Re: This is a simple question

[David Bolen <db3l@fitlinxx.com>]

"Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes:

> I keep hearing how wonderful EMACS is. My experience with it on various Unix
> systems doesn't seem to impress me with its overall wonderfulness. I keep
> thinking it must be hiding its lamp under a bushel basket. I tried to
> download and run a version of it on WinNT/PC. It wouldn't compile and I
> didn't have time or incentive to want to mess with it. Maybe its lamp is
> under a bushel basket that is burried in a cave somewhere? :-)

There are definitely binary distributions (I guess Ted pointed to one
in a separate response).  Normally you just manually unpack - it's not
a horrendous Windows application that needs to put all sorts of files
in the system directory, and the tiny (optional) tweak to the registry
is handled by a single executable, so as nice as InstallShield can be
its also overkill in this case.

Building from source is no mean feat, and definitely not to be
undertaken unless absolutely required.  Emacs may sometimes just be
called an "editor" but a small system it is not.

> Quite possibly EMACS is the ultimate solution. However, AFAIK, there isn't
> some sort of Ada-ized version of it available as a .exe for WinNT that can
> be simply downloaded, install-shielded and executed.

To Emacs, Ada is just another language binding that it supports, so
no, there isn't a specialized Ada-ized version of it.  That's not to
say that the Ada major-mode isn't as good as any other IDE at handling
Ada, only that it's just one of many to Emacs.

>                                                      OTOH, you've got
> AdaGide that satisfies that set of criteria. Since I'm not currently doing
> Ada development for a living, its easier to use AdaGide for the handful of
> things for which I *am* using Ada and it doesn't seem to involve nearly the
> amount of fuss.

I did take a look at AdaGide and it appears quite capable.
Interestingly enough, as an Emacs user, I have the opposite reaction
though - I hate using a tool that is only set up for one language.
Rather than switching to AdaGide when I'd want to do Ada, I just use
the same tool I already use for C, C++, Python, etc...  (I avoid the
VC++ IDE unless absolutely necessary too for example).

I'm not necessarily suggesting you'd want to switch to it just for
this.  It does have a decidedly steep learning curve, but more than
commensurate (IMO) with its underlying capabilities.  But I figured
I'd mention that it did handle the item you were asking for - for
those who may already using it.

>                 If one of the EMACS proponents has a version that is
> as automagic as AdaGide to get up and running and wants to put it on
> a website somewhere, I'd be glad to take it out for a test
> drive. Mind you: I'll treat it like the typical software end user
> who doesn't want to "understand" it - just "use" it right out of the
> box. Anything more complex than unzipping and install-shielding will
> be met with verbal abuse! :-)

I'm not sure I'd necessarily subject it to the "not want to
'understand' it" though - it's not a simple calculator or one purpose
tool.  It's a general purpose, extensible editor, that can be a very
powerful tool for a developer, but one which requires some investment
in time to harness and grow comfortable with.  Not altogether unlike
other development tools.  So sure you want to get up and running
reasonably fast, but I'd keep an expectation of working to learn the
system as the best way to reap the most benefits.

For me, over the years, my investment in Emacs as my primary
development editor and environment has paid off handsomely.  I've been
using Emacs as my sole development editor for the last 17 years or so
(first got introduced on a Tops-20 system), across at least 3-4 major
Emacs implementations, 4-5 major system types and even more variants
of Unix, working under a dozen or so languages, and even the majority
of my current local initialization file has been with me for over 10
years.  It's been around as long or longer than many of the languages
I use, not to mention most PC operating systems and even PCs.  I think
I've "touch-typed" Emacs editing commands for a while now :-)

It's just about the first package I'll install on any new system that
I may encounter that doesn't already have it.  I don't get stuck
worrying about WYSIWYG interfaces (I rarely touch a mouse within
Emacs, although it certainly supports it) and I'm more productive
inside of Emacs than any GUI IDE I've seen to date.

It might not be as flashy as modern GUI stuff (although the XEmacs
variant works harder along those lines), but it's immensely powerful
under the covers, virtually infinitely customizeable and extendable.

Heck, I'm writing this post from GNUS running inside of NT Emacs on my
NT 4 machine.  Thus, every bit of editing support that I have
available to me for development is also available while composing the
news messages - including writing test code snippets for posting and
compiling in a buffer to check them and then include output, all with
standard editor kill and yank commands and no mouse involvement.  And
I've been using the same newsreader interface inside of Emacs for
about 10 years across many systems :-)

The above isn't said to try to convert anyone (Editor battles are just
pointless), but just to try to give a flavor of how Emacs sort of
settles into your bones as a developer over time, and thus why its
die-hard users may make such a big deal about it.

--
-- David
-- 
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