Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[RasikaSrinivasan]

http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[Martyn Pike]

RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com wrote:
> http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded

An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ?

*Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all 
those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free.

As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here 
(http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, 
not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ?

If I call Adacore up and say :

"Where can I download a pre-built binary free/GPL version of GNAT that 
is hosted on Windows but cross compiles to PowerPC and gives me a 
Ravenscar Profile compliant runtime for my hypothetical barebones hobby 
project ?"

I would be told those requirements mean I needed a GNAT Pro subscription 
which is not free.

I quote the article :

 > Tasking is a built-in feature, not a bolt-on requiring
 > expensive dalliances with RTOS vendors

Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer 
actually pays twice.  They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and 
stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that 
layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS.

If I chose the language supported by the RTOS vendors stock tools 
(invariably C/C++) then I only pay the RTOS vendor.  Albeit I would pay 
in blood, sweat and tears later on in my project lifecycle !

It is very confusing for me, as an Ada developer, to read an article 
like this and not feel like new converts to the Ada cause are being spammed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.  I am not knocking Jack Ganssle or 
Adacore for their efforts but I find this article slightly misleading.

Martyn

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[Jeffrey Creem]

Martyn Pike wrote:
> RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com wrote:
>> http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded
> 
> An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ?
> 
> *Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all 
> those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free.
> 
> As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here 
> (http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, 
> not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ?
> 

This is not quite correct. As far as I know, all versions of GNAT Pro 
for all targets are free software and covered by the GPL/GPL+Exception 
clause.

Just turns out that if you want to get it from AdaCore you will have to 
purchase a GNATPro subscription.

So, for the free you are talking about I agree but I believe you are 
incorrect about the GPL assertion.

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[Martyn Pike]

Jeffrey Creem wrote:

> 
> This is not quite correct. As far as I know, all versions of GNAT Pro 
> for all targets are free software and covered by the GPL/GPL+Exception 
> clause.
> 
> Just turns out that if you want to get it from AdaCore you will have to 
> purchase a GNATPro subscription.
> 
> So, for the free you are talking about I agree but I believe you are 
> incorrect about the GPL assertion.

ok - I see.  Thanks Jeffrey for clearing that up for me and I stand 
corrected.

Martyn

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development

[anon]

Except for a few OS like Linux or the many favors of BSD, a software 
developer have to pay extra to get the tools to access the full features of 
the OS, even if a free or low cost compiler is provided.  These tools with 
documentation are normally call a Software Development Kit (SDK).

And if you check with IBM, they have two version of Ada. One is a CDROM 
compiler only version which sells for less than $200.00 with what they 
call a media license.  But the full SDK Ada version starts around $15K per 
year which is about the same price for Adacore's GNAT Pro.

So, compilers may be cheap but you will pay and pay big for the addition 
of the SDK.

I just wish that Adacore would think about offering the Ravenscar subsystem 
as a separate package that may be free or they could charge a onetime fee 
for a non-updatable version of the package.

Now, as for the article well its like a reviewer says the movie is Great, but 
there is no valid information on why its GREAT!


In <u-6dnX_qZOC4rh_UnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> writes:
>RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com wrote:
>> http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded
>
>An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ?
>
>*Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all 
>those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free.
>
>As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here 
>(http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free, 
>not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ?
>
>If I call Adacore up and say :
>
>"Where can I download a pre-built binary free/GPL version of GNAT that 
>is hosted on Windows but cross compiles to PowerPC and gives me a 
>Ravenscar Profile compliant runtime for my hypothetical barebones hobby 
>project ?"
>
>I would be told those requirements mean I needed a GNAT Pro subscription 
>which is not free.
>
>I quote the article :
>
> > Tasking is a built-in feature, not a bolt-on requiring
> > expensive dalliances with RTOS vendors
>
>Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer 
>actually pays twice.  They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and 
>stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that 
>layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS.
>
>If I chose the language supported by the RTOS vendors stock tools 
>(invariably C/C++) then I only pay the RTOS vendor.  Albeit I would pay 
>in blood, sweat and tears later on in my project lifecycle !
>
>It is very confusing for me, as an Ada developer, to read an article 
>like this and not feel like new converts to the Ada cause are being spammed.
>
>Please correct me if I am wrong.  I am not knocking Jack Ganssle or 
>Adacore for their efforts but I find this article slightly misleading.
>
>Martyn
>
>
>

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development

[RasikaSrinivasan]

I didnt realize IBM had an Ada compiler. Is this based on gnat? (I
will now go to google)

Any case what does "full SDK" Ada mean? Packages to O/S like starlet
used to be for VMS?


On Jan 30, 4:19 am, a...@anon.org (anon) wrote:
> Except for a few OS like Linux or the many favors of BSD, a software
> developer have to pay extra to get the tools to access the full features of
> the OS, even if a free or low cost compiler is provided.  These tools with
> documentation are normally call a Software Development Kit (SDK).
>
> And if you check with IBM, they have two version of Ada. One is a CDROM
> compiler only version which sells for less than $200.00 with what they
> call a media license.  But the full SDK Ada version starts around $15K per
> year which is about the same price for Adacore's GNAT Pro.
>
> So, compilers may be cheap but you will pay and pay big for the addition
> of the SDK.
>
> I just wish that Adacore would think about offering the Ravenscar subsystem
> as a separate package that may be free or they could charge a onetime fee
> for a non-updatable version of the package.
>
> Now, as for the article well its like a reviewer says the movie is Great, but
> there is no valid information on why its GREAT!
>
> In <u-6dnX_qZOC4rh_UnZ2dneKdnZydn...@giganews.com>, Martyn Pike <emco...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >RasikaSriniva...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>http://www.embedded.com/212902632?cid=NL_embedded
>
> >An interesting article, but is it 100% accurate ?
>
> >*Some* free tools maybe but I disagree with the implication that all
> >those ports to most mainstream 16 and 32 bit CPUs are free.
>
> >As far as I am aware, the profiles referenced here
> >(http://www.adacore.com/home/gnatpro/toolsuite/runtimes/) are not free,
> >not licensed by the GPL and only available to GNAT Pro customers ?
>
> >If I call Adacore up and say :
>
> >"Where can I download a pre-built binary free/GPL version of GNAT that
> >is hosted on Windows but cross compiles to PowerPC and gives me a
> >Ravenscar Profile compliant runtime for my hypothetical barebones hobby
> >project ?"
>
> >I would be told those requirements mean I needed a GNAT Pro subscription
> >which is not free.
>
> >I quote the article :
>
> > > Tasking is a built-in feature, not a bolt-on requiring
> > > expensive dalliances with RTOS vendors
>
> >Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer
> >actually pays twice.  They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and
> >stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that
> >layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS.
>
> >If I chose the language supported by the RTOS vendors stock tools
> >(invariably C/C++) then I only pay the RTOS vendor.  Albeit I would pay
> >in blood, sweat and tears later on in my project lifecycle !
>
> >It is very confusing for me, as an Ada developer, to read an article
> >like this and not feel like new converts to the Ada cause are being spammed.
>
> >Please correct me if I am wrong.  I am not knocking Jack Ganssle or
> >Adacore for their efforts but I find this article slightly misleading.
>
> >Martyn
>
>

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development

[Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester]

On 2009-01-30, RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com <RasikaSrinivasan@gmail.com>
wrote:

|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"I didnt realize IBM had an Ada compiler. Is this based on gnat? (I|
|will now go to google)                                             |
|                                                                   |
|[..]"                                                              |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

No.

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development

[Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester]

On 2009-01-30, anon <anon@anon.org> wrote:

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"[..]                                                                         |
|                                                                              |
|And if you check with IBM, they have two version of Ada. One is a CDROM       |
|compiler only version which sells for less than $200.00 with what they        |
|call a media license.  But the full SDK Ada version starts around $15K per    |
|year which is about the same price for Adacore's GNAT Pro."                   |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Which IBM Ada compilers are so cheap? In September 2008 an employee of
I.B.M. informed me that the least I could expect to be demanded for a
copy would be:
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!
!"[..]                                                                                          !
!                                                                                               !
!Price list for 1 license of IBM Rational ADA Developer Enterprise Edition Floating User License!
!+ SW Subscription & Support 12 Months is 35.499,00 EUR, but Universidade de Coimbra can acquire!
!it for special price of  14.200,00 EUR.                                                        !
!                                                                                               !
![..]"                                                                                          !
!-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!

"14.200,00 EUR" was probably intended to convey 14,200.00 Euro.

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"[..]                                                                         |
|                                                                              |
|I just wish that Adacore would think about offering the Ravenscar subsystem   |
|as a separate package that may be free or they could charge a onetime fee     |
|for a non-updatable version of the package.                                   |
|                                                                              |
|[..]"                                                                         |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

HTTP://Polaris.DIT.UPM.Es/~ork/

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester]

On 2009-01-29, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote:

|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"[..]                                                                       |
|                                                                            |
|Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer        |
|actually pays twice.  They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and       |
|stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that        |
|layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS.                                        |
|                                                                            |
|[..]"                                                                       |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Hello,

They do not need an operating system. They do not need AdaCore. They
do not need GNARL/GNULL.

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[Martyn Pike]

Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester wrote:
> On 2009-01-29, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> |----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |"[..]                                                                       |
> |                                                                            |
> |Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer        |
> |actually pays twice.  They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and       |
> |stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that        |
> |layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS.                                        |
> |                                                                            |
> |[..]"                                                                       |
> |----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> 
> Hello,
> 
> They do not need an operating system. They do not need AdaCore. They
> do not need GNARL/GNULL.

Hello. Would you care to elaborate please ?
thanks.

Re: Every little bit helps - Publicity in Embedded Systems Development mag

[Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester]

On 2009-02-02, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote:

|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester wrote:                                  |
|> On 2009-01-29, Martyn Pike <emconuk@gmail.com> wrote:                  |
|>                                                                        |
|> |---------------------------------------------------------------------||
|> |"[..]                                                                ||
|> |                                                                     ||
|> |Those expensive dalliances still exist, but I feel the Ada developer ||
|> |actually pays twice.  They pay the RTOS vendor for the OS license and||
|> |stock tools and then they have to pay Adacore for the Ada tools that ||
|> |layer GNARL/GNULL ontop of the RTOS.                                 ||
|> |                                                                     ||
|> |[..]"                                                                ||
|> |---------------------------------------------------------------------||
|>                                                                        |
|> Hello,                                                                 |
|>                                                                        |
|> They do not need an operating system. They do not need AdaCore. They   |
|> do not need GNARL/GNULL.                                               |
|                                                                         |
|Hello. Would you care to elaborate please ?                              |
|thanks."                                                                 |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Hello.

Traditionally, older embedded Ada implementations did not need an
operating system: the scheduling was performed by the Ada runtime
executive without using something called an operating system (though
from a completely theoretical application terminology, a pedant might
call such an Ada runtime executive an operating
system). AVR-(subset)Ada does not use an operating system. A RAVENSCAR
implementation from Aonix does not bother with the overhead of an
operating system. (Though people who insist on using an operating
system can use an alternative product from Aonix.)

AdaCore is not needed: AdaCore is not the universe of Ada
implementations.

By using some of the alternatives mentioned above, GNAT would be
irrelevant and so would GNARL/GNULL.