* Ada_Arrays Project @ 2003-11-27 12:08 M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 12:55 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-27 21:43 ` SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] Nick Roberts 0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-27 12:08 UTC (permalink / raw) (Sorry for duplicates. I've sent this message before via comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org but for some reason it does not seem to have reached the newsgroup. I'm using Google now, so my replies will be tardy.) I'm entertaining the idea of a generic package Ada_Arrays and children where Ada_Arrays is like Ada.Strings except the element type is generic instead of Character. Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? Anybody did it? Anybody interested in collaborating? I'm considering doing it by program(med) transformation of existing source-code for Ada.Strings. My first studies indicate semantic analysis is required, so this might configure an ASIS application. (I'm also interested in this project as a test case for open source software licensing. I'd like to release it under a "commercial open source" license like one of those endorsed by the Software Developers Cooperative (www.softdevelcoop.org). Specially if done by way of program transformation from the GPLed GNAT, the licensing of Ada_Arrays is a complex issue.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 12:08 Ada_Arrays Project M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-27 12:55 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-27 20:36 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 21:43 ` SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] Nick Roberts 1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-11-27 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2003-11-27, M?rio Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote: > Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? No, but please explain why you find it useful :-) > (I'm also interested in this project as a test case for open source > software licensing. I'd like to release it under a "commercial open > source" license like one of those endorsed by the Software Developers > Cooperative (www.softdevelcoop.org). Specially if done by way of Why? What is wrong with GMGPL? > program transformation from the GPLed GNAT, the licensing of > Ada_Arrays is a complex issue.) -- "Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming language." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 12:55 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-11-27 20:36 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 21:40 ` Georg Bauhaus ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-27 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw) > > Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? > No, but please explain why you find it useful :-) Standard fixed, bounded and unbounded arrays of *any* element type sounds yummy to me. I know there are some libraries out there that provide things like this. Advantages of generating it from Ada.Strings would include: - interface and semantics already very well known by users - validation carried over from Ada.Strings - added facilities e.g. Find_Token - fun ASIS project But if "no"--*nobody* foresees the usefulness--then I'll accept I'm not seeing right and I'll drop the project on the spot and say thanks for the eye operation and I'm sorry for the all the fuss. > > (I'm also interested in this project as a test case for open source > > software licensing. I'd like to release it under a "commercial open > > source" license... > Why? What is wrong with GMGPL? Nothing "wrong", it just isn't commercial. If you don't want to make money then GMGPL is fine. The basic idea of commercial open source is that if an (open source) component ends up being part of a lucrative setup then the authors of the component receive a fair reward. Before objecting please review the material indexed on the SDC site, for example my essay Open Source Business Found Parasitic, Bob Leif's Ada Developers Cooperative License, and the Commented Conditions of Use of SDC Artifacts. And I suggest we don't discuss the general issue here (it's OT). You're very welcome to do it on the SDC forum of course (www.softdevelcoop.org). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 20:36 ` M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-27 21:40 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-11-28 14:07 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 22:19 ` Jeff C, 2003-11-28 14:41 ` Preben Randhol 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-11-27 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw) M?rio Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote: :> > Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? :> No, but please explain why you find it useful :-) : : Standard fixed, bounded and unbounded arrays of *any* element type : sounds yummy to me. For a start, you could turn the non-Character items into satellite data orbitting a Character value? -- Georg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 21:40 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-11-28 14:07 ` M?rio Amado Alves 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-28 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw) > : Standard fixed, bounded and unbounded arrays of *any* element type > : sounds yummy to me. > > For a start, you could turn the non-Character items into satellite > data orbitting a Character value? It's a possibility, specially if you use wide characters for 16-bit addressing because 8-bit addressing is clearly too short. But anyway I don't like it because eventually you would have to do memory management and that is precisely one of the things that I want Ada_Arrays to encapsulate, namely in the magical Ada_Arrays.Unbounded.Unbounded_String (Unbounded_Array?) type. (I'm using Google to read/write CLA, but it's too slow. comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org does not seem to be working for me. Anyone can recommend a fix or an alternate gateway? Thanks.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 20:36 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 21:40 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-11-27 22:19 ` Jeff C, 2003-11-28 12:47 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-28 14:41 ` Preben Randhol 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Jeff C, @ 2003-11-27 22:19 UTC (permalink / raw) "M?rio Amado Alves" <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote in message news:17eddf9f.0311271236.2a1ded9f@posting.google.com... > > Why? What is wrong with GMGPL? > > Nothing "wrong", it just isn't commercial. If you don't want to make > money then GMGPL is fine. The basic idea of commercial open source is > that if an (open source) component ends up being part of a lucrative > setup then the authors of the component receive a fair reward. Before Quick..Someone call ACT and tell them that all that money people have been paying them is not for a commercial venture. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 22:19 ` Jeff C, @ 2003-11-28 12:47 ` M?rio Amado Alves 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-28 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw) "Jeff C," <nolongersafeto@userealemailsniff.com> wrote: > > Nothing "wrong", it just isn't commercial. If you don't want to make > > money then GMGPL is fine. The basic idea of commercial open source is > > that if an (open source) component ends up being part of a lucrative > > setup then the authors of the component receive a fair reward. Before > > > Quick..Someone call ACT and tell them that all that money people have been > paying them is not for a commercial venture. Please read my paragraph in full. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-27 20:36 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 21:40 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-11-27 22:19 ` Jeff C, @ 2003-11-28 14:41 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-28 15:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-11-28 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2003-11-27, M?rio Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote: > Nothing "wrong", it just isn't commercial. If you don't want to make > money then GMGPL is fine. The basic idea of commercial open source is > that if an (open source) component ends up being part of a lucrative > setup then the authors of the component receive a fair reward. Yes, exactly, a big fat *IF*. > Before objecting please review the material indexed on the SDC site, > for example my essay Open Source Business Found Parasitic, Bob Leif's > Ada Developers Cooperative License, and the Commented Conditions of > Use of SDC Artifacts. And I suggest we don't discuss the general issue > here (it's OT). You're very welcome to do it on the SDC forum of > course (www.softdevelcoop.org). Well, whatever. I wouldn't touch the library if it has some strange license. If you are talking about a *program* things are different, but a *library*... -- "Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming language." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada_Arrays Project 2003-11-28 14:41 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-11-28 15:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Marius Amado Alves @ 2003-11-28 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: > On 2003-11-27, M?rio Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote: > >>Nothing "wrong", it just isn't commercial. If you don't want to make >>money then GMGPL is fine. The basic idea of commercial open source is >>that if an (open source) component ends up being part of a lucrative >>setup then the authors of the component receive a fair reward. > > Yes, exactly, a big fat *IF*. Yes, exactly, and fat is good in this case: the user only owes when revenue is generated. Please see the discussions. >>Before objecting please review the material indexed on the SDC site, >>for example my essay Open Source Business Found Parasitic, Bob Leif's >>Ada Developers Cooperative License, and the Commented Conditions of >>Use of SDC Artifacts. And I suggest we don't discuss the general issue >>here (it's OT). You're very welcome to do it on the SDC forum of >>course (www.softdevelcoop.org). > > Well, whatever. I wouldn't touch the library if it has some strange > license. If you are talking about a *program* things are different, but > a *library*... I know some users dislike "strange" licences, but this attitude is often irrational. It is in this case. The definition of program vs. library is one of the complex issues aluded. So much so that it is a problem in GPL, and even on the LGPL which was done to overcome that (but strictly did not). Some of us have been trying to solve the problem with the concept of "use of a component". Again, please see the discussions. I won't argue here anymore unless you mark this thread OT and people don't complaint. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-11-27 12:08 Ada_Arrays Project M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 12:55 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-11-27 21:43 ` Nick Roberts 2003-11-28 10:14 ` Rodrigo Garcia ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2003-11-27 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw) M?rio Amado Alves wrote: > I'm entertaining the idea of a generic package Ada_Arrays and children > where Ada_Arrays is like Ada.Strings except the element type is > generic instead of Character. > > Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? > Anybody did it? I think it's the sort of thing that has been done before by lots of people, generally not in a very organised or uniform way. I would guess the biggest problem would be that people would be reluctant to pay for this sort of thing; they would think "Crikey, I could just as easily write that myself," even if they actually were wrong. > I'm considering doing it by program(med) transformation of existing > source-code for Ada.Strings. My first studies indicate semantic > analysis is required, so this might configure an ASIS application. I suggest that much of the interfaces of the Ada.Strings.*_Strings packages are specific to the Character (component) type, and not sensibly applicable to a generic array interface. I think this sort of package would be sailing perilously close to the treacherous waters of the 'containers controversy'. > (I'm also interested in this project as a test case for open source > software licensing. I'd like to release it under a "commercial open > source" license like one of those endorsed by the Software Developers > Cooperative (www.softdevelcoop.org). Specially if done by way of > program transformation from the GPLed GNAT, the licensing of > Ada_Arrays is a complex issue.) Allow me to suggest an alternative project, which I believe has a gap in the market at the moment, and could be commercially attractive. I am not aware of any commercial program at the moment which can convert a standard SVG source file into a suitable image format file (I suggest PNG as the first target to aim at). There is the SVG viewer offered by Adobe, but it has problems (bugs, deviation from the standard, certain standard facilities not supported, slowness/inefficiency), and I'm not sure that it can actually genarate image files anyway. There may be some high-end products taht are very expensive, but if so that seems to leave a gap at the lower-cost end. I think this would be a suitable product to be written in Ada, because it would require little or no platform-specific code, and it would suit Ada's strengths: efficiency and reliability. It would be impossible to accommodate any interactive features, of course, and animation would lead us to the complexities of animated GIFs or MNG files (but might be possible). I understand there are some Ada XML packages available (I'm not sure on what terms), one of which could be used as a starting point for reading the SVG source files. I believe there is an Ada PNG package (again I'm not sure about its availablity). There are further possibilities with conversions between HTML, XSL-FO, PS/EPS/PDF, and other presentation formats. > Anybody interested in collaborating? If you're interested in something like this, Mario, I might be interested in collaborating. It would be important to plan the project carefully. -- Nick Roberts ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-11-27 21:43 ` SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] Nick Roberts @ 2003-11-28 10:14 ` Rodrigo Garcia 2003-11-28 13:20 ` Dr Steve Sangwine 2003-11-28 14:17 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Rodrigo Garcia @ 2003-11-28 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) You already have an open source product for this (in Java): Batik from the Apache Software Foundation. "Another possibility is to use Batik's modules to convert SVG to various formats, such as raster images (JPEG,PNG or Tiff)." More in: http://xml.apache.org/batik/index.html Rodrigo "Nick Roberts" <nick.roberts@acm.org> wrote in message news:bq5r6r$1uos2e$1@ID-25716.news.uni-berlin.de... > M?rio Amado Alves wrote: > > > I'm entertaining the idea of a generic package Ada_Arrays and children > > where Ada_Arrays is like Ada.Strings except the element type is > > generic instead of Character. > > > > Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? > > Anybody did it? > > I think it's the sort of thing that has been done before by lots of people, > generally not in a very organised or uniform way. I would guess the biggest > problem would be that people would be reluctant to pay for this sort of > thing; they would think "Crikey, I could just as easily write that myself," > even if they actually were wrong. > > > I'm considering doing it by program(med) transformation of existing > > source-code for Ada.Strings. My first studies indicate semantic > > analysis is required, so this might configure an ASIS application. > > I suggest that much of the interfaces of the Ada.Strings.*_Strings packages > are specific to the Character (component) type, and not sensibly applicable > to a generic array interface. I think this sort of package would be sailing > perilously close to the treacherous waters of the 'containers controversy'. > > > (I'm also interested in this project as a test case for open source > > software licensing. I'd like to release it under a "commercial open > > source" license like one of those endorsed by the Software Developers > > Cooperative (www.softdevelcoop.org). Specially if done by way of > > program transformation from the GPLed GNAT, the licensing of > > Ada_Arrays is a complex issue.) > > Allow me to suggest an alternative project, which I believe has a gap in > the market at the moment, and could be commercially attractive. > > I am not aware of any commercial program at the moment which can convert a > standard SVG source file into a suitable image format file (I suggest PNG > as the first target to aim at). There is the SVG viewer offered by Adobe, > but it has problems (bugs, deviation from the standard, certain standard > facilities not supported, slowness/inefficiency), and I'm not sure that it > can actually genarate image files anyway. There may be some high-end > products taht are very expensive, but if so that seems to leave a gap at > the lower-cost end. > > I think this would be a suitable product to be written in Ada, because it > would require little or no platform-specific code, and it would suit Ada's > strengths: efficiency and reliability. It would be impossible to > accommodate any interactive features, of course, and animation would lead > us to the complexities of animated GIFs or MNG files (but might be possible). > > I understand there are some Ada XML packages available (I'm not sure on > what terms), one of which could be used as a starting point for reading the > SVG source files. I believe there is an Ada PNG package (again I'm not sure > about its availablity). > > There are further possibilities with conversions between HTML, XSL-FO, > PS/EPS/PDF, and other presentation formats. > > > Anybody interested in collaborating? > > If you're interested in something like this, Mario, I might be interested > in collaborating. It would be important to plan the project carefully. > > -- > Nick Roberts > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-11-27 21:43 ` SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] Nick Roberts 2003-11-28 10:14 ` Rodrigo Garcia @ 2003-11-28 13:20 ` Dr Steve Sangwine 2003-12-01 13:09 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-28 14:17 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Dr Steve Sangwine @ 2003-11-28 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 21:43:45 +0000, Nick Roberts <nick.roberts@acm.org> wrote: >M?rio Amado Alves wrote: > >> I'm entertaining the idea of a generic package Ada_Arrays and children >> where Ada_Arrays is like Ada.Strings except the element type is >> generic instead of Character. >> >> Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? >> Anybody did it? .................... > >Allow me to suggest an alternative project, which I believe has a gap in >the market at the moment, and could be commercially attractive. > .................. >I understand there are some Ada XML packages available (I'm not sure on >what terms), one of which could be used as a starting point for reading the >SVG source files. I believe there is an Ada PNG package (again I'm not sure >about its availablity). Indeed there is an Ada PNG package, called PNG_IO. I wrote it, and it is GPL Open Source. The website is: http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~sjs/png_io/png_io.html > >There are further possibilities with conversions between HTML, XSL-FO, >PS/EPS/PDF, and other presentation formats. > > > Anybody interested in collaborating? > >If you're interested in something like this, Mario, I might be interested >in collaborating. It would be important to plan the project carefully. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-11-28 13:20 ` Dr Steve Sangwine @ 2003-12-01 13:09 ` Preben Randhol 2003-12-01 20:00 ` Simon Wright 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-12-01 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2003-11-28, Dr Steve Sangwine <sjs@essex.ac.uk> wrote: > > Indeed there is an Ada PNG package, called PNG_IO. I wrote it, and it > is GPL Open Source. The website is: > http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~sjs/png_io/png_io.html Not GMGPL? -- "Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming language." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-12-01 13:09 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-12-01 20:00 ` Simon Wright 2003-12-03 19:26 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Simon Wright @ 2003-12-01 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> writes: > On 2003-11-28, Dr Steve Sangwine <sjs@essex.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > Indeed there is an Ada PNG package, called PNG_IO. I wrote it, and it > > is GPL Open Source. The website is: > > http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~sjs/png_io/png_io.html > > Not GMGPL? I saw that, but it's a university that has decided to allow the software to be released under the GPL .. who knows if it's a deliberate decision to go GPL or just the state of play on the day .. -- Simon Wright 100% Ada, no bugs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-12-01 20:00 ` Simon Wright @ 2003-12-03 19:26 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-12-03 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2003-12-01, Simon Wright <simon@pushface.org> wrote: > Preben Randhol <randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> writes: > >> On 2003-11-28, Dr Steve Sangwine <sjs@essex.ac.uk> wrote: >> > >> > Indeed there is an Ada PNG package, called PNG_IO. I wrote it, and it >> > is GPL Open Source. The website is: >> > http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~sjs/png_io/png_io.html >> >> Not GMGPL? > > I saw that, but it's a university that has decided to allow the > software to be released under the GPL .. who knows if it's a > deliberate decision to go GPL or just the state of play on the day .. Would still be GPL, only a bit looser :-) Well, I guess it isn't to hard to make a new binding. -- "Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming language." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] 2003-11-27 21:43 ` SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] Nick Roberts 2003-11-28 10:14 ` Rodrigo Garcia 2003-11-28 13:20 ` Dr Steve Sangwine @ 2003-11-28 14:17 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: M?rio Amado Alves @ 2003-11-28 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw) > > I'm entertaining the idea of a generic package Ada_Arrays and children > > where Ada_Arrays is like Ada.Strings except the element type is > > generic instead of Character. > > > > Anybody besides me foresees the great usefulness of Ada_Arrays? > > Anybody did it? > > I think it's the sort of thing that has been done before by lots of people, > generally not in a very organised or uniform way. I would guess the biggest > problem would be that people would be reluctant to pay for this sort of > thing; they would think "Crikey, I could just as easily write that myself," > even if they actually were wrong. I would be willing to pay--under the referenced conditions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-12-03 19:26 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 16+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-11-27 12:08 Ada_Arrays Project M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 12:55 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-27 20:36 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 21:40 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-11-28 14:07 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-27 22:19 ` Jeff C, 2003-11-28 12:47 ` M?rio Amado Alves 2003-11-28 14:41 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-28 15:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 2003-11-27 21:43 ` SVG to PNG [was: Ada_Arrays Project] Nick Roberts 2003-11-28 10:14 ` Rodrigo Garcia 2003-11-28 13:20 ` Dr Steve Sangwine 2003-12-01 13:09 ` Preben Randhol 2003-12-01 20:00 ` Simon Wright 2003-12-03 19:26 ` Preben Randhol 2003-11-28 14:17 ` M?rio Amado Alves
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