* Re: decimal separator (international? [not found] ` <d4a75c1f.0410211229.263f74c9@posting.google.com> @ 2004-10-22 10:20 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-22 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-22 10:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Chris Kaese <cdkaese@ntlworld.com> wrote: > I have tried to compile a summary of the various arguments pro comma > as decimal marker and pro point as decimal marker. Please feel free to > add to the list, as I may have left out something. This list is impressive, indeed. Well, of course, I am biased by the long_time use of Computers which culminated in the use of the programming language Ada. E.g. I like Ada's ability to accept different number bases in the source code fitting like a glove when it comes to easily write down binary, octal, hexadecimal numbers (literals) or even numbers with a base of 7 or 13 . ;-) I admit to be "pro point" for decimal marker and "pro underscore" for grouping due to habituation, although I am living in a "comma" country. I like it to write 2#11.1# for a decimal 3.5 when documentation requires for a specific binary purpose. -- --Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de --Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen --http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/ --Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-22 10:20 ` decimal separator (international? Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-22 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-22 16:20 ` Erik Naggum ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-10-22 13:18 UTC (permalink / raw) In comp.lang.ada Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: : Chris Kaese <cdkaese@ntlworld.com> wrote: :> I have tried to compile a summary of the various arguments pro comma :> as decimal marker and pro point as decimal marker. Please feel free to :> add to the list, as I may have left out something. : : This list is impressive, indeed. And it is not correct for Switzerland, I'd say. 123'456.89 Yes, '. Georg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-22 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-10-22 16:20 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-22 19:29 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2004-10-23 18:54 ` Chris Kaese 2004-10-29 9:52 ` Stefan L�rchner 2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-22 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw) * Georg Bauhaus @2004-10-22 13:18 > And it is not correct for Switzerland, I'd say. > 123'456.89 > > Yes, '. The superiority of this solution compared to the conflated uses of comma and period (or "full stop") should be obvious to anyone, regardless of which community they originally come from. So, if people have any sense, they will switch to this format and spread the word. Obviously, it does not matter whether you use comma or period for decimal point in this format, and we have one less glaring ambiguity to deal with. The English usage of ' and " for inches and feet, and usage of ' and " for minutes and seconds are sufficiently disambiguated from such numbers that I believe no normal reader would consider the possibility of a new ambiguity in these cases. I am not aware of other usage of ' that would naturally find its place /inside/ a string of digits; does anyone else? Erik Naggum @2004-296 -- Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder; act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder. In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none; in a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-22 16:20 ` Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-22 19:29 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2004-10-22 20:45 ` Erik Naggum 0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2004-10-22 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Erik Naggum wrote: > Georg Bauhaus wrote: > > And it is not correct for Switzerland, I'd say. > > 123'456.89 > > Yes, '. > The English usage of ' and " for inches and feet, and usage of > ' and " for minutes and seconds are sufficiently disambiguated from > such numbers that I believe no normal reader would consider the > possibility of a new ambiguity in these cases. I have seen both �degrees'minutes.decimals� and �degrees'minutes"seconds.decimals�, so I wouldn't bet on it. Jacob -- "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its waters." -- Frederick Douglas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-22 19:29 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2004-10-22 20:45 ` Erik Naggum 0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-22 20:45 UTC (permalink / raw) * Jacob Sparre Andersen @2004-10-22 19:29 > I have seen both �degrees'minutes.decimals� and > �degrees'minutes"seconds.decimals�, so I wouldn't bet on it. Both are clearly wrong, just like misspellings, so they must be ignored for purposes of finding counter-examples. It would help, though, if you could cite a source for these misguided abuses. Erik Naggum @2004-296 -- Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder; act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder. In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none; in a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-22 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-22 16:20 ` Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-23 18:54 ` Chris Kaese 2004-10-25 10:16 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-29 9:52 ` Stefan L�rchner 2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Chris Kaese @ 2004-10-23 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<clb1at$9mv$2@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>... >> And it is not correct for Switzerland, I'd say. > 123'456.89 I am not Swiss, but Swiss websites seem to use the comma as decimal separator; e.g. ebay.ch, websites of various banks, nestle.ch. Are you sure you can do, for example, online banking in Switzerland using a point as a decimal separator? I wouldn't have thought so. Swiss keyboards, after all, seem to have a comma on the number pad, not a point. Regards, Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-23 18:54 ` Chris Kaese @ 2004-10-25 10:16 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-10-25 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Chris Kaese wrote: > Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<clb1at$9mv$2@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>... > >>>And it is not correct for Switzerland, I'd say. >> >>123'456.89 > > > I am not Swiss, but Swiss websites seem to use the comma as decimal > separator; e.g. ebay.ch, websites of various banks, nestle.ch. In a project for a Swiss ensurance company we had been given quite specific instructions. They specified the above format. However, I have seen both formats used by the very same organisation. Not related to the project, some links: http://zefix.admin.ch/shabpdf/current/046-08032004-1.pdf http://www.estv.admin.ch/data/sd/d/verstat/ver97.pdf (The web pages also use comma, for example in percentages.) > Are you sure you can do, for example, online banking in Switzerland > using a point as a decimal separator? I wouldn't have thought so. > Swiss keyboards, after all, seem to have a comma on the number pad, > not a point. number pads of computer keyboards do not usually control the ideas of those responsible for the specification of the requirements for using . or , in separating decimals. :-) I think if there is a problem at all the solution is pretty obvious: Don't use anything for grouping that could legitimately be used for separating. Has anyone seen '_' (or ' ') seperating the fractional part from the integer part? ;-) Georg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-22 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-22 16:20 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-23 18:54 ` Chris Kaese @ 2004-10-29 9:52 ` Stefan L�rchner 2004-10-29 9:59 ` Adrien Plisson 2004-10-29 10:23 ` Julian Bradfield 2 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Stefan L�rchner @ 2004-10-29 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw) >: This list is impressive, indeed. > >And it is not correct for Switzerland, I'd say. >123'456.89 > >Yes, '. While there's no doubt to use a comma as decimal separator, in Germany we use a "topperiod" to separate large numbers in groups of three digits. Unfortunately there's no possibility to use this on a computer because nothing like this exists. So I use the ' "quotesingle" Chr39. I think a "topdot" looks very nice as used in handwriting. The space between the digits is not much bigger than without the dot, but you can easily recognize the number. There is no chance to mix this dot with a multiply sign, because the periodcentered � is only used in mathematics where you care about writing. In daily use, we use � something like a 45� cross or x. By the way: How on earth do anglosaxons (or is it only Americans?) call their numbers above one billion??? In German language we have a logic system: Million 1'000'000 Milliarde 1'000'000'000 Billion 1'000'000'000'000 Billiarde 1'000'000'000'000'000 Trillion, Trilliarde ... So do the anglosaxons lack the -arde? How do they call 1'000'000'000'000'000? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 9:52 ` Stefan L�rchner @ 2004-10-29 9:59 ` Adrien Plisson 2004-10-29 10:23 ` Julian Bradfield 1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Adrien Plisson @ 2004-10-29 9:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Stefan Lörchner wrote: > So do the anglosaxons lack the -arde? How do they call > 1'000'000'000'000'000? they call this zillions, as in: "zillions of codeline, zillions of bugs: should have used Ada" ;) -- rien ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 9:52 ` Stefan L�rchner 2004-10-29 9:59 ` Adrien Plisson @ 2004-10-29 10:23 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-29 11:22 ` Markus Kuhn 1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Julian Bradfield @ 2004-10-29 10:23 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1579 bytes --] In article <8h34o0dbc2h70ojvsst879nfkthko7suok@4ax.com>, Stefan L�rchner <me@privacy.net> wrote: >How on earth do anglosaxons (or is it only Americans?) call their >numbers above one billion??? Realistically, it is now Americans and Brits (not all of whom are Anglo-Saxons!). There are still a few people like me who refuse to give utterance to the American versions, but if I used the British billion, I would confuse almost all of my compatriots. Sometime in the 1970s, the Treasury announced it would start using American billions, because all the numbers it wanted to talk about were of that order. That infected the rest of society. Confusingly, the French used to use the American system (they invented it both). In the (former) British and current German system, an n-illion is 10^(6*n) and and n-illiard(e) is 10^(6*n+3). In the (former) French and current American system, an n-illion is 10^(3*(n+1)). To be fair, the -illiard words have always been problematic in English, because they have an unnatural pronunciation. They are pronounced /'mili'a:d/, with a long final a, and (according to me) more or less equal stress on the first and last syllables, but if they were real English words (like billiard(s)!), they'd be pronounced /'milj@d/. "Million" and "milliard" would then be too similar. For this reason, I always say "thousand million". But that gets pretty tedious, and it's tempting to give up and use the American system! But I shall be strong. Frank, 10^42 is a lot easier in both speech and writing than either "septillion" or "tredecillion". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 10:23 ` Julian Bradfield @ 2004-10-29 11:22 ` Markus Kuhn 2004-10-29 12:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Markus Kuhn @ 2004-10-29 11:22 UTC (permalink / raw) jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield) writes: |> I would confuse almost all of my compatriots. Sometime in the |> 1970s, the Treasury announced it would start using American billions, |> because all the numbers it wanted to talk about were of that |> order. That infected the rest of society. Confusingly, the French used |> to use the American system (they invented it both). Gigapounds and teradollars seem perfectly acceptable solutions today, especially since computing has introduced these SI prefixes into common vernacular. Markus -- Markus Kuhn, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ || CB3 0FD, Great Britain ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 11:22 ` Markus Kuhn @ 2004-10-29 12:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2004-10-29 13:43 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-29 12:58 ` decimal separator (international? Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 14:21 ` Gee Pee (was: decimal separator (international?) Christoph Paeper 2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2004-10-29 12:41 UTC (permalink / raw) On 29 Oct 2004 11:22:09 GMT, Markus Kuhn wrote: > jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk (Julian Bradfield) writes: >|> I would confuse almost all of my compatriots. Sometime in the >|> 1970s, the Treasury announced it would start using American billions, >|> because all the numbers it wanted to talk about were of that >|> order. That infected the rest of society. Confusingly, the French used >|> to use the American system (they invented it both). > > Gigapounds and teradollars seem perfectly acceptable solutions > today, especially since computing has introduced these SI prefixes > into common vernacular. In computing Giga = 2**30, while in SI it is 10**9. [Well, if you have that much, then 73 mio might be negligible... (:-))] -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 12:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2004-10-29 13:43 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-29 13:55 ` Julian Bradfield 0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-29 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) * Dmitry A. Kazakov @2004-10-29 12:41 > In computing Giga = 2**30 That is just plain false. Adjust your opinions accordingly. Erik Naggum @2004-303 -- Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder; act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder. In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none; in a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 13:43 ` Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-29 13:55 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-29 15:05 ` Erik Naggum 0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Julian Bradfield @ 2004-10-29 13:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no> writes: > * Dmitry A. Kazakov @2004-10-29 12:41 >> In computing Giga = 2**30 > > That is just plain false. Adjust your opinions accordingly. It's not plain false, it's just usually false. When quoting disk capacities, giga usually means giga; but when quoting memory capacities, including devices such as memory sticks, giga almost always means gibi. A cursory Google shows that a lot of people think it primarily means gibi in computing! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 13:55 ` Julian Bradfield @ 2004-10-29 15:05 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-29 15:29 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-30 12:15 ` Binary prefixes in Google's calculator Markus Kuhn 0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-29 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) * Julian Bradfield @2004-10-29 13:55 >>* Dmitry A. Kazakov @2004-10-29 12:41 >>> In computing Giga = 2**30 >> That is just plain false. Adjust your opinions accordingly. > It's not plain false, it's just usually false. Excuse me for being precise, but a statement that pretends to be true always but is actually only true some of the time, is entirely false: It is /not/ true that �in computing�, giga = 2^30. The simple fact that a lot of uses of �giga� in computing are 10^9, invalidates the statement and its broad claim. > A cursory Google shows that a lot of people think it primarily means > gibi in computing! When I want to know how mistaken how many people are, I also use Google. Erik Naggum @2004-303 -- Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder; act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder. In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none; in a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 15:05 ` Erik Naggum @ 2004-10-29 15:29 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-30 12:15 ` Binary prefixes in Google's calculator Markus Kuhn 1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Julian Bradfield @ 2004-10-29 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1267 bytes --] In article <mq2a52-b29.ln1@news.naggum.no>, Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no> wrote: >Excuse me for being precise, but a statement that pretends to be true >always but is actually only true some of the time, is entirely false: It Depends on your notion of truth. The statement "birds are flying creatures with two feathered wings" has a number of well-known exceptions, but is nonetheless true for useful meanings of "true". In any question of linguistic usage, taking a two-valued definition of truth is just pointless. Clearly "in computing, giga = 2^30" is not maximally true; but it's not plain false, if one takes plain false to mean the minimal truth value. (You weren't precise about what you meant by "plain", so I took the meaning that seemed most plausible.) >is /not/ true that �in computing�, giga = 2^30. The simple fact that a >lot of uses of �giga� in computing are 10^9, invalidates the statement >and its broad claim. Only if you think the broad claim was one of absolute maximal truth, which I don't. I might note that the specific counter example I gave is contentious: many people think that giga means (or should mean) gibi in disk capacities, and that manufacturers only use giga means giga in order to inflate their capacities. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Binary prefixes in Google's calculator 2004-10-29 15:05 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-29 15:29 ` Julian Bradfield @ 2004-10-30 12:15 ` Markus Kuhn 2004-10-30 14:23 ` Binary prefixes and decimal separators " Björn Persson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Markus Kuhn @ 2004-10-30 12:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no> writes: |> > A cursory Google shows that a lot of people think it primarily means |> > gibi in computing! |> |> When I want to know how mistaken how many people are, I also use Google. Type "1 gigabyte in bytes" and "1 gigabyte in gibibyte" into Google and see what its (fully gibi aware) calculator thinks ... :( Even worse, try "1 kilobit/second in bit/second". Markus -- Markus Kuhn, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ || CB3 0FD, Great Britain ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Binary prefixes and decimal separators in Google's calculator 2004-10-30 12:15 ` Binary prefixes in Google's calculator Markus Kuhn @ 2004-10-30 14:23 ` Björn Persson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Björn Persson @ 2004-10-30 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Markus Kuhn wrote: > Type "1 gigabyte in bytes" and "1 gigabyte in gibibyte" into Google > and see what its (fully gibi aware) calculator thinks ... :( > > Even worse, try "1 kilobit/second in bit/second". Horrible! That's not what I would call "fully gibi aware". Connecting back to the topic of decimal separators, try first "3,14159 radians in degrees" and then "3,142 radians in degrees". Conclusion: Google's calculator is nothing but a toy. -- Björn Persson PGP key A88682FD omb jor ers @sv ge. r o.b n.p son eri nu ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 11:22 ` Markus Kuhn 2004-10-29 12:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2004-10-29 12:58 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 14:41 ` Björn Persson 2004-10-29 14:21 ` Gee Pee (was: decimal separator (international?) Christoph Paeper 2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-29 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw) In comp.lang.ada Markus Kuhn <n04W44+mgk25@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > Gigapounds and teradollars seem perfectly acceptable solutions clever :-) :-) but: giga or gibi ? tera or tebi ? see explanation in http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/ftp/misc/magnitudes.html -- --Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de --Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen --http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/ --Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 12:58 ` decimal separator (international? Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-29 14:41 ` Björn Persson 2004-10-29 15:15 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-30 9:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Björn Persson @ 2004-10-29 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Hermann wrote: > In comp.lang.ada Markus Kuhn <n04W44+mgk25@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>Gigapounds and teradollars seem perfectly acceptable solutions > > clever :-) :-) > > but: > giga or gibi ? > tera or tebi ? I suppose you can talk about gibipounds and tebidollars if you like, but why? We need those prefixes for things that occur in powers of two for technical reasons, like memory cells. I see no reason to talk about money in powers of two. -- Björn Persson PGP key A88682FD omb jor ers @sv ge. r o.b n.p son eri nu ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 14:41 ` Björn Persson @ 2004-10-29 15:15 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 16:09 ` decimal separator (international? Andreas Prilop 2004-10-30 9:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2004-10-29 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 454 bytes --] "Bj�rn Persson" <spam-away@nowhere.nil> wrote in message news:REsgd.7419$d5.63018@newsb.telia.net... Peter Hermann wrote: > I suppose you can talk about gibipounds and tebidollars if you like, but > why? We need those prefixes for things that occur in powers of two for > technical reasons, like memory cells. I see no reason to talk about money > in powers of two. Actually, wouldn't life be simpler if everyone used 16 as their number base? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 15:15 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 16:31 ` Frank J. Lhota ` (2 more replies) 2004-10-29 16:09 ` decimal separator (international? Andreas Prilop 1 sibling, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-29 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw) In comp.lang.ada Frank J. Lhota <NOSPAM.Lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote: > "Bj?rn Persson" <spam-away@nowhere.nil> wrote in message > news:REsgd.7419$d5.63018@newsb.telia.net... > Peter Hermann wrote: > > I suppose you can talk about gibipounds and tebidollars if you like, but wrong: Peter Hermann (me) did not write this. I simply pointed to possible confusion. (and has been misunderstood ;-) > Actually, wouldn't life be simpler if everyone used 16 as their number base? I would like the octal system. If we only were Mickey Mice with 4 fingers/hand we had no conversion problems :-) -- --Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de --Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen --http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/ --Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-29 16:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-29 19:18 ` Larry Kilgallen 2004-11-01 10:14 ` Anders Wirzenius 2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2004-10-29 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw) "Peter Hermann" <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote in message news:cltood$kcl$1@news.BelWue.DE... > I would like the octal system. > If we only were Mickey Mice with 4 fingers/hand > we had no conversion problems :-) Or just imagine having 3 additional fingers on each hand. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 16:31 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2004-10-29 19:18 ` Larry Kilgallen 2004-11-01 10:14 ` Anders Wirzenius 2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2004-10-29 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <cltood$kcl$1@news.BelWue.DE>, Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> writes: > In comp.lang.ada Frank J. Lhota <NOSPAM.Lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote: >> "Bj?rn Persson" <spam-away@nowhere.nil> wrote in message >> news:REsgd.7419$d5.63018@newsb.telia.net... >> Peter Hermann wrote: >> > I suppose you can talk about gibipounds and tebidollars if you like, but > > wrong: Peter Hermann (me) did not write this. > I simply pointed to possible confusion. > (and has been misunderstood ;-) > >> Actually, wouldn't life be simpler if everyone used 16 as their number base? > > I would like the octal system. > If we only were Mickey Mice with 4 fingers/hand > we had no conversion problems :-) Polite children are raised not to count on their thumbs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 16:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-29 19:18 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2004-11-01 10:14 ` Anders Wirzenius 2004-11-01 18:53 ` Octal number system Andrew Nowicki 2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread From: Anders Wirzenius @ 2004-11-01 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> writes: > I would like the octal system. > If we only were Mickey Mice with 4 fingers/hand > we had no conversion problems :-) > I second that. The vegetable balance in my food shop has eight buttons per line. Would be easier to find the right button to press. Anders ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Octal number system 2004-11-01 10:14 ` Anders Wirzenius @ 2004-11-01 18:53 ` Andrew Nowicki 2004-11-01 21:47 ` Björn Persson 2004-11-02 1:04 ` Jeffrey Carter 0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Andrew Nowicki @ 2004-11-01 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Hermann wrote in thread "decimal separator (international?:" > I would like the octal system. > If we only were Mickey Mice with 4 fingers/hand > we had no conversion problems :-) Anders Wirzenius wrote in thread "decimal separator (international?:" > I second that. The vegetable balance in my food shop > has eight buttons per line. Would be easier to find > the right button to press. An international auxiliary language called Ygyde has two optional number systems: decimal and octal. Octal glyphs are shaped like binary numbers, so they are very easy to memorize. Another good thing about Ygyde's glyphs is a very big full stop. http://www.medianet.pl/~andrew/ygyde/ygyde.htm Duodecimal system (base 12) was used for some purposes by the Romans. Hexadecimal system (base 16) is used by some modern computer software. Octal system (base 8) was used by some old computers. Vigesimal system (base 20) was used by the Mayans. Sexagesimal system (base 60) was used by the Babylonians. To the best of my knowledge the best number systems are octal and duodecimal. Octal has simpler multiplication table than decimal (base 10) and its numbers are almost as short. Duodecimal has only one advantage: non-recurring point fractions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: Octal number system 2004-11-01 18:53 ` Octal number system Andrew Nowicki @ 2004-11-01 21:47 ` Björn Persson 2004-11-02 1:04 ` Jeffrey Carter 1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Björn Persson @ 2004-11-01 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Andrew Nowicki wrote: > To the best of my knowledge the best number systems > are octal and duodecimal. Octal has simpler multiplication > table than decimal (base 10) and its numbers are almost as short. I like hexadecimal better than octal, but that's only because two hexadecimal digits match one byte so nicely. -- Björn Persson PGP key A88682FD omb jor ers @sv ge. r o.b n.p son eri nu ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: Octal number system 2004-11-01 18:53 ` Octal number system Andrew Nowicki 2004-11-01 21:47 ` Björn Persson @ 2004-11-02 1:04 ` Jeffrey Carter 1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carter @ 2004-11-02 1:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Andrew Nowicki wrote: > Sexagesimal system (base 60) was used by the Babylonians. Base 60 is still widely used today. 60 sec/min, 60 min/hr, 60 min/deg, ... -- Jeff Carter "We'll make Rock Ridge think it's a chicken that got caught in a tractor's nuts!" Blazing Saddles 87 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 15:15 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-29 16:09 ` Andreas Prilop 1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Andreas Prilop @ 2004-10-29 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Frank J. Lhota wrote: > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 > > "Bj?rn Persson" <spam-away@nowhere.nil> wrote in message ^ > news:REsgd.7419$d5.63018@newsb.telia.net... This is a lie: There was no message <news:REsgd.7419$d5.63018@newsb.telia.net...> There only was a message <news:REsgd.7419$d5.63018@newsb.telia.net> > Actually, wouldn't life be simpler if everyone used 16 as their number base? Actually, wouldn't life be simpler if noone used programs from Microsoft? -- Top-posting. What's the most irritating thing on Usenet? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: decimal separator (international? 2004-10-29 14:41 ` Björn Persson 2004-10-29 15:15 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2004-10-30 9:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2004-10-30 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:41:53 GMT, Bj�rn Persson wrote: > Peter Hermann wrote: >> In comp.lang.ada Markus Kuhn <n04W44+mgk25@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>>Gigapounds and teradollars seem perfectly acceptable solutions >> >> clever :-) :-) >> >> but: >> giga or gibi ? >> tera or tebi ? > > I suppose you can talk about gibipounds and tebidollars if you like, but > why? We need those prefixes for things that occur in powers of two for > technical reasons, like memory cells. I see no reason to talk about > money in powers of two. The power used is arbitrary and can be voluntarily chosen as it happened in SI, but only for continuous values, such as physical measures. Once you leave the realm of real numbers and enter discrete mathematics (and computing), things change. Well, you can say that you do not want to write banking software (neither I), but in that case "damn much" will fit perfectly. Anyway dollar is not a SI unit. Yottadollar, attodollar sound silly. Maybe some day, after we'll stop using km/h, mph instead of m/s, Bar instead of hPa and year instead of Ms... -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Gee Pee (was: decimal separator (international?) 2004-10-29 11:22 ` Markus Kuhn 2004-10-29 12:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2004-10-29 12:58 ` decimal separator (international? Peter Hermann @ 2004-10-29 14:21 ` Christoph Paeper 2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread From: Christoph Paeper @ 2004-10-29 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Markus Kuhn <n04W44+mgk25@cl.cam.ac.uk>: > > Gigapounds and teradollars seem perfectly acceptable solutions By the way, I've watched the second episode of the new Battlestar Galactica series yesterday. Someone gave their food demand (per week and 5e4 people) in ton(ne)s, but water in "gee pees"---was that an invented unit or really Gigapounds (or my bad ears)? -- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "To summarize: It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: Anyone capable of getting themselves made President should by no means be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: People are a problem." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2004-11-02 1:04 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 31+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <dc7de4ff.0410171805.727ff73b@posting.google.com> [not found] ` <d4a75c1f.0410211229.263f74c9@posting.google.com> 2004-10-22 10:20 ` decimal separator (international? Peter Hermann 2004-10-22 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-22 16:20 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-22 19:29 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2004-10-22 20:45 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-23 18:54 ` Chris Kaese 2004-10-25 10:16 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-29 9:52 ` Stefan L�rchner 2004-10-29 9:59 ` Adrien Plisson 2004-10-29 10:23 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-29 11:22 ` Markus Kuhn 2004-10-29 12:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2004-10-29 13:43 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-29 13:55 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-29 15:05 ` Erik Naggum 2004-10-29 15:29 ` Julian Bradfield 2004-10-30 12:15 ` Binary prefixes in Google's calculator Markus Kuhn 2004-10-30 14:23 ` Binary prefixes and decimal separators " Björn Persson 2004-10-29 12:58 ` decimal separator (international? Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 14:41 ` Björn Persson 2004-10-29 15:15 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-29 15:48 ` Peter Hermann 2004-10-29 16:31 ` Frank J. Lhota 2004-10-29 19:18 ` Larry Kilgallen 2004-11-01 10:14 ` Anders Wirzenius 2004-11-01 18:53 ` Octal number system Andrew Nowicki 2004-11-01 21:47 ` Björn Persson 2004-11-02 1:04 ` Jeffrey Carter 2004-10-29 16:09 ` decimal separator (international? Andreas Prilop 2004-10-30 9:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2004-10-29 14:21 ` Gee Pee (was: decimal separator (international?) Christoph Paeper
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