From: "Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <vp.nousiainen@lapinlahden-teknologiakeskus.fi>
Subject: Re: Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel
Date: 2000/07/18
Date: 2000-07-18T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <vnZc5.210$2y3.8676@read2.inet.fi> (raw)
In-Reply-To: i4k95.7512$7%3.571616@news.flash.net
"Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote in message
news:i4k95.7512$7%3.571616@news.flash.net...
> "Bertrand Meyer" <Bertrand_Meyer/nospam@eiffel.com> wrote in message
> news:39654639.B3760EF2@eiffel.com...
> > I am afraid we are on different wavelengths. Why was it the task of
> > the Ariane 4 software developers to learn about Ariane 5? It's the
> > other way around! If I reuse something, I am responsible for finding
> > out what its contract is and whether it fits *my* needs.
>
> In practice, it's almost impossible for the prime contractor to do an
> analysis at this level of detail (source code) for all the elements in
this
> type of system. They simply don't have the resources or expertise.
> Therefore, it's more cost effective for the prime to write system-level
> specifications -- which in some cases can be implemented with or without
> software -- and let the vendor do the next level of analysis, including
> whether the software meets the system specification (with some oversight
by
> the prime). This "divide and conquer" approach is essential given the
> diversity of systems in a platform of this type.
>
> Consider a relatively simpler system: If you replace the control computer
in
> your automobile (especially if it has ABS), do you insist that your
mechanic
> analyze its source code first? I suspect that you (and he) probably treat
> the control module as a "black box," and that he only reads the system
> "specification" (data sheet) for that module.
What if I'm _designing_ a new control computer (Endaira v.4 -> v.5)
and a new software for it. Maybe I want the contracts from
the earlier HW/SW builders and some test material?
Here we go again: You think I would have used that old
test material right away, don't you?
VPN
> > Any large project has politics.
> > The fights of departments within companies can be as bad
> > as those of cooperating nations. In this case, I think what you
> > write reinforces the understanding that this was a technical
> > and managerial software problem -- a software engineering problem,
> > which would have been prevented by the proper software engineering
> > principles and practices, including Design by Contract.
>
> I don't believe politics was the primary cause of the Ariane 5 accident.
> However, I notice that many people assume that use of proper software
> engineering techniques will overcome political and psychological barriers.
> My personal experience is that if you don't have good human and
> organizational relationships on a project, any technical approach will be
> severely degraded. I suspect this is why the inquiry's recommendations
speak
> more to this issue than to design methodology choices. Of course, it takes
a
> lot more work to understand people vs. methodologies, so maybe it's not
> surprising that a lot of people take this view.
>
> I am glad to see, however, that you now acknowledge that there was a
> managerial dimension to the problem.
>
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2000-07-18 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <8ipvnj$inc$1@wanadoo.fr>
[not found] ` <8j67p8$afd$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
[not found] ` <slrn8leffq.ebq.gisle@spurv.ii.uib.no>
[not found] ` <395886DA.CCE008D2@deepthought.com.au>
[not found] ` <3958B07B.18A5BB8C@acm.com>
[not found] ` <y1d65.620$7%3.33446@news.flash.net>
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[not found] ` <0cS95.9944$7%3.667682@news.flash.net>
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Interresting thread in comp.lang.eiffel Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <3966D7B0.5D6475E4@earthlink.net>
[not found] ` <A5J95.9237$7%3.638838@news.flash.net>
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-23 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
2000-07-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-24 0:00 ` David Gillon
2000-07-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-24 0:00 ` swhalen
2000-07-24 0:00 ` David Gillon
[not found] ` <39688CA2.31B2A7EF@acm.com>
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic
[not found] ` <8jhq0m$30u5$1@toralf.uib.no>
[not found] ` <8jt4j7$19hpk$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
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[not found] ` <8k5alv$1oogm$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
[not found] ` <Rmt95.7825$7%3.595826@news.flash.net>
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-16 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-16 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <3963DEBF.79C40BF1@eiffel.com>
[not found] ` <2LS85.6100$7%3.493920@news.flash.net>
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2000-07-12 0:00 ` David K Allen
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Bob Allen
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Bob Allen
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic
2000-07-14 0:00 ` carr_tom
2000-07-18 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-12 0:00 ` David Gillon
2000-07-13 0:00 ` David Gillon
2000-07-13 0:00 ` David K Allen
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Bob Allen
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-18 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-18 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19 0:00 ` David Gillon
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-12 0:00 ` David K Allen
2000-07-12 0:00 ` David K Allen
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Howard W. LUDWIG
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-18 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Bob Allen
[not found] ` <Rnt95.78 <L6vb5.16117$7%3.988701@news.flash.net>
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Nick Williams
[not found] ` <396502D2.BD8A42E7@earthlink.net>
[not found] ` <RSsa5.11075$7%3.784507@news.flash.net>
[not found] ` <6aHa5.113$6E.23141@ptah.visi.com>
[not found] ` <396B4A68.458FA3BC@maths.unine.ch>
[not found] ` <u6hp4i16$GA.283@cpmsnbbsa07>
2000-07-11 0:00 ` cropt
2000-07-11 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Bob Allen
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-12 0:00 ` David Starner
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Peter Amey
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Peter Amey
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
[not found] ` <39654639.B3760EF2@eiffel.com>
[not found] ` <i4k95.7512$7%3.571616@news.flash.net>
[not found] ` <oqog45g1j0.fsf@premise.demon.co.uk>
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2000-07-11 0:00 ` Aspects (Re: Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel) tom
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Steve Merrick
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Frank Mitchell
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Jubilation
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Frank Mitchell
2000-07-15 0:00 ` Jubilation
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-12 0:00 ` tom
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Design by Contract (was " David Kristola
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Howard W. LUDWIG
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Greg
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Eirik Mangseth
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14 0:00 ` David Kristola
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Matthew J Heaney
2000-07-16 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-17 0:00 ` David Kristola
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-25 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Greg
2000-07-12 0:00 ` Matthew J Heaney
2000-07-13 0:00 ` Eirik Mangseth
2000-07-18 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen [this message]
2000-07-19 0:00 ` Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <i4k95.7512$7%3.571616@n <397D8CC3.BB0C9001@ix.netcom.com>
2000-07-29 0:00 ` Writing better software was: Design by Contract (was Re: Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel) Kent Paul Dolan
2000-07-29 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-31 0:00 ` Stefan Skoglund
2000-08-01 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-08-01 0:00 ` Kent Paul Dolan
2000-08-01 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-31 0:00 ` Simon Brady
2000-07-30 0:00 ` John Magness
2000-08-01 0:00 ` Simon Brady
2000-08-01 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-08-01 0:00 ` Simon Brady
2000-08-04 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
2000-08-04 0:00 ` Simon Brady
[not found] ` <39573CAB.BB90DF92@gecm.com>
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2000-07-13 0:00 ` Interresting thread in comp.lang.eiffel Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-16 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-16 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
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2000-07-18 0:00 ` Interesting " Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
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