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From: "Jeff Stimson" <jstimson@home.com>
Subject: Re: Ada vs. C++ in defense projects
Date: 2000/11/04
Date: 2000-11-04T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <upXM5.31928$78.9599314@news3.rdc1.on.home.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 3A02DB88.8A4232D1@lmco.com

Most of my career has been based on writing applications in Ada.  That has
changed recently since absolutley no one
wants anything other than C++ right now.  I've just ramped up in C++ and am
doing projects with it.  I am not new to C since
I have also used that for a number of years.

My God.
Is everyone blind to the inherent dangers in programming with C++ ?  My last
project in Ada (about 20K SLOC) was delivered to the
customer about 8 months ago with no defects.  That's zero, zip, 0, nadda.
We have heard nothing back from them in terms of
problems or bugs.  I know for a fact that the current project (approx same
size) in C++ will not turn out the same.

I really despair at the dissapearance of Ada, and it is going away.  We can
fight and scream all we want but it is not being taught
in colleges or universities, it is not being promoted by companies that have
influence, and it still has a stigma with being 'that military
language'.

Sigh.


"Michael P. Card" <michael.p.card@lmco.com> wrote in message
news:3A02DB88.8A4232D1@lmco.com...
> Mike-
>
> I am on a project now which is mixed Ada and C++. I find it frightening
> that many defense contractors are pushing C++ for critical defense systems
> like the one I am working on now, though thankfully I am on a team which
is
> working the Ada part. C++ is, IMO, an extremely poor choice for defense
> systems for many reasons, not the least of which include portability,
> readability, maintainability, and memory corruption due to invalid type
> casts and over-writing array bounds. As far as I am concerned, there is no
> financial or technical justification for using C++ on these kinds of
> projects.
>
> IMO, the only reason it is chosen by mgmt and some engineers is that most
> of us remember the big defense downturn of the late 80's and early 90's.
If
> you want to go work for Microsoft or a dot com, or if you want your resume
> ready just in case, it is a lot better to be able to say "I managed a team
> of 50 C++ programmers and we developed a 40 KSLOC distributed real-time
C++
> application" or "As a S/W engineer at company X, I wrote 10 KSLOC of C++
on
> my last project." Because of this "resume factor," engineers and managers
> in the defense industry are willing (albeit often unintentional)
> collaborators on the move to C++.
>
> When you couple this with amazing trends like the preference for Windows
NT
> as the information infrastructure for the CVN-77 (new Navy carrier), you
> can begin to believe that it would be in America's best interest for the
> government to pay M$ to re-write Windows, Office, Access, Project and SQL
> Server in Ada. The way I see it, M$ would like it since they could improve
> their products at taxpayer expense, consumers would get more reliable
> software, and the DoD would get a better infrastructure for the CVN-77 and
> future projects! (tongue-in-cheek here)
>
> - Mike
>
> mjsilva@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <39FE461D.275F1363@ix.netcom.com>,
> >   Lao Xiao Hai <laoxhai@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Indeed!!!!!!??????   Most organizations that I see choosing
> > > C++ over Ada have done very little in the way of careful
> > > study.   Certainly no U.S. military organization has thought
> > > this through very carefully.   It is, in fact, quite scary.  An
> > > organization that could not manage a  single-language
> > > policy is under the illusion that it can manage a multiple-
> > > language policy.
> >
> > I'm still interested in hearing if any of those who have switched from
> > Ada to The Radiant Future of language X are finding that there's
> > trouble in paradise X.  It seems that if there is trouble in paradise X
> > then we Ada advocates should be sure and document it for the benefit of
> > others who are considering such a switch, or who are simply evaluating
> > languages.  OTOH, if everybody is happy as a clam using X then I guess
> > we need to rethink some of our assumptions.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>






  reply	other threads:[~2000-11-04  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 63+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2000-10-30 16:04 Is the Ada World Embarrassed by the Defense Industry? Ken Garlington
2000-10-30 18:03 ` Tucker Taft
2000-10-30 18:25   ` Robert A Duff
2000-10-30 20:41   ` Ken Garlington
2000-10-30 18:30 ` Ted Dennison
2000-10-30 21:36 ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-10-30 22:01   ` James Rogers
2000-11-01 14:38     ` John Kern
2000-11-01 16:16       ` Pat Rogers
2000-10-30 22:17   ` Pat Rogers
2000-10-31  4:10   ` Lao Xiao Hai
2000-10-31 14:52     ` Ted Dennison
2000-10-31 16:50     ` mjsilva
2000-10-31 17:06       ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-10-31 17:39         ` mjsilva
2000-11-01  2:39         ` Jeff Carter
2000-11-01  3:19           ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-01 19:27             ` Tucker Taft
2000-11-01 20:04               ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-02  0:37                 ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-02  0:42                   ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-02  3:16                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-02  3:48                   ` Jeff Carter
2000-11-02 12:38                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-02 13:33                       ` Gautier
2000-11-03  5:30                         ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-02  0:42               ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-03  0:00       ` Ada vs. C++ in defense projects Michael P. Card
2000-11-04  0:00         ` Jeff Stimson [this message]
2000-11-04  0:00           ` Robert Love
2000-11-04  0:00           ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-05  0:57             ` Jeff Carter
2000-10-31  8:06   ` Is the Ada World Embarrassed by the Defense Industry? Pascal Obry
2000-10-31 14:53     ` Jean St-Pierre
2000-10-31 15:17       ` Larry Kilgallen
2000-10-31 21:10         ` Jean St-Pierre
2000-10-31 21:17     ` Wes Groleau
2000-10-31 21:13   ` Wes Groleau
2000-11-03  0:00   ` mark_lundquist
2000-11-04  3:08     ` DuckE
2000-11-04  0:00       ` Frode Tennebø
2000-11-07  0:17         ` mark
2000-11-03  0:00   ` mark_lundquist
2000-11-03  0:00     ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-03  0:00       ` mark_lundquist
2000-11-03  0:00         ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-03  0:00           ` Larry Kilgallen
2000-11-18  0:00         ` John Magness
2000-11-18  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
2000-11-19  0:00           ` Ted Dennison
2000-11-03  0:00       ` Ted Dennison
2000-11-06  0:00       ` Gautier
2000-11-06  0:00       ` Laurent Guerby
2000-11-06  0:00         ` Ted Dennison
2000-11-04  0:00     ` Lao Xiao Hai
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2000-11-03  0:00 Ada vs. C++ in defense projects michael_p_card
2000-11-04  0:00 ` Tom Hargraves
2000-11-05  2:31   ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-04  0:00     ` Pat Rogers
2000-11-05  4:35     ` Robert Dewar
2000-11-05  5:42       ` E. Robert Tisdale
2000-11-05  0:00         ` David C. Hoos, Sr.
2000-11-06  0:00       ` John Griffiths
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