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From: "Elias Salomão Helou Neto" <eshneto@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fun with C
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
Date: 2011-04-18T19:06:30-07:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <2693b280-bbe2-45ea-8355-e96ccbc381f9@a26g2000vbo.googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: fff5bc7b-01b9-4ced-a958-299584db19dc@cu4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com

On Apr 18, 10:22 pm, "George P." <george.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 18, 3:24 pm, Elias Salomão Helou Neto <eshn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, "George P." <george.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 17, 3:35 pm, Elias Salomão Helou Neto <eshn...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 17, 1:15 pm, KK6GM <mjsi...@scriptoriumdesigns.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 16, 11:59 pm, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauh...@futureapps.de>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On 4/17/11 8:26 AM, KK6GM wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Wow and wow.  I've been writing C all my adult life and I didn't
> > > > > > > realize this could or would happen.  I would have said that the
> > > > > > > unsigned would be promoted to signed.
>
> > > > > > > I'm going to include this example in my push to use Ada in our next
> > > > > > > project.
>
> > > > > > Be careful that there are no C savvy people around.
> > > > > > You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of C basics!
> > > > > > ("Stupid!")
> > > > > > That lack is not (in their view, and it's their view that counts)
> > > > > > a good start for asking for a different language.
>
> > > > > > Had you read section 2.7 of K&R (or A.6), you'd have expected
> > > > > > the result you got: arithmetic operators will convert their
> > > > > > arguments following the rules of the C language definition.
>
> > > > > Yes, I understand how the "stupid" argument works in the C community.
> > > > > I'm going to ask some other programmers tomorrow and see how many of
> > > > > them get this right.  I'm guessing our situation will be similar to
> > > > > the situation at the OP's workplace, where presumably competent
> > > > > programmers still got clobbered by this language-legal insanity.
>
> > > > Most programmers are competent in their views. Few really are and it
> > > > does not matter what is the actual language. For example, looks like
> > > > you feel you are competent in C, but are you?
>
> > > > "I would expect unsigned to int conversion" is just unacceptable!
> > > > Someone has written a line of code without knowing what it does. Is it
> > > > a language problem? Not that C is spectacular, but blaming the
> > > > language here is not fair. Minimally competent C programmers do know
> > > > about such conversions. If you don't you suck as a C programmer. If
> > > > you suck as a C programmer, please do not try to advocate any other
> > > > language over it, this _is_ stupid!
>
> > > > Maybe Ada over C is a smart choice, but advocating it without having a
> > > > strong knowledge of both is unacceptable.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Seems that someone never worked on projects of more then few thousand
> > > lines of code, supports multiple hardware platforms and yes after
> > > programming for 30+ years in it can tell C sucks.
>
> > > Wonder if sudden acceleration in Toyota cars was not caused by
> > > "intuitive" C typing conversions.
>
> > Now you're making hypothesis. I don't even know the problem the, less
> > so the language of the code, but rest assured that it was a
> > programmer's fault. Or a compiler bug. One thing that can't be the
> > cause is the language. Maybe lack of knowledge of it, but not the
> > language per se.
>
> > And nobody said type promotion rules in C are intuitive. They are what
> > they are, they won't change, is it smart to keep complaining instead
> > of go read a book?
>
> > You say C sucks, ok it is an opinion. I would say someone who doesn't
> > know type promotion rules and considers himself competent in C sucks
> > far more.
>
> > Elias.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Oh really? So C is the language of cyborgs that never have bad days,
> never argue with their girlfriends and never go late night drinking?
> And sure none of such people should be allowed to design embedded
> systems :-)

No, not cyborgs, it is the language of nerds. They don't drink and
about girlfriends, you've gotta be kidding! Also all of their days are
bad, so they're used to it.
:-)

Now, seriously, what I meant is that bashing C without knowing the
basics doesn't make anyone look smart. It is quite the opposite. And I
repeat, whining is not the way to go here. Yes, C is dangerous, unsafe
and difficult to master, but let us be men and use it well if
required.

I believe making assumptions about language behavior is danger. There
are historical reasons why C is the way it is. Some of them were
wrong, now we know, but it won't change - mainly because of the huge
codebase. So, let's have fun with C, why not? I have fun with C, C++,
TeX, Lisp, Pascal, Matlab, etc. Right now I am trying to find time to
study Ada - more fun! I am sure I will share you guys' view about how
Ada is good and safe, but it is really unlikely that I am going to
become such a sissy and fill this newsgroups with foolish complaints.

And as a side note, even sober, I have recently written a heavily
templated C++ ray tracer which I instantiated with unsigneds as
indices and signeds as difference types. There was a mixed expression
that gave me some trouble, and I do understand the problem people
mention in this thread. What I do not understand is how people can
show pride in not knowing the language! And I can't see me whining
that much because of something that won't (because it can't) change -
the C language.




  reply	other threads:[~2011-04-19  2:06 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 124+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-04-16 17:02 Fun with C George P.
2011-04-16 20:04 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-16 21:12   ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-04-16 21:42     ` jimmaureenrogers
2011-04-17  7:17     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-17  8:29       ` Martin
2011-04-17 18:19       ` George P.
2011-04-17  8:40     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-18  1:04     ` Peter C. Chapin
2011-04-18  2:14       ` George P.
2011-04-16 22:03   ` George P.
2011-04-17  6:26 ` KK6GM
2011-04-17  6:59   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-17 16:15     ` KK6GM
2011-04-17 19:35       ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-17 20:18         ` KK6GM
2011-04-18 19:47           ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-18 22:11             ` Peter C. Chapin
2011-04-17 22:26         ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-18 19:12           ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-18 20:56             ` KK6GM
2011-04-18 21:01             ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-18 21:20               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-19  2:43                 ` George P.
2011-04-19 18:05                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-04-19 19:34                     ` George P.
2011-04-19 20:08                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-19  1:10               ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-19 14:28                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-19 17:40                   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-04-21 14:52                   ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-21 18:58                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-21 19:27                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-04-28  5:13                         ` David Thompson
2011-04-28 13:41                           ` Hyman Rosen
2011-05-05  8:39                             ` David Thompson
2011-04-25 11:06                 ` Paul Colin Gloster
2011-04-25 11:00                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-25 12:12                     ` Martin
2011-04-25 18:39                       ` Paul Colin Gloster
2011-05-08 23:41           ` wilso
2011-05-20 10:41             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2011-05-20 16:04               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2011-04-18  0:12         ` George P.
2011-04-18 19:24           ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-19  1:22             ` George P.
2011-04-19  2:06               ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto [this message]
2011-04-19  2:37                 ` Bill Findlay
2011-04-19  3:00                 ` George P.
2011-04-17 19:19 ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-17 23:26   ` Gautier write-only
2011-04-17 23:43     ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-18 19:16       ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-18 23:10         ` Randy Brukardt
2011-04-19  1:36           ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-20 23:14             ` Randy Brukardt
2011-04-21 16:19               ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-21 17:36                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-21 17:43                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-04-21 19:44                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-22  6:16                   ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-22  9:21                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-22 13:18                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-04-22 15:17                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-23  2:08                       ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-23  7:23                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-23  9:42                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-23 10:23                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-23 18:37                           ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-23 21:36                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-24 11:27                               ` Peter C. Chapin
2011-04-24 13:53                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-24 19:07                                   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-24 19:46                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-24 21:20                                       ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-24 22:33                                         ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-25  7:09                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-25 20:46                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-04-25 21:19                                             ` George P.
2011-04-26  6:18                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-26  6:58                                               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-26  8:39                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-26 20:57                                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-04-27  8:00                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-27  8:19                                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-27  9:32                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-28  7:02                                                   ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-04-28  7:41                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-28 10:24                                                       ` Peter C. Chapin
2011-04-28 13:56                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-05-03  1:19                                                           ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-05-03  6:05                                                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-05-03  6:15                                                               ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-05-03  7:43                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-05-03 15:34                                                               ` Bill Findlay
2011-05-03  7:53                                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-05-03  9:29                                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-04-24 22:23                                       ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-25  7:10                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-24 20:37                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-23 15:23                         ` George P.
2011-04-23 17:28                           ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-23 17:52                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-04-23 18:11                               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-23 20:47                               ` George P.
2011-04-24 11:36                                 ` Peter C. Chapin
2011-04-25 11:43                                   ` Paul Colin Gloster
2011-04-23 16:56                         ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-04-23 18:45                           ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-22 12:15                     ` J-P. Rosen
2011-04-22 14:56                       ` Niklas Holsti
2011-04-21 23:29                 ` Randy Brukardt
2011-04-22  6:29                   ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-25 11:22                 ` Paul Colin Gloster
2011-04-18 19:13     ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-20  5:11   ` J-P. Rosen
2011-04-20 15:45     ` KK6GM
2011-04-20 19:04     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-04-20 21:09       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-04-20 22:52         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-04-21 14:18     ` Elias Salomão Helou Neto
2011-04-21 16:22       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-04-21 19:25         ` John B. Matthews
2011-04-23 23:07 ` Gerd
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