Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Frank J. Lhota]

Would WordStar have survived if it was rewritten in Ada?

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Dave Head]

"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:JZo9a.25710$8f7.21367@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
> Would WordStar have survived if it was rewritten in Ada?

No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those keyboard
key combinations.  Nobody wants to do that.  Its also why EMACS hasn't taken
over the world's programming consoles except on those owned by people with
really, really good memories.

Dave Head

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Frank J. Lhota]

"Dave Head" <rally2xs@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:b45n94$bad$1@oanews.nswc.navy.mil...
> No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those
keyboard
> key combinations.  Nobody wants to do that.  Its also why EMACS hasn't
taken
> over the world's programming consoles except on those owned by people with
> really, really good memories.

And yet back when WordStar was king, so many people were familiar with the
WS key combinations that other applications used that interface. Of course,
after the mass exodus to WordPerfect, these same apps began to look a little
silly.

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Pascal Obry]

"Dave Head" <rally2xs@compuserve.com> writes:

> No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those keyboard
> key combinations.  Nobody wants to do that.  Its also why EMACS hasn't taken
> over the world's programming consoles except on those owned by people with
> really, really good memories.

This is wrong. I'm an heavy Emacs user and for sure I don't have a
good memory! Anyway completely OT ;)

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Robert A Duff]

Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> This is wrong. I'm an heavy Emacs user and for sure I don't have a
> good memory! Anyway completely OT ;)

You don't need a good memory to use Emacs.  Your *fingers* need a good
memory.  ;-)

- Bob

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[DPH]

On 05 Mar 2003 17:37:47 -0500, Robert A Duff
<bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote:

>Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>
>> This is wrong. I'm an heavy Emacs user and for sure I don't have a
>> good memory! Anyway completely OT ;)
>
>You don't need a good memory to use Emacs.  Your *fingers* need a good
>memory.  ;-)
>
>- Bob

Yah, whatever... <G>  Just got tired of looking up the same command
for the 13th time, or getting stuck in some state that I didn't know
how to get back to where I was and then spending 35 minutes rummaging
around thru the help and then just finally getting out of the program
and starting over, etc.  Gimmie a pull-down menu every time...  I'll
learn the key combos by seeing it there for 500 or so times...  and
then just start using it, but without any time lost having to look it
up again... and again... and again...

I was gonna build a cheat sheet of commands until someone told me
there are 100's of them.  Knowing I'd never memorize 'em all, I went
back to what I was using and uninstalled emacs.

Never did get into Wordstar for more than a day...  and that was back
when I was 15 years younger and my memory was better.

Dave Head

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Frank J. Lhota]

If you really, really loved the WordStar keystrokes, check out
http://www.wordstar.org to get an MS Word add-in that emulates the WordStar
commands. Yes, this is for real, I am not capable of making up something
that crazy.

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[John R. Strohm]

"DPH" <rally2xs@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:sm1d6vgo9rv7rhkkjj7cmjr1rdq63jj7ia@4ax.com...
> Yah, whatever... <G>  Just got tired of looking up the same command
> for the 13th time, or getting stuck in some state that I didn't know
> how to get back to where I was and then spending 35 minutes rummaging
> around thru the help and then just finally getting out of the program
> and starting over, etc.  Gimmie a pull-down menu every time...  I'll
> learn the key combos by seeing it there for 500 or so times...  and
> then just start using it, but without any time lost having to look it
> up again... and again... and again...
>
> I was gonna build a cheat sheet of commands until someone told me
> there are 100's of them.  Knowing I'd never memorize 'em all, I went
> back to what I was using and uninstalled emacs.

You don't have to build a cheat sheet.  Emacs has it built-in.  Control-H b
describe-bindings does it for you.

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Stephen Leake]

DPH <rally2xs@compuserve.com> writes:

> [about Emacs] Gimmie a pull-down menu every time...  

Emacs has pull-down menus, for the most common operations. 

It also has a very easily accessed complete list of the key bindings.

Yes, there is a lot to learn to use Emacs well; I've been using it for
15 years, and I'm still learning.

Same goes for Ada, and for any powerful, complex, extremely useful
system.

> I was gonna build a cheat sheet of commands until someone told me
> there are 100's of them.  Knowing I'd never memorize 'em all, I went
> back to what I was using and uninstalled emacs.

Ok. You'll be less productive than me, so I'll survive better in the
market place :).

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[DPH]

On 06 Mar 2003 14:45:25 -0500, Stephen Leake
<Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> wrote:

>DPH <rally2xs@compuserve.com> writes:
>
>> [about Emacs] Gimmie a pull-down menu every time...  
>
>Emacs has pull-down menus, for the most common operations. 

The one I got hold of a couple years ago had nothing resembling
pull-down menus.  I was using it on Windows - maybe that's the
difference.

>It also has a very easily accessed complete list of the key bindings.

>Yes, there is a lot to learn to use Emacs well; I've been using it for
>15 years, and I'm still learning.

Well, that's not encouraging - I'm going to retire in less than
that... <G>

>Same goes for Ada, and for any powerful, complex, extremely useful
>system.
>
>> I was gonna build a cheat sheet of commands until someone told me
>> there are 100's of them.  Knowing I'd never memorize 'em all, I went
>> back to what I was using and uninstalled emacs.
>
>Ok. You'll be less productive than me, so I'll survive better in the
>market place :).

Of course, its a basic tenent of software engineering that more time
is spent in the design phase than in the code and test phase, so
overall, I doubt an editor will be all that significant an impact.
Plus, I use Microsoft Word, unless I'm in and IDE, and anything I want
it to do that it doesn't do, I can pretty much use VBA and make it do
it.  I just don't much need colored keywords...  I know what they
are... <G>

Dave Head

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Stephen Leake]

DPH <rally2xs@compuserve.com> writes:

> On 06 Mar 2003 14:45:25 -0500, Stephen Leake
> <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> wrote:
> 
> >DPH <rally2xs@compuserve.com> writes:
> >
> >> [about Emacs] Gimmie a pull-down menu every time...  
> >
> >Emacs has pull-down menus, for the most common operations. 
> 
> The one I got hold of a couple years ago had nothing resembling
> pull-down menus.  I was using it on Windows - maybe that's the
> difference.

http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/ntemacs.html

I've been using it for at least 5 years.

> >Ok. You'll be less productive than me, so I'll survive better in the
> >market place :).
> 
> Of course, its a basic tenent of software engineering that more time
> is spent in the design phase than in the code and test phase, so
> overall, I doubt an editor will be all that significant an impact.

It has a noticable impact for me. But that may just be my frustration
level with the more primitive systems; I don't have hard data that
says I'm twice as fast with Emacs as with Borland. But I suspect it's
true.

I have a similar difference in productivity between Ada and C++ (just
to bring this back closer to on-topic :). Tools matter!

> Plus, I use Microsoft Word, unless I'm in and IDE, and anything I
> want it to do that it doesn't do, I can pretty much use VBA and make
> it do it. 

Same for Emacs; I just write some elisp. And since I use LaTeX instead
of Word, I only need one IDE!

> I just don't much need colored keywords... I know what
> they are... <G>

Yes, but it really is easier (thus faster) to read if they color is
right. It's amazingly painful to use an Emacs that has not yet been
properly configured; the first thing I do is configure it, then get on
with my work. But maybe that's just me.


-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Pascal Obry]

Stephen Leake <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> writes:

> Yes, but it really is easier (thus faster) to read if they color is
> right. It's amazingly painful to use an Emacs that has not yet been
> properly configured; the first thing I do is configure it, then get on
> with my work. But maybe that's just me.

No that's not you. I have the exact same feeling. Tools are very important and
a big factor in productivity. Why should computer science be different than
other fields ? Try cutting your lawn with scissors :)

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Dave Head wrote:
> "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:JZo9a.25710$8f7.21367@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
> 
>>Would WordStar have survived if it was rewritten in Ada?
> 
> 
> No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those keyboard
> key combinations.  Nobody wants to do that.  Its also why EMACS hasn't taken
> over the world's programming consoles except on those owned by people with
> really, really good memories.
> 
> Dave Head

Ha! I have a lousy memory, but EMACS is where I live. "Those
keyboard combinations" are perfectly natural responses, after all! ;-)

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Peter Hermann]

Warren W. Gay VE3WWG <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> Ha! I have a lousy memory, but EMACS is where I live. "Those
> keyboard combinations" are perfectly natural responses, after all! ;-)

I made several hopeful startups to acqauint to EMACS
however got stuck in those odd key sequences,
their mappings of which are extremely noncompatible 
on different keyboard brands. :-(

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Stephen Leake]

Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> writes:

> I made several hopeful startups to acqauint to EMACS
> however got stuck in those odd key sequences,
> their mappings of which are extremely noncompatible 
> on different keyboard brands. :-(

First thing I did when I got serious about Emacs was make my own list
of bindings to all the keys I care about. Then when I had to use a
weird keyboard, I just copied and edited that list. Made things much
easier.

These days, either everything has a "standard PC keyboard", or I can
just run an X server on my PC to get to it. 

Life is good :).


-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Preben Randhol]

Dave Head wrote:
> 
> "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:JZo9a.25710$8f7.21367@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>> Would WordStar have survived if it was rewritten in Ada?
> 
> No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those keyboard
> key combinations.  Nobody wants to do that.  Its also why EMACS hasn't taken
> over the world's programming consoles except on those owned by people with
> really, really good memories.

Well, I actually went from Emacs to Vim which has a lot of key
combinations. For me it works. But then again I wouldn't teach my better
half to use Vim.

However, it makes me cringe when I see people using the mouse and menu
for Copy and Paste.

-- 
 ()   Join the worldwide campaign to protect fundamental human rights.
'||}
{||'                                           http://www.amnesty.org/

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Dave Head]

"Preben Randhol" <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message
news:slrnb6dtep.li.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no...
> Dave Head wrote:
> >
> > "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:JZo9a.25710$8f7.21367@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
> >> Would WordStar have survived if it was rewritten in Ada?
> >
> > No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those
keyboard
> > key combinations.  Nobody wants to do that.  Its also why EMACS hasn't
taken
> > over the world's programming consoles except on those owned by people
with
> > really, really good memories.
>
> Well, I actually went from Emacs to Vim which has a lot of key
> combinations. For me it works. But then again I wouldn't teach my better
> half to use Vim.
>
> However, it makes me cringe when I see people using the mouse and menu
> for Copy and Paste.

Oh, yeah, me too...  I can't remember how I did it before Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V,
but I don't think I used the menu more than a few times for it.

And that's something else - while I can't explain Ctrl-V, at least Ctrl-C is
intuitive since it is a "copy" function - and Ctrl-C is the control key with
the 1st letter of the word copy.  I guess having the V right beside the C is
its only saving grace.

Then there's just delete to delete some highlighted text (no, I don't want
to use any keystrokes to do my highlighting like in Vi, if I remember
right...) and Ctrl-delete to copy it to the clipboard while also deleting it
from the document.

Anyway, I find bringing up  a help screen much less user-friendly than
activating a drop-down menu.  The drop-down menu just seems to be faster,
and I can get rid of it easier.  It fits a paradigm learned in all the other
windows apps and so I don't have to do anything special.

Maybe after I retire and I have tons of time to waste on memorizing all that
stuff... <G>

Dave Head

>
> --
>  ()   Join the worldwide campaign to protect fundamental human rights.
> '||}
> {||'                                           http://www.amnesty.org/

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Peter Hermann]

Dave Head <rally2xs@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Maybe after I retire and I have tons of time to waste on memorizing all that
> stuff... <G>

or roll your own editor...
(in Ada inside AdaOS, just dreaming)

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Dave Head wrote:
> "Preben Randhol" <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnb6dtep.li.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no...
> 
>>Dave Head wrote:
>>
>>>"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>news:JZo9a.25710$8f7.21367@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>>>
>>>>Would WordStar have survived if it was rewritten in Ada?
>>>
>>>No.  The thing that killed WordStar is having to memorize all those
...
>>Well, I actually went from Emacs to Vim which has a lot of key
>>combinations. For me it works. But then again I wouldn't teach my better
>>half to use Vim.
>>
>>However, it makes me cringe when I see people using the mouse and menu
>>for Copy and Paste.
> 
> Oh, yeah, me too...  I can't remember how I did it before Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V,
> but I don't think I used the menu more than a few times for it.

What I hate is that Win2K command window still does not support any
keyboard shortcut for paste. You always have to pull down the system
menu, select Edit, then select Paste. Now there is a model of
efficiency for you! At least copy can be done with mouse and CR.

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Ludovic Brenta]

"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:

> Dave Head wrote:
> What I hate is that Win2K command window still does not support any
> keyboard shortcut for paste. You always have to pull down the system
> menu, select Edit, then select Paste. Now there is a model of
> efficiency for you! At least copy can be done with mouse and CR.

Alt+Space E P

I use it whenever I'm stuck with a Windows box.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Stephen Leake]

"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:

> What I hate is that Win2K command window still does not support any
> keyboard shortcut for paste. You always have to pull down the system
> menu, select Edit, then select Paste. Now there is a model of
> efficiency for you! At least copy can be done with mouse and CR.

You can access the System Menu with Alt-space, and then use keys to
navigate the menu. I guess that's a "keyboard long-cut" (not a
short-cut :).

One thing Microsoft got right was allowing people to use the system
without a mouse. I hate web pages that don't follow that principle.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Somewhat on Topic: Word Processing

[Georg Bauhaus]

Warren W. Gay VE3WWG <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote:
: efficiency for you! At least copy can be done with mouse and CR.
 
mark, right click, right click again.

-- Georg
---
Microsoft Windows--a fresh perspective on information hiding