised in some component part, the ship is damaged and is going to sind. The frame of reference for "exceptional" is a different one. >> Exceptional situations is "unprogrammed" exceptional state, >> since this is what "exceptional" is about, if anything. > > Any state is programmed. In an trivial sense, yes, every exceptional state is a state.... "Boring!", as some say. > This includes the exceptional ones. When bug > happens, the program is in no state. Erh, are you sure? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 14:12 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 14:31 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 14:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a écrit: >> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >> happens, the program is in no state. > > Erh, are you sure? May be when the CPU enters a double-fault state ? (half-joking) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 14:12 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:31 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 14:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:00 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >> happens, the program is in no state. > > Erh, are you sure? Yes I am. Any program state is defined, it has some sematic interpretation in the domain. Bug is when you have lost this synchronization. Meaningless state is no state. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 14:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 15:00 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 15:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 16:51, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > >> On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > >>> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >>> happens, the program is in no state. >> >> Erh, are you sure? > > Yes I am. Any program state is defined, it has some sematic interpretation > in the domain. Bug is when you have lost this synchronization. Meaningless > state is no state. Then what constitutes a bug? procedure add_to_account(Number: in out Account_ID; sum: Money) is client_account: Account := Find_Account(Number); begin -- FIXME: not ready, using dummy account client_account := Make_new_Account; end add_to_account; ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 15:00 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 15:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:28 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 15:50 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:00:07 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 07.06.10 16:51, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >> On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >> >>> On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >> >>>> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >>>> happens, the program is in no state. >>> >>> Erh, are you sure? >> >> Yes I am. Any program state is defined, it has some sematic interpretation >> in the domain. Bug is when you have lost this synchronization. Meaningless >> state is no state. > > Then what constitutes a bug? > > procedure add_to_account(Number: in out Account_ID; sum: Money) is > client_account: Account := Find_Account(Number); > begin > -- FIXME: not ready, using dummy account > client_account := Make_new_Account; > end add_to_account; Where is a problem? -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 15:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 15:28 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 15:50 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-07 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Am 07.06.2010, 17:09 Uhr, schrieb Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:00:07 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > >> On 07.06.10 16:51, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>> On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >>> >>>> On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>> >>>>> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >>>>> happens, the program is in no state. >>>> >>>> Erh, are you sure? >>> >>> Yes I am. Any program state is defined, it has some sematic >>> interpretation >>> in the domain. Bug is when you have lost this synchronization. >>> Meaningless >>> state is no state. >> >> Then what constitutes a bug? >> >> procedure add_to_account(Number: in out Account_ID; sum: Money) is >> client_account: Account := Find_Account(Number); >> begin >> -- FIXME: not ready, using dummy account >> client_account := Make_new_Account; >> end add_to_account; > > Where is a problem? He should not have called Make_new_Account and the add promised by the name of the function never happens. Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net https://sourceforge.net/users/krischik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 15:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:28 ` Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-07 15:50 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 16:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 17:09, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:00:07 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > >> On 07.06.10 16:51, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>> On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >>> >>>> On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>> >>>>> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >>>>> happens, the program is in no state. >>>> >>>> Erh, are you sure? >>> >>> Yes I am. Any program state is defined, it has some sematic interpretation >>> in the domain. Bug is when you have lost this synchronization. Meaningless >>> state is no state. >> >> Then what constitutes a bug? >> >> procedure add_to_account(Number: in out Account_ID; sum: Money) is >> client_account: Account := Find_Account(Number); >> begin >> -- FIXME: not ready, using dummy account >> client_account := Make_new_Account; >> end add_to_account; > > Where is a problem? The above program, if it enters production, has a bug, IMHO: if Passed_In > 0.0 then Lock.Seize; was := amount_in_account(123); add_to_account(123, sum => Passed_In); is := amount_in_account(123); Lock.Release; -- assume add_to_account is correct send(other_bank, is - was); Program state is meaningful, if buggy. Or are you defining a bug to be a state of the program to which you are unable to assign meaning? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 15:50 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 16:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:50:25 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 07.06.10 17:09, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >> On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:00:07 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >> >>> On 07.06.10 16:51, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>>> On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:12:38 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 07.06.10 14:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >>>> >>>>>> This includes the exceptional ones. When bug >>>>>> happens, the program is in no state. >>>>> >>>>> Erh, are you sure? >>>> >>>> Yes I am. Any program state is defined, it has some sematic interpretation >>>> in the domain. Bug is when you have lost this synchronization. Meaningless >>>> state is no state. >>> >>> Then what constitutes a bug? >>> >>> procedure add_to_account(Number: in out Account_ID; sum: Money) is >>> client_account: Account := Find_Account(Number); >>> begin >>> -- FIXME: not ready, using dummy account >>> client_account := Make_new_Account; >>> end add_to_account; >> >> Where is a problem? > > The above program, if it enters production, has > a bug, IMHO: Yes, but it does not mean that the code has a bug. Stubs, mocks, emulators are *valid* programs. They have the contracts of their own, though related to the production contract. It is not a language issue, but of the unit test tool to prevent a stub to be linked in the production code. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 11:13 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 12:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 12:56 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 13:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:13:18 +0200, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a écrit: > DbC, however, has to do with designing components of the ship. > You can have rescue clauses (exception handlers) > in DbC. Yes, DnC is rather part of design than part of the application. This may not be perfect (words to Dmitry), while this still help to focus on design. BTW, nobody claimed DbC as proposed for Ada 2012 was sufficient to prove a program. Ada also has an expected role in pedagogy, and DbC can help it to play this role. I believe this way of DbC is most likely to attract people than a more strict one (two teachers here said even students tend to avoid designing... so try to figure what the crowd's behavior can be) like SPARK (which is neither perfect for some practical reasons although it perfectly sounds). The important fact is that it is a step toward without any step backward. I neither believe the proposed DbC will ever bloat Ada or give it any weakness holes. I agree with you (still talking to Dmitry), when you complain, as an example, generics comes with numerous troubles ; however, if a comparison was to be made, we will probably see Ada's DbC will comes with far less troubles (in the program proof area) than generics which are already there from long. There is no reason to focus on Ada 2012 DbC as a potential source of trouble. May be an opportunity to ask (a second time) for a question I have in mind: will SPARK (in the future) get benefit from Ada's DbC annotations ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 12:56 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 13:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:56:54 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:13:18 +0200, Georg Bauhaus > <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a �crit: >> DbC, however, has to do with designing components of the ship. >> You can have rescue clauses (exception handlers) >> in DbC. > Yes, DnC is rather part of design than part of the application. > > This may not be perfect (words to Dmitry), while this still help to focus > on design. I fail to see how misleading stuff may focus on design. Executable contracts is just rubbish. They will rather distract from design in favor debugging. Ada was designed as a language of little or no debugging. Unfortunately it rapidly loses the ground. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 13:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 15:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 14:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 14:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 15:27, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:56:54 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > >> Le Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:13:18 +0200, Georg Bauhaus >> <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a �crit: >>> DbC, however, has to do with designing components of the ship. >>> You can have rescue clauses (exception handlers) >>> in DbC. >> Yes, DnC is rather part of design than part of the application. >> >> This may not be perfect (words to Dmitry), while this still help to focus >> on design. > > I fail to see how misleading stuff may focus on design. Executable > contracts is just rubbish. Not all DbC contracts need to be executable. Their being executalbe is considered accidental, not essential; Ada's aspect notation would not currently support this, though, IIUC. > They will rather distract from design in favor > debugging. We'll see. I still wonder why one would not want to specify more than the subtype constraints can achieve (without contorted(?) emulation of another type system). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 14:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 15:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 14:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:09:37 +0200, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a écrit: > I still wonder why one would not want to > specify more than the subtype constraints can achieve Indeed, I oftenly had this in mind (what a type system will never be able to do). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 15:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:34 ` Martin Krischik 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:09:37 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 07.06.10 15:27, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >> They will rather distract from design in favor >> debugging. > > We'll see. I still wonder why one would not want to > specify more than the subtype constraints can achieve > (without contorted(?) emulation of another type system). To specify? You have used an improper word. The correct on is *to program*. I have nothing against programming. Just don't sell me this as specifications. They are not. And I certainly don't want *parts* of the program being turned off by compiler switches. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 15:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 15:34 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 16:25 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-07 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Am 07.06.2010, 17:05 Uhr, schrieb Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>: > And I certainly don't want *parts* of the > program being turned off by compiler switches. In Java it is even worse: Parts of your program are switched on by runtime switches. See the -enableassertions. Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net https://sourceforge.net/users/krischik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 15:34 ` Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-07 16:25 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 16:30 ` Georg Bauhaus ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 17:34, Martin Krischik wrote: > Am 07.06.2010, 17:05 Uhr, schrieb Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>: > >> And I certainly don't want *parts* of the >> program being turned off by compiler switches. > > In Java it is even worse: Parts of your program are switched on by > runtime switches. See the -enableassertions. -enableassertions, pragma Assertion_Policy, translation options like choice of exception handling mechanism, optimization, -gnato, they all effect a different program. They do so following language rules. What's so special about having an option for monitoring the program via assertions? Assertions work on boolean expressions. A can't think of a commandment obliging the programmer to force side effects into his/her boolean expressions. (And then selling the program without pointing out to the operators that assertion monitoring may lead to this and that effect.) Indeed, if you follow the rules of DbC, then assertion monitoring is *never* to touch the logic of your components. "Tampers with elements/cursors" in Ada.Containers isn't that different I think. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 16:25 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 16:30 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 17:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-08 6:54 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On 07.06.10 18:25, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > "Tampers with elements/cursors" in Ada.Containers > isn't that different I think. Meaning that if you want high speed children of Ada.Containers, you perform these checks in predicates inside Assert pragmas and turn them off once you have reason to trust your program. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 16:25 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 16:30 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 17:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-08 6:54 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 18:25:35 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 07.06.10 17:34, Martin Krischik wrote: >> Am 07.06.2010, 17:05 Uhr, schrieb Dmitry A. Kazakov >> <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>: >> >>> And I certainly don't want *parts* of the >>> program being turned off by compiler switches. >> >> In Java it is even worse: Parts of your program are switched on by >> runtime switches. See the -enableassertions. > > -enableassertions, pragma Assertion_Policy, translation > options like choice of exception handling mechanism, > optimization, -gnato, they all effect a different program. > They do so following language rules. Which are designed to honor the principle "Don't touch the program semantics!" > What's so special > about having an option for monitoring the program > via assertions? That assertions do not obey the above principle => if that is the language rule, then that rule is a language design bug. Assertions are against good design, because Assertion_Error is a welcome excuse for a lazy programmer not to consider what shall be the consequences of the program entering an undesired state. He does not even to care to *name* this problem appropriately. It is just Assertion_Error. Even Oops : Exception; were better! -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 16:25 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 16:30 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 17:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-08 6:54 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2010-06-08 6:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Am 07.06.2010, 18:25 Uhr, schrieb Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de>: > What's so special > about having an option for monitoring the program > via assertions? I want an option to define the default via MANIFEST.MF. But then I guess the designers did not want that to prevent misuse. Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net https://sourceforge.net/users/krischik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 13:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 14:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:27:45 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > They will rather distract from design in favor > debugging. As an old Eiffel “advocator”, I can say no, as long as you read contract clauses before using any component holding such a contract (just like you have to know the signature of a subprogram before being able to use it). And whenever an error occurred, which is caught (likely early) by a clause violation, you then have an interpretation of the error. There is nothing like an interpretation, when in a debugger, you see this variable X has this value Y which turns into the Z behavior. Even if a clause violation pass control to a debugger (I had created my own in that purpose with SmallEiffel), you still have a debugger with an interpretation of an erroneous state. > Ada was designed as a language of little or no debugging. > Unfortunately it rapidly loses the ground. Agree. But there is no magic keyword, no magic syntactic construct, this target needs paradigm, process and construction techniques. And this is the purpose of DbC. Ada needs something to target “little or no debugging”, it cannot do it by-itself. I agree there are other ways, more strict and formal ways to achieve the same, ... however, this would unlikely meet a large community agreement (for the reasons given before). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-06 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 21:22 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-06-07 12:58 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 13:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:10:48 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > To put a hand grenade in your pocket, is safer than in the mouth... This picture has no foundation to me (an arbitrary picture which does not represent any relevant measurements of what the reality is) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-07 12:58 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-07 13:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-07 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:58:37 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:10:48 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a �crit: >> To put a hand grenade in your pocket, is safer than in the mouth... > This picture has no foundation to me (an arbitrary picture which does not > represent any relevant measurements of what the reality is) It illustrates meaningless of comparisons like "safer" taken out of context. Maybe better one would be: NASA trained astronauts to climb trees, because being on a tree you would be closer to the Moon. Identifiers as goto labels in Ada are safer than numeric labels in FORTRAN. Did that make gotos better? Yes, it did. Does that justify use of gotos? By no means. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 20:14 ` (see below) @ 2010-06-09 6:31 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-09 16:26 ` Robert A Duff 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-09 6:31 UTC (permalink / raw) On 6/5/2010 11:50 AM, Robert A Duff wrote: > "Nasser M. Abbasi"<nma@12000.org> writes: > >> I just meant it seems "easier" to use complex numbers in FORTRAN than >> Ada, just because one does not to do all this instantiating every >> where. > > You don't have to instantiate everywhere. If you're willing to stick > to the predefined floating point types (Float, Long_Float, etc), > then you can use Ada.Numerics.Elementary_Functions, > Ada.Numerics.Long_Elementary_Functions, etc. > I am looking at it now, and you are right, there is Ada.Numerics.Complex_Elementary_Functions and Ada.Numerics.Complex_Types predefined to float. So no need to instantiate. But why no predefined package for complex IO also? Ada.Text_IO.Complex_IO is generic package, and I have to instantiate it for float to do complex IO? May be I overlooked something. I am using GNAT 4.3.4 thanks --Nasser ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-09 6:31 ` Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-09 16:26 ` Robert A Duff 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2010-06-09 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw) "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes: > But why no predefined package for complex IO also? These are also defined by the language, and implemented in GNAT: Ada.Complex_Text_IO (a-coteio.ads) Ada.Long_Complex_Text_IO (a-lcteio.ads) Ada.Long_Long_Complex_Text_IO (a-llctio.ads) Ada.Short_Complex_Text_IO (a-scteio.ads) > Ada.Text_IO.Complex_IO is generic package, and I have to instantiate it > for float to do complex IO? May be I overlooked something. They're easy to overlook in the RM, because the entire package spec is not shown -- just a short paragraph describing what they look like. See G.1.3(9.1/2). As far as I know, all of the generic numerics stuff has pre-instantiated versions for Float, Long_Float, etc. - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff @ 2010-06-05 19:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 22:56 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 20:15 ` John B. Matthews 2010-06-06 4:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:02:36 -0700, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote: > On 6/5/2010 5:59 AM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > > >> Sorry guys, maybe I missed the point, but Ada does have complex types. See >> ARM G.1. >> > I meant complex type in ada is not an elementary type. as in BTW, as the name suggest "complex" is not "elementary"! (:-)) > http://www.adaic.org/standards/05rm/html/RM-3-2.html > > "The elementary types are the scalar types (discrete and real) and the > access types (whose values provide access to objects or subprograms). > Discrete types are either integer types or are defined by enumeration of > their values (enumeration types). Real types are either floating point > types or fixed point types." Well, in fact I don't know why ARM defines that, because beyond the name there is nothing that could distinguish them from other types. > and > > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Type_System > > I copied the list from above: > > "Here is a broad overview of each category of types; please follow the > links for detailed explanations. Inside parenthesis there are > equivalences in C and Pascal for readers familiar with those languages." > > Signed Integers (int, INTEGER) > Unsigned Integers (unsigned, CARDINAL) > unsigned they also have wrap-around functionality. > Enumerations (enum, char, bool, BOOLEAN) > Floating point (float, double, REAL) > Ordinary and Decimal Fixed Point (DECIMAL) > Arrays ( [ ], ARRAY [ ] OF, STRING ) > Record (struct, class, RECORD OF) > Access (*, ^, POINTER TO) > Task & Protected (no equivalence in C or Pascal) > Interfaces (no equivalence in C or Pascal) > > I do not see complex type there :) Same as above. Some of these are classes of types some are not. To be sure, complex is not a type you can derive from. But Integer isn't either. It cannot be constrained, but that does not make much sense anyway, and records cannot be constrained as well. It is not a formal generic class of types, neither are records. > Ofcourse, a standard generic package for complex type, I knew that. > > In FORTRAN: > > http://www.fortran.com/F77_std/rjcnf-4.html#sh-4 > > "4.1 Data Types > The six types of data are: > > 1. Integer > 2. Real > 3. Double precision > 4. Complex > 5. Logical > 6. Character > > " > > So, complex is an elementary type, like an integer is. Maybe, but what does it mean semantically? -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 19:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 22:56 ` Robert A Duff 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2010-06-05 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > BTW, as the name suggest "complex" is not "elementary"! (:-)) The name Generic_Complex_Elementary_Functions is amusing (see G.1.2). ;-) > Well, in fact I don't know why ARM defines that, because beyond the name > there is nothing that could distinguish them from other types. Well, elementary types are pass-by-copy, but you're basically right -- there's not much to distinguish them from composite types. - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 19:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-05 20:15 ` John B. Matthews 2010-06-06 4:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: John B. Matthews @ 2010-06-05 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <hudsf0$41p$1@speranza.aioe.org>, "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> wrote: > I am learning to use complex numbers in Ada from wiki Ada book, was > looking at the examples here: > > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Mathematical_calculations#Complex_arithmethic You might also like the examples in this project: <http://home.roadrunner.com/~jbmatthews/misc/groots.html> The test driver (croot.adb) only instantiates one generic, the Generic_Roots procedure itself; others are predefined in the library, as described in ARM G.1.1(25/1): <http://www.adaic.com/standards/05rm/html/RM-G-1-1.html> I avoid use clauses, preferring renames, although tastes vary: package NCT renames Ada.Numerics.Long_Complex_Types; package NCA renames Ada.Numerics.Long_Complex_Arrays; A use type clause makes the operators visible: use type Ada.Numerics.Long_Complex_Types.Complex; -- John B. Matthews trashgod at gmail dot com <http://sites.google.com/site/drjohnbmatthews> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-06-05 20:15 ` John B. Matthews @ 2010-06-06 4:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-06-06 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:02:36 +0200, Nasser M. Abbasi <nma@12000.org> a écrit: > I meant complex type in ada is not an elementary type. as in So this was indeed about to have Complex beside Integer and others. To keep it simple : it is not elementary, because it can be built using more elementary things, so this is not really elementary. If something can be created using something else, it is not so much elementary. May be the matter is efficiency so ? But as there is no low-level support for Complex in any architecture I know (I have never heard about a CPU with a Complex number instructions set), there is no way to formally assert it is less efficient as a composite type. And if ever a CPU support it, an implementation may always be able to get benefit from any dedicated CPU instructions in its implementation of Complex. Note: I heard to say FORTRAN specifications of Real numbers is more relaxed than Ada ones and have less requirements. If there is ever an efficiency gap between FORTRAN and Ada, perhaps this can simply be explained by their different requirement with Real numbers ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. --# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho; --# assert Ada; -- i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion -- and start with new conclusion as premise. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 13:39 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2010-06-05 21:16 ` Maciej Sobczak 2010-06-06 7:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Maciej Sobczak @ 2010-06-05 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw) On 5 Cze, 14:59, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote: > As for different types of the real and imaginary parts, it would make > little or no sense because you can "rotate" numbers by multiplying them to > exp(j*angle). Nobody said that such a "rotation" must make sense in every single application domain. If it does not make sense in a given domain, then it does not have to be supported. I can perfectly imagine a domain where only the addition/substraction operation for complex and multiplying/dividing complex by scalar are necessary. > So the complex space must be isotropic So it does not have to be and Ada, as a language that promotes careful selection of types for the given purpose, would be more consistent by allowing separate base types for both components. Otherwise the model is simplified. Not necessarily bad, but certainly simplified. -- Maciej Sobczak * http://www.inspirel.com YAMI4 - Messaging Solution for Distributed Systems http://www.inspirel.com/yami4 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-06-05 21:16 ` Maciej Sobczak @ 2010-06-06 7:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-06-06 7:39 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 14:16:42 -0700 (PDT), Maciej Sobczak wrote: > On 5 Cze, 14:59, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de> > wrote: > >> As for different types of the real and imaginary parts, it would make >> little or no sense because you can "rotate" numbers by multiplying them to >> exp(j*angle). > > Nobody said that such a "rotation" must make sense in every single > application domain. If it does not make sense in a given domain, then > it does not have to be supported. No, in this case the domain is set, it the complex field. > I can perfectly imagine a domain where only the addition/substraction > operation for complex and multiplying/dividing complex by scalar are > necessary. Yes, that would be a different model of complex numbers. But the same argument applies to any numerical type. There may be cases where floating-point is unsuitable. >> So the complex space must be isotropic > > So it does not have to be and Ada, as a language that promotes careful > selection of types for the given purpose, would be more consistent by > allowing separate base types for both components. Polar representations were far more useful, or complex intervals (rectangular, elliptic), to name some. > Otherwise the model is simplified. Not necessarily bad, but certainly > simplified. You cannot have a model for each case. This is why I keep on arguing for a better type system, where you could define your own models implementing abstract classes like, in this case, complex field. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-20 18:49 ` Gautier write-only @ 2010-05-20 19:24 ` Anonymous 2010-05-20 19:35 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 11:00 ` jonathan 5 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Anonymous @ 2010-05-20 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) > Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does > it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. Ada was never widely used. It could have been, because it's one of the all time great general purpose languages. There's probably no better or more flexible HLL. However, various factors combined to make it a niche language and it doesn't have any hope of breaking out of that niche or getting the use and exposure it deserves. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:24 ` Anonymous @ 2010-05-20 19:35 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:59 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-20 21:37 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cripto@ecn.org> wrote: >> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does >> it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. > > Ada was never widely used. It could have been, because it's one of the all > time great general purpose languages. There's probably no better or more > flexible HLL. However, various factors combined to make it a niche language > and it doesn't have any hope of breaking out of that niche or getting the > use and exposure it deserves. > Well! Doesn't _that_ just suck! Tell me more about these "various factors" - off this NG if you prefer. I need to make an informed decision as to whether or not I should continue learning Ada. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:35 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-20 19:59 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-21 20:10 ` Warren 2010-05-20 21:37 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-20 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin writes: > On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cripto@ecn.org> wrote: >>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what >>> area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, >>> graphics, etc? TIA.. >> >> Ada was never widely used. It could have been, because it's one of >> the all time great general purpose languages. There's probably no >> better or more flexible HLL. However, various factors combined to >> make it a niche language and it doesn't have any hope of breaking out >> of that niche or getting the use and exposure it deserves. > > Well! Doesn't _that_ just suck! Tell me more about these "various > factors" - off this NG if you prefer. I need to make an informed > decision as to whether or not I should continue learning Ada. My experience shows that: - people who learn Ada become more adept at other languages. This is because Ada teaches them to think properly. This in turn is because, in Ada, concepts are much more orthogonal than in other languages (e.g. encapsulation is orthogonal to types). - people who spend the effort to learn Ada show they are real software engineers. A real software enginer bases their decisions on technical merits, not popularity. - Sloppy programmers avoid Ada, therefore Ada helps avoid sloppy programmers. -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:59 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-21 20:10 ` Warren 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Warren @ 2010-05-21 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta expounded in news:87d3wqbayp.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org: > Duke Normandin writes: >> On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cripto@ecn.org> wrote: >>>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what >>>> area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, >>>> graphics, etc? TIA.. It's ok to be curious but this begs the question of why it is important for it to be "popular"? Do you have to sell it's use at your company? Are you considering the availability of tools and/or source code? Or, are you interested in it for your own (or open sourced) projects? Depending on the answers to some of these factors, popularity may not be important. IOW, if you need an excellent tool, then embrace Ada. Let the compiler work for you, instead of some other allowing more "shooting in the foot". Or real time "scripts" finding your problems one at a time when the user goes to use it. That reminds me of a low-calibre programmer and VB -- oh the horror of that... >>> Ada was never widely used. It could have been, because it's one of >>> the all time great general purpose languages. There's probably no >>> better or more flexible HLL. However, various factors combined to >>> make it a niche language and it doesn't have any hope of breaking >>> out of that niche or getting the use and exposure it deserves. While probably true, there is always hope. The future is murkey at best. With more and more software moving into automobiles etc., safety's profile might push this agenda a little bit. > - people who spend the effort to learn Ada show they are real software > engineers. A real software enginer bases their decisions on > technical merits, not popularity. My point above, in a nutshell. > - Sloppy programmers avoid Ada, therefore Ada helps avoid sloppy > programmers. They're more lazy than I am. ;-) Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 20:10 ` Warren @ 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (5 more replies) 0 siblings, 6 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, Warren <ve3wwg@gmail.com> wrote: > Ludovic Brenta expounded in news:87d3wqbayp.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org: > >> Duke Normandin writes: >>> On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cripto@ecn.org> wrote: >>>>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what >>>>> area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, >>>>> graphics, etc? TIA.. > > It's ok to be curious but this begs the question of why > it is important for it to be "popular"? > > Do you have to sell it's use at your company? > > Are you considering the availability of tools and/or > source code? > > Or, are you interested in it for your own (or open sourced) > projects? > > Depending on the answers to some of these factors, > popularity may not be important. Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:55 ` Jeffrey R. Carter ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-22 12:23 ` Peter C. Chapin ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 23:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:05:33 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time > learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in > a > museum. It had a long live, and will have a long live again. The goo word could be “persistent”. It started at the end of the years 1970, first standardized in 1983, revised in someway, the again revised in 1995 with many additions which make it the first standardized OO language (while Ada does not handle OO the same way as others), then again revised in 2005, and the next revision is planned for 2012 or 2015 (I feel lost with this date... should be 2015, while many people are talking about 2012). It was modern, in its early age, starting with Ada 83. It is unlikely that something which was ahead in 1983 and which in 1983, already embedded paradigms still totally unknown of most of 2010 languages, it is unlikely such a thing can be referred to as a “fossil”. Don't be afraid for that. Not popular, does not implies bad (and popular does not implies good). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 23:55 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-22 0:00 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 16:55 ` Warren 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-21 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) wrote: > > It started at the end of the years 1970, first standardized in 1983, Ada was 1st standardized in 1980, MIL-STD-1815 (1980 Dec 10). -- Jeff Carter "C's solution to this [variable-sized array parameters] has real problems, and people who are complaining about safety definitely have a point." Dennis Ritchie 25 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:55 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-22 0:00 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 16:55 ` Warren 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:05:33 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a > �crit: >> Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time >> learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in >> a >> museum. > It had a long live, and will have a long live again. > The goo word could be ?persistent?. > > It started at the end of the years 1970, first standardized in 1983, > revised in someway, the again revised in 1995 with many additions which > make it the first standardized OO language (while Ada does not handle OO > the same way as others), then again revised in 2005, and the next revision > is planned for 2012 or 2015 (I feel lost with this date... should be 2015, > while many people are talking about 2012). > > It was modern, in its early age, starting with Ada 83. It is unlikely that > something which was ahead in 1983 and which in 1983, already embedded > paradigms still totally unknown of most of 2010 languages, it is unlikely > such a thing can be referred to as a ?fossil?. > > Don't be afraid for that. Not popular, does not implies bad (and popular > does not implies good). I didn't mean to say that Ada _was_ a fossil! When I originally asked the question, I simply wanted to be sure that I was not in fact about to embark on an archaeological expedition. ;) -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:55 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-22 0:00 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-25 16:55 ` Warren 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Warren @ 2010-05-25 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 499 bytes --] =?utf-8?Q?Yannick_Duch=C3=AAne_=28Hibou57?= =?utf-8?Q?=29?= expounded in news:op.vc2xkdarule2fv@garhos: > Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:05:33 +0200, Duke Normandin > <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: >> Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the >> ti > me >> learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but > in >> a >> museum. .. > .. Not popular, does not implies bad (and > popular does not implies good). That is especially true of music! Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-22 12:23 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-22 13:17 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 0:34 ` Anonymous ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Peter C. Chapin @ 2010-05-22 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin wrote: > Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time > learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a > museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but > guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and > support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. Ada is definitely not a fossil, nor is it likely to become a fossil in the near future. It's true that Ada doesn't have the tool, library, and community support that C++ and Java enjoys (in terms of sheer quantity at least), but there are definitely all three of those things available for Ada. Also the language has an updated standard in the works. If you are looking at functional languages have you considered OCaml? It has a lively community. An alternative might be F#, Microsoft's ML-like functional language for .NET. It's shiny and new, and Microsoft fully supports it with Visual Studio 2010. It even runs on Linux/Mono. Other than that I don't know much about it. :) Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-22 12:23 ` Peter C. Chapin @ 2010-05-22 13:17 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-22 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-22, Peter C. Chapin <pcc482719@gmail.com> wrote: > Duke Normandin wrote: > >> Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time >> learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a >> museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but >> guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and >> support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. > > Ada is definitely not a fossil, nor is it likely to become a fossil in the > near future. It's true that Ada doesn't have the tool, library, and community > support that C++ and Java enjoys (in terms of sheer quantity at least), but > there are definitely all three of those things available for Ada. Also the > language has an updated standard in the works. I'm seeing that Ada is alive and well, and still "strutting her stuff" ;) Just had to be sure, is all.... > If you are looking at functional languages have you considered OCaml? It has a > lively community. An alternative might be F#, Microsoft's ML-like functional > language for .NET. It's shiny and new, and Microsoft fully supports it with > Visual Studio 2010. It even runs on Linux/Mono. Other than that I don't know > much about it. :) I quit smoking Camel cigarettes 10 years ago. Whenever I go near the OCaml language, I get antsy for a cigarette. ;) Haskell is too much like "a hassle". OTOH, Miranda conjures up fond memories of long ago ... ;) -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-22 12:23 ` Peter C. Chapin @ 2010-05-23 0:34 ` Anonymous 2010-05-23 2:23 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 2:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Anonymous @ 2010-05-23 0:34 UTC (permalink / raw) > Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time > learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a > museum. No risk there, Ada was a fossil in 1983. But it's one of those fossils we love and it's just too good to die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 0:34 ` Anonymous @ 2010-05-23 2:23 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 2:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, Anonymous <cripto@ecn.org> wrote: >> Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time >> learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a >> museum. > > No risk there, Ada was a fossil in 1983. But it's one of those fossils we > love and it's just too good to die. > ;) I'm twice Ada's age, and feeling a little fossil-ly myself. Hope I can hang in there like Ada has. ;) -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-23 0:34 ` Anonymous @ 2010-05-23 2:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-23 13:22 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan 2010-05-25 2:11 ` Stephen Leake 5 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-23 2:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:05:33 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time > learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in > a > museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but > guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and > support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. I suppose you know about Haskel, don't you ? Seems to have a wider community if I'm not wrong. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-23 2:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-23 13:22 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-23 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-23, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:05:33 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a > �crit: >> Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time >> learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in >> a >> museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but >> guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and >> support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. > I suppose you know about Haskel, don't you ? Seems to have a wider > community if I'm not wrong. > I've looked at it - too slow! The community seems more "chatty" than what is the case with some other languages. However, IMO, an active NG does not, IMO, indicate the usage a language receives in problem solving. The Ada community, e.g. cannot be characterized as chatty, but that very same community is probably very big, very experienced, and very busy - too busy to be lurking in a NG. ;) I'm the only noob here from what I can see. My hunch is that Haskell is nowhere close to being a problem-solver that Ada appears to be. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-23 2:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan 2010-05-24 13:22 ` Duke Normandin ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-25 2:11 ` Stephen Leake 5 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Bryan @ 2010-05-24 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 21, 7:05 pm, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: > On 2010-05-21, Warren <ve3...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Ludovic Brenta expounded innews:87d3wqbayp.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org: > > >> Duke Normandin writes: > >>> On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cri...@ecn.org> wrote: > >>>>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what > >>>>> area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, > >>>>> graphics, etc? TIA.. > > > It's ok to be curious but this begs the question of why > > it is important for it to be "popular"? > > > Do you have to sell it's use at your company? > > > Are you considering the availability of tools and/or > > source code? > > > Or, are you interested in it for your own (or open sourced) > > projects? > > > Depending on the answers to some of these factors, > > popularity may not be important. > > Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time > learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a > museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but > guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and > support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. > -- By all means I say learn Ada at least as a learning exercise. It's a great language that you can grow with over time. GNAT is a great tool set as well, it provides you everything you need in the beginning. And let us not forget that some very interesting projects are built with Ada commercially! My only word of caution is to make sure you have a "popular" industry language on your tool belt as well. Try as I have, I've never been able to find work with Ada. When I was in Asia-Pacific, Ada was unheard of. In North America I find Ada is more well known, but without ten years of Ada industry experience, most employers are simply not interested in talking to candidates. Despite all of its faults, C++ has kept me employed and working on interesting projects. :) Multiple interpretations on C++ can be derived from that last statement. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan @ 2010-05-24 13:22 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 19:56 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-25 17:00 ` Warren 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-24, Bryan <brobinson.eng@gmail.com> wrote: > On May 21, 7:05�pm, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: >> On 2010-05-21, Warren <ve3...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Ludovic Brenta expounded innews:87d3wqbayp.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org: >> >> >> Duke Normandin writes: >> >>> On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cri...@ecn.org> wrote: >> >>>>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what >> >>>>> area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, >> >>>>> graphics, etc? TIA.. >> >> > It's ok to be curious but this begs the question of why >> > it is important for it to be "popular"? >> >> > Do you have to sell it's use at your company? >> >> > Are you considering the availability of tools and/or >> > source code? >> >> > Or, are you interested in it for your own (or open sourced) >> > projects? >> >> > Depending on the answers to some of these factors, >> > popularity may not be important. >> >> Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time >> learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a >> museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but >> guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and >> support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. >> -- > > By all means I say learn Ada at least as a learning exercise. It's a > great language that you can grow with over time. GNAT is a great tool > set as well, it provides you everything you need in the beginning. > And let us not forget that some very interesting projects are built > with Ada commercially! > > My only word of caution is to make sure you have a "popular" industry > language on your tool belt as well. Try as I have, I've never been > able to find work with Ada. When I was in Asia-Pacific, Ada was > unheard of. In North America I find Ada is more well known, but > without ten years of Ada industry experience, most employers are > simply not interested in talking to candidates. Despite all of its > faults, C++ has kept me employed and working on interesting > projects. :) Multiple interpretations on C++ can be derived from > that last statement. I appreciate your candor and insight - thanks! -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan 2010-05-24 13:22 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 19:56 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-25 17:00 ` Warren 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-24 19:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Bryan wrote: > > C++ has kept me employed and working on interesting projects. :) New Chinese proverb? "May you work on interesting projects." -- Jeff Carter "You can never forget too much about C++." 115 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan 2010-05-24 13:22 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 19:56 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-25 17:00 ` Warren 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Warren @ 2010-05-25 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Bryan expounded in news:1cdca5d5-4136-4383-a47f-9397cec34698@v18g2000vbc.googlegroups.com: > By all means I say learn Ada at least as a learning exercise. It's a > great language that you can grow with over time. GNAT is a great tool > set as well, it provides you everything you need in the beginning. And pretty soon you'll be comparing all other languages and their features to Ada. ;-) Warren ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan @ 2010-05-25 2:11 ` Stephen Leake 5 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-25 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > On 2010-05-21, Warren <ve3wwg@gmail.com> wrote: >> Ludovic Brenta expounded in news:87d3wqbayp.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org: >> >>> Duke Normandin writes: >>>> On 2010-05-20, Anonymous <cripto@ecn.org> wrote: >>>>>> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what >>>>>> area(s) does it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, >>>>>> graphics, etc? TIA.. >> >> It's ok to be curious but this begs the question of why >> it is important for it to be "popular"? >> >> Do you have to sell it's use at your company? >> >> Are you considering the availability of tools and/or >> source code? >> >> Or, are you interested in it for your own (or open sourced) >> projects? >> >> Depending on the answers to some of these factors, >> popularity may not be important. > > Nothing too terribly mind-boggling! ;) Just don't want to spend the time > learning a "soon-to-be" fossil of a language, with no where to go but in a > museum. Been there; done that! I'm also looking at learning Miranda - but > guess what? Nice, simple functional language - but zero community and > support. It _may_ get a second life - maybe. Meanwhile, I'm liking Ada. You have told us why you are scared of learning Ada (it might be a waste of time), but not why you want to learn Ada. Are you just curious? -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 19:35 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:59 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-20 21:37 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-20 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 20 May 2010 21:35:16 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > Well! Doesn't _that_ just suck! Tell me more about these "various > factors" - > off this NG if you prefer. I need to make an informed decision as to > whether > or not I should continue learning Ada. Suggestion : I suppose you came to Ada later after others (this was probably not the “must-have cool stuff” many people recommended to you first). You may use to think “Why is this and that so much clumsy stupid and so much non-logic with this XYZ language or paradigm ?”. Then, may be you though to switch to something else after some any times, because of many and any reasons. So, what about just have a try and see if, let say, next year, you will have some reason to leave this language and paradigm ? What about just try and see if the experience gonna be same or different ? -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2010-05-20 19:24 ` Anonymous @ 2010-05-21 11:00 ` jonathan 2010-05-21 14:21 ` Duke Normandin 5 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: jonathan @ 2010-05-21 11:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On May 20, 1:53 pm, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: > I'm new to Ada, but not to programming in general. Decided to learn a new > language, and Ada was of interest to me. Am enjoying the language so far - > using GNAT GPL nad Coronado's old tutorial. > > Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does > it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. > -- > Duke > *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** Here's some of the best introductory material I've come across recently: http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada Slides from 4 talks. They're all good, but I would start with Robert Dewar's "What's New in the World of Ada". Page 5 should warm the heart of any Ada programmer. I also liked Erhard Ploedereder's "Ada in Research and Education, an Experience Report" - much to learn from the comparison with Java. And 2 classics: http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2000/08/mccormick.html http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2008/05/0805Sutton.html Jonathan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 11:00 ` jonathan @ 2010-05-21 14:21 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 17:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, jonathan <johnscpg@googlemail.com> wrote: > On May 20, 1:53�pm, Duke Normandin <dukeofp...@ml1.net> wrote: >> I'm new to Ada, but not to programming in general. Decided to learn a new >> language, and Ada was of interest to me. Am enjoying the language so far - >> using GNAT GPL nad Coronado's old tutorial. >> >> Just curious to know if Ada is still widely used, and in what area(s) does >> it excel, e.g. data processing, number crunching, graphics, etc? TIA.. >> -- >> Duke >> *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** > > > Here's some of the best introductory material I've come > across recently: > > http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada > > Slides from 4 talks. They're all good, but I would start > with Robert Dewar's "What's New in the World of Ada". > Page 5 should warm the heart of any Ada programmer. I > also liked Erhard Ploedereder's "Ada in Research and > Education, an Experience Report" - much to learn from > the comparison with Java. > > And 2 classics: > > http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2000/08/mccormick.html > http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/2008/05/0805Sutton.html > > Jonathan Thanks for the URLs! I visited http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start with Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? -- Duke Normandin *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 14:21 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 17:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 19:52 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-24 18:01 ` Luis Espinal 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 21 May 2010 16:21:55 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > Thanks for the URLs! I visited > http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada > > To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start > with > Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? It's up to you to choose, while if I may, would suggest you start with classic Ada first, seems obvious. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 17:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 19:52 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Fri, 21 May 2010 16:21:55 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a > �crit: >> Thanks for the URLs! I visited >> http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada >> >> To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start >> with >> Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? > It's up to you to choose, while if I may, would suggest you start with > classic Ada first, seems obvious. > You bet! That's the route was planning on taking. Have a good weekend! -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 14:21 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 17:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-21 20:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-24 18:01 ` Luis Espinal 2 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Peter C. Chapin @ 2010-05-21 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin wrote: > To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start with > Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? It depends on what you are trying to do, but Ada is a more general language. Unless you have a specific need to use SPARK I would suggest starting with full Ada. SPARK is a specialized language designed for high integrity and safety critical programming. It's a very restricted dialect of Ada with additional annotations (in the form of Ada comments) and a corresponding tool set to process those annotations. Because the executable part of SPARK is so restricted, it is not a very convenient language to use for many applications. While it's great at what it does, it should be applied only where it is really needed. One of SPARK's strengths is that you don't have to write the entire program using it. You can use SPARK for critical "core" algorithms and use full Ada for the less critical components. Of course deciding what is and is not "critical" can be a tricky issue. Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin @ 2010-05-21 20:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-21 23:07 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-21 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter C. Chapin wrote: > > It depends on what you are trying to do, but Ada is a more general language. > Unless you have a specific need to use SPARK I would suggest starting with > full Ada. There's also the fact that everything for learning SPARK that I've seen assumes familiarity with Ada. On the other hand, if one learns the discipline needed to use SPARK well 1st, it will certainly benefit one's use of other languages, including Ada. -- Jeff Carter "C's solution to this [variable-sized array parameters] has real problems, and people who are complaining about safety definitely have a point." Dennis Ritchie 25 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-21 20:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-21 23:07 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, Peter C. Chapin <pcc482719@gmail.com> wrote: > Duke Normandin wrote: > >> To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start with >> Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? > > It depends on what you are trying to do, but Ada is a more general language. > Unless you have a specific need to use SPARK I would suggest starting with > full Ada. > > SPARK is a specialized language designed for high integrity and safety > critical programming. It's a very restricted dialect of Ada with additional > annotations (in the form of Ada comments) and a corresponding tool set to > process those annotations. Because the executable part of SPARK is so > restricted, it is not a very convenient language to use for many > applications. While it's great at what it does, it should be applied only > where it is really needed. > > One of SPARK's strengths is that you don't have to write the entire program > using it. You can use SPARK for critical "core" algorithms and use full Ada > for the less critical components. Of course deciding what is and is > not "critical" can be a tricky issue. > > Peter > Thanks for putting SPARK in the proper perspective for me. I guessed that it might be a specialized incarnation of Ada, but wasn't quite sure. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:07 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 23:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:53 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 23:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:07:46 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > Thanks for putting SPARK in the proper perspective for me. I guessed > that it > might be a specialized incarnation of Ada, but wasn't quite sure. This is far more strict and has far more requirements on the design, it takes really more long to create an application with SPARK and full validity conditions proofs. That was the reason to suggest you to start with Ada, instead of SPARK. Don't bother any way, as on the way to learn Ada, you will also learn part of SPARK, as the latter relies on the former. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 23:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 23:53 ` Duke Normandin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 23:53 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-21, Yannick Duch�ne <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Sat, 22 May 2010 01:07:46 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a > �crit: >> Thanks for putting SPARK in the proper perspective for me. I guessed >> that it >> might be a specialized incarnation of Ada, but wasn't quite sure. > This is far more strict and has far more requirements on the design, it > takes really more long to create an application with SPARK and full > validity conditions proofs. That was the reason to suggest you to start > with Ada, instead of SPARK. Don't bother any way, as on the way to learn > Ada, you will also learn part of SPARK, as the latter relies on the former. > Good point! -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-21 20:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-21 23:07 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-21 23:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-21 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Fri, 21 May 2010 22:11:34 +0200, Peter C. Chapin <pcc482719@gmail.com> a écrit: > SPARK is a specialized language designed for high integrity and safety > critical programming. With due respect, I was just to say I don't agree with the critical condition which appears in all wordings talking about SPARK. This (SPARK) is just nice when you want to proof something works, when you want to proofs there will not be any runtime error or specification violation. Obviously, this is welcome in critical areas... while not only. There is no need to deal with a critical area to seek for that : this may simply be because you want better as much as it is possible or because you want something to be well-done as much as it is possible. The exact same reasons you have to choose a typed language instead of a non-typed one. Many people do things, in some manner, with non-typed language. Just the way its done differs, and not every body have the same requirements. Some have requirements which makes them say they don't need typed language. Some don't agree with that. This depends on what the author wish. By the way, the definition of hat a critical area is, does not seems clear. Some ones may say “this is critical” while some other will not. I like to say SPARK is a step above types and declarations. This seems to better cover its purpose, in my humble opinion. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-21 14:21 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 17:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin @ 2010-05-24 18:01 ` Luis Espinal 2010-05-24 19:34 ` Duke Normandin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Luis Espinal @ 2010-05-24 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <7GwJn.4712$z%6.3258@edtnps83>, Duke Normandin says... > >Thanks for the URLs! I visited >http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada > >To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start with >Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? I think you should learn either (SPARK or Ada), or maybe both (probably this is what you should do). In that case, I'd go with Ada first. I took an Ada class on my 3rd year at university, and from then one, it was my tool of choice (along with C++). I graduated, looked for Ada jobs, and could not find much. I went to grad school all the while still looking for Ada jobs. Eventually I settle to work with C++, and then with Java. I've been programming in Java for 11 years - 15 if I count the playing-around I did with it since it came up in 95. And now, finally I might be able to get a chance to work in C/C++. Still, every once in a while I search for Ada jobs. I keep seeing an opening for a Sr. Ada programmer to assist in a conversion to C++. Plus I keep seeing that people require X amount of years on Ada or C++ when hiring, so it is a chicken-n-egg kind of thing. Putting all that lamentation aside, and the fact that I've never worked with it, I'd say that it is the most influential language I've had (with the Pascal family of languages.) Ever since I learned it, all other languages have felt a bit lacking when it comes to develop software that is both 1) efficient and 2) looks and reads correct. I think I'm a good software developer and engineer, and I honestly don't think my skills would be as good as I think they are if it weren't because of Ada. Learning Ada is how I learned how to program correctly. This is strictly anecdotal and personal, so take it with a grain of salt. But my suggestion will be to learn Ada for the sake of it in the hope it will improve your skills and craft, however good they are now. If you happen to land a job in Ada, that will be an added bonus. Learning the language and solving non-trivial problems with them, that's all the justification one should need IMO. Good luck. - Luis Espinal. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 18:01 ` Luis Espinal @ 2010-05-24 19:34 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2010-05-24, Luis Espinal <Luis_member@newsguy.com> wrote: > In article <7GwJn.4712$z%6.3258@edtnps83>, Duke Normandin says... >> >>Thanks for the URLs! I visited >>http://distrinet.cs.kuleuven.be/events/AdaEvent/abstracts.html#researchada >> >>To begin with. Looks like I should be learning SPARK? or should I start with >>Ada, _then_ graduate to SPARK? > > > I think you should learn either (SPARK or Ada), or maybe both (probably this is > what you should do). In that case, I'd go with Ada first. > > I took an Ada class on my 3rd year at university, and from then one, it was my > tool of choice (along with C++). I graduated, looked for Ada jobs, and could not > find much. I went to grad school all the while still looking for Ada jobs. > Eventually I settle to work with C++, and then with Java. > > I've been programming in Java for 11 years - 15 if I count the playing-around I > did with it since it came up in 95. And now, finally I might be able to get a > chance to work in C/C++. > > Still, every once in a while I search for Ada jobs. I keep seeing an opening for > a Sr. Ada programmer to assist in a conversion to C++. Plus I keep seeing that > people require X amount of years on Ada or C++ when hiring, so it is a > chicken-n-egg kind of thing. > > Putting all that lamentation aside, and the fact that I've never worked with it, > I'd say that it is the most influential language I've had (with the Pascal > family of languages.) > > Ever since I learned it, all other languages have felt a bit lacking when it > comes to develop software that is both 1) efficient and 2) looks and reads > correct. I think I'm a good software developer and engineer, and I honestly > don't think my skills would be as good as I think they are if it weren't because > of Ada. > > Learning Ada is how I learned how to program correctly. This is strictly > anecdotal and personal, so take it with a grain of salt. But my suggestion will > be to learn Ada for the sake of it in the hope it will improve your skills and > craft, however good they are now. > > If you happen to land a job in Ada, that will be an added bonus. Learning the > language and solving non-trivial problems with them, that's all the > justification one should need IMO. > > Good luck. > > - Luis Espinal. > Thank you Luis, for your insights. I can't help but feel sad and irritated that a language as useful as Ada has been characterized to be, by you and others, should not be more widely appreciated and used. I'm glad that I don't _have to_ program for a living. I do it because I enjoy it - got the bug in 1980. ;) BTW, do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd guess C and asm. -- Duke *** Tolerance becomes a crime, when applied to evil [Thomas Mann] *** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 19:34 ` Duke Normandin @ 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-24 20:25 ` John B. Matthews 2010-05-24 22:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-25 11:41 ` Anonymous 2010-05-26 7:21 ` Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Mon, 24 May 2010 21:34:24 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a écrit: > bug in 1980. ;) BTW, do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd > guess > C and asm. Ada could not be written in C or asm, it is written in plain English. It was not translated because there are some much pages in the reference that every one ws afraid (just think about translating it into french...) I stop to play the fool now :p Ada compilers, could be written in C or asm ;) But Ada compilers are mostly written in ... Ada, of course. Just look at GNAT sources (big) to have an idea. There may be some tiny C stuff in GNAT Ada implementation or a bit of assembly in Janus Ada implementation, however, all are mostly written in Ada. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 20:25 ` John B. Matthews 2010-05-24 22:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: John B. Matthews @ 2010-05-24 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <op.vc77ejooxmjfy8@garhos>, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Mon, 24 May 2010 21:34:24 +0200, Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> a > écrit: > > BTW, do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd guess C and > > asm. > [...] > Ada compilers, could be written in C or asm ;) But Ada compilers are > mostly written in ... Ada, of course. Just look at GNAT sources (big) to > have an idea. Good reading! :-) <http://gcc.gnu.org/viewcvs/trunk/gcc/ada/> [...] -- John B. Matthews trashgod at gmail dot com <http://sites.google.com/site/drjohnbmatthews> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-24 20:25 ` John B. Matthews @ 2010-05-24 22:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-24 22:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-24 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Yannick Duchï¿œne (Hibou57) wrote: > > Ada compilers, could be written in C or asm ;) But Ada compilers are > mostly written in ... Ada, of course. Just look at GNAT sources (big) to > have an idea. There may be some tiny C stuff in GNAT Ada implementation > or a bit of assembly in Janus Ada implementation, however, all are > mostly written in Ada. The Verdix compiler was started in C and later changed to Ada. This is where the comparison in http://www.adaic.org/whyada/ada-vs-c/cada_art.html comes from, one of the few hard data points in language comparisons. -- Jeff Carter "You can never forget too much about C++." 115 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 22:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2010-05-24 22:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-24 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 00:21:56 +0200, Jeffrey R. Carter <spam.jrcarter.not@spam.acm.org> a écrit: > The Verdix compiler was started in C and later changed to Ada. This is > where the comparison in > http://www.adaic.org/whyada/ada-vs-c/cada_art.html comes from, one of > the few hard data points in language comparisons. Never head about Verdix before. Thanks for that -> it goes in my bookmarks. Will read carefully soon. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 19:34 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 11:41 ` Anonymous 2010-05-25 12:08 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-27 13:20 ` Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-26 7:21 ` Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Anonymous @ 2010-05-25 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw) > BTW, do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd guess C and asm. If you do some research you can find an incredible web site discussing the Ada competition in some depth. And here on this very list we have some of the people who participated in that competition who can surely answer your question. I can tell you this for certain: the IBM implementation was not written in C, at least not on an IBM machine. IBM didn't have a viable C compiler until much later. Furthermore, assembler is the language of choice on IBM platforms. It may have been written elsewhere and cross-compiled though. I'll be interested to see answers to your question, thanks for asking it! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 11:41 ` Anonymous @ 2010-05-25 12:08 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-25 13:47 ` George Orwell 2010-05-27 13:20 ` Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-25 12:08 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25.05.10 13:41, Anonymous wrote: >> BTW, do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd guess C and asm. > > If you do some research you can find an incredible web site discussing the > Ada competition in some depth. And here on this very list we have some of > the people who participated in that competition who can surely answer your > question. > > I can tell you this for certain: the IBM implementation was not written in > C, at least not on an IBM machine. IBM didn't have a viable C compiler > until much later. Furthermore, assembler is the language of choice on IBM > platforms. It may have been written elsewhere and cross-compiled though. > I'll be interested to see answers to your question, thanks for asking it! GNAT is written in Ada, after being drafted in SETL; a precursor of GNAT was Ada/Ed, an Ada interpreter. This is what I remember from reading GNAT history. Another Ada compiler, a variant of AdaMagic, will output a C program. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 12:08 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-25 13:47 ` George Orwell 2010-05-25 14:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: George Orwell @ 2010-05-25 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw) > GNAT is written in Ada, after being drafted in SETL; > a precursor of GNAT was Ada/Ed, an Ada interpreter. > This is what I remember from reading GNAT history. Yes, everybody knows GNAT was written in GNAT. But GNAT is not Ada, it's just one implementation, and it is not by any means the first. Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system Per maggiori informazioni |For more info https://www.mixmaster.it ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 13:47 ` George Orwell @ 2010-05-25 14:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-25 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25.05.10 15:47, George Orwell wrote: >> GNAT is written in Ada, after being drafted in SETL; >> a precursor of GNAT was Ada/Ed, an Ada interpreter. >> This is what I remember from reading GNAT history. > > Yes, everybody knows GNAT was written in GNAT. But GNAT is not Ada, it's > just one implementation, and it is not by any means the first. Yes. Ada/Ed, though, being an Ada 83 interpreter, being written in SETL, not C, and being prototypical for GNAT, indicates that C is not necessarily the single language for writing high class compilers---as some have implied. I'm sure you know that is the case for some other languages, too. GNAT is one compiler where everyone can convince themselves, since the sources are open to the public. Some more hints, all signifying nothing, absent more reputable positive findings: - DEC Ada living in an architecture that is decidedly not Unix, and less C centric - Rational, offering Ada/Apex long before they added C++ - Alsys Ada being compared to Occam on the T800 Transputer - Mentionings of counts of pragma Assert (and other Ada terms) in compiler source, not just in GNAT, but also in Janus/Ada, and, IIRC IBM Ada (formerly Rational). Would they all have been using C (K&R C, that is) on non-C platforms nevertheless, for implementing their compilers? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 14:24 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-25 16:24 ` Nomen Nescio 2010-05-25 18:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-25 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Georg Bauhaus a écrit : > Yes. Ada/Ed, though, being an Ada 83 interpreter, being > written in SETL, not C, and being prototypical for GNAT, > indicates that C is not necessarily the single language for > writing high class compilers---as some have implied. > I'm sure you know that is the case for some other languages, > too. In most programming languages, there is a relation between the structure of the language itself and the kind of data it handles best. For this reason, and others like ease of porting, it is generally a good idea to write the compiler in its own language, safe for special cases like initial bootstrapping. -- --------------------------------------------------------- J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr) Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:42 ` Ludovic Brenta ` (2 more replies) 2010-05-25 18:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 7:24 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 3 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-25 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 25 May 2010 18:15:40 +0200, J-P. Rosen wrote: > Georg Bauhaus a �crit : >> Yes. Ada/Ed, though, being an Ada 83 interpreter, being >> written in SETL, not C, and being prototypical for GNAT, >> indicates that C is not necessarily the single language for >> writing high class compilers---as some have implied. >> I'm sure you know that is the case for some other languages, >> too. > In most programming languages, there is a relation between the structure > of the language itself and the kind of data it handles best. For this > reason, and others like ease of porting, it is generally a good idea to > write the compiler in its own language, safe for special cases like > initial bootstrapping. I don't think this is true. 1. Theoretically there is no obvious connection between the language and the things it describes. The word "red" is not red. English grammar is not influenced by Maxwell's equations, etc. [*] 2. Practically, is there any SQL parser written in SQL? The languages in which a compiler can be written are in minority. Well, AFAIK the Convey's life is Turing complete, but there never will be any compiler in it. P.S. I bet Ada is better for writing a C compiler than C. * I said "no obvious", because, clearly, any language is influenced by the way our perception functions. There is a connection, but it is not straightforward. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-25 17:42 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-25 18:16 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:16 ` J-P. Rosen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-25 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov writes on comp.lang.ada: > P.S. I bet Ada is better for writing a C compiler than C. I don't think so; human factors would get in the way. A programmer proficient in Ada might start doing this but would eventually give up and write a Pascal compiler instead :) -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 17:42 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-25 18:16 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 21:27 ` Ludovic Brenta 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 19:42:48 +0200, Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> a écrit: > Dmitry A. Kazakov writes on comp.lang.ada: >> P.S. I bet Ada is better for writing a C compiler than C. > > I don't think so; human factors would get in the way. A programmer > proficient in Ada might start doing this but would eventually give up > and write a Pascal compiler instead :) For the news and as an anecdote : C is rising up again (due to embedded systems quickly rising every where), while C++ is slightly decreasing (for the same reason C is rising again, C++ is decreasing), and the Pascal usenet group is closed. So... not sure. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 18:16 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 21:27 ` Ludovic Brenta 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-25 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Yannick Duchêne writes on comp.lang.ada: > and the Pascal usenet group is closed. So... not sure. That's because it has been superseded by: comp.lang.pascal.ansi-iso comp.lang.pascal.borland comp.lang.pascal.delphi.advocacy comp.lang.pascal.delphi.announce comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misc comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usage comp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writing comp.lang.pascal.delphi.databases comp.lang.pascal.delphi.misc comp.lang.pascal.mac comp.lang.pascal.misc and more. -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:42 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-25 18:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 7:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 18:16 ` J-P. Rosen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 19:34:43 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a écrit: > 2. Practically, is there any SQL parser written in SQL? Because SQL is a DSL. > P.S. I bet Ada is better for writing a C compiler than C. May be or may be not. This can be done well in C too (the author is as much important as the implementation language) and then, C advocators will obviously try to create it using C. So C is most likely to be the choice. Ada would be better for some reason, but the final product and the source is not the same thing. If the product is good, this does not matter for users if the source is hard to maintain and understand. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 18:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 7:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-26 21:22 ` Simon Wright 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-26 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 25 May 2010 20:13:21 +0200, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) wrote: > Le Tue, 25 May 2010 19:34:43 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov > <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> a �crit: >> 2. Practically, is there any SQL parser written in SQL? > Because SQL is a DSL. Which are in majority. Universal-purpose languages are in minority. Likely further limited to predominantly imperative languages. >> P.S. I bet Ada is better for writing a C compiler than C. > May be or may be not. This can be done well in C too (the author is as > much important as the implementation language) and then, C advocators will > obviously try to create it using C. So C is most likely to be the choice. It is about personal preferences, not as J-P said, about some language structures. Language structures are largely shared by all universal-purpose languages. > If the product is good, this does not matter for > users if the source is hard to maintain and understand. 1. Users do not maintain compilers 2. C code is unmaintainable 3. I never saw a good C compiler, probably because none was written in Ada (:-). The best was DEC C, I guess it wasn't in C (Maybe I am wrong) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 7:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-26 21:22 ` Simon Wright 2010-05-26 21:35 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Simon Wright @ 2010-05-26 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw) "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > 3. I never saw a good C compiler, probably because none was written in > Ada (:-). The best was DEC C, I guess it wasn't in C (Maybe I am > wrong) Possibly BLISS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 21:22 ` Simon Wright @ 2010-05-26 21:35 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Wed, 26 May 2010 23:22:54 +0200, Simon Wright <simon@pushface.org> a écrit: > "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes: > >> 3. I never saw a good C compiler, probably because none was written in >> Ada (:-). The best was DEC C, I guess it wasn't in C (Maybe I am >> wrong) > > Possibly BLISS. Seems to be a possible match at least http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLISS http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/87-07-029 -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:42 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-25 18:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:16 ` J-P. Rosen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-25 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov a �crit : >> In most programming languages, there is a relation between the structure >> of the language itself and the kind of data it handles best. For this >> reason, and others like ease of porting, it is generally a good idea to >> write the compiler in its own language, safe for special cases like >> initial bootstrapping. > > I don't think this is true. I said "in most programming languages..." > > 1. Theoretically there is no obvious connection between the language and > the things it describes. The word "red" is not red. English grammar is not > influenced by Maxwell's equations, etc. [*] I was talking about computer languages. > 2. Practically, is there any SQL parser written in SQL? OK, that's an exception. > The languages in which a compiler can be written are in minority. Maybe more than you think. C compilers are in C, I wouldn't be surprised if C++ compilers were in C++ and PL/1 compilers in PL/1. Most Ada compilers are in Ada; I once knew a Lisp compiler in Lisp, and of course there is someone who swears that Cobol is a great language for writing Cobol compilers ;-). Hint: he wrote one of the best Cobol compilers for the PC - in Cobol. -- --------------------------------------------------------- J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr) Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-25 18:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 7:24 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 18:15:40 +0200, J-P. Rosen <rosen@adalog.fr> a écrit: > In most programming languages, there is a relation between the structure > of the language itself and the kind of data it handles best. For this > reason, and others like ease of porting, it is generally a good idea to > write the compiler in its own language, safe for special cases like > initial bootstrapping. That is. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 18:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 7:24 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-26 9:58 ` Georg Bauhaus 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-26 7:24 UTC (permalink / raw) "J-P. Rosen" <rosen@adalog.fr> writes: > Georg Bauhaus a écrit : >> Yes. Ada/Ed, though, being an Ada 83 interpreter, being >> written in SETL, not C, and being prototypical for GNAT, >> indicates that C is not necessarily the single language for >> writing high class compilers---as some have implied. >> I'm sure you know that is the case for some other languages, >> too. > In most programming languages, there is a relation between the structure > of the language itself and the kind of data it handles best. This is certainly true. > For this reason, and others like ease of porting, it is generally a > good idea to write the compiler in its own language, safe for special > cases like initial bootstrapping. That does not follow. If I have a language designed for manipulating databases, that means is is _not_ a good language for implementing a compiler. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 7:24 ` Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-26 9:58 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-26 10:11 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 10:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-26 9:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On 26.05.10 09:24, Stephen Leake wrote: > "J-P. Rosen" <rosen@adalog.fr> writes: > >> In most programming languages, there is a relation between the structure >> of the language itself and the kind of data it handles best. > > This is certainly true. > >> For this reason, and others like ease of porting, it is generally a >> good idea to write the compiler in its own language, safe for special >> cases like initial bootstrapping. > > That does not follow. If I have a language designed for manipulating > databases, that means is is _not_ a good language for implementing a > compiler. A database language may be compiled by itself if the program text is suitably stored? Notably, a compiler has tables, relational databases have tables; when a compiler establishes a hierarchy (a tree), a hierachical database does, too, a relational database uses ... relations. Surely the "source text" will be easily processed if it reflects the structural properties of the database---if it is stored as relations. For example, when an Ada compiler marks a block such as a loop with a name written by the programmer, or with an ad-hoc name that it creates itself, then a database table of loops can have those names, too. (And they would serve in unique keys.) Similarly, the database can establish a "byte code table" for executing a list of CRUD instructions... Hmm... It might in fact be interesting to store program information in tables. It is then possible to perform queries like "give me all loops involving variables of a type in T'Class." ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 9:58 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-26 10:11 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 10:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Wed, 26 May 2010 11:58:39 +0200, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a écrit: > Hmm... It might in fact be interesting to store program information > in tables. It is then possible to perform queries like "give me all > loops involving variables of a type in T'Class." ... A dedicated ASIS program could be able to do that. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 9:58 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-26 10:11 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 10:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-26 10:21 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, 26 May 2010 11:58:39 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > A database language may be compiled by itself if the program text > is suitably stored? I think that is likely possible. Interestingly relational "languages" are usually non Turing-complete. My wild guess is that it is the conversions to a relational representation of the source code and the conversion of the intermediate "relational" code to the machine code, which were impossible to accomplish. No matter how trivial they might be in a language like Ada. > Notably, a compiler has tables, relational databases have tables; > when a compiler establishes a hierarchy (a tree), a hierachical > database does, too, a relational database uses ... relations. Any directed graph is a binary relation. So it is not an existential problem, but it is a huge practical problem, because relational representation are extremely poor with handling trees. > Surely the "source text" will be easily processed if it reflects > the structural properties of the database---if it is stored as > relations. For example, when an Ada compiler marks a block such as > a loop with a name written by the programmer, or with an ad-hoc > name that it creates itself, then a database table of loops can > have those names, too. (And they would serve in unique keys.) > Similarly, the database can establish a "byte code table" for > executing a list of CRUD instructions... > > Hmm... It might in fact be interesting to store program information > in tables. It is then possible to perform queries like "give me all > loops involving variables of a type in T'Class." ... Due to total lack of abstractness relational representations require heavy flattening, down to the lowest level. So it would be "give me the first quark of the loop." Not very helpful. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 14:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-25 16:24 ` Nomen Nescio 2010-05-25 18:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Nomen Nescio @ 2010-05-25 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw) > Would they all have been using C (K&R C, that is) on non-C > platforms nevertheless, for implementing their compilers? It depends much on the platform. On UNIX, everything was unquestionably written in C, on IBM, unquestionably in assembler. Other platforms, I don't know. I wasn't arguing C is a good choice for anything, nor is C++. I'm a proud Ada bigot like most posters :-) I see no purpose for C or C++ except if you are a UNIX coder, because those OS are written using C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 16:24 ` Nomen Nescio @ 2010-05-25 18:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 19:50 ` John B. Matthews 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 18:24:31 +0200, Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> a écrit: > It depends much on the platform. On UNIX, everything was unquestionably > written in C, on IBM, unquestionably in assembler. Other platforms, I > don't know. At least, the Windows ABI is a C ABI, except for calling convention, which use the “invoked/callee clean the stack” of Pascal and the “parameters pushed right to left” of C (the calling convention defined by the Windows 32 ABI is a funny mix). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 18:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 19:50 ` John B. Matthews 2010-05-25 20:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 20:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: John B. Matthews @ 2010-05-25 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <op.vc9xlkncule2fv@garhos>, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Tue, 25 May 2010 18:24:31 +0200, Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> a > écrit: > > It depends much on the platform. On UNIX, everything was > > unquestionably written in C, on IBM, unquestionably in assembler. > > Other platforms, I don't know. > At least, the Windows ABI is a C ABI, except for calling convention, > which use the “invoked/callee clean the stack” of Pascal and the > “parameters pushed right to left” of C (the calling convention > defined by the Windows 32 ABI is a funny mix). Early versions of Windows [1] may have been influenced by an association with Apple's original Macintosh OS, which specified Pascal calling conventions [2] in the API, "Inside Macintosh" [3]. Bindings for an early version of GNAT on Mac OS 9 were translated from the corresponding Pascal interface specifications [4]. [1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows> [2]<http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.05/05.03/ToolboxfromAda/index.html> [3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Macintosh> [4]<http://home.roadrunner.com/~jbmatthews/ada.html> -- John B. Matthews trashgod at gmail dot com <http://sites.google.com/site/drjohnbmatthews> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 19:50 ` John B. Matthews @ 2010-05-25 20:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 20:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 21:50:36 +0200, John B. Matthews <nospam@nospam.invalid> a écrit: > Early versions of Windows [1] may have been influenced by an > association with Apple's original Macintosh OS, which specified Pascal > calling conventions Yes, the “push right ot left” is only for Windows 32 bits. Windows 16 bits as using the pure Pascal calling convention, that is, the “push left to right”. However, in both case, the invoked procedure clean the stack. Thanks to have noticed about an influence from Mac. I believe this is possible, indeed. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 19:50 ` John B. Matthews 2010-05-25 20:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 20:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 21:50:36 +0200, John B. Matthews <nospam@nospam.invalid> a écrit: > [2]<http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.05/05.03/ToolboxfromAda/index.html> Waw, “Calling the Mac ToolBox from Ada”. thanks again for this one. I will later attempt to build a cross compiler Windows -> Mac, and I guess this document gonna be useful to me to try to create Mac applications from Windows (unfortunately, I do not have a Mac to test :( will have to bother somebodies and ask them to test) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-25 14:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-25 16:24 ` Nomen Nescio @ 2010-05-25 18:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-25 18:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Tue, 25 May 2010 16:24:20 +0200, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a écrit: > Yes. Ada/Ed, though, being an Ada 83 interpreter, being > written in SETL, not C, and being prototypical for GNAT, > indicates that C is not necessarily the single language for > writing high class compilers---as some have implied. > I'm sure you know that is the case for some other languages, > too. > GNAT is one compiler where everyone can convince themselves, > since the sources are open to the public. Depends on the initial state. For precursor or near to be so, this starts with a bootstrap sequence : the compiler is written either in assembly, or C (or may be Basic), or something of the like. This state is short, and as soon as possible it is rewritten in the compiler's target language itself, and it's funfair time when the compiler is able to compile it self (a great and memorable moment of history). This first part of the history is short, then after, all goes with the compiler's target language (or a subset for safety and stability insurance). FreePascal is written in FreePascal. GCC is written in (GNU)C GNAT is written in Ada Janus (as far as I know and read about) is written in Ada SmallEiffel and its successor SmartEiffel was written in Eiffel. There are a few assembly written in assembly. For other kind of language, that's a bit different : you have some Prolog interpreters written in LISP and some LISP interpreters written in Prolog (for fun and proof of some concept... and it shows both are indeed Turing machines). This draw the line below which a language is an implementation language or a Domain Specific Language. If a compiler can be advantageously (mostly with efficiency in mind) written in it's target language, then, this target language is an implementation language. If not, it is probably a DSL (Domain Specific Language), like Prolog and LISP are (well, to be honest, LISP is a special case, as it could be an implementation language on some architectures ; assembly is a special case also). To be inquisitive : do some one have an idea of the implementation language of Basic interpreter and compilers ? I do not have an idea. -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) 2010-05-25 11:41 ` Anonymous 2010-05-25 12:08 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-27 13:20 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-28 2:31 ` Mike Sieweke 2010-05-28 5:01 ` AdaMagica 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-27 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25.05.10 13:41, Anonymous wrote: >> BTW, do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd guess C and asm. > > If you do some research you can find an incredible web site discussing the > Ada competition in some depth. And here on this very list we have some of > the people who participated in that competition who can surely answer your > question. > > I can tell you this for certain: the IBM implementation was not written in > C, at least not on an IBM machine. IBM didn't have a viable C compiler > until much later. Furthermore, assembler is the language of choice on IBM > platforms. It may have been written elsewhere and cross-compiled though. > I'll be interested to see answers to your question, thanks for asking it! > Another finding is a validated Ada compiler for BS2000 by Siemens, as reported in Computerwoche 1987-07-03: (Translation, ad hoc) "The compiler, made of modules, is written in the programming language Ada. According to the Munichians, it may be ported to other computers or retargetted to emit different binary code. A library is managing interfacing information for the separate translation modules. "The ``Analysator'' module performs lexical, syntactic, and semantic analysis of source text. It generates intermediate code that is at a high level of abstraction at this stage (see figure). The ``Expander'' module transforms intermediate code into another machine independent code. This code is close to usual machine code. From it, the code generator produces machine code. When moving to a different computer system a new specific code generator needs to be developed." Original: "Der modulartig aufgebaute Compiler ist in der Programmiersprache Ada geschrieben und kann nach Angeben der Münchner auf andere Rechner portiert beziehungsweise auf einen anderen Zielcode umgestellt werden. Eine Bibliothek verwaltet die Schnittstelleninformationen für die separaten Übersetzungsmodule. "Das Analysator-Modul führt die lexikalische, syntaktische und semantische Analyse des Quelltextes durch und erzeugt einen Zwischencode von zunächst noch hohem Abstraktionsniveau (siehe Grafik). Das Expander-Modul transformiert diesen Zwischencode auf einen weiteren maschinenunabhängigen Code, der aber den üblichen Maschinensprachen sehr nahe steht. Der Codegenerator produziert daraus die Maschinensprache. Bei der Umstellung auf ein anderes Rechnersystem muß jeweils ein neuer Codegenerator entwickelt werden." http://www.computerwoche.de/heftarchiv/1987/27/1160365/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) 2010-05-27 13:20 ` Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-28 2:31 ` Mike Sieweke 2010-05-28 5:01 ` AdaMagica 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Mike Sieweke @ 2010-05-28 2:31 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <4bfe71ba$0$7661$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-online.net>, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> wrote: > Another finding is a validated Ada compiler for BS2000 by Siemens, > as reported in Computerwoche 1987-07-03: > > (Translation, ad hoc) > > "The compiler, made of modules, is written in the programming > language Ada. According to the Munichians, it may be ported > to other computers or retargetted to emit different binary code. > A library is managing interfacing information for the separate > translation modules. In an interesting coincidence, I just came across an ad for Alsys Ada in the June 1986 Byte Magazine. Here's a quote from the ad: "The Alsys Ada compiler for the PC AT is not only validated, it's actually written in Ada. And produces code so efficient it executes faster than C or Pascal on tested benchmarks." The compiler cost $3000 (!), but that includes a 4 MB memory upgrade card. Times have changed just a bit. -- Mike Sieweke -- "Just a bit of harmless brain alteration, that's all..." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) 2010-05-27 13:20 ` Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-28 2:31 ` Mike Sieweke @ 2010-05-28 5:01 ` AdaMagica 1 sibling, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: AdaMagica @ 2010-05-28 5:01 UTC (permalink / raw) On 27 Mai, 15:20, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauh...@futureapps.de> wrote: > Another finding is a validated Ada compiler for BS2000 by Siemens, > as reported in Computerwoche 1987-07-03: I had the pleasure to do actual work with this compiler. I had known Ada since 1983 when I had taken a programming course. I liked the language from the beginning - it had all I was missing from Pascal, e.g. attributes like 'First. My daily work though was a FORTRAN Monte Carlo simulation, and I direly missed all the nice features Pascal (and Ada) provided. And imagine: The program was still on punched cards! I had to take a heavy pile of a few thousand cards to the dispatcher each time we ran it. But over time I could convince my boss to store it electronically and work on it with an editor (showing just 5 or so lines on a tiny screen). In my free time, I wrote just for fun a few Ada programs (which I could not run because of lack of a compiler). When I left that company, I was lucky to find a job where I had to translate an embedded real-time PEARL program for simulation purposes to Ada. This was this brand new Siemens compiler we used, and a few times I put my fingers into gory wounds or black holes and went to Siemens to see the compiler writers in their cubicles (a bunch of nice guys who liked to see their product put under stress). But overall, it was a very fine product with nice and helpful compiler messages. Sadly, Siemens later abandoned the compiler (put it right into the bin) for I don't know which other language, for the great dismay of the team. Siemens had also translated the Ada RM into German, and I have it still. You can imagine such a translation is a tremendously demanding work. No wonder there is no such translation for Ada 95 or later. Within Ada Germany (I am a founder member), we tried to set up a translation table for the technical terms of Ada 95, but this was never finished. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-24 19:34 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 11:41 ` Anonymous @ 2010-05-26 7:21 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-26 7:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-26 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Duke Normandin <dukeofperl@ml1.net> writes: > do you know what language Ada is written in? I'd guess > C and asm. "Ada" refers to a standard language definition. It is written in English (there may be translations to other languages available). Various Ada compilers are written in various languages. The GNAT compiler front end is written in Ada; the back end is gcc, written in C; the runtime is written in Ada, with a little bit of assembler for specific machines. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 7:21 ` Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Stephen Leake @ 2010-05-26 7:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 8:06 ` AdaMagica 2010-05-26 8:55 ` Ludovic Brenta 0 siblings, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 7:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Wed, 26 May 2010 09:21:52 +0200, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> a écrit: > "Ada" refers to a standard language definition. It is written in > English (there may be translations to other languages available). Really ? I've never seen it in an other language than English (my self, in the past, I though about doing a french translation, bug gave up : too much work and time required for strictly no return expected). -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 7:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 8:06 ` AdaMagica 2010-05-26 8:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-26 8:55 ` Ludovic Brenta 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: AdaMagica @ 2010-05-26 8:06 UTC (permalink / raw) On 26 Mai, 09:59, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> wrote: > Le Wed, 26 May 2010 09:21:52 +0200, Stephen Leake > <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org> a écrit:> "Ada" refers to a standard language definition. It is written in > > English (there may be translations to other languages available). > > Really ? > I've never seen it in an other language than English (my self, in the > past, I though about doing a french translation, bug gave up : too much > work and time required for strictly no return expected). For Ada 83, there's a translation into German (I've got it at home) by Siemens, which is quite good. For Ada 95, there's a translation into russian http://www.ada-ru.org/, but I can't judge the quality. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 8:06 ` AdaMagica @ 2010-05-26 8:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-26 8:33 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, 26 May 2010 01:06:06 -0700 (PDT), AdaMagica wrote: > On 26 Mai, 09:59, Yannick Duch�ne (Hibou57) <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> > wrote: >> Le Wed, 26 May 2010 09:21:52 +0200, Stephen Leake � >> <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org> a �crit:> "Ada" refers to a standard language definition. It is written in >>> English (there may be translations to other languages available). >> >> Really ? >> I've never seen it in an other language than English (my self, in the � >> past, I though about doing a french translation, bug gave up : too much � >> work and time required for strictly no return expected). > > For Ada 83, there's a translation into German (I've got it at home) by > Siemens, which is quite good. I have a Russian translation of the Ada 83 standard, published under one cover with Gehani. Both were excellent. > For Ada 95, there's a translation into russian http://www.ada-ru.org/, > but I can't judge the quality. This is not a translation of the standard, it is an original work on the principles and techniques of programming in Ada. It is good, IMO, deserves publishing in English and other languages. AFAIK all Rationales are translated into Russian. I cannot tell if the actual standard is. (I am not a big fan of translated standards.) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 7:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 8:06 ` AdaMagica @ 2010-05-26 8:55 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-26 9:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-27 6:49 ` J-P. Rosen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-26 8:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Yannick Duchêne wrote on comp.lang.ada: > I've never seen [the Ada standard] in an other language than English > (my self, in the past, I though about doing a french translation, > bug gave up : too much work and time required for strictly no return > expected). I have a copy of the Ada 83 standard in French at home. A real collector's item :) -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 8:55 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2010-05-26 9:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-26 9:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-27 6:49 ` J-P. Rosen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-26 9:24 UTC (permalink / raw) On 26.05.10 10:55, Ludovic Brenta wrote: > Yannick Duch�ne wrote on comp.lang.ada: >> I've never seen [the Ada standard] in an other language than English >> (my self, in the past, I though about doing a french translation, >> bug gave up : too much work and time required for strictly no return >> expected). > > I have a copy of the Ada 83 standard in French at home. A real > collector's item :) Is there a glossary in it, perhaps listing the "official" translations of key terms? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 9:24 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-26 9:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-26 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Wed, 26 May 2010 11:24:42 +0200, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> a écrit: > On 26.05.10 10:55, Ludovic Brenta wrote: >> I have a copy of the Ada 83 standard in French at home. A real >> collector's item :) Sure “collector” is the properly matching word here :) > Is there a glossary in it, perhaps listing the "official" > translations of key terms? If you interested in this, here is a list of such key term by key term translation: http://lglwww.epfl.ch/ada/glossaire/glossaire-v1.0.html note: I don't agree with some of the translations, and this is not an official translation, while may still be useful -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-26 8:55 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-26 9:24 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2010-05-27 6:49 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-27 7:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-27 6:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta a �crit : > I have a copy of the Ada 83 standard in French at home. A real > collector's item :) > Note that it is not just a translation; it is a French standard, and an integral part of the ISO standard 8652:1987 (at that time, standards had to be published in two languages, with equal standardization status). Actually, the reason why the ISO standard is 4 years older than the ANSI standard is that it had to wait for the french translation. -- --------------------------------------------------------- J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr) Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-27 6:49 ` J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-27 7:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-27 16:50 ` J-P. Rosen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-27 7:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Le Thu, 27 May 2010 08:49:23 +0200, J-P. Rosen <rosen@adalog.fr> a écrit: > Actually, the reason why the ISO standard is 4 years older than the ANSI > standard is that it had to wait for the french translation. Does it have something to deal with the AFNOR ? (Association française de normalisation, i.e. French office of normalization). Why is french so much important with international standards ? I've already noted, from long ago, the Unicode standard gives an as good place to french as it gives english. Or is it due to Ichbia, who was french ? (as this one is the Ada standard and he was one of the famous founders) -- There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check. C is less crappy than C++ => you should switch from C++ to C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-27 7:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) @ 2010-05-27 16:50 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-27 17:24 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 230+ messages in thread From: J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-27 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Yannick Duchï¿œne (Hibou57) a ï¿œcrit : > Le Thu, 27 May 2010 08:49:23 +0200, J-P. Rosen <rosen@adalog.fr> a ï¿œcrit: >> Actually, the reason why the ISO standard is 4 years older than the ANSI >> standard is that it had to wait for the french translation. > Does it have something to deal with the AFNOR ? (Association franï¿œaise > de normalisation, i.e. French office of normalization). Yes, it is the official AFNOR/EN standard. > Why is french so much important with international standards ? I've > already noted, from long ago, the Unicode standard gives an as good > place to french as it gives english. ISO has three official languages: English, French and Russian. At that time, a standard had to be published in two of these languages. Given that the English version had been written by French people sponsored by the US DoD, Russian was rapidly dismissed... -- --------------------------------------------------------- J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr) Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? 2010-05-27 16:50 ` J-P. Rosen @ 2010-05-27 17:24 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2010-05-27 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 27 May 2010 18:50:32 +0200, J-P. Rosen wrote: > Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) a écrit : >> Le Thu, 27 May 2010 08:49:23 +0200, J-P. Rosen <rosen@adalog.fr> a écrit: >>> Actually, the reason why the ISO standard is 4 years older than the ANSI >>> standard is that it had to wait for the french translation. >> Does it have something to deal with the AFNOR ? (Association française >> de normalisation, i.e. French office of normalization). > Yes, it is the official AFNOR/EN standard. > >> Why is french so much important with international standards ? I've >> already noted, from long ago, the Unicode standard gives an as good >> place to french as it gives english. > > ISO has three official languages: English, French and Russian. At that > time, a standard had to be published in two of these languages. Given > that the English version had been written by French people sponsored by > the US DoD, Russian was rapidly dismissed... Nevertheless, in 1988 Ada was published as a USSR state standard (ГОСТ 27831-88). In the same year an ANSI/MIL-STD-1815A translation was published without a reference to either ГОСТ or ISO. Funny. I don't have the ГОСТ 27831-88, but suppose it is an independent translation. In the late USSR there existed several competing departments responsible for hardware and software... A triumph of planned economy, as one could say. (:-)) -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?
@ 2010-06-09 10:00 AdaMagica
0 siblings, 0 replies; 230+ messages in thread
From: AdaMagica @ 2010-06-09 10:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
On 9 Jun., 08:31, "Nasser M. Abbasi" <n...@12000.org> wrote:
> But why no predefined package for complex IO also?
>
> Ada.Text_IO.Complex_IO is generic package, and I have to instantiate it
> for float to do complex IO? May be I overlooked something.
There is Complex_Text_IO, see RM A(2/3) and RM G.1.3(9.1/2)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 230+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-06-09 16:26 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 230+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2010-05-20 12:53 Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 13:59 ` Alex Mentis 2010-05-20 15:05 ` Pascal Obry 2010-05-20 15:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 15:30 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 18:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:36 ` Manuel Gomez 2010-05-20 19:53 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 23:17 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 23:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 14:07 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 0:30 ` Marc A. Criley 2010-05-21 2:17 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 20:34 ` Marc A. Criley 2010-05-21 5:18 ` Randy Brukardt 2010-05-22 14:54 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-21 16:01 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-22 9:57 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-21 5:09 ` Randy Brukardt 2010-05-21 14:33 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:06 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:19 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 1:08 ` tmoran 2010-05-20 15:33 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 17:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-20 18:49 ` Gautier write-only 2010-05-20 19:51 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 21:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-20 22:58 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 2:41 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-23 13:26 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 16:50 ` Bruno Le Hyaric 2010-05-23 17:37 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 20:32 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-23 20:59 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 9:00 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-24 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-24 13:10 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 2:07 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-25 2:02 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-25 9:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:36 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:50 ` Warren 2010-05-26 7:16 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-26 8:17 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-03 2:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-03 7:23 ` Niklas Holsti 2010-06-03 7:47 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-04 9:09 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-04 9:08 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-04 9:27 ` Brian Drummond 2010-06-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-04 10:55 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-04 12:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-04 12:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 4:00 ` Stephen Leake 2010-06-05 6:13 ` tmoran 2010-06-05 8:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 9:05 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 9:30 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 9:45 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 6:36 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2010-06-05 17:59 ` tmoran 2010-06-05 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 20:41 ` tmoran 2010-06-06 7:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 19:27 ` tmoran 2010-06-07 7:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 3:46 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 10:22 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-06 11:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 13:58 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-06 17:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 12:16 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-04 19:23 ` Fritz Wuehler 2010-06-04 21:10 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-04 22:02 ` Dirk Craeynest 2010-06-05 3:33 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-05 23:17 ` Non scrivetemi 2010-06-06 4:45 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-06 16:41 ` Fritz Wuehler 2010-06-07 2:15 ` Duke Normandin 2010-06-07 6:06 ` Non scrivetemi 2010-06-05 7:47 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-05 22:43 ` starwars 2010-06-04 21:09 ` Martin Krischik 2010-05-24 13:20 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 2:10 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-23 18:32 ` (see below) 2010-05-23 19:10 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 19:22 ` (see below) 2010-05-23 19:40 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 7:55 ` Martin 2010-05-24 12:05 ` (see below) 2010-05-24 13:27 ` Martin 2010-05-24 13:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-24 13:40 ` Martin 2010-05-24 15:19 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-20 21:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 7:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 8:04 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 9:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 12:27 ` Simon Wright 2010-06-05 12:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 13:39 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 16:02 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-05 18:50 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 20:14 ` (see below) 2010-06-06 7:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 7:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 7:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 8:25 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 9:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 11:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 11:45 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 12:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-06 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-06 21:22 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 7:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 7:56 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 11:13 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 12:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 14:12 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:31 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 14:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:00 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 15:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:28 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 15:50 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 16:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 12:56 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 13:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 14:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 15:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-07 15:34 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 16:25 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 16:30 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-06-07 17:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-08 6:54 ` Martin Krischik 2010-06-07 14:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 12:58 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-07 13:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-09 6:31 ` Nasser M. Abbasi 2010-06-09 16:26 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 19:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-06-05 22:56 ` Robert A Duff 2010-06-05 20:15 ` John B. Matthews 2010-06-06 4:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-06-05 21:16 ` Maciej Sobczak 2010-06-06 7:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-20 19:24 ` Anonymous 2010-05-20 19:35 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-20 19:59 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-21 20:10 ` Warren 2010-05-21 23:05 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:55 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-22 0:00 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-25 16:55 ` Warren 2010-05-22 12:23 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-22 13:17 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 0:34 ` Anonymous 2010-05-23 2:23 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-23 2:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-23 13:22 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 12:14 ` Bryan 2010-05-24 13:22 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 19:56 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-25 17:00 ` Warren 2010-05-25 2:11 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-20 21:37 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 11:00 ` jonathan 2010-05-21 14:21 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 17:29 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 19:52 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 20:11 ` Peter C. Chapin 2010-05-21 20:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-21 23:07 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-21 23:53 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-21 23:24 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-24 18:01 ` Luis Espinal 2010-05-24 19:34 ` Duke Normandin 2010-05-24 20:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-24 20:25 ` John B. Matthews 2010-05-24 22:21 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2010-05-24 22:38 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 11:41 ` Anonymous 2010-05-25 12:08 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-25 13:47 ` George Orwell 2010-05-25 14:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-25 16:15 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-25 17:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 17:42 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-25 18:16 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 21:27 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-25 18:13 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 7:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-26 21:22 ` Simon Wright 2010-05-26 21:35 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:16 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-25 18:08 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 7:24 ` Stephen Leake 2010-05-26 9:58 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-26 10:11 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 10:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-25 16:24 ` Nomen Nescio 2010-05-25 18:28 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 19:50 ` John B. Matthews 2010-05-25 20:20 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 20:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-25 18:06 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-27 13:20 ` Ada compilers written in ... (was: Re: Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used?) Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-28 2:31 ` Mike Sieweke 2010-05-28 5:01 ` AdaMagica 2010-05-26 7:21 ` Ada noob here! Is Ada widely used? Stephen Leake 2010-05-26 7:59 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-26 8:06 ` AdaMagica 2010-05-26 8:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2010-05-26 8:55 ` Ludovic Brenta 2010-05-26 9:24 ` Georg Bauhaus 2010-05-26 9:42 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-27 6:49 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-27 7:48 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) 2010-05-27 16:50 ` J-P. Rosen 2010-05-27 17:24 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2010-06-09 10:00 AdaMagica
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