From: Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
Subject: Re: Ada, the best language with the not-so-best tool chain
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 17:30:22 +0000 (UTC)
Date: 2012-10-19T17:30:22+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <k5s2ne$h2c$1@dont-email.me> (raw)
In-Reply-To: d91a7ac2-65b7-4565-87d8-2496fad3c82c@googlegroups.com
On 2012-10-19, Patrick <patrick@spellingbeewinnars.org> wrote:
>> Will die for whom? Not for every-one, and certainly not for people to
>> which it values enough.
>
> This is just my uneducated opinion but I am guessing that companies like
> Adacore are "riding out" projects started before the DOD dropped the Ada
> mandate. It's great that the boeing 787 has Ada but if the 777 was C++ would
> they have switched to Ada? I think for the language to stay viable there has
> to be a "grass roots" base and that starts with it being easy to use for the
> everyday hobbyist.
Patrick is absolutely correct about the latter bit and I've strongly believed
for some time there's a good element of truth to the first bit as well.
I was going to have another go at trying to explain things, but instead I
will just ask a simple question: What are the dominant programming languages
on the F-35 and why ?
If people here will not listen to me, try listening to one of your own:
https://journal.thecsiac.com/issue/53/158
|About the Author:
|
|John H. Robb is the Senior Manager of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Air
|Vehicle Software team at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Fort Worth.
He says Ada was the better language. I certainly agree with that.
He also says (on choosing C and C++ instead of Ada) :
|Primary factors in this choice were training availability, tool support, and
|processor support. Another key factor was type casting, not as a language
|feature, but as a hiring feature. Many of the university students simply
|refused to work Ada as it was not seen as a marketable experience base. When
|all factors were considered, C++ and C emerged as the languages of choice
|(these depending on the processor chosen).
That's exactly what I and others have been trying to tell people here.
I wish I had known about this article a couple of weeks ago.
It's easy to ride on inertia for a while when you have a installed base and
can convince yourself that everything is ok. Unfortunately, in the end, that
usually only turns out to be a temporary thing.
Ada is going to be around for existing systems for a long time. If you want
Ada to actually _grow_ instead of declining however, you need to expose
people to Ada early on before the above opinions have had a chance to form,
and for the most part that means:
(a) catching them while they are doing projects on their own time,
(b) giving them tools which will work on the hobbyist/low end boards they
will be experimenting with, and
(c) understanding that hobbyists have a different ecosystem to the ones you
are used to, but which serves them well given the environment they operate
within and the projects they are typically interested in.
Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2012-10-19 17:30 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 170+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2012-10-07 17:34 Ada, the best language with the not-so-best tool chain Patrick
2012-10-07 18:43 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-07 22:35 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-08 7:35 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 12:10 ` The Ada community's attitude, was: " Simon Clubley
2012-10-09 9:20 ` pavel.klinkovsky
2012-10-12 12:09 ` Lucretia
2012-10-12 12:47 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-12 12:59 ` Lucretia
2012-10-16 20:05 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-16 20:10 ` phone.john.kern
2012-10-18 14:14 ` Lucretia
2012-10-18 17:05 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-12 13:28 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-11 4:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-07 18:49 ` Shark8
2012-10-07 20:21 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 7:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 11:28 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-08 12:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 12:40 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-10-08 13:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 13:57 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 14:02 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 19:53 ` Rego, P.
2012-10-08 20:27 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-08 14:00 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-10-08 14:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 14:30 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-10-08 16:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 16:54 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 18:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 18:29 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 19:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 20:44 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-09 9:13 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 9:59 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-10-09 12:16 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 15:06 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-10-09 16:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-18 21:53 ` Randy Brukardt
2012-10-19 11:23 ` Mark Lorenzen
2012-10-19 14:09 ` Patrick
2012-10-19 14:47 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-19 14:56 ` Patrick
2012-10-19 15:04 ` Vinzent Höfler
2012-10-19 17:30 ` Simon Clubley [this message]
2012-10-19 18:07 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-19 19:05 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-10-19 19:14 ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-10-19 18:24 ` Anh Vo
2012-10-19 18:40 ` Adam Beneschan
2012-10-19 21:44 ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-10-19 22:28 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-20 10:57 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-20 23:08 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-19 15:38 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-19 22:08 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-24 9:56 ` Paul Rubin
2012-10-24 11:21 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-24 13:13 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-24 16:16 ` Paul Rubin
2012-10-24 16:27 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-24 16:41 ` Paul Rubin
2012-10-24 16:57 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-24 17:36 ` Paul Rubin
2012-10-24 17:55 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-24 21:17 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-24 22:08 ` Paul Rubin
[not found] ` <4dqg885bcf05isnup07a28jrq8lbq5fknd@invalid.netcom.com>
2012-10-24 22:31 ` Paul Rubin
2012-10-25 8:42 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-29 14:51 ` mjsilva
2012-10-08 23:04 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 23:07 ` Patrick
2012-10-09 8:35 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-08 21:28 ` Ludovic Brenta
2012-10-08 23:58 ` Patrick
2012-10-09 5:59 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-09 8:02 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-09 8:06 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-10 5:56 ` Stephen Leake
2012-10-10 6:48 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-10 7:06 ` Ludovic Brenta
2012-10-10 8:17 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-12 12:27 ` Lucretia
2012-10-12 12:45 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-12 12:58 ` Lucretia
2012-10-09 8:10 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-10 15:26 ` Tero Koskinen
2012-11-08 9:36 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2012-11-08 13:52 ` Rego, P.
2012-11-08 21:50 ` Brian Drummond
2012-11-09 1:24 ` Randy Brukardt
2012-11-09 10:16 ` Brian Drummond
2012-11-10 8:05 ` Randy Brukardt
[not found] ` <ulat9855qcom15kt7lk68rsidf44uau4q5@invalid.netcom.com>
2012-11-15 1:21 ` Randy Brukardt
2012-12-17 16:33 ` Brian Drummond
2012-12-17 17:57 ` Shark8
2012-12-25 9:29 ` Paul Rubin
2012-12-26 10:38 ` Brian Drummond
2012-12-25 10:11 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-12-26 10:40 ` Brian Drummond
2012-10-08 19:17 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-08 20:16 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-09 9:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 9:57 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-09 12:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 12:51 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-09 13:01 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 12:04 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-09 13:18 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 15:53 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-09 17:08 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 18:26 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-09 20:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 23:23 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-10 7:36 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-10 13:13 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-10 13:45 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-10 15:44 ` Rego, P.
2012-10-10 17:52 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-10 15:40 ` Rego, P.
2012-10-10 16:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-11 9:41 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-11 12:01 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-09 12:29 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2012-10-09 12:55 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
[not found] ` <hok878l1k7s5i37k8uejv91t82ad41pipg@invalid.netcom.com>
2012-10-09 17:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-11 15:44 ` mjsilva
2012-10-11 16:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-11 16:55 ` mjsilva
2012-10-08 20:29 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-08 20:49 ` Simon Clubley
2012-10-11 15:22 ` mjsilva
2012-10-11 15:52 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-11 16:00 ` Patrick
2012-10-11 16:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-10-11 16:52 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-16 20:15 ` phone.john.kern
2012-10-18 22:33 ` Randy Brukardt
2012-10-18 22:52 ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-10-18 23:14 ` Randy Brukardt
2012-10-19 0:46 ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-10-18 23:58 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-19 22:49 ` Tero Koskinen
2012-10-22 14:25 ` mjsilva
[not found] ` <be26881c-6662-4830-b86f-34a7d8b25bf4@googlegroups.com>
2012-10-22 15:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-10-16 20:08 ` phone.john.kern
2012-10-08 18:34 ` Simon Wright
2012-10-08 18:57 ` Patrick
2012-10-08 20:13 ` Rego, P.
2012-10-07 20:33 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-11 16:22 ` mjsilva
2012-10-08 12:02 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-08 20:48 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-09 3:03 ` Stephen Leake
2012-10-09 3:24 ` Patrick
2012-10-09 5:44 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-10-10 5:52 ` Stephen Leake
2012-11-08 8:07 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2012-11-09 12:29 ` Stephen Leake
2012-11-09 12:56 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-11-20 21:25 ` Tero Koskinen
2012-11-20 22:15 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-11-21 16:18 ` Lucretia
2012-10-10 11:04 ` kalvin.news
2012-10-11 17:44 ` mjsilva
2012-10-16 20:13 ` phone.john.kern
2012-11-07 14:02 ` Kristoffer Nyborg Gregertsen
2013-01-02 7:01 ` Diogenes
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