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From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <>
Subject: Re: Map iteration and modification
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 11:04:58 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <un3bg9$35mhv$> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <un2jeb$330jr$>

On 2024-01-03 04:15, Randy Brukardt wrote:
> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <> wrote in message
> news:umotm2$18lqm$
> ...
>>> Only as far as there is an order implied by the order that things are
>>> returned. That order doesn't have any meaning, and certainly there isn't
>>> any
>>> such thing as "forward" or "reverse" to it. (Which was the original
>>> claim,
>>> after all.) There is no "natural" order to the key/element pairs; they
>>> are
>>> effectively unordered.
>> Iteration = order. It is the same thing. If you provide iteration of pairs
>> in the mapping by doing so you provide an order of.
> Certainly not. An iteration presents all of the elements in a container, but
> there is no requirement that there is an order.

The meaning of the word "iterate" is doing something (e.g. visiting an 
element) again. That *is* an order.

> Indeed, logically, all of
> the elements are presented at the same time (and parallel iteration provides
> an approximation of that).

Parallel iteration changes nothing because involved tasks are enumerated 
and thus ordered as well.

> If you try to enforce an order on things that don't require it, you end up
> preventing useful parallelism (practically, at least, no one has succeeded
> at providing useful parallelism to sequential code and people have been
> trying for about 50 years -- they were trying when I was a university
> student in the late 1970s).

Ordering things does not prevent parallelism. But storing cursors for 
later is a mother of all Sequentialisms! (:-))

Whether a container elements can be effectively deleted in parallel is 
an interesting but rather unpractical one. Nobody, literally nobody, 
cares because any implementation would be many times slower than the 
worst sequential one! (:-))

>>>> It always does sense *IF* enumeration (needed for iteration) is
>>>> provided.
>>>> Enumeration of pairs (<key>, <value>) is not same as ordering values by
>>>> the keys.
>>> True, but it doesn't imply any particular ordering. Certainly, no concept
>>> of
>>> "forward" or "reverse" applies to such an ordering (nor any stability
>>> requirement).
>> It does. You have a strict total order of pairs which guarantees existence
>> of previous and next pairs according to.
> Again, this is unrelated. Iteration can usefully occur in unordered
> containers (that is, "foreach").

"An enumeration is a complete, ordered listing of all the items in a 
    -- Wikipedia

If "foreach" exposes an arbitrary ordering rather than some meaningful 
(natural) one, that speaks for "insanity" but changes nothing.

> Ordering is a separate concept, not always
> needed (certainly not in basic structures like maps, sets, and bags).

Right. But no ordering means no iteration, no foreach etc. If I can 
iterate, that I can create an ordered set of (counter, element) pairs. Done.

>> Yes position is a property of enumeration.
> Surely not. This is a basis for my disagrement with you here.

Then you are disagreeing with core mathematics... (:-))

> The only
> requirement for enumeration is that all elements are produced.

Produced in an order. Elements only produced" is merely an opaque set. 
Enumeration of that set is ordering its elements.

> The order is
> an artifact of doing it an inherently parallel operation sequentally.

Yes, ordering is an ability to enumerate elements of a set. It is not an 
artifact it is the sole semantics of.


>>> You have some problem with an iterator
>>> interface as opposed to an array interface??
>> Yes, I am against pointers (referential semantics) in general.
> This is nonsense - virtually everything is referential semantics (other than
> components). Array indexes are just a poor mans pointer (indeed, I learned
> how to program in Fortran 66 initially, and way one built useful data
> structures was to use array indexes as stand-ins for pointers). In A(1), 1
> is a reference to the first component of A.
> So long as you are using arrays, you are using referential semantics. The
> only way to avoid it is to directly embed an object directly in an enclosing
> object (as in a record), and that doesn't work for many problems.

The key difference is that index does not refer any element. It is 
container + index that do.

 From the programming POV it is about avoiding hidden states when you 
try to sweep the container part under the rug.

>> I don't see anything that is not already there. What are reasons for not
>> providing:
>>     M (n)       [ e.g. M (n).Key, M (n).Value ]
>>     M (n1..n2)  [ in mutable contexts too ]
>>     M'First
>>     M'Last
>>     M1 & M2     [ M1 or M2 ]
>> They are all well-defined and useful operations.
> Performance.

Irrelevant so long it does not tamper implementations of other operations.

> If all of these things are user-definable, then one has to use
> subprogram calls to implement all of them. That can be very expensive,
> particularly in the case of mutable operations (and mutable slices are the
> worst of all).

But better, faster, safer when implemented ad-hoc by the programmer? See 
how this thread started. An elementary task, solved in a most 
inefficient, crude and unmaintainable way...

> Moreover, since one would want the ability to have generic
> and runtime parameters that only meet this interface (and the ability to
> pass slices to subprograms that take unconstrained array parameters), you
> would have to be able to pass all of these subprograms along with
> parameters, even when you don't need them. That would make array operations
> far more expensive than they are today.

Yes, and the language separates mutable and immutable stuff when using 
containers already. You cannot get around this issue.

> I think it is much better to get rid of most of these operations as built-in
> things and just let the programmer build their own operations as needed.

Well, if you'd proposed throwing containers out the standard library I 
would believe that you believe in that... (:-))

> That keeps the cost confined to those who use them. Distributed overhead is
> the worst kind, and slices in particular have a boatload of that overhead.

Usability always trumps performance. And again, looking at the standard 
containers and all these *tagged* *intermediate* objects one needs in 
order to do elementary things, I kind of in doubts... (:-))

Dmitry A. Kazakov

  reply	other threads:[~2024-01-03 10:04 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 40+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-12-28 13:53 Map iteration and modification DrPi
2023-12-28 13:59 ` DrPi
2023-12-28 16:06   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2023-12-28 17:57     ` DrPi
2023-12-29  3:20     ` Randy Brukardt
2023-12-29  9:51       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2023-12-29 15:03         ` G.B.
2023-12-29 16:52           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-01-01 19:27             ` G.B.
2024-01-01 20:55               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-01-02 16:40                 ` G.B.
2024-01-02 20:57                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-01-03  3:22                 ` Randy Brukardt
2024-01-03  4:05                   ` moi
2023-12-30  7:21         ` Randy Brukardt
2023-12-30 11:07           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-01-03  3:15             ` Randy Brukardt
2024-01-03 10:04               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov [this message]
2024-01-04  4:07                 ` Randy Brukardt
2024-01-04 11:28                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-01-05  2:00                     ` Randy Brukardt
2024-01-05  9:26                       ` Simon Wright
2024-01-05 11:51                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-01-06  7:25                         ` Randy Brukardt
2024-01-07 15:06                           ` Jeffrey R.Carter
2024-01-09  4:46                             ` Randy Brukardt
2024-01-09  5:56                               ` when-clauses (was Re: Map iteration and modification) Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-01-09  9:43                               ` Map iteration and modification Jeffrey R.Carter
2024-04-17 10:12                         ` Cóilín Nioclás Pól Glostéir
2024-01-06  2:54                       ` “Usability” (was Re: Map iteration and modification) Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-01-06  7:03                         ` "Usability" " Randy Brukardt
2024-01-06  8:14                           ` Niklas Holsti
2024-01-06 23:41                           ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-01-07  1:21                           ` J-P. Rosen
2024-01-09 15:19                             ` Bill Findlay
2024-01-09 20:30                             ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2023-12-29  3:08   ` Map iteration and modification Randy Brukardt
2023-12-29 13:53     ` DrPi
2023-12-30  6:29       ` Randy Brukardt
2023-12-31 13:56         ` DrPi
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