"is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

"is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Michael Erdmann]

Such question is always creating the wish in me
to prove that it is not true, but my experiences
with open source projects for Linux makes it
more and more diffcult to prove this.

If you look as the open source market which is
mainly driven by the commonly available operating
system (e.g Linux) you will find that C, C++ and a lot
of other lagnuages are mutch more dominant then Ada.
Typical for this situation is e.g. the fact that most
of the Linux distributions claim to support Ada, but
the compiler is in fact  NOT part of the distribution.
Or how many applications of a typlical Linux
distribution are written in Ada? I think the answer
is about 0!

Any how the situation is not that devistating as it
sounds, because we got GNAT and several support tools
(eg. GLIDE, GVD...) to develop Ada SW for Linux.
But the effect of this effort on the open source market
is more or less not existing. There are still no major
open source Ada applications available!

I think the nagative formulation which is behind the
wisenheimer question  "is Ada dead" araises from such
a situtation because most of the peoples asking this
kinf of questions are doing this from a beginner point
of view. In most cases beginners have there first
contact  with programing using open source systems
such as Linux, where using C/C++ is considered as normal
doing without reflecting about it.

In order to overcome this situation, the interest of
the peoples asking such questions should be attracted
by interresting Ada written applications, in order to
change there attitude in such a way, that they at
least ask "..is Ada an alternative for my project?".

The challenge for us is to gather peoples in the Ada
community building such open source applications.

I think good starting point for this was and is the
ALT but without the "non commercial" effort of the
whole  Ada community, this initiative is doomed!

If the Ada community fails to meet this challenge,
then at least for the "open source/Linux"  domain the
language has to be considred in fact  as dead,
just because nobody needs Ada there!

This does not mean, that Ada is not itensively used in
other domains, but the open source and linux community
will not participate from there work and such questions
will araise again and again and.......


Regards
   M.Erdmann


PS:
I still think Ada is the better language, but
for my next open source project i considder of
not using it because of all the disadvantages it
has working on an isolated Ada island.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Bobby D. Bryant]

In article <mailman.994606630.15710.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, "Michael
Erdmann" <michael.erdmann@snafu.de> wrote:


> If you look as the open source market which is mainly driven by the
> commonly available operating system (e.g Linux) you will find that C,
> C++ and a lot of other lagnuages are mutch more dominant then Ada.
> Typical for this situation is e.g. the fact that most of the Linux
> distributions claim to support Ada, but the compiler is in fact  NOT
> part of the distribution.

FWIW, recent versions of Red Hat Linux include both GNAT and GtkAda on
the Powertools disk.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[McDoobie]

In article <mailman.994606630.15710.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Michael
Erdmann <michael.erdmann@snafu.de> wrote:

> Such question is always creating the wish in me to prove that it is not
> true, but my experiences with open source projects for Linux makes it
> more and more diffcult to prove this.
> 
> If you look as the open source market which is mainly driven by the
> commonly available operating system (e.g Linux) you will find that C,
> C++ and a lot of other lagnuages are mutch more dominant then Ada.
> Typical for this situation is e.g. the fact that most of the Linux
> distributions claim to support Ada, but the compiler is in fact  NOT
> part of the distribution. Or how many applications of a typlical Linux
> distribution are written in Ada? I think the answer is about 0!
> 
> Any how the situation is not that devistating as it sounds, because we
> got GNAT and several support tools
> (eg. GLIDE, GVD...) to develop Ada SW for Linux.
> But the effect of this effort on the open source market is more or less
> not existing. There are still no major open source Ada applications
> available!
> 
> I think the nagative formulation which is behind the wisenheimer
> question  "is Ada dead" araises from such a situtation because most of
> the peoples asking this kinf of questions are doing this from a beginner
> point of view. In most cases beginners have there first contact  with
> programing using open source systems such as Linux, where using C/C++ is
> considered as normal doing without reflecting about it.
> 
> In order to overcome this situation, the interest of the peoples asking
> such questions should be attracted by interresting Ada written
> applications, in order to change there attitude in such a way, that they
> at least ask "..is Ada an alternative for my project?".
> 
> The challenge for us is to gather peoples in the Ada community building
> such open source applications.
> 
> I think good starting point for this was and is the ALT but without the
> "non commercial" effort of the whole  Ada community, this initiative is
> doomed!
> 
> If the Ada community fails to meet this challenge, then at least for the
> "open source/Linux"  domain the language has to be considred in fact  as
> dead, just because nobody needs Ada there!
> 
> This does not mean, that Ada is not itensively used in other domains,
> but the open source and linux community will not participate from there
> work and such questions will araise again and again and.......
> 
> 
> Regards
>    M.Erdmann
> 
> 
> PS: I still think Ada is the better language, but for my next open
> source project i considder of not using it because of all the
> disadvantages it has working on an isolated Ada island.


It seems to me that a way to get Ada more mainstream in the Linux world 
would be for us Ada programmers to start up alot more of our own projects.

Yeah, I know the old tale about re-inventing the wheel. But think about it, 
the concept of the wheel, in todays world is an abstract concept. Who's to
say that with Ada we cant develope better wheels. Better mail servers, 
better Web applications, better ad infinitum? I would also dare to say that 
Ada makes it so much easier to develope better replacements.

Heres a challenge...one that I'm taking up myself. For each Ada developer 
in the group here to find a piece of software that they like and find useful,
and do thier own little re-implementation of it in Ada95, with all the little
benefits that Ada95 offers implemented in addition to what comes standard
with the application.

Personally, I think the server side is where this type of challenge would 
truly show Ada95 for the gem that I've found it to be.

It doesnt have to be a huge project. Just a something simple. An email app, 
a database frontend/client, blah blah blah.

Then we can submit those new applications to the Open Source community,
or do whatever else with them.

Anyways, I figure if the developer likes the application and finds it useful,
then it shouldn't be too hard for them to develope interest in doing thier 
own little implementation.

What do you think?

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Michal Nowak]

>Heres a challenge...one that I'm taking up myself. For each Ada developer
>in the group here to find a piece of software that they like and find useful,
>and do thier own little re-implementation of it in Ada95, with all the little
>benefits that Ada95 offers implemented in addition to what comes standard
>with the application.
>
>Personally, I think the server side is where this type of challenge would
>truly show Ada95 for the gem that I've found it to be.
>
>It doesnt have to be a huge project. Just a something simple. An email app,
>a database frontend/client, blah blah blah.

[snip]

>What do you think?

I was also thinking about it. For me it's a good idea. I'm still newbie
to Ada and it will be a good exercise to get know Ada better. And it will
be a great pleasure to drop some Ada program to people. Maybe a CD-player?
There are some nice CD-Players for linux, but there was always something
missing. So I have intention to write one and share with it.
I hope I succeed... :)

-Mike

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Michael Erdmann]

comp.lang.ada-request@ada.eu.org schrieb:

> Von: "McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me>
> R�ckantwort: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
> Firma: The Caffinated Corps.
> An: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
> Diskussionsforen: comp.lang.ada
> Referenzen: <mailman.994606630.15710.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>
>
> In article <mailman.994606630.15710.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Michael
> Erdmann <michael.erdmann@snafu.de> wrote:
>
> > Such question is always creating the wish in me to prove that it is not
> ....................................
> > If you look as the open source market which is mainly driven by the
> > commonly available operating system (e.g Linux) you will find that C,
> > C++ and a lot of other lagnuages are mutch more dominant then Ada.
> > Typical for this situation is e.g. the fact that most of the Linux
> > distributions claim to support Ada, but the compiler is in fact  NOT
> > part of the distribution. Or how many applications of a typlical Linux
> > distribution are written in Ada? I think the answer is about 0!
> .................................................
> >
> > In order to overcome this situation, the interest of the peoples asking
> > such questions should be attracted by interresting Ada written
> > applications, in order to change there attitude in such a way, that they
> > at least ask "..is Ada an alternative for my project?".
> >
> > The challenge for us is to gather peoples in the Ada community building
> > such open source applications.
> >
> > I think good starting point for this was and is the ALT but without the
> > "non commercial" effort of the whole  Ada community, this initiative is
> > doomed!
> >
> > If the Ada community fails to meet this challenge, then at least for the
> > "open source/Linux"  domain the language has to be considred in fact  as
> > dead, just because nobody needs Ada there!
> >
> ............................................................
>
>
> It seems to me that a way to get Ada more mainstream in the Linux world
> would be for us Ada programmers to start up alot more of our own projects.

Yes. If you look at source forge there are about 5000 C based projects
and about 45 based upon Ada.

> Yeah, I know the old tale about re-inventing the wheel. But think about it,
> the concept of the wheel, in todays world is an abstract concept. Who's to
> say that with Ada we cant develope better wheels. Better mail servers,
> better Web applications, better ad infinitum? I would also dare to say that
> Ada makes it so much easier to develope better replacements.

May be writing clones of already existing software. If Ada is realy
the better approach developement and maintenance efforts will be
lower. This will have a significant impact on the willingnes of
distributors to include such software. But this is a long way till
then!

> Heres a challenge...one that I'm taking up myself. For each Ada developer
> in the group here to find a piece of software that they like and find useful,
> and do thier own little re-implementation of it in Ada95, with all the little
> benefits that Ada95 offers implemented in addition to what comes standard
> with the application.

It is nice to see that i have been understood.

> Personally, I think the server side is where this type of challenge would
> truly show Ada95 for the gem that I've found it to be.

This is where i completly agree. Ada is made to make relaible software
as it is required for servers (may be an open http server like zope)!

> It doesnt have to be a huge project. Just a something simple. An email app,
> a database frontend/client, blah blah blah.

I fact i am already working on such a project (see http://gnade.sourceforge.net/)
but the resonance in the community i quite low. But we are still looking for
peoples to build and SQLplus clone!

> Then we can submit those new applications to the Open Source community,
> or do whatever else with them.
>
> Anyways, I figure if the developer likes the application and finds it useful,
> then it shouldn't be too hard for them to develope interest in doing thier
> own little implementation.

I think, the problem is more deep. Most of the Ada developers are proffesinaly
engaged. This is different to the peoples that are working on Linux these are
often students and enthusiasts which are not completly engaged in professinal
work.

> What do you think?

More or less this is exaclty what i have in mind.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[DuckE]

"McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> wrote in message
news:f8827.179501$DG1.30031868@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
[...]
> Heres a challenge...one that I'm taking up myself. For each Ada developer
> in the group here to find a piece of software that they like and find
useful,
> and do thier own little re-implementation of it in Ada95, with all the
little
> benefits that Ada95 offers implemented in addition to what comes standard
> with the application.
>
> Personally, I think the server side is where this type of challenge would
> truly show Ada95 for the gem that I've found it to be.
>
> It doesnt have to be a huge project. Just a something simple. An email
app,
> a database frontend/client, blah blah blah.
>
> Then we can submit those new applications to the Open Source community,
> or do whatever else with them.
>
> Anyways, I figure if the developer likes the application and finds it
useful,
> then it shouldn't be too hard for them to develope interest in doing thier
> own little implementation.
>
> What do you think?

This would be especially profound if the application you clone is
notoriously buggy and you provide a solid version.

SteveD

>
> McDoobie
> chris@dont.spam.me

RE: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.]

From: Bob Leif
To: Michal Nowak et al.

Michal Nowak suggested, "Maybe a CD-player?"

There are two reasonably simple opportunities for the Windows ME and other
markets.
1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME.
2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for
backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful.

I believe that the target price should be between $10 to $20 for each
program with automated delivery via the Web.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of Michal Nowak
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 9:51 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?


>Heres a challenge...one that I'm taking up myself. For each Ada developer
>in the group here to find a piece of software that they like and find
useful,
>and do thier own little re-implementation of it in Ada95, with all the
little
>benefits that Ada95 offers implemented in addition to what comes standard
>with the application.
>
>Personally, I think the server side is where this type of challenge would
>truly show Ada95 for the gem that I've found it to be.
>
>It doesnt have to be a huge project. Just a something simple. An email app,
>a database frontend/client, blah blah blah.

[snip]

>What do you think?

I was also thinking about it. For me it's a good idea. I'm still newbie
to Ada and it will be a good exercise to get know Ada better. And it will
be a great pleasure to drop some Ada program to people. Maybe a CD-player?
There are some nice CD-Players for linux, but there was always something
missing. So I have intention to write one and share with it.
I hope I succeed... :)

-Mike

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <LHt27.323181$p33.6527095@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>, "DuckE" <nospam_steved94@home.com> writes:

> This would be especially profound if the application you clone is
> notoriously buggy and you provide a solid version.

The effect would be even more profound if the Ada replacement is buggy.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Michael Erdmann]

"Robert C. Leif, Ph.D." schrieb:

> ..................
> 1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME.
> 2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for
> backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful.

What ever you intend to do, the impportant question is how we are
boundling such acitivities. Either you all could setup project pages
e.g at sourceforge (if you comply to open source) or we setup one
central place some where to support such an initiative.

I would be willing to support such an effort to some extend!


Regards
   M.,Erdmann

PS:

One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of
the art IDE for the GNAT  available.  This is what i am interested
in.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Paul Storm]

Ada is no more dead than is BetaMax.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[McDoobie]

In article <mailman.994781951.32588.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Michael
Erdmann <michael.erdmann@snafu.de> wrote:

> "Robert C. Leif, Ph.D." schrieb:
> 
>> ..................
>> 1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME.
>> 2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for
>> backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful.
> 
> What ever you intend to do, the impportant question is how we are
> boundling such acitivities. Either you all could setup project pages e.g
> at sourceforge (if you comply to open source) or we setup one central
> place some where to support such an initiative.
> 
> I would be willing to support such an effort to some extend!
> 
> 
> Regards
>    M.,Erdmann
> 
> PS:
> 
> One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the
> art IDE for the GNAT  available.  This is what i am interested in.
> 
> 

I tend to teeter more towards to Free Software side of things, ala LGPL. 
However, I'm certainly in favor of commercial projects that develop 
software which is actually of commercial quality.(Much of what passes
as a commercial app today falls far short of that goal.)

A state of the art IDE sounds like an awsome idea. It could be implemented
for the GNAT system initially. If it was Open Source, it wouldn't be too 
difficult to expand it to include other toolchains as well.

Another thing that might help would be to develope a sort of ultra-reliable
toolset, sort of like the Praxis Systems Sparks toolchain, only directed 
more towards servers and the desktop market, rather than the embedded 
and specialized systems that the Spark tools are geared towards.

I'm still an up and coming Ada developer myself, just started learning not
long ago, so I'm not sure how much help I would be. Coming from a 
primarily procedural background(C, Assembler, TI-BASIC.) But I have 
brushed up against the OOP paradigm.(Perl, Python, a little Java.)  
So it would seem that a project like this could really help my training.

Anyways.  Good idea. Lets bounce the idea around a little and see if it's 
workable. Like I said, not sure how much help I would be of yet...but it 
doesnt hurt to try.

Laters

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Dmitry Kazakov]

On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:30:03 -0700, "Robert C. Leif, Ph.D."
<rleif@rleif.com> wrote:

>From: Bob Leif
>To: Michal Nowak et al.
>
>Michal Nowak suggested, "Maybe a CD-player?"
>
>There are two reasonably simple opportunities for the Windows ME and other
>markets.
>1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME.
>2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for
>backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful.
>
>I believe that the target price should be between $10 to $20 for each
>program with automated delivery via the Web.

What about thick (very thick (:-)), maybe a 3D engine) bindings to
OpenGL for Linux/Windows?

Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[chris.danx]

> > One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the
> > art IDE for the GNAT  available.  This is what i am interested in.


> A state of the art IDE sounds like an awsome idea. It could be implemented
> for the GNAT system initially. If it was Open Source, it wouldn't be too
> difficult to expand it to include other toolchains as well.

Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?


A while back I had the idea for an IDE that could handle different compilers,
and didn't need things on the PATH.  Anyway, I didn't get very far, but recently
I've been looking at the idea again, possibly using GWindows, and I'm looking
for ideas.

I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following

- Syntax Highlighting
- Project Management facilities
- Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
- Possibility an Object browser
- Ada Aware
- Non Specific Compiler support
- and others

What other features would you like to see?  What features would you not like to
see?

I would be willing to contribute time to this since my current project isn't
anywhere near the coding stage (not that coding of an IDE would start straight
off: DESIGN COMES FIRST), but I have a large gap in my time to fill (until
october) and would be genuinly interested in a SotA IDE for Ada 95.  Development
wouldn't stop after october, just slow down a little (if i was the only
developer!).

I would hope the project to be open source, possibly under the GPL or X
something or other licenses.

Regards,
Chris Campbell

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Marc A. Criley]

"chris.danx" wrote:
> 
> > > One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the
> > > art IDE for the GNAT  available.  This is what i am interested in.
> 
> > A state of the art IDE sounds like an awsome idea. It could be implemented
> > for the GNAT system initially. If it was Open Source, it wouldn't be too
> > difficult to expand it to include other toolchains as well.
> 
> Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?
> 
> A while back I had the idea for an IDE that could handle different compilers,
> and didn't need things on the PATH.  Anyway, I didn't get very far, but recently
> I've been looking at the idea again, possibly using GWindows, and I'm looking
> for ideas.
> 
> I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following
> 
> - Syntax Highlighting
> - Project Management facilities
> - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
> - Possibility an Object browser
> - Ada Aware
> - Non Specific Compiler support
> - and others
> 
> What other features would you like to see?  What features would you not like to
> see?

What's funny is that Emacs with the Ada-mode (and the other modes with
which it is bundled) already provides most of these features, just...in
the "Emacs idiom".

Emacs is my editor of choice, so I find it quite efficient as an IDE. 
(But then, I find I still have the VT keypad binding for DEC's "ed"
hardwired into my right hand :-)

Providing those features in a Visual Studio like IDE would obviously
expand the potential developer base.

Marc A. Criley
Senior Staff Engineer
Quadrus Corporation
www.quadruscorp.com

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[chris.danx]

> > Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?
> >
> > A while back I had the idea for an IDE that could handle different
compilers,
> > and didn't need things on the PATH.  Anyway, I didn't get very far, but
recently
> > I've been looking at the idea again, possibly using GWindows, and I'm
looking
> > for ideas.
> >
> > I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following
> >
> > - Syntax Highlighting
> > - Project Management facilities
> > - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
> > - Possibility an Object browser
> > - Ada Aware
> > - Non Specific Compiler support
> > - and others
> >
> > What other features would you like to see?  What features would you not like
to
> > see?
>
> What's funny is that Emacs with the Ada-mode (and the other modes with
> which it is bundled) already provides most of these features, just...in
> the "Emacs idiom".
>

I found that hard to adjust to, and the mappings difficult to learn.  That's why
I don't use Emacs except in rare cases.  I guess it's just a matter of personal
preference.

Chris Campbell

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Al Christians]

"Marc A. Criley" wrote:
> 
> "chris.danx" wrote:
> >
> >
> > What other features would you like to see?  What features would you not like to
> > see?
> 
> 
> Providing those features in a Visual Studio like IDE would obviously
> expand the potential developer base.
> 

Start with Visual Studio and Delphi, list the features, and divide them
into categories, eg  features to jettison, features to copy, features
to do better than they do them.  If you don't have some good number of
items on the 'do better' list, then maybe you should look at Mjolnar's
Beta IDE (free download available).  That has UML integrated into the 
IDE, and "supports a smooth transition from design diagrams to 
implementation code and vice versa. The design notation is a graphical 
syntax" (quote from their docs).  This would be roughly equivalent of
attempting to integerate a graphical case tool like Rose or Together 
into the IDE.  

Short of that, look at Genitor.  This also maintains a high-level view
of
the code, but it is more text-oriented and syntax-oriented than design-
oriented.  Nonetheless, if you are looking to make Ada more popular, you
will have to deal with beginners, and having an IDE that helps them
write
correct code and lets them fill in the blanks to write a program that 
compiles would be great.  


Al

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Marin David Condic]

I've got some version of EMACS here that I use on occasion when I'm on the
Sun side of things. I don't know what inspires such loyalty. It looks
basically like a thousand other editors I've seen except that it has more of
a VI flavor to it. I don't see any wonderful, spiffy features jumping up at
me that make me say "Hey! This is different!"

In fairness, I don't use it extensively and I've not studied whatever help
is available for it in any detail. I also do not have an "Ada Mode" for it,
so I don't know if this suddenly changes things dramatically. AFAIK, it
doesn't do many of the things I regularly see with CodeWright or the MSVC++
environment. It looks basically like an editor - and that's it. If all I am
getting is an editor - I'd rather have TPU - maybe LSE (but I found it
painful when it was trying to "help" me.) or TPU in EDT mode.

I suppose I'm asking to be told "RTFM" and "You're not doing it right!" but
if all the gold lies burried that deep, I'd blame the tool for that - not
me. If what it has is so spiffy, howcum it isn't immediately visible?

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pK_27.27350$B56.4717960@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?
> > >
> > > A while back I had the idea for an IDE that could handle different
> compilers,
> > > and didn't need things on the PATH.  Anyway, I didn't get very far,
but
> recently
> > > I've been looking at the idea again, possibly using GWindows, and I'm
> looking
> > > for ideas.
> > >
> > > I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following
> > >
> > > - Syntax Highlighting
> > > - Project Management facilities
> > > - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
> > > - Possibility an Object browser
> > > - Ada Aware
> > > - Non Specific Compiler support
> > > - and others
> > >
> > > What other features would you like to see?  What features would you
not like
> to
> > > see?
> >
> > What's funny is that Emacs with the Ada-mode (and the other modes with
> > which it is bundled) already provides most of these features, just...in
> > the "Emacs idiom".
> >
>
> I found that hard to adjust to, and the mappings difficult to learn.
That's why
> I don't use Emacs except in rare cases.  I guess it's just a matter of
personal
> preference.
>
> Chris Campbell
>

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Michal Nowak]

On 01-07-11, at 09:01, dmitry@elros.cbb-automation.de wrote:

>On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:30:03 -0700, "Robert C. Leif, Ph.D."
><rleif@rleif.com> wrote:
>
>>From: Bob Leif
>>To: Michal Nowak et al.
>>
>>Michal Nowak suggested, "Maybe a CD-player?"
>>
>>There are two reasonably simple opportunities for the Windows ME and other
>>markets.
>>1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME.
>>2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for
>>backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful.

Why not...I now realized, that I do not have any fax program on my
computer, so maybe write a liitle one :-)

>What about thick (very thick (:-)), maybe a 3D engine) bindings to
>OpenGL for Linux/Windows?

I wasn't good at graphics. However, I think I saw somewhere something
similiar, but I don't remeber where...

- Mike

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Al Christians]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> if all the gold lies burried that deep, I'd blame the tool for 
> that - not me. If what it has is so spiffy, howcum it isn't 
> immediately  visible?
> 

If you want to produce a product that stands tall in comparison to 
products produced by <big software company, but I won't mention any
names>,  realize that they have human factors experts who help them
reduce (or increase) the dumbth of their user interfaces to match
user expectations and increase user satisfaction (no fooling).  I
don't want to complain about emacs or any other particular piece of
open software, because it is extraordinary that such wonderful things
are freely available, but I somehow get the idea that maybe emacs, 
etc, weren't designed with human factors suited to the average person 
according to the experts foremost.      

There are many more things besides programming language that determine 
whether or not software meets its objectives.  One of these is human 
factors of the UI.  If you are not an expert in this area, you probably 
can't estimate accurately the percent of otherwise users lost on 
account of the UI if you build and  emacs-like interface --  0%, 1%, 
10%, 50%, or 99%? I surely DK. 

Presumably, with good software, this is all user-configurable.  But
it is daunting to a new user to try to reconfigure emacs, and this is
not something that a product that is aimed at drawing new users should
count on.  To gain a big number of new users, I'd guess you've got to 
have a standard Windows look and feel either standard or not more than 
2.5 clicks away from the default set up. I have seen an emacs setup 
that actually has hot keys on the pull down menus and responds to the 
Windows standard control keys for cut and paste, etc.  Could one 
combine that kind of setup into the Ada mode for emacs? 

If someone could write a program that would get all the emacs haters
to like emacs,  I'd nominate them for the Nobel Peace Prize.


Al

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Marc A. Criley]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> I've got some version of EMACS here that I use on occasion when I'm on the
> Sun side of things. I don't know what inspires such loyalty. It looks
> basically like a thousand other editors I've seen except that it has more of
> a VI flavor to it. I don't see any wonderful, spiffy features jumping up at
> me that make me say "Hey! This is different!"
> 
> In fairness, I don't use it extensively and I've not studied whatever help
> is available for it in any detail. I also do not have an "Ada Mode" for it,
> so I don't know if this suddenly changes things dramatically. AFAIK, it
> doesn't do many of the things I regularly see with CodeWright or the MSVC++
> environment. It looks basically like an editor - and that's it. If all I am
> getting is an editor - I'd rather have TPU - maybe LSE (but I found it
> painful when it was trying to "help" me.) or TPU in EDT mode.
> 
> I suppose I'm asking to be told "RTFM" and "You're not doing it right!" but
> if all the gold lies burried that deep, I'd blame the tool for that - not
> me. If what it has is so spiffy, howcum it isn't immediately visible?

Yes, the gold is buried that deep, it isn't immediately visible, and
it's the tool's fault.

In other words, your perception is not without merit :-)

As you've heard, Emacs is magnificently full-featured, it's just a
matter of  getting over the learning curve and becoming comfortable with
a keyboard-oriented editing style.  (I hate having to go back and forth
from keyboard to mouse, so I generally detest GUI-oriented editors.)

One day at work a few years ago I resolved to become comfortable with
Emacs and commit to it as my primary editor.  After three or four weeks
(yes, _weeks_!) I had ceased to struggle with remembering command
sequences, and after another month I was fairly proficient and therefore
could gradually become more familiar with its myriad capabilities and
put them to use as needed.

But as Chris said, it's largely a matter of personal preference.

Marc

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[tmoran]

>>>1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME.
>Why not...I now realized, that I do not have any fax program on my
>computer, so maybe write a liitle one :-)
  I have a fast Ada uncompressor for the fax bit stream that I'd
contibute, unrestricted.  Of course that leaves modem handling and UI...
  For "a reliable Ada replacement for popular but buggy software"
I'd suggest HP printer drivers. #.#
  What programs should be rewritten in Ada that aren't, at least
partly, IO drivers?

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[chris.danx]

"Al Christians" <achrist@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:3B4C7EBE.716A8BE8@easystreet.com...
> "Marc A. Criley" wrote:
> >
> > "chris.danx" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > What other features would you like to see?  What features would you not
like to
> > > see?
> >
> >
> > Providing those features in a Visual Studio like IDE would obviously
> > expand the potential developer base.
> >
>
> Start with Visual Studio and Delphi, list the features, and divide them
> into categories, eg  features to jettison, features to copy, features
> to do better than they do them.

My library consists of the following:

Visual Cafe 3 Pro, JBuilder 3 Pro&Standard, C++ Builder 4 Pro&Standard, Delphi 3
Pro, ObjectAda Special Edition and AdaGIDE.

I think the high Borland count may be detrimental since one Borland Ide is much
the same as another, just geared towards a different language.

> If you don't have some good number of
> items on the 'do better' list, then maybe you should look at Mjolnar's
> Beta IDE (free download available).  That has UML integrated into the
> IDE, and "supports a smooth transition from design diagrams to
> implementation code and vice versa. The design notation is a graphical
> syntax" (quote from their docs).  This would be roughly equivalent of
> attempting to integerate a graphical case tool like Rose or Together
> into the IDE.

Is that a feature developers would like? Integration of UML into the IDE?  I ask
since I have no experience with UML.  I did plan to gain familiarity with it and
did buy a book on it, but as yet haven't read it.


> Nonetheless, if you are looking to make Ada more popular, you
> will have to deal with beginners, and having an IDE that helps them
> write
> correct code and lets them fill in the blanks to write a program that
> compiles would be great.

I would like to cater for beginners, but I would also like to cater for the
seasoned professional.  Doing this properly will be difficult.  One possible
solution is that found in 1st Page 2000.  Basically, the IDE has 5 or 6
different modes.  Each mode is different in functionality.  The lowest level has
limited functionality while the highest level has the greatest functionality.
Another option would be to selectively disable features via an options section.
Just some random thoughts.


I'm off to think about how to reconfigure an IDE at runtime.  You know add tools
to menu's and add new wizards without recompiling (and re-installing) the ide.


Chris

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[McDoobie]

In article <HA137.175336$%i7.114237928@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>,
tmoran@acm.org wrote:

   I have a fast Ada uncompressor for the fax bit stream that I'd
> contibute, unrestricted.  Of course that leaves modem handling and UI...
>   For "a reliable Ada replacement for popular but buggy software"
> I'd suggest HP printer drivers. #.#
>   What programs should be rewritten in Ada that aren't, at least
> partly, IO drivers?

 A good, heavy duty network monitoring app. Along the lines of CheopsNG, 
with some Xtraceroute/Visualroute and the Ethereal frontend to tcpdump 
thrown in. 
 I'm working on learning to write network code so I can do it myself, but as 
my previous posts have stated, my coding skills are still pretty negligable.

 From a specifically Linux/Unix side, I think the Multimedia/video apps 
kinda stink right now. They could certainly use some work.

  I also think that pretty much any kind of server app could benefit from an
Ada implementation. Or at least benefit from some Ada contributions.

  We could also benefit alot by contributing extensions to existing apps,
written in Ada of course.

Basically, it seems that the best way to get some inertia going would
be for us to contribute as much source code to the Public and/or Open 
Source domain as possible, at least until we get some momentum built up.

  Anyways, those are a couple of ideas.

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[James Squire]

Michael Erdmann wrote:
> 
> Such question is always creating the wish in me
> to prove that it is not true, but my experiences
> with open source projects for Linux makes it
> more and more diffcult to prove this.
> 
> If you look as the open source market which is
> mainly driven by the commonly available operating
> system (e.g Linux) you will find that C, C++ and a lot
> of other lagnuages are mutch more dominant then Ada.
> Typical for this situation is e.g. the fact that most
> of the Linux distributions claim to support Ada, but
> the compiler is in fact  NOT part of the distribution.
> Or how many applications of a typlical Linux
> distribution are written in Ada? I think the answer
> is about 0!

The question "is Ada dead?" is feeling more and more to me like the
wrong question.  "Ada" is not a sentient being itself, it is a tool - a
means to an end.

The better question is: "are WE dead (if the Ada language falls in to
disuse)?"

And by dead, I don't literally mean the end of life as we know it or
anything so melodramatic.  I mean as in failure of crucial projects,
both from a company's point of view and from a national point of view
(for defense-related projects), as well as loss of jobs and livelyhood.

The question "is ada dead?" ends up being answered in populist modes
rather than strict scientific modes, and for me the answer only matters
inasmuch as it relates to what I think is the real question.

Just my $0.02 ...
-- 
James Squire             Send my Spam to mailto:webmaster@cyberpromo.com
MDA^H^H^HBoeing St. Louis                          http://www.boeing.com
Opinions expressed here are my own and NOT my company's
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't believe anybody."
'What a wonderful world you live in.'
"Yeah, well.  The rent is cheap, the pay is decent, and I got to make
    my own hours."
	-- Garibaldi and Dr. Franklin, "Hunter, Prey"

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[McDoobie]

In article <dKZ27.26879$B56.4674508@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
"chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote:


> Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?
> 
> 
> A while back I had the idea for an IDE that could handle different
> compilers, and didn't need things on the PATH.  Anyway, I didn't get
> very far, but recently I've been looking at the idea again, possibly
> using GWindows, and I'm looking for ideas.
> 
> I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following
> 
> - Syntax Highlighting
> - Project Management facilities
> - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
> - Possibility an Object browser
> - Ada Aware
> - Non Specific Compiler support
> - and others
> 
> What other features would you like to see?  What features would you not
> like to see?
> 
> I would be willing to contribute time to this since my current project
> isn't anywhere near the coding stage (not that coding of an IDE would
> start straight off: DESIGN COMES FIRST), but I have a large gap in my
> time to fill (until october) and would be genuinly interested in a SotA
> IDE for Ada 95.  Development wouldn't stop after october, just slow down
> a little (if i was the only developer!).
> 
> I would hope the project to be open source, possibly under the GPL or X
> something or other licenses.
> 
> Regards, Chris Campbell
> 

I would find an interface similar to Forte to be appealing. However, a 
couple important features would be extensive hotkey support (aka LyX), 
and customization of the look and feel.  I'm pretty open on what and how
many features it contains, as long as each "feature" has a real reason for
being there. It obviously should have plugins for working with an external
debugger(GVD anyone?), and the LRM and Annexes in a Help dialogue that's
easy to get to.

Anyways, that's kinda what I like to see.

Dont mind these guys that are busting your chops about Emacs.  If that's
what they like, then nothings stopping them from using it.  I certainly 
see the value in having an Emacs Ada-mode, and I beleive it should be 
supported by those who use Emacs to write Ada code. But sometimes Emacs 
(and vi) people can start to sound like a bunch of Jehovas Witnesses.
(JWs please dont take that remark personally.)

  I currently like to fiddle around with Grasp. It's currently my second 
favorite editor. My most fav is vi.

Dont know if this helps.

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[McDoobie]

In article <Oc237.18425$WS4.2897647@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
"chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Is that a feature developers would like? Integration of UML into the
> IDE?  I ask since I have no experience with UML.  I did plan to gain
> familiarity with it and did buy a book on it, but as yet haven't read
> it.
> 
> 
>> Nonetheless, if you are looking to make Ada more popular, you will have
>> to deal with beginners, and having an IDE that helps them write correct
>> code and lets them fill in the blanks to write a program that compiles
>> would be great.
> 
> I would like to cater for beginners, but I would also like to cater for
> the seasoned professional.  Doing this properly will be difficult.  One
> possible solution is that found in 1st Page 2000.  Basically, the IDE
> has 5 or 6 different modes.  Each mode is different in functionality. 
> The lowest level has limited functionality while the highest level has
> the greatest functionality. Another option would be to selectively
> disable features via an options section. Just some random thoughts.
> 
> 
> I'm off to think about how to reconfigure an IDE at runtime.  You know
> add tools to menu's and add new wizards without recompiling (and
> re-installing) the ide.
> 
> 
> Chris
> 

Ya know, any easy way to accomplish this would be to make the app 
"Themeable" ala KDE, Gnome, or Mozilla. I know theres a shareware app
out there for Windows now that makes the Windows desktop themeable 
also.
  Theres alot of flexibility there. Just set a default theme for the new-user
with plenty of instructions on customization for the expert.
  Of course, flexibility goes beyond themeing. One could provide plug-in
support for external apps, such as TeX/LaTeX if one wants to print thier
code,  a CVS browser. All kinds of possibilities.  One does not necessarily
need to code every last bit(pun intended) from scratch. After all, isnt that
one of Adas strong points? Code Reuse? Heh.

I've posted a bunch of times in the last day. I just realized, I'm on vacation.
Heh.

McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <dKZ27.26879$B56.4674508@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com> writes:

> Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?

I would define it as just like Think Pascal.

> I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following
> 
> - Syntax Highlighting
> - Project Management facilities
> - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
> - Possibility an Object browser
> - Ada Aware
> - Non Specific Compiler support
> - and others
> 
> What other features would you like to see?

User's choice of editor (plug-in).
Incremental compilation.
Trapping incorrect system calls during debugging.
Multiprocess debugging (not just multithread).

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Jeffrey Carter]

tmoran@acm.org wrote:
> 
>   What programs should be rewritten in Ada that aren't, at least
> partly, IO drivers?

How about a graphical web browser that doesn't crash frequently, and
gives the user control over cookies, cache, contacting domains other
than that requested by the user, redisplaying pages from cache, popping
up unwanted windows, ...

-- 
Jeff Carter
"You empty-headed animal-food-trough wiper."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[DuckE]

"McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> wrote in message
news:0zS27.187213$DG1.31590366@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
[...]
> >
> > One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the
> > art IDE for the GNAT  available.  This is what i am interested in.
> >
> >
>
> I tend to teeter more towards to Free Software side of things, ala LGPL.
> However, I'm certainly in favor of commercial projects that develop
> software which is actually of commercial quality.(Much of what passes
> as a commercial app today falls far short of that goal.)
>
> A state of the art IDE sounds like an awsome idea. It could be implemented
> for the GNAT system initially. If it was Open Source, it wouldn't be too
> difficult to expand it to include other toolchains as well.
>

Perhaps this new IDE could start with GVD, which already has cross platform
source level debugging built in, and add edit and compile capabilities.

Perhaps a little code reuse?

SteveD

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[chris.danx]

> I would find an interface similar to Forte to be appealing.

What's Forte when it's at home?  Is it free?

I ask since it's important to explore various IDEs and see what features work
and what are useless.  However, my requirements are going to be different from
other ppl's and this is going cooperation from ppl to get right.

I've been working on a small prototype that is specifically designed to play
with compiler invocation and configuration.  It should be at the release stage
in a few days, and I would hope ppl will take a peek at it and help me get the
compiler configuration interface into a usuable state.  It's not meant to be
used for serious work and isn't to be considered serious at all (it's a toy
designed to get opinions from folk).

{
it uses gwindows 0.3

how stable is gwindows?  I mean, how much of it is likely to change and become
incompatible in the future?

Should i stick with 0.3 or go for the pre-beta release (I don't imagine there
will be much difference _once I get it compiled_, and it won't impact on the
program at all)
}


> However, a
> couple important features would be extensive hotkey support (aka LyX),

Lyx?

Extensive hotkey support like reconfiguring hotkeys?


> and customization of the look and feel.

It is important to account for different tastes (may increase productivity),
however the level of customisation shouldn't be too great (or useless).


> I'm pretty open on what and how
> many features it contains, as long as each "feature" has a real reason for
> being there.

Oh yes, no point going down the _feature bloat_ route.  Another point on
"features" is not to ram them down the developers throat.  I get annoyed with
some IDEs that make you use a project to compile toy programs.  Anyone else get
annoyed at this?

> It obviously should have plugins for working with an external
> debugger(GVD anyone?), and the LRM and Annexes in a Help dialogue that's
> easy to get to.

I'd really like to have plugins but I don't have a clue how to do this, anyone
know a good introduction to plugin-ability on the windows platform?


Chris

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Bobby D. Bryant]

In article <3B4D0989.7A6120E@acm.org>, "Jeffrey Carter"
<jrcarter@acm.org> wrote:

> tmoran@acm.org wrote:
>> 
>>   What programs should be rewritten in Ada that aren't, at least
>> partly, IO drivers?
> 
> How about a graphical web browser that doesn't crash frequently, and
> gives the user control over cookies, cache, contacting domains other
> than that requested by the user, redisplaying pages from cache,
> popping up unwanted windows, ...

The Galeon browser does most of that, though it's not quite "there"
yet.  It's mostly just a wrapper around the Mozillar rendering engine.

In principle you could write an Ada wrapper for the engine as well,
though I don't have any idea how clean the Mozilla API is.  Nor do I
know how much of the functionality is in Mozilla vs how much is in
Galeon.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[McDoobie]

In article <23C37.25392$WS4.3875364@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
"chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote:


> What's Forte when it's at home?  Is it free?
> 
> I ask since it's important to explore various IDEs and see what features
> work and what are useless.  However, my requirements are going to be
> different from other ppl's and this is going cooperation from ppl to get
> right.

  Forte is the Java IDE produced by Sun Microsystems. They have a free 
community version available for download at thier java.sun.com website.
I really like the way I can configure it to pop up different code line 
selections at different spots while I'm coding. Some people find it gets
in the way, but I like it. It's off by default.  Anyways, it's a really nice 
interface, even professional, considering the price.($0)
I would highly encourage you to check it out.
 

> {
> it uses gwindows 0.3
> 
> how stable is gwindows?  I mean, how much of it is likely to change and
> become incompatible in the future?
> 
> Should i stick with 0.3 or go for the pre-beta release (I don't imagine
> there will be much difference _once I get it compiled_, and it won't
> impact on the program at all)

 One thing that I would find really irritating is another IDE designed to run
only on Windows. I'm a FreeBSD user (occasional Linux). Havent used 
Windows in eight years.(Except for when I have no choice, like at the office,
or when fixing my dad's computer.)
  It would certainly be important to keep the app as platform independant 
as possible. We have Windows programmers, OS X programmers, Linux and
Unix programmers, and yes...even BeOS programmers who would probably
find a good Ada IDE to be a major benefit.


>> However, a couple important features would be extensive hotkey support
>> (aka LyX),
> 
> Lyx?

  LyX is the Open Source WYSISWYM(What you see is what you MEAN.) 
GUI processor for the TeX/LaTeX document formatting system. TeX has 
been actively developed for 30+ years, and is about as bug free a system
as your likely to find anywhere. It's a contribution of one Donald E. Knuth 
to the computing world.  It's another software group worth researching.

> Extensive hotkey support like reconfiguring hotkeys?
 
   Yeah. Macros and hotkeys are where it's at for me. I was weaned on VI, so
I'm not very much into the Emacs style of clickity click, but I certainly 
appreciate those features.
 
>> and customization of the look and feel.
> 
> It is important to account for different tastes (may increase
> productivity), however the level of customisation shouldn't be too great
> (or useless).

	My thoughts exactly. Balance is the key.

> Oh yes, no point going down the _feature bloat_ route.  Another point on
> "features" is not to ram them down the developers throat.  I get annoyed
> with  some IDEs that make you use a project to compile toy programs.  Anyone
> else get annoyed at this?

	Your a programmer after my own heart.
> 
> I'd really like to have plugins but I don't have a clue how to do this,
> anyone know a good introduction to plugin-ability on the windows
> platform?
> 
	Corba and/or XML-RPC might be a good way to handle this. I'm not 
sure. Just learning about "Plugins" myself.

> 
> Chris
> 


McDoobie
chris@dont.spam.me

RE: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Original Message From "chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com>

>Oh yes, no point going down the _feature bloat_ route.  Another point on
>"features" is not to ram them down the developers throat.  I get annoyed with
>some IDEs that make you use a project to compile toy programs.  Anyone else 
get
>annoyed at this?

Oh yes! Reminds me on Delphi. I simply didn't get a two modules plus test 
program project to compile properly... Maybe, I'm just too stupid, but in 
the 
end I saw me writing a good ol' make file of ten lines (seven if you don't 
count the blank ones). *That* worked perfectly.


Vinzent.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Stefan Skoglund]

Al Christians wrote:
> have a standard Windows look and feel either standard or not more than
> 2.5 clicks away from the default set up. I have seen an emacs setup
> that actually has hot keys on the pull down menus and responds to the
> Windows standard control keys for cut and paste, etc.  Could one
> combine that kind of setup into the Ada mode for emacs?

Hrrmm, i would be terriby lost because it would kill my ability
to find my way in Emacs and i well started to use emacs in 1987 on a
PR1ME.

it would have to be a clearly documented tweak ie every hardline
emacs should know how to switch of the DAMN windows compatibility mode.

> If someone could write a program that would get all the emacs haters
> to like emacs,  I'd nominate them for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Agreed.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Mats Karlssohn]

"chris.danx" wrote:
%<
> Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please?

IMHO one should differentiate between the IDE and the editor. The editor
should be replaceable, so that I may use vi when I want to or emacs as
usual...

%<
> - Syntax Highlighting
> - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?)
> - Ada Aware

This is editor functionallity.

> - Project Management facilities
> - Possibility an Object browser
> - Non Specific Compiler support

This is IDE funcionality.


To allow the IDE to use the editor some kind of scripting is probably
needed. The IDE must also be able to insert sommands into the editor's
input stream. A very nice way of letting programs control other programs
is the arexx port of some Amiga programs.

-- 
Mats Karlssohn, developer                         mailto:mats@mida.se  
Mida Systemutveckling AB                          http://www.mida.se
Box 64, S-732 22 ARBOGA, SWEDEN
Phone: +46-(0)589-89808   Fax: +46-(0)589-89809

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Kjell Mesch]

Stefan Skoglund <stetson@ebox.tninet.se> wrote in 
news:3B52CD79.A3B1A8F5@ebox.tninet.se:

> Al Christians wrote:
>> have a standard Windows look and feel either standard or not more than
>> 2.5 clicks away from the default set up. I have seen an emacs setup
>> that actually has hot keys on the pull down menus and responds to the
>> Windows standard control keys for cut and paste, etc.  Could one
>> combine that kind of setup into the Ada mode for emacs? 
> 
> Hrrmm, i would be terriby lost because it would kill my ability
> to find my way in Emacs and i well started to use emacs in 1987 on a
> PR1ME.
> 
> it would have to be a clearly documented tweak ie every hardline
> emacs should know how to switch of the DAMN windows compatibility mode.
> 
>> If someone could write a program that would get all the emacs haters
>> to like emacs,  I'd nominate them for the Nobel Peace Prize. 
> 
> Agreed.
> 

Well emacs is the greatest, but it's not easy to learn how to use it.
But thats when U do know it there is no finer editor.
I guess if I had started using emacs i 1987 I would know it to perfection..
Wait a minute...I did start using It in 1987 on an Amiga, how come I learn 
new stuff still??? :-)

Kjell - where ever i put my .emacs thats my home

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[GianLuigi Piacentini]

Why not porting Ada to some popular microprocessor for 'small' embedded
systems - after all is what Ada was created for.  This marker is 99.9%
C, and there are a ** LOT ** of such systems all around.
Being in this busines since last year, I searched for Ada on such small
micros (8 to 16 bits) and found only C (The Lego I saw mentioned in some
posting here some time ago seems more didactical than a production-grade
system).  Anyway development is done on PC, and only the executable code
is downloaded into the micro, so it does not seem to be any restriction
on the compiler complexity.

So why not ?

Gigi Piacentini

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Barry Kelly]

In article <3B550073@MailAndNews.com>
	Vinzent Hoefler <vinzent@MailAndNews.com> wrote:

> Original Message From "chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com>
> 
> >Oh yes, no point going down the _feature bloat_ route.  Another point on
> >"features" is not to ram them down the developers throat.  I get annoyed with
> >some IDEs that make you use a project to compile toy programs.  Anyone else 
> >get annoyed at this?
> 
> Oh yes! Reminds me on Delphi.

Delphi doesn't use project files for individual applications - the
project file is the main "program <identifier>; uses <unitlist>; ...
begin ... end." bit.

The command line compiler hardly ever needs a makefile either - just
pass it the main filename and make sure all units are either in the
same directory or on the unit search path in dcc32.cfg.

Maybe it's a lack of experience?

-- Barry

-- 
  If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Team JEDI: http://www.delphi-jedi.org
NNQ - Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings
  http://web.infoave.net/~dcalhoun/nnq/nquote.html

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Barry Kelly <dynagen@eircom.net> wrote:

>Delphi doesn't use project files for individual applications - the
>project file is the main "program <identifier>; uses <unitlist>; ...
>begin ... end." bit.

Yes, true, but at least they call it so. Delphi Project File.

>The command line compiler hardly ever needs a makefile either - just
>pass it the main filename and make sure all units are either in the
>same directory or on the unit search path in dcc32.cfg.

How to tell the compiler that it has to compile the DLL before it can
run the test program that uses this DLL?

If I compiled the DLL Delphi complained about a missing target
application, if I compiled the test program, the test program either
complained about the missing DLL or it used an old version.

Classical deadlock, I'd say. ;)

>Maybe it's a lack of experience?

Surely. That's why I complained about it. :)


Vinzent.

Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us?

[Barry Kelly]

In article <9js64t$7va$05$1@news.t-online.com>
	Vinzent Hoefler <JeLlyFish.software@gmx.net> wrote:

> >Delphi doesn't use project files for individual applications - the
> >project file is the main "program <identifier>; uses <unitlist>; ...
> >begin ... end." bit.
> 
> Yes, true, but at least they call it so. Delphi Project File.

Rename it .pas. You can compile it on the command line, or
alternatively, File | Open | Select type as "Pascal project".

"Delphi Project File" is purely a shell concept; it distinguishes
"program | library" from "unit", allowing the user to double click on
the correct file from Explorer.

> How to tell the compiler that it has to compile the DLL before it can
> run the test program that uses this DLL?
> [...]

Compile them in either order. The compiler doesn't need either one to
finish the compilation; all you need to do is compile both.

Because Delphi compiles so fast, it isn't worth the trouble to do
anything more than stick two compilation commands in a batch file:

  @echo off
  dcc32 <app>
  dcc32 <dll>

YMMV, of course.

-- Barry

-- 
  If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Team JEDI: http://www.delphi-jedi.org
NNQ - Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings
  http://web.infoave.net/~dcalhoun/nnq/nquote.html