Win32Ada

Win32Ada

[Pascal OBRY]

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Hi (To => "Ada_Netters");

Where is the Win32Ada binding ? I have seen it one time but can't rebember
where !!!

Thanks,
Pascal.
-- 

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--| Pascal Obry                               Team-Ada Member |
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Re: Win32Ada

[Robert F. Estes]

Pascal OBRY wrote:
> =

> Hi (To =3D> "Ada_Netters");
> =

> Where is the Win32Ada binding ? I have seen it one time but can't rebembe=
r
> where !!!
> =

> Thanks,
> Pascal.
> --
> =

> --|------------------------------------------------------------
> --| Pascal Obry                               Team-Ada Member |
> --|                                                           |
> --| EDF-DER-IPN-SID- Ing=E9nierie des Syst=E8mes d'Informations   |
> --|                                                           |
> --| Bureau G1-010             e-mail: p.obry@der.edfgdf.fr    |
> --| 1 Av G=E9n=E9ral de Gaulle    voice : +33-1-47.65.50.91       |
> --| 92141 Clamart CEDEX       fax   : +33-1-47.65.50.07       |
> --| FRANCE                                                    |
> --|------------------------------------------------------------
> --|
> --|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pascal_obry
> --|
> --|   "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Win32Ada is an Ada 95 binding for Windows.
Release 2.0 works with the Microsoft Win32 Application Programming Interfac=
e available on Windows NT and Windows 95. =

Win32Ada has been tested on Intel 486 and Pentium platforms using Windows N=
T 3.5, Windows NT 3.51, Windows 95, and the =

GNAT 3.01 Ada 95 compiler.

More information can be found at the following URL:
http://sw-eng.falls-church.va.us/AdaIC/source-code/bindings/win32ada/win32a=
da.html

You can download the binding sources at the following URL:
http://sw-eng.falls-church.va.us/AdaIC/source-code/bindings/win32ada/win32a=
da.zip

-- =

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Robert F. Estes
Software Engineer
NASA Langley Research Center
Space Systems and Concepts Division    =

Spacecraft and Sensors Branch		PHONE:	804.864.8279
Mail Stop 328			        FAX:	804.864.1975
Hampton, Virginia  23681-0001		EMAIL:	r.f.estes@larc.nasa.gov
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Re: Win32Ada

[Carl J R Johansson]

Robert F. Estes (R.F.Estes@LaRC.NASA.Gov) wrote:

: Win32Ada is an Ada 95 binding for Windows.
: Release 2.0 works with the Microsoft Win32 Application Programming Interfac=
: e available on Windows NT and Windows 95. =

The installation did not work for me.

: Win32Ada has been tested on Intel 486 and Pentium platforms using Windows N=
: T 3.5, Windows NT 3.51, Windows 95, and the =

: GNAT 3.01 Ada 95 compiler.

I did use that compiler.

: More information can be found at the following URL:
: http://sw-eng.falls-church.va.us/AdaIC/source-code/bindings/win32ada/win32a=
: da.html

The page said that you needed the Win32 SDK which you have to pay
Microsoft some $100-$200 to get. 

carl.johansson@helsinki.fi




: You can download the binding sources at the following URL:
: http://sw-eng.falls-church.va.us/AdaIC/source-code/bindings/win32ada/win32a=
: da.zip

: -- =

: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
: Robert F. Estes
: Software Engineer
: NASA Langley Research Center
: Space Systems and Concepts Division    =

: Spacecraft and Sensors Branch		PHONE:	804.864.8279
: Mail Stop 328			        FAX:	804.864.1975
: Hampton, Virginia  23681-0001		EMAIL:	r.f.estes@larc.nasa.gov
: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Re: Win32Ada

[Ted Dennison]

Carl J R Johansson wrote:
> 
> Robert F. Estes (R.F.Estes@LaRC.NASA.Gov) wrote:
> 
> : Win32Ada has been tested on Intel 486 and Pentium platforms using Windows N=
> : T 3.5, Windows NT 3.51, Windows 95, and the =
> 
> : GNAT 3.01 Ada 95 compiler.
> 
> I did use that compiler.
> 
> : More information can be found at the following URL:
> : http://sw-eng.falls-church.va.us/AdaIC/source-code/bindings/win32ada/win32a=
> : da.html
> 
> The page said that you needed the Win32 SDK which you have to pay
> Microsoft some $100-$200 to get.


I hope it didn't need Win32 SDK for the linker. Last I heard Micro$oft
stopped including the linker with the Win32 SDK. You were supposed to 
buy Visual C++ to get the linker. That would be considerably more than 
$200.




-- 
T.E.D.          
                |  Work - mailto:dennison@escmail.orl.mmc.com  |
                |  Home - mailto:dennison@iag.net              |
                |  URL  - http://www.iag.net/~dennison         |

Re: Win32Ada

[Ted Dennison]

Tom Griest wrote:
> 
> for $49.95 to help solve this problem.  {It's not too cool to have
> to go out and buy a C compiler in order to use Ada!}

Speaking as one who had to explain this to his management, I can agree
wholeheartedly.

-- 
T.E.D.          
                |  Work - mailto:dennison@escmail.orl.mmc.com  |
                |  Home - mailto:dennison@iag.net              |
                |  URL  - http://www.iag.net/~dennison         |

Re: Win32Ada

[lrharris]

If you want Win32 bindings, the cheapest way is Thompson Software's $99
version of ActiveAda.  Not only do you get bindings, but also a very
good compiler and GUI editor.  They also sell a professional edition
for around $700 (I got it for a class project at the education discount
of $200).  They also have an Ada95 for Win95 development environment
that should be out before too long (i.e. this year).

Ray Harris, Chair
The University of Memphis Student Chapter of the ACM
email: harrisl@hermes.msci.memphis.edu

Re: Win32Ada

[Wiljan Derks]

Pascal OBRY wrote:
> 
> Hi (To => "Ada_Netters");
> 
> Where is the Win32Ada binding ? I have seen it one time but can't rebember
> where !!!
> You can find it on:
http://sw-eng.falls-church.va.us/AdaIC/source-code/bindings/win32ada/win32ada.html

Wiljan

Renaming record discriminants.

[Felaco]

I just tried do something like the following:

   type Record_Type(Has_Value : Boolean) is
       record
         case Has_Value is
            when True =>
	        Value : Integer;
            when False =>
                null;
         end case;

   Object : Record_Type := (Has_Value => True, Value => 1);

   Discriminant : Boolean renames Object.Has_Value; -- error
   Component : Integer renames Object.Value; -- error

(there may be a typo or something in there, this is off the top of my head)

The Intermetrics compiler I am using complains that:
Object.Has_Value depends on discriminants of an unconstrained formal 
parameter with default discriminants [RM_95 8.5.1(5)]

RM_95 8.5.1(5) reads:
   The renamed entity shall not be a subcomponent that depends on
   discriminants of a variable whose nominal subtype is unconstrained,
   unless this subtype is indefinite, or the variable is aliased. A
   slice of an array shall not be renamed if this restriction
   disallows renaming of the array. 

This says to me that the second renames I have is illegal.  I am not sure 
why the first renames is illegal.  Why can't I rename the discriminant?

Note that in the real code, the Object is an 'in' parameter.

I'm not sure if this is a language issue, a compiler problem, or just a 
lack of understanding on my part.  Could anyone help clarify?

Thanks...

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Felaco                               Phone: x4631 (Raynet 444, Local 842)
Raytheon Company                                         Email: bcf@ssd.ray.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Renaming record discriminants.

[Tucker Taft]

Felaco (bcf@ssd.ray.com) wrote:
: I just tried do something like the following:

:    type Record_Type(Has_Value : Boolean) is
:        record
:          case Has_Value is
:             when True =>
: 	        Value : Integer;
:             when False =>
:                 null;
:          end case;

:    Object : Record_Type := (Has_Value => True, Value => 1);

:    Discriminant : Boolean renames Object.Has_Value; -- error
:    Component : Integer renames Object.Value; -- error

: (there may be a typo or something in there, this is off the top of my head)

: The Intermetrics compiler I am using complains that:
: Object.Has_Value depends on discriminants of an unconstrained formal 
: parameter with default discriminants [RM_95 8.5.1(5)]

If it really complains, then this is a compiler bug.
I have not been able to reproduce this problem with
a recent version of this compiler, so you should submit
a formal bug report if you have a (ideally minimal) test 
case that shows the problem.

: ...  Why can't I rename the discriminant?

You can rename a discriminant.  Either the compiler has a bug,
or the example was more complicated and perhaps there was some
subtlety not communicated in the above description.

: Note that in the real code, the Object is an 'in' parameter.

In general, if you have a question like this, post an entire, ideally
minimal, test case.  When typing in a test from memory, it is very
easy to leave out the critical piece of information that could
explain the seemingly mysterious behavior.

: I'm not sure if this is a language issue, a compiler problem, or just a 
: lack of understanding on my part.  Could anyone help clarify?

It sounds like a compiler bug, but a complete minimal test
case would make it clearer.

: Thanks...
: Chris Felaco                        Phone: x4631 (Raynet 444, Local 842)
: Raytheon Company                    Email: bcf@ssd.ray.com

-Tucker Taft   stt@inmet.com   http://www.inmet.com/~stt/
Intermetrics, Inc.  Cambridge, MA  USA

Re: Renaming record discriminants.

[David Weller]

In article <Dp7Eoo.FLK.0.-s@inmet.camb.inmet.com>,
Tucker Taft <stt@henning.camb.inmet.com> wrote:
>
>If it really complains, then this is a compiler bug.
>...
>You can rename a discriminant.  Either the compiler has a bug, or 
>...
>It sounds like a compiler bug, 
>

What's your point, Tucker?



:-)


I know: Go away, I'm bugging you :-)

-- 
Ancient man: Web apps? Java!  OO stuff? Eiffel!  "Real-time" stuff? C/C++! 
Modern man: Web apps? Ada 95!  OO stuff? Ada 95!  "Real-time" stuff? Ada 95!
	Not a revolution...but evolution.  http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Ada

Re: Renaming record discriminants.

[Robert Dewar]

Tuck said:

":    type Record_Type(Has_Value : Boolean) is
:        record
:          case Has_Value is
:             when True =>
:               Value : Integer;
:             when False =>
:                 null;
:          end case;

:    Object : Record_Type := (Has_Value => True, Value => 1);

:    Discriminant : Boolean renames Object.Has_Value; -- error
:    Component : Integer renames Object.Value; -- error

: (there may be a typo or something in there, this is off the top of my head)

: The Intermetrics compiler I am using complains that:
: Object.Has_Value depends on discriminants of an unconstrained formal
: parameter with default discriminants [RM_95 8.5.1(5)]

If it really complains, then this is a compiler bug.
I have not been able to reproduce this problem with
a recent version of this compiler, so you should submit
a formal bug report if you have a (ideally minimal) test
case that shows the problem."

Gee Tuck, I trust the intermetrics compiler *does* complain about
the missing "end record" in the above example :-) :-)

Win32Ada

[BARDIN Marc]

    Hi all,
using win32ada binding patched i have always the same link error "ld: cannot
open -lwin32ada: no such file or directory".
- First a tried to compile and link tests program (of win32ada directory), i
had the same error. After i rename win32ada.a  as libwin32ada.a it was
better and i had some success (but some others compile & link errors..).
- But it was always impossible to link (same message error) a test program
in a other directory without no link to win32ada.

Any suggestion would be appreciated?
Thanks
Marc

Re: Win32Ada

[Henri]

COPY "win32ada.a" as "libwin32ada.a" in usr/lib

Re: Win32Ada

[Jerry van Dijk]

> using win32ada binding patched i have always the same link error "ld:
cannot
> open -lwin32ada: no such file or directory".
> - First a tried to compile and link tests program (of win32ada
directory), i
> had the same error. After i rename win32ada.a  as libwin32ada.a it was
> better and i had some success (but some others compile & link errors..).
> - But it was always impossible to link (same message error) a test
program
> in a other directory without no link to win32ada.
> 
> Any suggestion would be appreciated?

Read the instructions on my homepage _carefully_.


-- 
-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
-- Team Ada       | email: jdijk@acm.org
-- Ada & Win32: http://stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk

Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <01be0e3b$a980c340$5da65c8b@aptiva>,
  "Jerry van Dijk" <jvandyk@ibm.net> wrote:
> > using win32ada binding patched i have always the same
link error "ld:
> cannot
> > open -lwin32ada: no such file or directory".
> > - First a tried to compile and link tests program (of
win32ada
> directory), i
> > had the same error. After i rename win32ada.a  as
libwin32ada.a it was
> > better and i had some success (but some others compile
& link errors..).
> > - But it was always impossible to link (same message
error) a test
> program
> > in a other directory without no link to win32ada.
> >
> > Any suggestion would be appreciated?
>
> Read the instructions on my homepage _carefully_.


Note that a problem here is that the Win32 bindings are
copyrighted by Microsoft. This is very annoying, but is
a problem that has still not been resolved. I think the
copyright is somewhat dubious, since it could be viewed
as an attempt to copyright an interface dictated by
external requirements, something that has not been
supported by courts (e.g. in the Borland dispute).

But Intermetrics is taking the position that the copyright
is valid, which means that it is not possible to post and
distribute these bindings freely.

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Re: Win32Ada

[Dave Wood]

dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> 
> Note that a problem here is that the Win32 bindings are
> copyrighted by Microsoft. This is very annoying, but is
> a problem that has still not been resolved. I think the
> copyright is somewhat dubious, since it could be viewed
> as an attempt to copyright an interface dictated by
> external requirements, something that has not been
> supported by courts (e.g. in the Borland dispute).
> 
> But Intermetrics is taking the position that the copyright
> is valid, which means that it is not possible to post and
> distribute these bindings freely.

More specifically, distribution requires the licensee to
also license the Microsoft SDK, which is why we are able
to bundle it with ObjectAda.

The curious thing is how this happened in the first place.
If I understand the history correctly, Intermetrics made
the bindings through direct government funding, so how
did we get into a situation where taxpayers paid for
this, as they did GNAT, and yet have to get Bill's
permission to use it?  There must be some interesting
story there somewhere.

In any case, the real problem with Win32Ada is that it
is stuck at NT 3.5.  This is why we also make available
an alternate binding that actually evolves with the API
(and has no funny Gatesian license restrictions.)  Then 
again there are other options like the CLAW binding.

-- Dave Wood, Aonix
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: Win32Ada

[Dale Stanbrough]

dpw@cts.com wrote:

"In any case, the real problem with Win32Ada is that it
 is stuck at NT 3.5.  This is why we also make available
 an alternate binding that actually evolves with the API
 (and has no funny Gatesian license restrictions.)  Then 
 again there are other options like the CLAW binding."


Also we have totally open source products such as WINE, which 
provides for the Windows API for totally non Microsoft
environments such as Linux.

I wonder is someone could make an Ada binding to WINE, that
would just happen to have the lucky coincidence of working 
with Windows :-)

Dale

Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <364BE12F.F38A285C@cts.com>,
  dpw@cts.com wrote:


> More specifically, distribution requires the licensee to
> also license the Microsoft SDK, which is why we are able
> to bundle it with ObjectAda.


The version that is generally available contains no such
permission. It requires that USE of the binding require
that you also use the SDK, but at least the version I have
access to says nothing about such distribution permission.
Can one assume that this is a special deal that Aonix
specifically made with Microsoft, or are you just assuming
that it is OK to distribute if you are sure users will be
properly licensed to use the bindings. On the face of it
the copyright is exactly that, a copyright that prohibits
copying.

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Re: Win32Ada

[Dave Wood]

dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> 
> In article <364BE12F.F38A285C@cts.com>,
>   dpw@cts.com wrote:
> 
> > More specifically, distribution requires the licensee to
> > also license the Microsoft SDK, which is why we are able
> > to bundle it with ObjectAda.
> 
> The version that is generally available contains no such
> permission. It requires that USE of the binding require
> that you also use the SDK, but at least the version I have
> access to says nothing about such distribution permission.
> Can one assume that this is a special deal that Aonix
> specifically made with Microsoft, or are you just assuming
> that it is OK to distribute if you are sure users will be
> properly licensed to use the bindings. On the face of it
> the copyright is exactly that, a copyright that prohibits
> copying.

Yes, we have the necessary licensing arrangements
in place.

-- Dave Wood, Aonix
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <364E9C4A.E6F28A9F@cts.com>,
  dpw@cts.com wrote:

> Yes, we have the necessary licensing arrangements
> in place.
>
> -- Dave Wood, Aonix
> -- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
> -- http://www.aonix.com


The trouble is that this distribution and licensing does
not solve the problem, which is that these bindings are
hopelessly out of date, they cover only version 3.5, and
they also contain a number of errors. If we don't have a
freely distributable version which people can contribute
fixes and improvements to, then it is unlikely that any
one company will invest the necessary effort to bring
these bindings up to date. Aonix has gone the route of
providing a proprietary binding to solve this problem,
but that is hardly satsifactory in terms of the original
goals of the project.

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

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Re: Win32Ada

[dewar]

In article <364BE12F.F38A285C@cts.com>,
  dpw@cts.com wrote:
> If I understand the history correctly, Intermetrics made
> the bindings through direct government funding, so how
> did we get into a situation where taxpayers paid for
> this, as they did GNAT, and yet have to get Bill's
> permission to use it?  There must be some interesting
> story there somewhere.


Direct government funding does not guarantee data rights
to the public or the government. Indeed even in the case
of GNAT, which was only partially funded by the government,
there is absolutely nothing to stop ACT from deciding not
to distribute further versions, or to distribute further
versions with some proprietary components. Nothing that is,
except ACT's commitment to free software. The contract with
the government, long ago terminated, has nothing to say at
this point.

The original contract did however specify that GNAT be
released under the GPL, to ensure that at least the
versions that the government did help to fund would be
available. Apparently, in what I consider to be a serious
mistake, the government did not make the same requirement
for the Win32 bindings. It would of course have been
possible to generate clean room bindings free of Microsoft
control.

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

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Re: Win32Ada

[Jerry van Dijk]

dewar@gnat.com schreef in artikel <72inaf$8it$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> available. Apparently, in what I consider to be a serious
> mistake, the government did not make the same requirement
> for the Win32 bindings. It would of course have been
> possible to generate clean room bindings free of Microsoft
> control.

Is there any reason why such a binding could not be produced again,
using the latest API ?

-- 
-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
-- Team Ada       | email: jdijk@acm.org
-- Ada & Win32: http://stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk

Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <01be0ff2$30b31ea0$96a55c8b@aptiva>,
  "Jerry van Dijk" <jvandyk@ibm.net> wrote:
> dewar@gnat.com schreef in artikel
<72inaf$8it$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > available. Apparently, in what I consider to be a
serious
> > mistake, the government did not make the same
requirement
> > for the Win32 bindings. It would of course have been
> > possible to generate clean room bindings free of
Microsoft
> > control.
>
> Is there any reason why such a binding could not be
produced again,
> using the latest API ?


Of course there is no reason, it is simply a question of
who has the knowledge, skill, time and resources to make
this happen.

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

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Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <72kno3$q7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <01be0ff2$30b31ea0$96a55c8b@aptiva>,
>   "Jerry van Dijk" <jvandyk@ibm.net> wrote:
> > dewar@gnat.com schreef in artikel
> <72inaf$8it$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > > available. Apparently, in what I consider to be a
> serious
> > > mistake, the government did not make the same
> requirement
> > > for the Win32 bindings. It would of course have been
> > > possible to generate clean room bindings free of
> Microsoft
> > > control.
> >
> > Is there any reason why such a binding could not be
> produced again,
> > using the latest API ?
>
> Of course there is no reason, it is simply a question of
> who has the knowledge, skill, time and resources to make
> this happen.
>

Doesn't the "clean room" method actually require someone who has *no*
knowledge of the API (from Microsoft-derived sources) to do the work? I'd
think finding such people who would volunteer their time for this effort
would be difficult. That means it would have to be bankrolled by some company
or university, who would surely be sued by Microsoft anyway...

The AJPO was probably our last, best hope for making this happen.

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <72pd90$f3e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  dennison@telepath.com wrote:
> In article <72kno3$q7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>   dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <01be0ff2$30b31ea0$96a55c8b@aptiva>,
> >   "Jerry van Dijk" <jvandyk@ibm.net> wrote:
> > > dewar@gnat.com schreef in artikel
> > <72inaf$8it$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > > > available. Apparently, in what I consider to be a
> > serious
> > > > mistake, the government did not make the same
> > requirement
> > > > for the Win32 bindings. It would of course have
been
> > > > possible to generate clean room bindings free of
> > Microsoft
> > > > control.
> > >
> > > Is there any reason why such a binding could not be
> > produced again,
> > > using the latest API ?
> >
> > Of course there is no reason, it is simply a question
of
> > who has the knowledge, skill, time and resources to
make
> > this happen.
> >
>
> Doesn't the "clean room" method actually require someone
who has *no*
> knowledge of the API (from Microsoft-derived sources) to
do the work? I'd
> think finding such people who would volunteer their time
for this effort
> would be difficult. That means it would have to be
bankrolled by some company
> or university, who would surely be sued by Microsoft
anyway...
>
> The AJPO was probably our last, best hope for making this
happen.



Please don't make such allegations without some basis in
reality. The entire Win32 environment has been cloned, e.g.
in the context of OS/2, and Microsoft is not in the
business of suing people who do this!

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Re: Win32Ada

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <72pu4o$us2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dewarr@my-dejanews.com writes:

> Please don't make such allegations without some basis in
> reality. The entire Win32 environment has been cloned, e.g.
> in the context of OS/2, and Microsoft is not in the
> business of suing people who do this!

Didn't IBM have certain legal rights in this area when they split
with Microsoft in the development effort ?  Both market "DOS".

Larry Kilgallen

Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <1998Nov16.165814.1@eisner>,
  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote:
> In article <72pu4o$us2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
dewarr@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
> > Please don't make such allegations without some basis
in
> > reality. The entire Win32 environment has been cloned,
e.g.
> > in the context of OS/2, and Microsoft is not in the
> > business of suing people who do this!
>
> Didn't IBM have certain legal rights in this area when
they split
> with Microsoft in the development effort ?  Both market
"DOS".


What has that got to do with the OS/2 Win32 bindings?

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Re: Win32Ada

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <72qra5$p24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dewarr@my-dejanews.com writes:
> In article <1998Nov16.165814.1@eisner>,
>   Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote:
>> In article <72pu4o$us2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> dewarr@my-dejanews.com writes:
>>
>> > Please don't make such allegations without some basis
> in
>> > reality. The entire Win32 environment has been cloned,
> e.g.
>> > in the context of OS/2, and Microsoft is not in the
>> > business of suing people who do this!
>>
>> Didn't IBM have certain legal rights in this area when
> they split
>> with Microsoft in the development effort ?  Both market
> "DOS".
> 
> 
> What has that got to do with the OS/2 Win32 bindings?

At the time of the split, IBM may have gotten some rights to
Windows bindings.  One would have to see the contract to be sure,
and one would have to engage in endless newsgroup wrangling to
still not settle whether that was legally significant.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <72pu4o$us2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <72pd90$f3e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>   dennison@telepath.com wrote:
> > would be difficult. That means it would have to be
> bankrolled by some company
> > or university, who would surely be sued by Microsoft
> anyway...
>
> Please don't make such allegations without some basis in
> reality. The entire Win32 environment has been cloned, e.g.
> in the context of OS/2, and Microsoft is not in the
> business of suing people who do this!

Actually, Microsoft originally wrote OS/2 under contract from IBM, until
version 1.3. Supposedly Micrsoft stopped after that on IBM's insistence, but
they still have a cross-licensing agreement in place (see
http://www.teamos2.org/info/history.html for more information )

But in any event, if ACT wants to try to produce a liberated Win32 binding, I
certainly don't want to be seen as discouraging.

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[Al Christians]

dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> 
> 
> Please don't make such allegations without some basis in
> reality. The entire Win32 environment has been cloned, e.g.
> in the context of OS/2, and Microsoft is not in the
> business of suing people who do this!
> 

IBM put Win32 into OS/2 under a joint licensing deal with MS.
MS responded with Win32 1.1, which was not compatible with what 
IBM had in OS/2.  IBM then gave up on trying to keep up with MS's 
product evolution.  If it was too much for them, it may be hard 
to find a crew that's going to do it gratis for Ada.

Al

Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <72inaf$8it$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  dewar@gnat.com wrote:

> Direct government funding does not guarantee data rights
> to the public or the government. Indeed even in the case
> of GNAT, which was only partially funded by the government,
> there is absolutely nothing to stop ACT from deciding not
> to distribute further versions, or to distribute further
> versions with some proprietary components. Nothing that is,
> except ACT's commitment to free software. The contract with
> the government, long ago terminated, has nothing to say at
> this point.

Yes, but wouldn't the GPL have "something to say"? My understanding is that
GPL'ed software cannot be taken private, or bestowed with private components.

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <72pcj5$eg6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  dennison@telepath.com wrote:
> In article <72inaf$8it$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>   dewar@gnat.com wrote:
>
> > Direct government funding does not guarantee data
rights
> > to the public or the government. Indeed even in the
case
> > of GNAT, which was only partially funded by the
government,
> > there is absolutely nothing to stop ACT from deciding
not
> > to distribute further versions, or to distribute
further
> > versions with some proprietary components. Nothing that
is,
> > except ACT's commitment to free software. The contract
with
> > the government, long ago terminated, has nothing to say
at
> > this point.
>
> Yes, but wouldn't the GPL have "something to say"? My
understanding is that
> GPL'ed software cannot be taken private, or bestowed with
private components.



Once again, as has often been pointed out here, the GPL
has nothing at all to say about distribution, and the fact
that ACT continues to make public distributions of GNAT is
not dictated by the GPL!

As for components, you certainly cannot make modifications
to GPL'ed software without the result being GPL'ed, but if
the components are separate programs (GLADE, ASIS, and
other tools), there is absolutely no reason to make these
GPL'ed except that ACT has a policy of doing so!

Indeed a common method for proprietarizing things if that
is what you want to do, is to build separated components
that are proprietary, e.g. libraries, runtimes, tools etc.
This is not just theory, it has happened on more than one
occasion!


Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

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Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <72pv17$vp8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  dewarr@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <72pcj5$eg6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> As for components, you certainly cannot make modifications
> to GPL'ed software without the result being GPL'ed, but if
> the components are separate programs (GLADE, ASIS, and
> other tools), there is absolutely no reason to make these
> GPL'ed except that ACT has a policy of doing so!

Ahhh. I misunderstood "components" of Gnat to mean actual parts of the Gnat
program, rather than completely separate programs that just happen to be
helpful while developing software with Gnat. I would have been more likely to
use the term "tool" there (as I notice you did above).

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[Richard Kenner]

In article <72pcj5$eg6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dennison@telepath.com writes:
>Yes, but wouldn't the GPL have "something to say"? My understanding is that
>GPL'ed software cannot be taken private, or bestowed with private components.

Depends on what you mean by "private".  The GPL only imposes
limitations on what restrictions you can impose on copies of software
you choose to distribute, but it does not (and cannot) create any
obligation to distribute the software at all or to any specific person
or group of people.

Re: Win32Ada

[Al Christians]

Richard Kenner wrote:
> 
> In article <72pcj5$eg6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dennison@telepath.com writes:
> >Yes, but wouldn't the GPL have "something to say"? My understanding is that
> >GPL'ed software cannot be taken private, or bestowed with private components.
> 
> Depends on what you mean by "private".  The GPL only imposes
> limitations on what restrictions you can impose on copies of software
> you choose to distribute, but it does not (and cannot) create any
> obligation to distribute the software at all or to any specific person
> or group of people.

The GPL or some of the explanatory materials that were distributed with
it points out that there may be some conflicts between the GPL and other
contractual arrangements with other parties that bind particular users
of 
GPL'd items. The GPL does not bend on account of those arrangements, and 
it's up to the user of the GPL'd items to act according to the GPL or to 
refrain from using the GPL'd items.

If a GPL'd item or a derivative of a GPL'd item is created in a way that 
some other conflicting license or contract also applies, then whoever 
tried to satisfy both arrangements probably made a mistake.  Of course,
with something like Win32 bindings, the existence of a conflicting 
requirement would only be determined by direct contact with the
attorneys 
of MS, something we wouldn't wish on anyone, so the area is perhaps
inherently murky.        

Here's something that I don't understand about the GPL:  Does it allow
any restrictions on copying of GPL'd works?  Are any means by which I 
come into possession of a copy of GPL'd work legitimate, since copying 
is protected, or does the GPL allow the owner of a copy of a GPL'd 
work or its copyright holder to forbid me from copying it?  I suppose
that this might be germaine to discussions of Ada, given the sometimes
long lags between private and public releases of some GPL Ada tools.    
  

Al

Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <3654CC2B.63DD8D5D@easystreet.com>,
  Al Christians <achrist@easystreet.com> wrote:

> Here's something that I don't understand about the GPL:  Does it allow
> any restrictions on copying of GPL'd works?  Are any means by which I
> come into possession of a copy of GPL'd work legitimate, since copying
> is protected, or does the GPL allow the owner of a copy of a GPL'd
> work or its copyright holder to forbid me from copying it?  I suppose
> that this might be germaine to discussions of Ada, given the sometimes
> long lags between private and public releases of some GPL Ada tools.

Read the GPL yourself. From my reading, that would seem to be the case.
However, many methods of "acquiring" GPL'ed code might bring you into
conflict with your local and national penal codes. :-)

Lets give an example: Suppose we have a company named BDU who maintains a
really nifty GPL GUI builder. They continually make improvements, but only
publicly release these improvements at the pitifully slow rate of once a
year. Now suppose a crook who we will call CJ breaks into the offices of BDU
and copies the latest version of the GUI builder onto a floppy.

CJ is clearly guilty of breaking and entering. But does the GPL make it
illegal for him to possess that copy of the BDU GUI builder? Does the GPL
make it illegal for him to disseminate copies of the stolen version of the
GUI builder from his prison cell PC? No, and no.

How about civil court? Now let's suppose that BDU actually uses their
pitifuly slow release schedule to make themselves money. They give out
intermediate versions of their GUI builder to customers who pay BDU for
"support". Now word gets around on usenet about where to get CJ's stolen
intermediate version, and BDU looses half their "support" customers. Can they
sue CJ for the lost income?

Yes, you can always sue someone. But does the GPL protect CJ in court from
this charge? That's a bit foggy. The answer probably depends on the relative
quality of their laywers. :-)

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[Richard Kenner]

In article <734eo8$41v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dennison@telepath.com writes:
>Lets give an example: Suppose we have a company named BDU who maintains a
>really nifty GPL GUI builder. They continually make improvements, but only
>publicly release these improvements at the pitifully slow rate of once a
>year. Now suppose a crook who we will call CJ breaks into the offices of BDU
>and copies the latest version of the GUI builder onto a floppy.
>
>CJ is clearly guilty of breaking and entering. But does the GPL make it
>illegal for him to possess that copy of the BDU GUI builder? Does the GPL
>make it illegal for him to disseminate copies of the stolen version of the
>GUI builder from his prison cell PC? No, and no.

I'd agree the GPL doesn't make illegal, but I'd be very concerned
about a criminal charge of "possession of stolen property" against
anybody who knowingly accepted such material since it *was* stolen and
is a licenced and copyrighted work.

>How about civil court? Now let's suppose that BDU actually uses their
>pitifuly slow release schedule to make themselves money. They give out
>intermediate versions of their GUI builder to customers who pay BDU for
>"support". Now word gets around on usenet about where to get CJ's stolen
>intermediate version, and BDU looses half their "support" customers. Can they
>sue CJ for the lost income?

>Yes, you can always sue someone. But does the GPL protect CJ in court from
>this charge? That's a bit foggy. The answer probably depends on the relative
>quality of their laywers. :-)

Perhaps, but I'd say that in the hypothetical you give, BDU would have no
claim because they *are* distributing it to their customers who have no
legal prohibition against redistributing it.  The fact that it happened to
have been distributed due to a theft was incidental: BDU took no
"precautions" (and under the GPL indeed could taken none: that's the whole
point) against redistribution and thus would have no claim.

Note the parenthetical part of the above sentence is also a major issue.
By putting "support" in quotes above, you imply a situation where the
primary value being provided by BDU to its customers is access to the
latest version, not some actual service being provided (and you confirm
this by hypothesizing that half the customers would be lost if a copy got
out on the net).  But this is not a practical scenario because any of BDU's
customers could themselves offer the "support" at a lower price. So the
entire business model you hypothesize is impossible in the first place.

However, we can look at a similar hypothetical, where BDU hadn't released
the software *to anybody* because it wasn't finished yet.  Now suppose CJ
distributes *this* version, the origin of it gets muddled on the net, and the
reputation of BDU becomes one of a company that has badly broken software,
due to this software being available.

In that case, I *do* think that CJ would be liable for such damages because
BDU certainly took precautions to prevent that buggy version from getting
out.  However, the possibility of somebody in prison for breaking and
entering actually being able to *pay* such damages is low enough that this
entire scenario is vanishingly unlikely.

Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <73633i$aqs$1@news.nyu.edu>,
  kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Richard Kenner) wrote:
> In article <734eo8$41v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dennison@telepath.com writes:
> >Lets give an example: Suppose we have a company named BDU who maintains a
> >really nifty GPL GUI builder. They continually make improvements, but only
> >publicly release these improvements at the pitifully slow rate of once a
> >year. Now suppose a crook who we will call CJ breaks into the offices of BDU
> >and copies the latest version of the GUI builder onto a floppy.
> >
> >CJ is clearly guilty of breaking and entering. But does the GPL make it
> >illegal for him to possess that copy of the BDU GUI builder? Does the GPL
> >make it illegal for him to disseminate copies of the stolen version of the
> >GUI builder from his prison cell PC? No, and no.
>
> I'd agree the GPL doesn't make illegal, but I'd be very concerned
> about a criminal charge of "possession of stolen property" against
> anybody who knowingly accepted such material since it *was* stolen and
> is a licenced and copyrighted work.

I don't think that would be a problem. BDU was deprived of no physical
resource, and CJ was meerly copying the software from their hard-drives in
accordance with the software license. By the terms of the license, copying it
from their hard-drives is no different from copying it from their web server.

Perhaps the electrons on CJ's floppy were stolen from BDU's hard drives, but
it would be awfully tough to prove anyone further down the line recieved
those same stolen electrons from the BDU hard-drive.

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[Richard Kenner]

In article <73c3so$rsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dennison@telepath.com writes:
>In article <73633i$aqs$1@news.nyu.edu>,
>  kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Richard Kenner) wrote:
>> I'd agree the GPL doesn't make illegal, but I'd be very concerned
>> about a criminal charge of "possession of stolen property" against
>> anybody who knowingly accepted such material since it *was* stolen and
>> is a licenced and copyrighted work.
>
>I don't think that would be a problem. BDU was deprived of no physical
>resource, and CJ was meerly copying the software from their hard-drives in
>accordance with the software license. By the terms of the license, copying it
>from their hard-drives is no different from copying it from their web server.

Most jurisdiction have the concept of stealing data, so it doesn't have to
be a physical object to be "stolen property".  And the fact that a legitimate
possessor of the data is permitted to copy it isn't relevant to CJ.

>Perhaps the electrons on CJ's floppy were stolen from BDU's hard drives, but
>it would be awfully tough to prove anyone further down the line recieved
>those same stolen electrons from the BDU hard-drive.

Well, proof is indeed a possible problem, but could be gotten around in
various ways.  For example, CJ might testify against all those he sold
copies to in exchange for a reduced sentence.

Re: Win32Ada

[Richard Kenner]

In article <3654CC2B.63DD8D5D@easystreet.com> Al Christians <achrist@easystreet.com> writes:
>Richard Kenner wrote:
>> Depends on what you mean by "private".  The GPL only imposes
>> limitations on what restrictions you can impose on copies of software
>> you choose to distribute, but it does not (and cannot) create any
>> obligation to distribute the software at all or to any specific person
>> or group of people.
>
>The GPL or some of the explanatory materials that were distributed with
>it points out that there may be some conflicts between the GPL and other
>contractual arrangements with other parties that bind particular users of 
>GPL'd items. The GPL does not bend on account of those arrangements, and 
>it's up to the user of the GPL'd items to act according to the GPL or to 
>refrain from using the GPL'd items.

That's true, but is totally irrelevant to above issue.

>If a GPL'd item or a derivative of a GPL'd item is created in a way that 
>some other conflicting license or contract also applies, then whoever 
>tried to satisfy both arrangements probably made a mistake.  Of course,
>with something like Win32 bindings, the existence of a conflicting 
>requirement would only be determined by direct contact with the
>attorneys of MS, something we wouldn't wish on anyone, so the area is perhaps
>inherently murky. 

I also don't follow this, since the Win32 bindings are not GPL'd.  They are
distributed along with GNAT on NT, but, as the GPL says, 

    In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program
    with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of
    a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under
    the scope of this License.

>Here's something that I don't understand about the GPL:  Does it allow
>any restrictions on copying of GPL'd works?  

Only those specifically allowed by the GPL, which is that the copied
work must have precisely the same GPL restrictions on it.

>Are any means by which I come into possession of a copy of GPL'd work
>legitimate,

Not necessarily, since there is the possibility of a restriction by a
third party unknown to the original author or person who made the
copy.  This gets into a very gray area of the GPL.  The kind of thing
I'm talking about is a government deciding that some GPL'd encryption
software is "too secure" and forbidding export or a determination
that a patent of some third party has been infringed.  Paragraph 7 of
the GPL makes it clear that if somebody is aware of these
restrictions, they are not permitted to distribute the software at
all, but if they don't know about them you can easily have the sort of
situation you asked about: where a copy is made but that copy is not
legitimate.

Re: Win32Ada

[dennison]

In article <732be5$dd3$1@news.nyu.edu>,
  kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Richard Kenner) wrote:
> In article <72pcj5$eg6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dennison@telepath.com writes:
> >Yes, but wouldn't the GPL have "something to say"? My understanding is that
> >GPL'ed software cannot be taken private, or bestowed with private components.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "private".  The GPL only imposes
> limitations on what restrictions you can impose on copies of software
> you choose to distribute, but it does not (and cannot) create any
> obligation to distribute the software at all or to any specific person
> or group of people.
>

Yes. I suppose the choice of that word was unfortunate. By "private" I meant
redistributed with souce unvailable and/or a restrictive commercial-type
license. Obviously you can refuse to give someone your source if you also
refuse to give them your binaries.

--
T.E.D.

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Re: Win32Ada

[dewar]

In article <364BE12F.F38A285C@cts.com>,
  dpw@cts.com wrote:
> The curious thing is how this happened in the first place
> If I understand the history correctly, Intermetrics made
> the bindings through direct government funding, so how
> did we get into a situation where taxpayers paid for
> this, as they did GNAT, and yet have to get Bill's
> permission to use it?  There must be some interesting
> story there somewhere.


By the way, the total amount of government money spent on
GNAT is far less than has been spent on other Ada
technologies that the government has directly and
indirectly funded, and most of those stay *completely*
proprietary. I don't think the fact that tax payers pay
for something has much to do with the tax payers getting
free use!

I also note that at this stage, even excluding the gcc back
end, and looking just at the Ada 95 component, the total
government funding on GNAT accounts for only a small
fraction (less than half) of the development cost of GNAT.
The remainder of the development costs have been funded
directly by Ada Core Technologies, which continues to
make substantial investments in continued development of
GNAT and related technologies.

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

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Re: Win32Ada

[Tom Moran]

>technologies that the government has directly and
>indirectly funded, and most of those stay *completely*
>proprietary
  I understand there was some wording in a recent bill that allows
Freedom of Information Act access to university research etc that used
to be disclosed only by the investigator or the granting agency.
Anbody know how that might affect software development in the future?

Re: Win32Ada

[Dave Wood]

dewar@gnat.com wrote:
> 
> In article <364BE12F.F38A285C@cts.com>,
>   dpw@cts.com wrote:
> > The curious thing is how this happened in the first place
> > If I understand the history correctly, Intermetrics made
> > the bindings through direct government funding, so how
> > did we get into a situation where taxpayers paid for
> > this, as they did GNAT, and yet have to get Bill's
> > permission to use it?  There must be some interesting
> > story there somewhere.

[Needless to say, nothing derogatory was intended
here - I was talking about the original GNAT 
investment, not whatever proprietary follow-on
has gone on since by ACT or anyone else.  By contrast, 
to my knowledge Win32Ada was 100% taxpayer funded, and 
IMHO ought to be a public resource.  Allowing rights
to an uninvolved 3rd party (Microsoft), seems 
completely nutty to me.]

> By the way, the total amount of government money spent on
> GNAT is far less than has been spent on other Ada
> technologies that the government has directly and
> indirectly funded, and most of those stay *completely*
> proprietary. I don't think the fact that tax payers pay
> for something has much to do with the tax payers getting
> free use!

I don't want to get into a protracted discussion 
on this since I have no special expertise in it
and you are doubtless one of the top-ranking
experts, but my gut instinct is that if something
is 100% funded by tax dollars, it ought to be 100%
in the control of the taxpayers or of their elected
representatives, at least if the creator of the
product has no intention to support and evolve it.  
I can see that an exception might be a flat-out 
grant where a priori there are no strings attached, 
such as for basic research.

I'm reminded of ALS, a big fat waste of tax money if
ever there was one (and how many of us had at least
some peripheral involvement with THAT mess?)  If I 
remember correctly, the government retained control 
of the resulting software and made it available on 
mag tape for something like $25, more or less cost 
of materials and shipping/handling.

Or, well, maybe I'm wrong.

-- Dave Wood, Aonix
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: Win32Ada

[dewarr]

In article <364EA0F6.A66B888F@cts.com>,
  dpw@cts.com wrote:
> dewar@gnat.com wrote:
>
> [Needless to say, nothing derogatory was intended
> here - I was talking about the original GNAT
> investment, not whatever proprietary follow-on
> has gone on since by ACT or anyone else.  By contrast,
> to my knowledge Win32Ada was 100% taxpayer funded, and
> IMHO ought to be a public resource.  Allowing rights
> to an uninvolved 3rd party (Microsoft), seems completely
> nutty to me.]
>

The government often funds under agrements that will leave
entire proprietary rights in the hands of companies. Indeed
my understanding is that the academic edition of Object
Ada, in which the taxpayers invested directly more than
half what it spent on GNAT, is in this category. That is
by no means unusual, and by no means necessarily
inappropriate. It really depends on what the government
hoped to achieve.

In the case of GNAT, it was of the essence in terms of the
governments interest (to make a freely available high
quality Ada 95 compiler available for academic use) to
insist on the GPL licensing of the initial version (and
that the copyrights be assigned to the FSF).

In the case of the compiler work funded later as the
academic Ada compiler project, the government made a
specific decision that there was no requirement that it
should be freely distributed in OSS form.

I think what happened in the Intermetrics bindings cases
was that the government DID intend that the resulting
bindings be freely available, but clearly did not properly
write this into the contract as they did with GNAT. The
GNAT contract is quite remarkable in that it includes the
entire text of the GPL, and very specifically required the
use of the GPL, and the assignment of the copyright to the
Free Software Foundation.

This was in my view a significant error in the contractual
instruments for this work. The other major oversight was
the failure to provide for continued maintenance.

We are now investigating the possibility of a clean room
implementation of a thin binding to Win32 that will once
and for all clear up this unfortunate confusion. This is
incidentally exactly the sort of project that one would
hope can be successfully achieved using the OSS model. The
copyright on the Win32 bindings is particularly unfortunate
from this point of view, since it is one thing for
companies like Aonix and ACT to work out how they can
distribute the Win32 bindings in their current copyrighted
form, and quite another for volunteers to distribute
modified and corrected and improved versions.

By the way, I certainly did not take anything Dave said as
derogatory, I just wanted to make the GNAT funding
situation clear. We still run into people who think that
the government is directly supporting GNAT, a situation
that of course has not been true for four years. We did not
even seek such continued funding after the initial contract
ended, since we felt that the commercial support model was
more appropriate.

There is no doubt that there could not have been a GNAT
without the government's initial funding (indeed even with
that funding, the fate of GNAT was in the balance a few
times when the project was severely attacked by some
existing Ada vendors). I think it is quite a reasonable
model for the government to provide initial funding of this
type, especially if the result is a freely available
product. I do NOT think it is healthy for the government to
continue to provide such funding.

The future of GNAT depends on our ability to improve the
product and compete directly with the other Ada 95 vendors.
This competition is an important factor in the continued
development and improvement of GNAT (not to mention the
continued development and improvement of other vendors
products!)

> I don't want to get into a protracted discussion
> on this since I have no special expertise in it
> and you are doubtless one of the top-ranking
> experts, but my gut instinct is that if something
> is 100% funded by tax dollars, it ought to be 100%
> in the control of the taxpayers or of their elected
> representatives, at least if the creator of the
> product has no intention to support and evolve it.
> I can see that an exception might be a flat-out
> grant where a priori there are no strings attached,
> such as for basic research.

I don't think that's right. If the government funds
something at a 100% level, they have a choice as to who
ends up with the data rights. Clearly they will have to
spend more if they want the data rights to be freely
available to the public. Whether this is a good idea (to
spend this additional money) depends on the project. The
ATIP projects funded a few years ago, quite deliberately
allowed the data rights to remain with the vendors, and
most of these products remain proprietary (but not all,
for example the GNAT version for the MAC was distributed
freely, and is still freely available)

> I'm reminded of ALS, a big fat waste of tax money if
> ever there was one (and how many of us had at least
> some peripheral involvement with THAT mess?)  If I
> remember correctly, the government retained control
> of the resulting software and made it available on
> mag tape for something like $25, more or less cost
> of materials and shipping/handling.

ALS cost the government a LOT of money, something of the
order of 15-20 times the cost of GNAT. Interestingly there
was much less hue and cry from the other vendors, I think
simply because ALS was seen as a technical failure, and was
never successful in the market place. Part of the reason
for some of the vendors strongly opposing the GNAT project
was their prediction (accurate we believe :-) that GNAT
would be of sufficient quality to seriously compete with
their products.

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Re: Win32Ada

[Andi Kleen]

In article <72mlq3$9nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
dewarr@my-dejanews.com writes:

> ALS cost the government a LOT of money, something of the
> order of 15-20 times the cost of GNAT. Interestingly there
> was much less hue and cry from the other vendors, I think
> simply because ALS was seen as a technical failure, and was
> never successful in the market place. Part of the reason
> for some of the vendors strongly opposing the GNAT project
> was their prediction (accurate we believe :-) that GNAT
> would be of sufficient quality to seriously compete with
> their products.

Sorry for a stupid question, but..

What exactly is ALS ? 


-Andi

Re: Win32Ada

[Al Christians]

Andi Kleen wrote:
> 
> Sorry for a stupid question, but..
> 
> What exactly is ALS ?
> 

In the spirit of all the replies to "...  ADA?"

Lou Gehrig's Disease or Advanced Logistics System.

Al

win32ada

[Aaron W. Myers]

Thanks for reading.

I'm trying to build the win32ada examples and I always get an error
that says something a lot the lines:

gcc -c connect.adb
connect.adb:8:06: file "win32.ads" not found
connect.adb:8:06: "Connect (body)" depends on "Connectpkg (spec)"
connect.adb:8:06: "Connectpkg (spec)" depends on "Win32 (spec)"
compilation abandoned

it's really frustrating!  I've tried installing win32ada several
times.  i'm using the one i suppose was made during the time of gnat
3.08 (i haven't been able to find a new one) and i'm using gnat 3.14. 
When i'm running that last command, gnatmake withall all goes well
until i get one of these pretty ones.

./win32-windowsx.o(.text+0xa009):win32-windowsx: undefined reference
to `SendMes
sageA@16'
./win32-windowsx.o(.text+0xa0aa):win32-windowsx: more undefined
references to `S
endMessageA@16' follow
gnatlink: cannot call C:\GNAT\bin\gcc.exe
gnatmake: *** link failed.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . so what do y'all think? should i try gwindows?

Sincerely,
Aaron W. Myers

Re: win32ada

[Jerry van Dijk]

awm917@truman.edu (Aaron W. Myers) writes:

> times.  i'm using the one i suppose was made during the time of gnat
> 3.08 (i haven't been able to find a new one) and i'm using gnat 3.14. 

That definitively is not going to work. Use the win32ada binding
that goes with the GNAT version you are using. It is in gnatwin-3.14p.exe.
You might consider upgrading to 3.15p.

> ./win32-windowsx.o(.text+0xa009):win32-windowsx: undefined reference
> to `SendMes
> sageA@16'
> ./win32-windowsx.o(.text+0xa0aa):win32-windowsx: more undefined
> references to `S
> endMessageA@16' follow
> gnatlink: cannot call C:\GNAT\bin\gcc.exe
> gnatmake: *** link failed.

GNAT cannot find the windows libraries.

> hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . so what do y'all think? should i try gwindows?

Yes, but not to solve this problem :-)

-- 
--  Jerry van Dijk   | email: jvandyk@attglobal.net
--  Leiden, Holland  | web:   users.ncrvnet.nl/gmvdijk

Re: win32ada

[Steve]

First make sure you have everything you need.
You can get gnat and the win32 support via anoymous ftp from:
  cs.nyu.edu
in the directory:
  /pub/gnat/3.15p/winnt

You'll need to install both:
  gnat-3.15p-nt.exe
and
  gnatwin-3.15p.exe

Things have always worked for me after going through this process.  If you
have done this much and things still aren't working, ask again.

Steve
(The Duck)


"Aaron W. Myers" <awm917@truman.edu> wrote in message
news:e2c0e503.0307162034.34a6abfc@posting.google.com...
> Thanks for reading.
>
> I'm trying to build the win32ada examples and I always get an error
> that says something a lot the lines:
>
> gcc -c connect.adb
> connect.adb:8:06: file "win32.ads" not found
> connect.adb:8:06: "Connect (body)" depends on "Connectpkg (spec)"
> connect.adb:8:06: "Connectpkg (spec)" depends on "Win32 (spec)"
> compilation abandoned
>
> it's really frustrating!  I've tried installing win32ada several
> times.  i'm using the one i suppose was made during the time of gnat
> 3.08 (i haven't been able to find a new one) and i'm using gnat 3.14.
> When i'm running that last command, gnatmake withall all goes well
> until i get one of these pretty ones.
>
> ./win32-windowsx.o(.text+0xa009):win32-windowsx: undefined reference
> to `SendMes
> sageA@16'
> ./win32-windowsx.o(.text+0xa0aa):win32-windowsx: more undefined
> references to `S
> endMessageA@16' follow
> gnatlink: cannot call C:\GNAT\bin\gcc.exe
> gnatmake: *** link failed.
> hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . so what do y'all think? should i try gwindows?
>
> Sincerely,
> Aaron W. Myers