Re: can one build commercial applications with latest gnat and other licenses related questions...

[M E Leypold <development-2006-8ecbb5cc8aREMOVETHIS@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de>]

"Marc A. Criley" <mcNOSPAM@mckae.com> writes:

> M E Leypold wrote:
> 
> >  - Above all: How expensive is an environment with "closed
> >    distribution capability" (CDC)?
> 
> Actually, once we in comp.lang.ada get off our fixation with GNAT, the 

Yes. :-)

> answer to the above is...not necessarily that much, especially for a 
> hobbyist trying to convert their hobby and advocacy into a small business 

> (so long as Windows is the target).

Well ... this is too restrictive a future to me.

> The problem is that because AdaCore distributed a free Ada compiler that 
> could be used to build close-sourced applications for awhile, and now their 

Not quite. I think the history of Gnat and the obligations involved is
a bit more complex than "because AdaCore distributed a free Ada
compiler".

> only free, maintained, distribution is for a GPLed compiler, we're all 
> stuck on this notion that we should have access to a free, maintained 
> compiler with which we can build closed-source applications.
> 
> Move on.

Right. That probably means to another language, that has all this, and
where I/we can pay our due with contributions to an evinronment, where
I don't have to watch my legal back all the time. Freedom is also
about this: That I'm reasonably sure that things stay as they are and
library licenses (GtkAda, i.e.) don't change over night and without
notice.

> If you can pay the $15K, or work with the GPL, then fine, otherwise look 
> elsewhere.

I hope you're not trying to shoe me away. :-). You know I've not been
arguing about Gnat now for a while, but about the unknown licence of
GtkAda and the danger of Florist going completely GPL if the community
relies on the maintencance supllied by AdaCore.

A compiler, that doesn't have operating system bindings (or which are
more restrictively licensed than the rest of the runtime) is worth
nothing in my opinion and they could just as well remove Ada from Gcc
tree again.


> I'm sure Randy Brukardt must have just given up in frustration after years 
> of pointing out that Janus Ada (www.rrsoftware.com) has long been available 
> and is priced competitively with other commercial programming environments.

I know his compilers. I appreciate his contributions to c.l.a. But the
compiler doesn't seem available for Linux or BSD. 

> According to the website: the Professional Edition, which appear to include 
> CLAW, is $495 ($300/yr maintenance), while the Personal Edition (no CLAW 
> and some other tools) is $195 ($95/yr maintenance), though you can get a 
> Personal Edition combo for $295 ($200/yr maintenance).

I know all that. Believe me, I researched the Ada compiler market over
more than a year ago very thoroughly.

Generally I'm not asking for advice here. Every discussion here seems
to gravitate pretty fast to sentences like "If you cannot afford, you
should or could...".

As I've been reiterating ad nauseam, I'm not intrested in AdaCore Gnat
anymore. But doesn't "the community" have any issues with the GtkAda
license changes? If so, there are remedies to that.


> Or if you want to go the Aonix route (www.aonix.com), the quote I got last 
> year from them was:
> 
> Windows: $1495 + $1495/yr maintenance
> Linux:   $5000 + $1000/yr maintenance

I got the same quote over a year ago.

> So if you're looking to go the small business route, look elsewhere than 
> AdaCore, and maybe help out another small business (RR) in the process.

You know, I understand that very well.

I'd have, but the RR product line looks a bit on the way out of the
market. Also, there are no bindings to a portable graphical tools kit
available.

What you're actually spelling out is the message: Ada is dead as a
universal language. It's a language for big players and specialists
only now. I've actually been prepared to hear that for some time now,
but it makes me sad anyway and I've been hoping for a community (of
non hobbyists) that is interested to keep a crossplatform enviroment
for Ada alive. I've always had a fondness for this kind of languages
(from Pascal, Modula, Ada, Oberon), but it probably makes of course no
sense "in business" to decide on a this kind of gut feeling.

I don't want rely on Language where there is only 1 affordable vendor
(even if the bindings I need where available). And I'd like to have
the option to go back on community supported tools

All that is available with C/C++/Ocaml/Java/whatever. So, if for a
moment we go away from "my case" (which I never thought exemplary
anyway), are there actually any open questions why Ada is not the
language of choice for all the small startups? 

This question, why there is so much (supposedly bug ridden and
unreliable software) is produced in other languages which do not have
the rigor of Ada, has turned up repeatedly here.  Here might be some
answer.

I've to admit, that I'm a bit tired of the discussion, since I'm
repeating myself. Just to recap my main points:

 - I'm not asking for advice. I know well what I'm doing :-). I'm
   asking for information.

   As I personal statement: Relying on commercially available compiler
   is in my eyes not an option (YMMV). Generally I'd prefer to change
   to another language as my primary system language. Which wouldn't
   preclude me from doing consulting and contract work in Ada, so
   what :-).

 - Some licensing questions are still open. Apart from the
   consequences certain license have or would have the first step
   should be to find out, what those licenses actually are.

 - I'm not interested in discussing what AdaCore or whoever has done
   or should have done. That's their business, but I'd certainly like
   to know what they are actually doing licensewise: This is in the
   dark presently as far as GtkAda and some other sources are
   concerned.

 - I wonder, how many people are here, that would be interested in
   trying to collect and maintain a community supported Ada
   environment.



Regards -- Markus