From: Stephen Leake <stephen.a.leake.1@gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Proving Correctness (was Java Portability)
Date: 06 Aug 2001 12:37:08 -0400
Date: 2001-08-06T16:37:16+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <un15dgn63.fsf@gsfc.nasa.gov> (raw)
In-Reply-To: bFxb7.6327$bO7.5653610@nnrp6.proxad.net
"nicolas" <n.brunot@cadwin.com> writes:
> "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> a �crit dans le message news:
> ulmkxuy80.fsf@wanadoo.fr...
> > Sorry but I'm very upset by your mail. If nobody does the job the job wont
> > gets done that it !
> I'll start to reply your last remark.
> There is absolutely no attack about this XML library. It's great to have it
> for students and Gnat users.
>
> But we were talking about standard and portable libraries designed to be
> independant of compilers.
> This is what Ada is designed for. This is about what Ada users are giving
> lessons to everybody.
> George gave me this XML library as an example to show that this type of
> library is available.
>
> This is not the case.
ok; you have one example of one library that is not compiler-portable.
> <snip>
> > Right. So ask you vendor to adapt an Open Source component or sell an
> > equivalent component.
>
> All the thread is about the fact that this is not an option and goes against
> Ada promotion
> Ada is designed to write code as much as possible independant from platforms
> and compilers.
> An XML library has nothing specific to a platform or a compiler.
> You can develop one with code totally independant of the compiler, and there
> is no reason to do otherwise.
>
> You may ask why we didn't develop that ourseleves : it is for very simple
> reasons.
> - We are not paid for that
> - Java does it much better.
How many Java libraries are portable across _different_ Java
implemntations, from _different_ vendors? I don't follow closely, but
I seem to remember that even Sun's libraries are not portable across
different Sun implementations of Java. So what are we comparing to here?
> It's clear to me that a standard library shouldn't have to be adapted to
> each compiler.
That is a desirable goal. We are discussing how to get there. Clearly,
the first version of a library might be compiler dependent. If the
people developing the library want compiler independence, they have to
put in some effort.
I don't see how Ada is any different from C++ in this regard. Can you
use MS Foundation classes in the Borland C++ environment, with
complete portability? I don't think so.
> We have more than 1 million lines of Ada code and are very careful
> to have them compiler independant. That's the least you can expect
> from an Ada library.
Well, maybe its the least _you_ expect :). I have different
expectations.
> I strongly believe that the lack of standard available library you can use
> 'as it is' without any modification, whatever compiler you use, goes against
> Ada rationale ...
I agree. But that doesn't mean it's a point against Ada, in favor of
Java or C++.
> I don't care who should do it .... I'm a user and like any other user I
> choose the best tool available for my needs.
> If ACT does everything to force Ada world to be dependant of Gnat compiler,
> it is ACT's decision.
Shades of Microsoft, don't you think? Works for them :).
> But I think it could kill Ada, and therefore ACT ...
Obviously, they disagree. It's their jobs on the line, I expect they
know better.
> > Let me add that we have tried in AWS to be compiler independant
> > (see AWS.OS_Lib) but since 2 or 3 releases this is not true
> > anymore. I don't > have the time to try on all available
> > compilers, the GNAT library is so nice > that I just can't bypass
> > it (GNAT.Regexp for example). So yes now AWS is mostly working
> > with GNAT... But I'd love to see others porting some stuff to be >
> > able to avoid this dependences :)
>
> I think it's a dead-end if everybody does his own job specific for his own
> tools, and wait for others to adapt it for others tools.
> This shows all the limitations of the process.
Yes. So what is a better process?
> We are giving to others languages users, all what they need, to be
> convinced that Ada users are themselves unable to stick to what they
> promote. If you can't bypass GNAT.Regexp, obviously GNAT.Regexp
> should be in the set of standard libraries, it shouldn't be named
> GNAT, and should be available as it is for any compiler. Once again
> Ada users give strong lessons to the rest of the world, and do
> exactly the opposite in practice ...
Ok. How do we make that happen? ACT isn't going to do it without some
monetary return; that's what businesses do.
--
-- Stephe
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2001-08-06 16:37 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 198+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2001-07-20 16:50 An Ada IDE and discussions Beard, Frank
2001-07-20 19:19 ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-23 8:26 ` nicolas
2001-07-23 8:53 ` Java portability (was: An Ada IDE and discussions) Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-23 9:32 ` Gerhard Häring
2001-07-23 11:26 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-24 18:59 ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-25 8:40 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-25 10:23 ` David C. Hoos, Sr.
2001-07-25 20:50 ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-26 8:07 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-23 9:48 ` nicolas
2001-07-23 11:23 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-23 12:07 ` nicolas
2001-07-23 13:57 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2001-07-23 16:55 ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-24 9:26 ` nicolas
2001-07-24 12:19 ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-24 13:10 ` nicolas
2001-07-24 20:30 ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-25 7:56 ` nicolas
2001-07-26 13:20 ` Java portability Georg Bauhaus
2001-07-26 15:13 ` nicolas
2001-07-27 9:52 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-07-27 10:22 ` nicolas
2001-07-27 14:17 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-27 16:44 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-27 17:13 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-27 20:09 ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-27 20:12 ` Straight Jackets Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-30 8:12 ` Java portability nicolas
2001-07-31 4:40 ` Proving Correctness (was Java Portability) Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-31 8:12 ` nicolas
2001-07-31 13:13 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-31 14:40 ` nicolas
2001-08-02 9:52 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-02 10:45 ` nicolas
2001-08-02 13:30 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-02 14:30 ` nicolas
2001-08-02 15:49 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-02 18:57 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-02 20:27 ` Wes Groleau
2001-08-05 2:40 ` rob
2001-08-05 10:15 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-02 8:44 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-02 10:02 ` nicolas
2001-08-02 13:26 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2001-08-02 14:18 ` nicolas
2001-08-02 21:46 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-03 8:12 ` nicolas
2001-08-03 13:18 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-03 13:59 ` nicolas
2001-08-03 13:51 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-03 14:54 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-03 15:16 ` nicolas
2001-08-03 17:10 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-06 8:52 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 9:39 ` Mike
2001-08-06 11:37 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 13:24 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-06 14:30 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 15:38 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-06 16:45 ` Stephen Leake
2001-08-07 0:14 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-07 7:18 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2001-08-07 17:43 ` Stephen Leake
2001-08-07 18:07 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 10:15 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2001-08-07 8:06 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 10:33 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-07 11:12 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 8:44 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 22:12 ` Larry Elmore
2001-08-07 22:54 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 7:45 ` nicolas
2001-08-11 23:17 ` Larry Elmore
2001-08-13 13:29 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 8:01 ` nicolas
2001-08-11 23:49 ` Larry Elmore
2001-08-13 13:51 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 10:22 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2001-08-08 13:46 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 14:25 ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2001-08-08 15:28 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 18:03 ` tmoran
2001-08-09 12:29 ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2001-08-09 16:21 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-09 7:12 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2001-08-11 23:57 ` Larry Elmore
2001-08-06 14:43 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 15:37 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-06 15:45 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-07 7:20 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2001-08-06 23:14 ` The pace of change (was Proving Correctness (was Java Portability)) Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-08-09 17:44 ` Proving Correctness (was Java Portability) Stefan Skoglund
2001-08-06 15:41 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-06 13:14 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-06 14:16 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 15:45 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-06 16:14 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 16:41 ` Stephen Leake
2001-08-07 8:11 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 10:47 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-07 11:31 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 11:50 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 14:08 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-07 19:19 ` David Starner
2001-08-07 20:56 ` tmoran
2001-08-07 22:32 ` Ed Falis
2001-08-09 21:20 ` Pascal Obry
2001-08-07 22:31 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 5:24 ` David Starner
2001-08-08 14:34 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 18:03 ` tmoran
2001-08-09 4:31 ` David Starner
2001-08-09 20:56 ` David Starner
2001-08-09 21:00 ` David Starner
2001-08-08 12:17 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-08 14:54 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 19:20 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-08 19:49 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-09 12:31 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-09 17:34 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-10 4:29 ` Simon Wright
2001-08-13 14:09 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-13 14:26 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-14 11:58 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-13 19:38 ` Simon Wright
2001-08-07 20:56 ` Florian Weimer
2001-08-07 22:43 ` Marin David Condic
2001-09-05 15:33 ` Ted Dennison
2001-08-06 16:37 ` Stephen Leake [this message]
2001-08-06 17:44 ` tmoran
2001-08-07 8:31 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 9:06 ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2001-08-07 9:20 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 10:01 ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2001-08-07 10:29 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 10:54 ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2001-08-07 11:28 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 23:02 ` Larry Elmore
2001-08-08 8:37 ` nicolas
2001-08-12 0:22 ` Larry Elmore
2001-08-07 21:52 ` Ada Components " Lao Xiao Hai
2001-08-08 17:09 ` Brian Rogoff
2001-08-08 10:50 ` More Uniform Ada libraries (was: Proving Correctness) Larry Kilgallen
[not found] ` <y%Ob7.737$ep5.11352@news1.okOrganization: LJK Software <0TDoe8bALz3g@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2001-08-08 12:03 ` nicolas
2001-08-08 12:11 ` Larry Kilgallen
[not found] ` <y%Ob7.737$ep5.11352@news1.okOrganization: LJK Software <uiGL0WHzXluf@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2001-08-08 13:03 ` nicolas
2001-08-08 15:05 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 15:51 ` nicolas
2001-08-08 18:03 ` tmoran
2001-08-08 19:16 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-08 21:36 ` Stephen Leake
2001-08-09 7:47 ` nicolas
2001-08-10 15:44 ` Stephen Leake
2001-09-04 4:32 ` brentcarnellis
2001-09-04 4:36 ` Ed Falis
2001-09-05 0:01 ` Jeff Creem
2001-09-05 4:13 ` brentcarnellis
2001-09-05 13:13 ` Samuel T. Harris
2001-09-06 5:08 ` brentcarnellis
2001-09-06 13:29 ` Samuel T. Harris
2001-09-07 3:56 ` brentcarnellis
2001-09-07 12:45 ` Samuel T. Harris
2001-08-07 12:09 ` Proving Correctness (was Java Portability) Larry Kilgallen
2001-08-06 16:12 ` Darren New
2001-08-07 12:12 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-07 12:26 ` nicolas
2001-08-07 12:37 ` nicolas
[not found] ` <9kelv1$riq$ <3B72CC18.F07195D1@ebox.tninet.se>
2001-08-12 6:34 ` Simon Wright
2001-08-04 4:14 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-08-03 13:43 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-03 14:15 ` nicolas
2001-08-04 22:31 ` AG
2001-08-06 8:19 ` nicolas
2001-08-06 15:56 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-03 16:02 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-08-03 15:25 ` Larry Kilgallen
[not found] ` <9Organization: LJK Software <pLczjM8J5xm3@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2001-08-03 15:27 ` Marin David Condic
2001-08-01 18:49 ` Java portability John Doe
2001-08-02 4:38 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2001-07-27 19:44 ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-27 20:43 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-28 1:04 ` Java portability (was: An Ada IDE and discussions) Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-28 21:45 ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-26 13:19 ` Java portability Georg Bauhaus
2001-07-26 15:07 ` nicolas
2001-07-27 9:36 ` Georg Bauhaus
2001-07-27 9:56 ` nicolas
2001-07-27 13:06 ` Georg Bauhaus
[not found] ` <9jrcmm$mc0$1@aOrganization: LJK Software <Yjoj5DGkwoqg@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2001-07-27 11:43 ` nicolas
2001-07-27 12:02 ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-08-02 2:43 ` Robert Dewar
2001-08-02 13:18 ` Marc A. Criley
2001-08-02 8:03 ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-30 20:00 ` Java portability (was: An Ada IDE and discussions) Dave Adlam
2001-07-24 2:54 ` An Ada IDE and discussions Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
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