Re: Ada packages and/on web pages (was Re: GPGME (was Re: GnuPG binding?))

[Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org>]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
> 
> (This text is drifting towards "writing Ada programs compared to
> writing web pages", among other things.)

I think we are talking around ourselfs :-)

>: not sure I understand what you mean with "Google establishes useful
>: links between".
> 
> If the search for "A +B" gives results r(1..4), then there
> might be a logical link between the r(k)s, because they match the
> same search pattern.

> makes 2 tasks. In your web pages, you might have 
> task "About us",
> task "the famous software library"
> task "the CI CSSs"

what about

   task "software library nobody knows of yet"

> In order to be competition for sourceforge, yes.
> Plus if I think that for example a mailinglist is better than
> group reply with permission. (Don't get me wrong, I have had
> fun setting up and using a SmartList.)

Group reply?
 
> Plus if I wanted to copy someone's machanisms. For example, I prefer
> PRCS to CVS. At one time, we have been able to provide access to
> a development system (non-intranet) via SSH, which has been much more
> fun and a lot more flexible than anonymous CVS. I can do it if I
> have my own Ada component library server.

Sure but you don't get this if the alternative is to get a free web-page
at some web-hotel.

> See the posting by Robert Eachus on 16th of June, for coupling.
> Say you have three sets of packages in your program,
> and you have three subdirectories (e.g.) in your "web space",
> by analogy.
> Chances are that these three items have internal and external
> relations, in both cases.
> (calling, type use, instantiations, imports, ... in the Ada case,
> links, quotes, styles, illustrations, ... in the web case.)
> For example, a unit might depend on another unit.
> You add a with clause.
> A web page might assume required knowledge of subject X.
> You add a link to another page (in another subdirectory, e.g.)
> introducing subject X.

Yes, but I still don't understand why you feel you cannot do this at
sourceforge.

> All three are also hopefully centered around some common topic.
> You can have coherent Ada packages, and coherent web pages
> or subdirectories thereof.

Sure and sourceforge is a coherent collections of web pages.

> Meyer in OOSC2, Ch 22:
> "All the features of a class must pertain to a single, well-identified
> abstraction." (I think this is recommended for clusters, too.)
> The same should be true of web pages, I think, and I always find myself
> distracted by ads, links to other things that they think I should

Use privoxy and ads go away :-) 

> be interested in, but am not, and more. If you, as author of a web page,
> are allowed to follow the "single topic" principle, good.
> The possibility is guaranteed if you are your own "web masters",
> because there are no defaults and requirements other than your
> own (lawful) ones.

Only if you own the server. Consider not every hobbyist out there have
the money to keep web-sites alive. Just look at the problem with AdaHome
and that this pops up first in Google

> Uhm, sourceforge has been suggested, iirc, to circumvent setting
> up pages and links for download, and taking care of them. That is,
> not having to set up your own homepage, download area, etc.

No. sf.net gives you a lot of tools, but you still *should* setup your
homepage. Just look at http://gnade.sf.net to see what I mean.

> I wanted to say, mainly, that it might be better if people make an
> effort at both producing good software, and also at producing an
> accessible web page that sticks to the subject, which is their software,
> and to really related subjects. If that can be done on sourceforge
> (as it can, to some extent, see GNADE (though I am currently getting
> operation timed out for the home page)), then so be it.

OK now I think we are agreeing :-)

> And if someone has the time to do it there, and if there is no
> risk of loosing anything that you do not want to loose (rights,
> the connection, ...), then so be it.

Time to do it there should equal time to do it somewhere else I would
imagine.
> The whole point of good hyperlinking is that you won't have to
> do a search, because the page is linked in context :-)

But that is what I am saying. Use freshmeat, adapower, adaic, yahoo and
register the homepage of your software so one can easily find it. But
you said that was careless, which I do not understand at all.

>: I really don't understand why registering your homepage at freshmeat of
>: yahoo or adapower is careless?
> 
> I didn't mean this, I have failed at saying that a freshmeat
> centered network is not the solution I would prefer to a solution
> where people take care of linking their well-written contributions
> to useful information. One emphasis is on taking care.

But I still don't understand how you think this is feasible. Say
tomorrow I want to start planning a program that can encrypt/decrypt
streams. So I naturally wants to see if somebody else already has done
this as a library I can use. So then I should go to my own homepage as
this would be my starting point. Go to Links click adapower and then
look at adapower. Now if person X in say France has made a library but
it is no link from adapower I don't get any further there. So then I'll
have to try yahoo or google.

> Look at how this works with component libraries in c.l.ada.
> We see some of their authors discussing aspects of their
> products. (Thanks for this, BTW!) On the other hand, lack of
> documentation is mentioned every now and then. Now imagine a
> situation where authors put their thoughts and arguments right
> into web pages.  Arguments could actually contain links from pro
> to con pages (perhaps not "deep down" in type descriptions, but in
> introductory or prefatory notes). This might require cooperation,
> and abiding by http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/

But we also see: "A link to the homepage of Libaray Z would be nice"

> Effect: Once you are hooked into the Ada components web, you can
> easily browse one library's documentation, and also move from one
> library to the other. (This internal and external linking is one
> reason why I was referring to coherent and coupled software modules,
> I think.)

OK so you are talking about making an Adaforge.net? 

Why I like sourceforge/savannah:

   * Gives a familiar web-pages, but also you can make your own.
   * Has CVS, bugtracking, mailings and ability to work on code as
     a team.
   * Easy to find the software.
   * Pages doesn't disappear because somebody moved or stop programming
     a library or program. You can get software not updated from say
     2000 and if the license permit develope it further yourself.
   * You have Foundaries (should be an Ada too)
   * Far better than a home-made page at a web-hotel with tons of
     banner ads to keep it gratis.
   * You get an easy URL. Project.sf.net
   * Easy to find related Ada libraries (by going to Programming Language
     and Ada)

What I don't like:

   * Legal restrictions. (?) not sure how the status is now.
   * Political changes. (Say USA shut down its connections to certain
     countries)
   * If you want to develop the software in a Cathedral way it is
     nicer to have your own page.
   * One place: Less secure.
   * One place: Many timeouts.

So I considere sourceforge, savannah a more suitable place if you do not
have your own server, or if the alternative is a web-hotel. If you do
have your own web-space which will be stable for years to come you use
this, but you register your links in places like freshmeat, adapower,
adaic, yahoo etc.. so that peolpe find them easily. If you make a
binding to a C library please get them to link to your binding.

But the most annoying thing is the death of web-pages and that this
results in the loss of software.

-- 
Preben Randhol -------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/Ada95 --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�