From: "Robert I. Eachus" <rieachus@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Certified C compilers for safety-critical embedded systems
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:34:33 -0500
Date: 2004-01-10T13:34:33-05:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <usqdnaoOZrgn2J3dRVn-hA@comcast.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <m3zncx4scd.fsf@niflheim.malonet>
Mark Lorenzen wrote:
> Indeed. I am a big proponent of formal methods and mathematical
> proofs. But using these tools makes it even more important to get the
> requirements correct, sound and complete.
And that was exactly the problem in the Airbus 320 case. The grumblings
of the software designers about the opacity of the formal language used
were ignored as "the difficulty of learning a new methodology." The
real problem was the lack of a formal method for converting the formal
version of the requirements back into something that could be understood
by the domain experts.
In government contracting we run into this problem all the time. The
contractor wants the "B"-specs, the mapping of the original
specifications to the intended implementation, to be considered to
replace the "A"-spec once the B-specs are accepted by the government.
The government wants the testing done to the A-spec, not the B-spec.
The usual resolution is to delay government acceptance of the B-spec
until the test plan is available to bounce off the original A-spec.
Once that requirements tracability is complete, then the government
allows the B-spec to be signed off as the specification to be
implemented by the contractor. But the government does not accept the
B-spec requirements until they are sure that the test plan will result
in coverage of the A-spec requirements. I can't count the number of
times that the MITRE project team I was on was tasked by the government
to check that changes to the test plan still covered all the original
(A-spec) requirements. Often this was less than a day's work since the
requirements mapping was still valid. In other cases, approval dragged
on for months since requirements changes had to be mapped back to the
A-spec level.
What happened in the Ariane 501 case can be easily explained by
referring to this model. The original test plan covered the "real"
A-spec. But the full-up navigation system test called for in the test
plan was later eliminated due to cost and schedule problems involving
the test rig. But no one "looked back" to see which A-spec requirements
were to be tested by the eliminated test. Of course, doing such an
evaluation of the test plan change should have discovered the mismatch
between the Ariane 4 derived requirements and the Ariane 5 system
requirements. (The change to the test plan substituted system testing
for the upgraded INS for the Ariane 4 for the planned Ariane 5 guidance
system test.)
This is what I like about the FFRDC (federally funded research and
development corporation) model the US government uses. Technically, the
FFRDC does not work for the particular government agency that contracts
for the development of whatever new system. (Often the DoD, but also
NASA, intelligence organizations, the DOE, and the FAA among others.)
The FFRDC is charged by Congress with oversight of the project for
technical and financial feasibility. But in real day-to-day operations,
this usually means keeping their eyes focused on the original goal.
If a project like the SSC (super-conducting supercollider) or the A-12
(Navy stealth attack aircraft) goes out of control and is canceled by
Congress there is egg on the face of the FFRDC involved. (Fortunately
not MITRE in those two cases.)
On the other hand, the FFRDC can go "around" the contracting agency
directly to Congress when it first becomes clear that the risk
associated with a project is too great. I've been involved in several of
those calls. Or the FFRDC can recommend spending and "extra" hundred
million dollars or three now to ensure that the project doesn't flop
later. Again I have been involved in a few of those calls. And once I
even told the government (in this case the Air Force) that the risk was
not that the contractor couldn't meet the current requirements, but that
they would, and the government would be left buying an unusable system
because the governments actual requirements had changed.
That is the other side of the "cost overrun" story. Had the governments
real requirements changed? Yes. Could the government have held the
contractors feet to the fire and force them to meet the original
requirements for the original price? Yes. But the government was
better off negotiating a change order, knowing that the contractor would
"recover" their previous cost overruns when pricing the change, than
spending hundreds of millions for a now-useless system, and then putting
the changes needed to fix it out for bid.
In case you are wondering what changes caused the problem, it was
Goldwater-Nichols. This bill changed the way the military responded to
crises by decentralizing the responsibility to several commands.
Currently the most well known is the Central Command, which was
responsible for running the Gulf War, and invasions of Afghanistan and
Iraq. What was the problem? The data presented to various commands and
to the Pentagon in the original system could be different, since data
would arrive at different locations via different routes. But you
didn't want say Central Command seeing a major threat, and the Pentagon
(and the President) seeing different data. We also didn't want to force
all data to go through the national command authority so it was consistent.
The changes meant that the individual commands needed to know whether
they were seeing the "full" picture, or damage to the network resulted
in different commands having access to different data (or the same data
at significantly different times). In other words all the theater
commands needed to see the network status, not just the one location
responsible for maintaining the network. It sounds like a minor change,
but it wasn't. The network of course was fault-tolerant, and
maintenance, of course, needed to know which if any links had failed.
The problem had two parts. First the commands needed to be able to
compute the network connectivity, including for links which did not
directly affect them. This affected network topology and message routing
for status messages. Second, the commands needed to be able to do data
fusion, and get the SAME results as everyone else, independent of
network timing delays. This required new data fusion algorithms, where
the results were independent of the order the data was received.
--
Robert I. Eachus
"The war on terror is a different kind of war, waged capture by capture,
cell by cell, and victory by victory. Our security is assured by our
perseverance and by our sure belief in the success of liberty." --
George W. Bush
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2004-01-10 18:34 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 465+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <3fe00b82.90228601@News.CIS.DFN.DE>
[not found] ` <3FE026A8.3CD6A3A@yahoo.com>
[not found] ` <x0%Db.16$_l6.25998@news.uswest.net>
[not found] ` <3bf1uvg2ntadvahfud2rg6ujk24sora6gr@4ax.com>
[not found] ` <2u3auvogde8ktotlaq0ldiaska3g416gus@4ax.com>
[not found] ` <bs62ph$giu$1@newshost.mot.com>
[not found] ` <20619edc.0312221020.3fd1b4ee@posting.google.com>
[not found] ` <b5feuv06s2nmpakq0o1b7v0kpd450v3eli@4ax.com>
2003-12-23 5:06 ` Certified C compilers for safety-critical embedded systems Mike Silva
2003-12-23 15:44 ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-23 19:32 ` Mike Silva
2003-12-28 8:34 ` Peter Amey
2003-12-28 15:05 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-23 20:33 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-23 21:46 ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-23 22:11 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-24 16:46 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-24 18:22 ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-24 20:35 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-24 20:56 ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-24 20:14 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-24 20:41 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-24 22:19 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-26 10:44 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-26 21:49 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-26 22:10 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-26 23:20 ` Robert A Duff
2003-12-27 5:29 ` James Rogers
2003-12-27 6:24 ` Jeff C,
2003-12-27 7:50 ` James Rogers
2003-12-28 1:00 ` CBFalconer
2003-12-28 23:06 ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 15:27 ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 16:47 ` Simon Wright
2003-12-27 17:08 ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 21:32 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-28 22:59 ` Ian Bell
2003-12-29 2:43 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29 7:43 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-29 16:16 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-27 16:49 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-27 17:10 ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 19:54 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-27 20:57 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-27 17:34 ` Jeff C,
2003-12-27 15:34 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-12-29 17:46 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-29 21:13 ` Alex Colvin
2003-12-29 21:50 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 16:15 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 1:53 ` James Rogers
2003-12-29 9:08 ` Peter Hermann
2003-12-26 23:47 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-26 16:52 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-26 18:42 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-26 23:00 ` Robert A Duff
2003-12-27 13:26 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-28 16:33 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-29 17:46 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-30 10:18 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 14:48 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-30 17:08 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 17:44 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 18:28 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-12-30 22:26 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-12-30 21:15 ` CBFalconer
2003-12-30 21:30 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-31 10:41 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-06 19:54 ` Martin Dowie
2003-12-30 17:59 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-30 18:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-12-30 20:07 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 18:31 ` CBFalconer
2003-12-30 19:20 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-30 21:15 ` CBFalconer
2003-12-31 0:03 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-31 14:27 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-05 22:08 ` Dave Hansen
2004-01-05 22:36 ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-06 13:54 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-06 14:14 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-01-06 23:14 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-06 23:59 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-07 0:51 ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-07 12:24 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-07 12:56 ` Marin David Condic
2004-01-07 13:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-07 14:21 ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-07 23:35 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-08 3:32 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-08 8:35 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-09 3:47 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-09 3:59 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-09 22:00 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-10 22:48 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 16:46 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-08 17:50 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-09 4:31 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-09 22:10 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-10 3:44 ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2004-01-08 14:32 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-08 16:28 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 13:35 ` In-Out Parameters for functions (was: " Marin David Condic
2004-01-09 22:30 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 23:38 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-23 14:01 ` In-Out Parameters for functions Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-23 19:05 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-24 15:21 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-24 20:42 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-24 21:57 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-25 21:02 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-26 10:17 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-26 20:19 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-27 9:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-26 14:06 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-26 19:00 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-27 10:24 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-26 20:38 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-27 10:45 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-26 23:12 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-26 23:24 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-26 23:37 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-27 2:26 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-27 8:18 ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-27 17:37 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-27 19:05 ` David Starner
2004-01-27 19:31 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-27 20:06 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-28 9:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-28 15:20 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-29 9:08 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-29 15:37 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-29 18:43 ` David Starner
2004-01-29 19:46 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-29 20:23 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-29 21:36 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 17:39 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-30 18:14 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 19:32 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-30 20:51 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 23:25 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-31 0:07 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-29 23:52 ` David Starner
2004-01-30 3:02 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-30 16:09 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 16:31 ` Peter Amey
2004-01-30 19:20 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-02 10:39 ` Peter Amey
2004-01-31 1:03 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-30 9:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-30 17:06 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 17:52 ` David Starner
2004-01-30 20:28 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 21:31 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-01 4:10 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-01 21:05 ` David Starner
2004-02-01 21:55 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-02 2:20 ` David Starner
2004-02-02 14:36 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-31 5:27 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-01 4:02 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03 1:54 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-03 3:07 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-01 2:14 ` cl1motorsports
2004-02-02 9:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-02 14:33 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-02 15:41 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-02 17:01 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-03 14:06 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03 15:32 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-03 16:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03 23:04 ` David Starner
2004-02-03 23:38 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 1:54 ` David Starner
2004-02-04 14:54 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 3:56 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-05 13:32 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 7:00 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 14:57 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 15:19 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 15:52 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 16:36 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 17:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 19:58 ` David Starner
2004-02-04 10:28 ` Stuart Palin
2004-02-04 15:07 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 15:19 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 15:54 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 16:36 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 17:13 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-05 12:11 ` Stuart Palin
2004-02-05 13:22 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-05 14:53 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-05 15:43 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-06 7:41 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-24 1:27 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-06 10:27 ` Stuart Palin
2004-02-24 1:55 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-24 2:16 ` David Starner
2004-02-24 14:51 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-24 23:55 ` David Starner
2004-02-25 0:44 ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-25 9:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-27 4:58 ` left-to-right (was In-Out Parameters for functions) Stephen Leake
2004-02-27 9:43 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-27 14:07 ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-27 15:18 ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-27 17:06 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27 17:11 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-28 13:22 ` Stephen Leake
2004-03-01 11:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-27 18:29 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-03-01 11:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-28 0:12 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-28 16:58 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-29 13:44 ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-25 9:33 ` In-Out Parameters for functions David Starner
2004-02-25 14:21 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 14:34 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 15:02 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 15:43 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 15:53 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 16:05 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 16:44 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 20:45 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-25 21:33 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 8:45 ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-26 8:46 ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-26 14:41 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 9:44 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 13:24 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 14:33 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-02-28 17:11 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 15:21 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27 5:21 ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-27 8:55 ` David Starner
2004-02-26 9:44 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 15:24 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 17:33 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 16:34 ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-25 16:45 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 18:37 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-02-26 13:29 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-27 5:24 ` left-to-right (was In-Out Parameters for functions) Stephen Leake
2004-02-25 16:35 ` In-Out Parameters for functions Preben Randhol
2004-02-25 16:56 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 17:11 ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-25 17:33 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 15:44 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 16:10 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-25 16:50 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 13:41 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 15:44 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-28 17:34 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-29 3:51 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-29 14:10 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-29 15:37 ` Jon S. Anthony
2004-03-01 17:38 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02 3:05 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-02 7:08 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02 8:48 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-03-02 15:24 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02 15:42 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-03-02 16:33 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02 22:06 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-02 22:43 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-03-02 17:12 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-02 17:28 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-03-02 22:09 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-04 0:08 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-02-27 5:36 ` left-to-right (was In-Out Parameters for functions) Stephen Leake
2004-02-27 17:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27 5:31 ` In-Out Parameters for functions Stephen Leake
2004-02-25 12:01 ` Marin David Condic
2004-02-25 20:41 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-25 22:05 ` Jim Rogers
2004-02-25 22:19 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 9:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-26 9:44 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 15:48 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 17:49 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 18:12 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27 0:55 ` David Starner
2004-02-27 23:37 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-26 12:42 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-02-26 12:47 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2004-02-26 15:56 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 13:50 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 16:00 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-28 17:48 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-27 6:00 ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-28 18:18 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-24 8:22 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-02-24 9:31 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-02-04 3:01 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-04 3:26 ` Ludovic Brenta
2004-02-04 9:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-27 9:36 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-27 12:45 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-27 1:12 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-27 9:23 ` Peter Amey
2004-01-27 17:24 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-28 10:30 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-28 20:39 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-28 23:13 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-01-29 9:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-29 23:30 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-01-30 0:23 ` In-Out Parameters for functions + object notation Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-30 14:03 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-30 23:39 ` In-Out Parameters for functions Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-02 9:38 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-29 12:22 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-29 20:25 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-29 11:08 ` Peter Amey
[not found] ` <dSgYj40LxF@VB1162.spb.edu>
2004-01-27 7:34 ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-23 6:57 ` In-Out Parameters for functions (was: Re: Certified C compilers for safety-critical embedded systems Dave Thompson
2004-01-09 16:36 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-09 22:55 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 3:49 ` Kenneth Almquist
2004-01-19 21:57 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-06 12:45 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-06 17:23 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-06 18:33 ` Kelly Hall
2004-01-06 20:45 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-07 1:48 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-07 14:52 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 10:18 ` Scott Moore
2004-01-08 14:52 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 18:24 ` Dave Hansen
2004-01-09 7:50 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-01-09 14:52 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-10 0:46 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-11 2:49 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-10 12:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-10 13:03 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-10 15:14 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-10 17:49 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-11 2:29 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-11 12:50 ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-11 15:15 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-11 2:38 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-06 18:40 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-01-06 20:34 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-06 22:18 ` tmoran
2004-01-06 20:43 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-07 21:23 ` Martin Dowie
2004-01-06 13:33 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-08 10:13 ` Scott Moore
2004-01-08 14:53 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 15:51 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-09 16:57 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-09 17:54 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-09 20:16 ` CBFalconer
2004-01-09 20:48 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-09 22:49 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 23:58 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-01-10 6:16 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-10 13:42 ` Marin David Condic
2004-01-09 5:13 ` Mark Lorenzen
2004-01-10 18:34 ` Robert I. Eachus [this message]
2004-01-11 2:43 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-11 3:12 ` tmoran
2004-01-11 7:09 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11 10:53 ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2004-01-09 10:11 ` Mark Lorenzen
2004-01-11 14:40 ` Marin David Condic
2004-01-11 15:16 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-01-12 0:59 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-12 12:51 ` Peter Amey
2004-01-11 3:26 ` Hans-Bernhard Broeker
2004-01-11 5:43 ` John R. Strohm
2004-01-11 6:53 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11 13:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-11 17:18 ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-01-11 18:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11 18:38 ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-01-12 1:02 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-12 2:13 ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-01-12 4:36 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-12 15:48 ` Mel Wilson
2004-01-12 16:29 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-14 6:50 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-13 13:28 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-13 22:18 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-14 5:00 ` David Starner
2004-01-14 7:07 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-14 8:36 ` David Starner
2004-01-14 9:20 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-14 8:01 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-14 12:48 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-14 13:47 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-15 1:12 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-17 3:58 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-17 20:50 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-14 16:44 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-14 22:08 ` David Starner
2004-01-17 4:13 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-14 22:52 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-16 5:45 ` Pat Rogers
2004-01-17 5:19 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-17 15:56 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-17 16:09 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-17 21:07 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-18 0:20 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-19 22:02 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-14 15:12 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-14 16:32 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-15 1:28 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-16 8:07 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-17 2:07 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-17 5:29 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-21 8:07 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-21 23:23 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-15 5:22 ` Jeff C,
[not found] ` <btsrnj$gld$2@a1-hrz.uni-duis <2GsAAls/KX7Z089yn@the-wire.com>
2004-01-16 20:36 ` Albert van der Horst
2004-01-11 17:44 ` Everett M. Greene
[not found] ` <btqo11$8uo@libra <20040111.79C2A20.8BC3@mojaveg.iwvisp.com>
2004-01-11 19:14 ` CBFalconer
[not found] ` <3ff9df16.3024 <1073487133.232393@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>
2004-01-16 20:13 ` Albert van der Horst
2004-01-18 3:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 21:35 ` Ed Falis
2003-12-31 0:11 ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-31 11:02 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-31 13:38 ` Ed Falis
2003-12-31 15:22 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-31 22:46 ` Robert A Duff
2003-12-31 23:13 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-02 2:24 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-02 4:06 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-02 20:47 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-01-03 1:47 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-02 11:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-12-31 16:52 ` Alex Colvin
2003-12-29 17:56 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 1:17 ` Morris Dovey
2003-12-30 10:01 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-29 18:40 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-12-30 10:04 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-27 5:18 ` Richard Henry
2003-12-30 21:41 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-30 22:17 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 21:45 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-25 2:33 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-26 11:15 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-26 15:49 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-30 18:01 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-27 1:58 ` Stephen Leake
2003-12-27 20:17 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-28 3:01 ` Stephen Leake
2003-12-24 22:59 ` Mike Silva
2003-12-26 14:58 ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-27 21:33 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-28 2:34 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-12-28 6:08 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29 4:14 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-12-29 16:41 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-24 23:11 ` Mike Silva
2003-12-26 11:21 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-27 0:42 ` David Emery
2003-12-27 16:15 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-27 19:10 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-27 21:17 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-28 6:14 ` Mike Silva
2003-12-28 10:15 ` Peter Amey
2003-12-28 15:46 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-28 22:59 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-29 1:29 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29 4:34 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-29 16:56 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29 18:56 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-29 11:39 ` Peter Amey
2003-12-28 15:51 ` CBFalconer
2003-12-28 16:00 ` Ed Falis
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