ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Arnaud Charlet]

Ada Core Technologies and ACT Europe are pleased to announce the release
of GPS 1.4.0, the GNAT Programming System IDE, including binaries for the
GNU/Linux, Solaris and Windows platforms.

Designed by programmers for programmers, the GPS IDE integrates the GNAT
Ada 95 tools within a single visual development environment. GPS is Free
Software. This version is intended for use in academic and Free Software
projects.

GPS is available at http://libre.act-europe.fr/gps

New features include, among other things:

- Clickable CVS annotations: you can now click on CVS annotations to jump
  directly to the corresponding changelog in the history revision of the file.

- Improvements in the entity browser for C and C++

- Browsers can be exported as png images

- Ability to derive a language from another language in xml custom files

- Contextual menus no longer show xref entries when no xref
  information is available

- Possibility to see the differences between the current file and a specified
  VCS revision.

- It is now possible to interrupt background tasks using the task manager, or
  the contextual menus on the progress bars.

- When defining custom actions, the output of a shell command can now be
  used to launch an external command (for instance to query switches from the
  project first).

- Compilation output is highlighted in different colors based on the type of
  the error (Error/Warning/Style)

- Support for Ada, C and C++ switches is now defined through XML files
  These files can be modified to add more switches

- New customization capabilities

- Support for preprocessor options in syntax checking

- Improved MDI

- Ability to reformat more Ada construct

- Auto casing of Ada reserved words and identifiers

- Navigation to the next/previous subprogram and start/end of statement

- New casing mode "Smart Mixed"

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Arnaud Charlet wrote:
> Designed by programmers for programmers

For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-20, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Arnaud Charlet wrote:
>> Designed by programmers for programmers
>
> For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)
>

Why?

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> On 2003-11-20, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
>>Arnaud Charlet wrote:
>>>Designed by programmers for programmers
>>For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)
> Why?

"Designed by programmers" means that its interface
will look hideous. "Designed for programmers" means
that its target audience won't realize it.

I'm just kidding, of course. I think :-)

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-20, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Preben Randhol wrote:
>> On 2003-11-20, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
>>>Arnaud Charlet wrote:
>>>>Designed by programmers for programmers
>>>For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)
>> Why?
>
> "Designed by programmers" means that its interface
> will look hideous. "Designed for programmers" means
> that its target audience won't realize it.
>
> I'm just kidding, of course. I think :-)

I see :-)

I would be frightened if it said:

Designed by programs for programmers

Then your points can be valid.

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

>Arnaud Charlet wrote:
>> Designed by programmers for programmers
>
>For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)

Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)


Vinzent.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[christoph.grein]

From: "Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler" <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com>
> 
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
> >Arnaud Charlet wrote:
> >> Designed by programmers for programmers
> >
> >For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)
> 
> Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)

No, "Designed by programmers for managers", then it's fool-proof :-)

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[René Möhring]

christoph.grein@eurocopter.com wrote:
> From: "Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler" <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com>
>> 
>> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>> 
>> >Arnaud Charlet wrote:
>> >> Designed by programmers for programmers
>> >
>> >For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)
>> 
>> Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)
>
> No, "Designed by programmers for managers", then it's fool-proof :-)

Nothing will ever be fool-proof.  If you created something fool-proof
evolution would create e better fool. :-)

-- 
I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally!

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:10:51 +0100, Ren� M�hring <myspammail1@gmx.de>
wrote:

>christoph.grein@eurocopter.com wrote:
>> From: "Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler" <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com>
>>> 
>>> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>>> 
>>> >Arnaud Charlet wrote:
>>> >> Designed by programmers for programmers
>>> >
>>> >For some reason, I suddenly feel frightened :-)
>>> 
>>> Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)
>>
>> No, "Designed by programmers for managers", then it's fool-proof :-)
>
>Nothing will ever be fool-proof.  If you created something fool-proof
>evolution would create e better fool. :-)

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying
to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
   -- Rich Cook

A less general consequence of the above:

"The manager turned and asked the inventor of the modem why he wants
to build two prototypes ..."
   -- Dirk Detering

--
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-21, Dmitry A Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
> "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
> build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying
> to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
>    -- Rich Cook

Well, I would also claim that software designed for idiots breed more of
them.


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
> Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)

In all seriousness, I would like to see "Designed by user interface
specialists, after extensive study of existing systems and observation
and interviews of programmers as they do their daily work."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

>Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
>> Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)
>
>In all seriousness, I would like to see "Designed by user interface
>specialists, after extensive study of existing systems and observation
>and interviews of programmers as they do their daily work."

Hmm. Yes, I see your point.

So as a suggestion for the next release: what I still miss in *all*
environments I have seen so far is the built-in coffee machine.

*That* would be an improvement.


Vinzent.

-- 
np: Nightwish - Feel For You

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[René Möhring]

Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>>Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
>>> Would you rather hear "Designed by managers for programmers"? ;-)
>>
>>In all seriousness, I would like to see "Designed by user interface
>>specialists, after extensive study of existing systems and observation
>>and interviews of programmers as they do their daily work."
>
> Hmm. Yes, I see your point.
>
> So as a suggestion for the next release: what I still miss in *all*
> environments I have seen so far is the built-in coffee machine.
>
> *That* would be an improvement.

Environments with Java support already exist. SCNR

-- 
I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally!

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler]

René Möhring wrote:

>Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
>>
>> So as a suggestion for the next release: what I still miss in *all*
>> environments I have seen so far is the built-in coffee machine.
>>
>> *That* would be an improvement.
>
>Environments with Java support already exist. SCNR

Java ain't coffee. Hmm, or maybe it's just the caffein-reduced
version. CNRE.


Vinzent.

-- 
np: Nightwish - Ever Dream

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Stephane Richard]

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We're developers guys,  putting a coffee machine in a programming
environment is a design issue ;-).

-- 
St�phane Richard
"Ada World" Webmaster
http://www.adaworld.com


"Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler" <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote in message
news:bplb0h$1q5nmr$1@ID-175126.news.uni-berlin.de...
Ren� M�hring wrote:

>Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
>>
>> So as a suggestion for the next release: what I still miss in *all*
>> environments I have seen so far is the built-in coffee machine.
>>
>> *That* would be an improvement.
>
>Environments with Java support already exist. SCNR

Java ain't coffee. Hmm, or maybe it's just the caffein-reduced
version. CNRE.


Vinzent.

-- 
np: Nightwish - Ever Dream

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-21, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> In all seriousness, I would like to see "Designed by user interface
> specialists, after extensive study of existing systems and observation
> and interviews of programmers as they do their daily work."

And who is more suited than a programmer? The major problem for much of
software nowadays is that is developed by people not knowing or
understanding the intended usage of the program.


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> And who is more suited than a programmer? The major problem for much of
> software nowadays is that is developed by people not knowing or
> understanding the intended usage of the program.

<http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo/Engineering/iarchitect/shame.htm>

People who pound nails don't necessarily know how to design a good hammer.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-21, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
>
><http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo/Engineering/iarchitect/shame.htm>

And how has this to do with anything? There is crappy design all over
the place, but much of this has to do with the designers (or
programmers) not understanding the thinking of the user. If the
programmer is the user the result should be much better.

> People who pound nails don't necessarily know how to design a good hammer.

Perhaps not, but much more know how than a person who has never held a
hammer.


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Marin David Condic]

It looks interesting so far, but I had an installation problem:

The unzip wanted to create a file in the directory path: 
C:\GPS\share\gps\customize but the prior release seemed to have an XML 
file in C:\GPS\share\gps called "customize" so it was failing to create 
the new files where it wanted them. A quick rename of "customize" to 
"customize-old" and life got good again with no apparent impact to 
starting up GPS. It may take a while to discover what was originally 
using the "customize" file and is now broke. Hopefully, it was something 
the newer version doesn't need.

Has anyone else encountered this or is it a problem unique to my 
installation? (Windows, PC platform, in case that wasn't clear)

MDC

Arnaud Charlet wrote:
> Ada Core Technologies and ACT Europe are pleased to announce the release
> of GPS 1.4.0, the GNAT Programming System IDE, including binaries for the
> GNU/Linux, Solaris and Windows platforms.

-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Trying is the first step towards failure."
         --  Homer Simpson

======================================================================

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
 > If the programmer is the user the result should be much better.

No. There is a reason that people who are redesigning their homes
hire an interior decorator. Users have a set of things that they
want their environment to contain. Arranging these things in an
aesthetic and pleasing manner is a job for a specialist. All those
hall of shame designs were done by programmers trying their best to
fulfill a set of requirements.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Stephane Richard]

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Got an example of a couple Hall of Shame designs?

-- 
St�phane Richard
"Ada World" Webmaster
http://www.adaworld.com


"Hyman Rosen" <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote in message
news:ILUvb.5022$7%4.1412@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> Preben Randhol wrote:
>  > If the programmer is the user the result should be much better.
>
> No. There is a reason that people who are redesigning their homes
> hire an interior decorator. Users have a set of things that they
> want their environment to contain. Arranging these things in an
> aesthetic and pleasing manner is a job for a specialist. All those
> hall of shame designs were done by programmers trying their best to
> fulfill a set of requirements.
>

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Stephane Richard wrote:
> Got an example of a couple Hall of Shame designs?

I posted the link two messages up:
<http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo/Engineering/iarchitect/shame.htm>

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-23, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Preben Randhol wrote:
> > If the programmer is the user the result should be much better.
>
> No. There is a reason that people who are redesigning their homes
> hire an interior decorator. 

Yea, they have too much money.

> Users have a set of things that they want their environment to
> contain. Arranging these things in an aesthetic and pleasing manner is
> a job for a specialist. All those hall of shame designs were done by
> programmers trying their best to fulfill a set of requirements.

Who is the best equipped for designing the features of software for
programmers? A software decorator who knows how to spell compiler, but
not what it is?


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Georg Bauhaus]

Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote:
: 
: So as a suggestion for the next release: what I still miss in *all*
: environments I have seen so far is the built-in coffee machine.
: 
: *That* would be an improvement.

How far is it from your desk to the coffee machine?
Do modern IDEs give us too little time to take a refreshing walk to the
next coffee source?

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-23, Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote:
> How far is it from your desk to the coffee machine?
> Do modern IDEs give us too little time to take a refreshing walk to the
> next coffee source?

I remember an old review article about the pentium processor. The author
had only one complaint and that was that he now could take less
coffebreaks while waiting for the machine to compile his program ;-)

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Who is the best equipped for designing the features of software for
> programmers? A software decorator who knows how to spell compiler, but
> not what it is?

You are making the error of equating features with interface.
Imagine it this way. Suppose we took your favorite IDE and
redistributed all the key assignments or menu item locations
randomly. All the features would still be present, but would
you be as pleased with it?

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-23, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Preben Randhol wrote:
>> Who is the best equipped for designing the features of software for
>> programmers? A software decorator who knows how to spell compiler, but
>> not what it is?
>
> You are making the error of equating features with interface.

I'm not making an error. You wanted a UI expert to design the IDE
if I recall. I would rather have better and useful features based on the
experience of the programmers.

Your error is that you think user friendly is an absolute term. LaTeX is
user friendly for me, but Word might be more userfriendly for your, for
example. If you want to make something user friendly you need to define
the target audience and you need to be able to understand how they work.


> Imagine it this way. Suppose we took your favorite IDE and
> redistributed all the key assignments or menu item locations
> randomly. All the features would still be present, but would
> you be as pleased with it?

No, but it has nothing to do with the discussion either. 



-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> I'm not making an error. You wanted a UI expert to design the IDE
> if I recall. I would rather have better and useful features based on the
> experience of the programmers.

I wanted the UI expert to design the interface in accordance with
the useful features communicated to him by the programmers, using
his expertise in interface design to arrange those features in a
pleasing and harmonious whole.

> Your error is that you think user friendly is an absolute term. LaTeX is
> user friendly for me, but Word might be more userfriendly for your, for
> example. If you want to make something user friendly you need to define
> the target audience and you need to be able to understand how they work.

Exactly. And how often does the programmer hammering out his program do that?
Microsoft has user interface labs where the observe people using Word and
their other programs, and they base improvements to the interface using
these observations.

> No, but it has nothing to do with the discussion either. 

It most certainly does. You are arguing that am interface designed by a
UI expert will lack essential features. I am arguing that the presence
of features is in a sense orthogonal to the interface.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Stephane Richard]

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"Dennis Lee Bieber" <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:pvo791-> >
>         There's an easy solution for that... His first program should have
> been a cpu intensive do-nothing that runs at startup, at a slightly
> higher than normal priority, and avoids relinquishing the cpu as much
> as possible <G>
>

Or Run it Under Windows ME or less ;-=)

-- 
St�phane Richard
"Ada World" Webmaster
http://www.adaworld.com

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 04:52:19 GMT, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Stephane Richard fed this fish to the penguins on Sunday 23 November 
>2003 16:56 pm:
>
>> Or Run it Under Windows ME or less ;-=)
>
>        Don't be so sure... I ran a silly test program a few days ago, at work 
>(mainly to see if the "performance timer" was available on a GFE 
>laptop).
>
>        The laptop:     ~250MHz, W98se
>        The desktop:    ~450+MHz, W2K
>
>        Same program, performing 1000 repetitions of Sleep(1)
>
>        Based upon the performance time count/frequency the slow laptop took 
>just under 5 seconds. The W2K took 15 seconds.
>
>        Okay, the W2K did have the corporate LAN connection, but I didn't even 
>touch the mouse during the runs...

You should use timeBeginPeriod to ensure that both systems have same
time slicing. Your desktop might have it set at 10ms (the default on
the most of Win32). This would cause each Sleep(1) turning to
Sleep(10).

Anyway scheduling under Windows is indeed stra-a-ange. (:-))

--
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:

>Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote:
>: 
>: So as a suggestion for the next release: what I still miss in *all*
>: environments I have seen so far is the built-in coffee machine.
>: 
>: *That* would be an improvement.
>
>How far is it from your desk to the coffee machine?

Currently less than 10 meters. :)

>Do modern IDEs give us too little time to take a refreshing walk to the
>next coffee source?

Hehe, I'm lazy. And sometimes I don't want a break, I just want a
coffee. :-)


Vinzent.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

>Microsoft has user interface labs where the observe people using Word and
>their other programs, and they base improvements to the interface using
>these observations.

I was supporting your point until now.

But now you are really telling me that Microsoft hires *experts* to
come up with a user interface that's more harder to use in each new
release because every function was optimized for improved usage and
just went to another sub-sub-menu in a redesign?

If that's what those experts do... no thanks.


Vinzent.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-23, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Exactly. And how often does the programmer hammering out his program do that?
> Microsoft has user interface labs where the observe people using Word and
> their other programs, and they base improvements to the interface using
> these observations.

And if you look at the Hall of Shames out there, you will see that much
of it comes from Microsoft.

At any rate this is why we have:

   http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
   http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/

>> No, but it has nothing to do with the discussion either. 
>
> It most certainly does. You are arguing that am interface designed by a
> UI expert will lack essential features. I am arguing that the presence
> of features is in a sense orthogonal to the interface.

No I'm arguing that he will lack the understanding of the usage of the
program. Say you are making a program for some IT department in a
company. You design it very nice and the UI designer makes the GUI very
nice and spiffy. Then the user who is going to do a change on the status
of 200 employees sits and curses because he has to click with his mouse
all day to get the job done instead of simply running a script or some
such. The example is a bit extrem, but it brings out my point and that
is that it is the user who knows where the bottlenecks and annoyances
are. If the developer IS a user too he should be able to make a much
better program.


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Dale Stanbrough]

Preben Randhol wrote:


> No I'm arguing that he will lack the understanding of the usage of the
> program. Say you are making a program for some IT department in a
> company. You design it very nice and the UI designer makes the GUI very
> nice and spiffy. Then the user who is going to do a change on the status
> of 200 employees sits and curses because he has to click with his mouse
> all day to get the job done instead of simply running a script or some
> such. The example is a bit extrem, but it brings out my point and that
> is that it is the user who knows where the bottlenecks and annoyances
> are. If the developer IS a user too he should be able to make a much
> better program.


I think people dismiss too easily the skills and professionalism of
other workers; putting at naught their training and experience.

I often see engineers who -think- they don't need professional 
programmers because -they- can program a small C program.
One such program I saw had -no- indenting at all. All column 1
code!

You are doing much the same to GUI people. No one was saying that
a GUI designer sits in isolation, weaving their magic without 
consulting anyone. Just as we would not expect a systems analyst
to do a requirements without the customer.

The GUI designer will sit -with- a programmer (the customer) and
work with him/her, each bringing their own insights and skills to
the problem at hand. 

To think that the programmer could replace the GUI designer is
like an automotive engineer dismissing a car designer, or a 
fruit vendor dismissing a chef.

Dale

-- 
dstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-24, Dale Stanbrough <MrNoSpam@bigpoop.net.au> wrote:
> I think people dismiss too easily the skills and professionalism of
> other workers; putting at naught their training and experience.
>
> I often see engineers who -think- they don't need professional 
> programmers because -they- can program a small C program.
> One such program I saw had -no- indenting at all. All column 1
> code!
>
> You are doing much the same to GUI people. No one was saying that
> a GUI designer sits in isolation, weaving their magic without 
> consulting anyone. Just as we would not expect a systems analyst
> to do a requirements without the customer.
>
> The GUI designer will sit -with- a programmer (the customer) and
> work with him/her, each bringing their own insights and skills to
> the problem at hand. 
>
> To think that the programmer could replace the GUI designer is
> like an automotive engineer dismissing a car designer, or a 
> fruit vendor dismissing a chef.
>

Again, you don't get my point.

Say I'm making a program for some thermodynamical calculations. I may
use the program to do calculations for my experiments. It all works fine
and I'm content. Then somebody else wants to do calculations on a bigger
system and using my program would require a lot of calculations before
one get the final answer. These people would probably prefer that one
added features to the program so one can define a more complex system
and the program handles all the intermediat calculations and then just
spits out the result. It doesn't help so much if one rearrange the
buttons and menus of the GUI if the underlying features are not there. 

Now to the origin. I said I am happy that programmers have made an IDE
for programmers, as then I will expect that most features that saves the
programmer time are included due to the experience. Hyman wanted IDE
made by GUI experts. I would not be happy with a programmer making me a
program to do thermodynamic calculations if he knows nothing about how I
do my job as he wouldn't have the foggiest idea about what will help me
and what will hinder me. But perhaps this person you describe as GUI
expert is the go-between. If so what is the GUI? Is it general user
interface or graphical user interface etc...? In many cases the
graphical UI is not appropriate.  Incidentally I read in the newspaper
today that out of 800 000 people that bring part or the whole day in
front of a computer some 20 000 are at home and cannot work because of
the "mouse sickness". Don't know what it is called in English, but the
problem one can get from using the computer mouse all day thanks to the
wonderful design of say Microsoft and other major companies with GUI
experts.

I use vim as my IDE and I'm happy with it as it lets me use the keyboard
a lot and it saves me time too due to the nice features it has (such as
macros and word completion). However a GUI expert wouldn't have helped
so much improving it IMHO.

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
> But now you are really telling me that Microsoft hires *experts* to
> come up with a user interface that's more harder to use in each new
> release because every function was optimized for improved usage and
> just went to another sub-sub-menu in a redesign?

And went to a toolbar, which you can selectively make visible,
so that the functions you need are available with the click of
a single button.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-24, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
>> But now you are really telling me that Microsoft hires *experts* to
>> come up with a user interface that's more harder to use in each new
>> release because every function was optimized for improved usage and
>> just went to another sub-sub-menu in a redesign?
>
> And went to a toolbar, which you can selectively make visible,
> so that the functions you need are available with the click of
> a single button.

Unfortunately a mouse button though.


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> wrote:
: On 2003-11-24, Dale Stanbrough <MrNoSpam@bigpoop.net.au> wrote:
:> I think people dismiss too easily the skills and professionalism of
:> other workers; putting at naught their training and experience.

:>  No one was saying that
:> a GUI designer sits in isolation, weaving their magic without 
:> consulting anyone. Just as we would not expect a systems analyst
:> to do a requirements without the customer.

So, yes,
:  this person you describe as GUI
: expert is the go-between.


: Don't know what it is called in English, but the
: problem one can get from using the computer mouse all day thanks to the
: wonderful design of say Microsoft and other major companies with GUI
: experts.

It seems that the more significant factor in explanation is
how well the mouse's design fits the person's hand, and whether
or not the table is at a proper height etc.  If you think of
people playing computer games for many hours, can "mouse sickness"
really be attributed to buttons in the user interface?

That aside, "Designed by Xs for Xs" is likely from the marketing
department I'd say :-)  There are programmers who have seen and used
user interfaces different from typical Windows' MDI, for example Plan 9
users. But the Plan 9 user interface is not popular, just like some
programming languages, and so people have to make different
announcements addressing the herd :-)

Georg

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Unfortunately a mouse button though.

Yes, I can see that I want *you* designing my interface.

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-24, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
> Preben Randhol wrote:
>> Unfortunately a mouse button though.
>
> Yes, I can see that I want *you* designing my interface.

Hehehe. Allergic to the keyboard, ei? ;-) 

Small example:

   x^2 = S_i a_i^0.5 + b_i

writing this in Word is a pain when you use the mouse to click on the
super and subscript symbols.

If one on the other hand can press a shortcut f.eks _ or __ or something
and then get the subscript mode and write i and continue it is much
faster and convenient. Just try wrinting some 100 equations in Word and
you'll see :-)


-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: ANNOUNCE: GNAT Programming System 1.4.0 release

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Hehehe. Allergic to the keyboard, ei? ;-)

No, not at all.

> Small example:
>    x^2 = S_i a_i^0.5 + b_i
> writing this in Word is a pain when you use the mouse to click on the
> super and subscript symbols.
> 
> If one on the other hand can press a shortcut f.eks _ or __ or something
> and then get the subscript mode and write i and continue it is much
> faster and convenient. Just try wrinting some 100 equations in Word and
> you'll see :-)

Are you not aware that Word *has* keyboard shortcuts for its equation
editor? This is the point of a good user interface. It makes all of its
features visible so that the occasional user can do what is needed, and
provides ways for the expert user to work quickly.