Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Stephen Leake]

In the May 2005 issue of Dr Dobbs magazine, the "embedded space"
column by Ed Nisley has a brutal dismissal of Ada:

    the entire cadre of Ada programmers is reaching retirement age
    with no replacements on tap.

You can access the article at
http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9698/ddj0505p/0505p.html - you'll have
to pay and/or register if you are not a subscriber.

I sent this letter to the editor:

    In "Reliability: The Hard and the Soft", in the May 2005 issue, Ed
    Nisley dismisses Ada for DO-178B applications, saying "the entire
    cadre of Ada programmers is reaching retirement age with no
    replacements on tap". I'm surprised that Ed is propagating this
    myth.

    For one example, I'm not "nearing retirement age", and I've got
    two young engineers on my team, happily learning Ada and hard
    real-time programming. The AdaCore Academic Initiative
    (http://www.adacore.com/academic_members.php) has over 70 member
    universities, all training new Ada programmers. The Ada 2006
    standard will be released next year, adding Java-style interfaces
    to the language, along with other significant improvements. Many
    Ada vendors are making money and growing; see
    http://www.adaic.com/index.html for current information on the
    state of the Ada industry.

    The SPARK (http://www.praxis-his.com/sparkada/) subset of Ada is
    directly targeted to high-integrity systems, and is growing in
    popularity; several tool vendors are incorporating it (for
    example, ILogix - see
    http://www.ilogix.com/newsroom/newsroom_detail.cfm?pressrelease=2004_09_29_035924_126720pr.cfm).

    Dr Dobbs has always been good at helping programmers learn which
    tools are appropriate for their job. Ada is clearly a good tool
    for DO-178B applications, as well as many other applications. To
    dismiss Ada in this way is a disservice to your readers, and
    ultimately to the people who will be using the systems built by
    your readers.


It would help if other Dr Dobbs subscribers wrote in as well.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[gregg]

Stephen Leake wrote:
> In the May 2005 issue of Dr Dobbs magazine, the "embedded space"
> column by Ed Nisley has a brutal dismissal of Ada:
> 
>     the entire cadre of Ada programmers is reaching retirement age
>     with no replacements on tap.

He dismisses C/C++ as well.
Only to promote Java.
(it's a constant trend in Dr Dobb's lately, which I regret).


Argh, I think I'd be troubled to know that the plane I'm taking is 
running Java in some way -- considering the amount of Java code I've had 
to do.

Then again, Java is over-publicised. Not only for web applications, but 
also for such critical and passion-heaving missions as space probes for 
NASA.
I gather Ada (and especially 2006) really does need publicity too.
It is no time to keep being the one discreet, invisible thing making the 
whole architecture stable and performant, in the background.
And let's wipe out that Ariane V failure, too.


Java gains terrain through hype.
When I was doing my BS, my teacher in Object Oriented Programming had a 
moment of doubt because of Sun's erratic position (as this was before 
the Microsoft dollar-settlement), and said "God, what will we be using 
then ? We don't know."
I wish I had known Ada enough, back then, just to propose it.

Now it seems Java is on his way up again (even though Free Software 
proponents are worried with Sun, a free implementation of Java does not 
pose any problem to them).
And this include embedded thingies.


Shouldn't Ada developers be more prone to publicity ?
A sort of proselytism maybe (which I certainly dislike, but might be 
necessary).
An "ada-powered" sticker on projects ? :-)

Trying to gain such territories as PDAs, cellular phones, and 
everyday-devices, while claiming it ?


(my 2 cents of course, I'm hardly a beginner and certainly not a 
decision-maker, not enough power to promote the language in the 
institution I work for...)

But what about universities ? There is not much display and promotion 
for Ada there, either ?
(Not to mention the very few projects in Ada on sourceforge and 
freshmeat, for instance).


> It would help if other Dr Dobbs subscribers wrote in as well.
> 

Where did you write to ?
(Shall we need a petition or something ?)

++

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Ed Falis]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 18:15:28 -0400, gregg  
<greggNOSPAMarbage@NOSPAMfree.WANTEDfr> wrote:

> Shouldn't Ada developers be more prone to publicity ?
> A sort of proselytism maybe (which I certainly dislike, but might be  
> necessary).
> An "ada-powered" sticker on projects ?


A modest push in that direction is at http://www.adacore.com/aa_about.php

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[spammenot]

Im a beginner (2nd yr computing student) when it comes to Ada but I can 
at least give you an insight into what is happening within my university 
(Glasgow)

Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with 
an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The 
proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year 
courses instead of ada.

So it seems as though universities may be moving on as well.
> 
> But what about universities ? There is not much display and promotion 
> for Ada there, either ?
> (Not to mention the very few projects in Ada on sourceforge and 
> freshmeat, for instance).
> 
> 
>> It would help if other Dr Dobbs subscribers wrote in as well.
>>
> 
> Where did you write to ?
> (Shall we need a petition or something ?)
> 
> ++

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[David Emery]

Here's a challenge to your university:  Ask them to try to measure the 
relative effectiveness of the two languages, e.g. problems completed 
correctly by students, dropout rates, etc.  Some teacher can get a paper 
out of it (confirming or refuting some of John McCormick's 
observations), and the facts themselves would be very interesting...

			dave

spammenot wrote:
> Im a beginner (2nd yr computing student) when it comes to Ada but I can 
> at least give you an insight into what is happening within my university 
> (Glasgow)
> 
> Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with 
> an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The 
> proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year 
> courses instead of ada.
> 
> So it seems as though universities may be moving on as well.
> 
>>
>> But what about universities ? There is not much display and promotion 
>> for Ada there, either ?
>> (Not to mention the very few projects in Ada on sourceforge and 
>> freshmeat, for instance).
>>
>>
>>> It would help if other Dr Dobbs subscribers wrote in as well.
>>>
>>
>> Where did you write to ?
>> (Shall we need a petition or something ?)
>>
>> ++

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Stephen Leake]

gregg <greggNOSPAMarbage@NOSPAMfree.WANTEDfr> writes:

> Stephen Leake wrote:
>> In the May 2005 issue of Dr Dobbs magazine, the "embedded space"
>> column by Ed Nisley has a brutal dismissal of Ada:
>>     the entire cadre of Ada programmers is reaching retirement age
>>     with no replacements on tap.
>
> He dismisses C/C++ as well.

Well, of course. No-one thinks those languages are good for writing
DO-178B code.

> Where did you write to ?

The editor; jerickson@ddj.com

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Stephen Leake]

spammenot <"Simon(spammenot)"@skcs.co.uk> writes:

> Im a beginner (2nd yr computing student) when it comes to Ada but I
> can at least give you an insight into what is happening within my
> university (Glasgow)
>
> Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with
> an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The
> proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year
> courses instead of ada.
>
> So it seems as though universities may be moving on as well.

That would be "one university"; your university is not all
universities :).

Actually, it sounds like you are being given an opportunity to explain
why they should _not_ switch from Ada to Java.

At the very least, you should loudly protest them compromising
academic principles in favor of crass commercialism. Explain that you
appreciate learning good programming principles, before being forced
to learn inferior languages.

Don't just give in!

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Alex R. Mosteo]

gregg wrote:

> An "ada-powered" sticker on projects ? :-)

Like this? ;)

http://crawler.instantnetworks.net

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Larry Elmore]

Stephen Leake wrote:
> spammenot <"Simon(spammenot)"@skcs.co.uk> writes:
> 
> 
>>Im a beginner (2nd yr computing student) when it comes to Ada but I
>>can at least give you an insight into what is happening within my
>>university (Glasgow)
>>
>>Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with
>>an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The
>>proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year
>>courses instead of ada.
>>
>>So it seems as though universities may be moving on as well.
> 
> 
> That would be "one university"; your university is not all
> universities :).

If only it were only one university.  I see online that my old school
(Montana State University) has switched from Ada to Java for 1st and 2nd
year CS courses, as well, and it's C++ for most of the other classes.

--Larry

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Bernd Specht]

> Shouldn't Ada developers be more prone to publicity ?
> A sort of proselytism maybe (which I certainly dislike, but might be 
> necessary).
> An "ada-powered" sticker on projects ? :-)

But then, those projects should be visible to the world outside the Ada 
community. A sticker "ada-powered" on only Ada related tools would not help.
Where are open source projects written in Ada (useful for everybody)?

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[cdm]

> Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with
> an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The
> proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year
> courses instead of ada.

While I love Ada a programming language, I'd be mad if I specialized in
something at school and found very few jobs available for me when I
graduated.

The out of work programmers I know say you need very specific marketable
skills to get a job nowadays.

Sigh...

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[REH]

"cdm" <charlie.mccutcheon@hp.com> wrote in message
news:428DE693.F142BD35@hp.com...
> > Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with
> > an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The
> > proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year
> > courses instead of ada.
>
> While I love Ada a programming language, I'd be mad if I specialized in
> something at school and found very few jobs available for me when I
> graduated.
>
> The out of work programmers I know say you need very specific marketable
> skills to get a job nowadays.
>
> Sigh...
>
>

I may be a minority here, but I've never been asked what languages I knew in
an interview.  I've been using Ada in an embedded environment for several
years now, but I hardly knew a lick of it when I started.  I remember being
introduced to it briefly in an undergraduate course (an intro. to algorithms
course, I think) and just as one example how different languages implement
ADTs.

I don't know what types of jobs your friends say they've applied for or what
"specific marketable skills" they think you need.  I only know that when my
company is looking for new hires, they look for people with well-rounded
educations and an aptitude and willingness to learn.  We only look for some
one with a specific skill set on the rare occation that the skill is very
specific and the job must be done yesterday and there is not someone inhouse
that is available with those skills.  Other than that, my company is not
interested in some one whose skills set is narrowly defined.

REH

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

REH wrote:
> "cdm" <charlie.mccutcheon@hp.com> wrote in message

>>The out of work programmers I know say you need very specific marketable
>>skills to get a job nowadays.

> I don't know what types of jobs your friends say they've applied for or what
> "specific marketable skills" they think you need. 

Here (de_DE) there are those employers who will ask you "Do you know X well?"
and if you don't know X well, they say, "Sorry, not at the moment.".

This then means they currently have a customer who wants someone on
site to do a small job for a number of days, or for just a few weeks.
The optimum candidate is someone who doesn't need
to be trained. Skills of interest: latest Microsoft technology, PHP, etc.

This is of course free riding, or call it "clever", because
the employer is trying to avoid training/learning costs, and instead
only employs immediate cash cow people. In return, the employee is told
that he/she needs to work for this employer for only a year or so and
then is free to work for the then former employer's customers etc. at a
more reasonable net wage. Or wait, maybe not ...

(In cases, talented students are among their favorites, because they are
motivated yet very cost effective in that the non-wage labor
costs are low for students here (no unemployment insurance contribution
to make etc.). This practice isn't welcome by every professor, because
they think that students should learn, wherever that happens, including
at some commercial company.)


-- Georg



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Georg Bauhaus                              bauhaus@futureapps.de
Future Apps GmbH                        http://www.futureapps.de
phone: +49 203 306 1560

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[Jerome Hugues]

In article <Xns965B790F6F336BerndSpechgmxcom@151.189.20.10>, Bernd Specht wrote:
>> Shouldn't Ada developers be more prone to publicity ?
>> A sort of proselytism maybe (which I certainly dislike, but might be 
>> necessary).
>> An "ada-powered" sticker on projects ? :-)
> 
> But then, those projects should be visible to the world outside the Ada 
> community. A sticker "ada-powered" on only Ada related tools would not help.
> Where are open source projects written in Ada (useful for everybody)?

You would probably find some of them on sourceforge, or other similar
web sites.

PolyORB middleware for instance is visible on the ObjectWeb forge,
( http://polyorb.objectweb.org ) . Note it is one of the few non-Java
based projects in the place ;)

-- 
Jerome

Re: Dr Dobbs dismisses Ada

[*-> That Guy Downstairs <-*]

Ironically, I was an out of work engineer who got a job as a programmer 
BECAUSE I know Ada!
A very cool job, too.

"cdm" <charlie.mccutcheon@hp.com> wrote in message 
news:428DE693.F142BD35@hp.com...
>> Just last week each and every computing student was sent an email with
>> an invitation to a meeting regarding a change from ada to java.  The
>> proposal is to use java as our first language in 1st and 2nd year
>> courses instead of ada.
>
> While I love Ada a programming language, I'd be mad if I specialized in
> something at school and found very few jobs available for me when I
> graduated.
>
> The out of work programmers I know say you need very specific marketable
> skills to get a job nowadays.
>
> Sigh...
>
>