ada loops

ada loops

[Roman V. Isaev]

I've got bitten by this (code was translated from pascal by p2ada, so 
please don't bash using goto):

      for Ijk in 1 .. 40 loop
         Sss:=Fnmis-Si(Ijk);
         if  Sss<0.0 then
            goto Label_1;
         end if;
      end loop; --  IJK
      <<Label_1>>    null;

Before the loop Ijk is 0, after the loop Ijk is still 0. Huh? Why? I 
replaced Ijk with temp variable and put Ijk := temp before goto and 
it solved the problem, but why we can't have final value when we break
out of the loop? What's the logic behind this language behaviour?

Also when I try to debug this in GVD I can see Ijk variable, but not Sss 
(it's a global variable described in outer procedure). I see following
message in the bottom window:

(gdb) print Sss
Cannot access memory at address 0x24803ec

How to look up these variables?

Re: ada loops

[Bill Findlay]

On 30/5/03 16:44, in article
d3ba4d4c.0305300744.520de992@posting.google.com, "Roman V. Isaev"
<rm@gunlab.com.ru> wrote:

> I've got bitten by this (code was translated from pascal by p2ada, so
> please don't bash using goto):
> 
>     for Ijk in 1 .. 40 loop
>        Sss:=Fnmis-Si(Ijk);
>        if  Sss<0.0 then
>           goto Label_1;
>        end if;
>     end loop; --  IJK
>     <<Label_1>>    null;
> 
> Before the loop Ijk is 0, after the loop Ijk is still 0. Huh? Why? I
> replaced Ijk with temp variable and put Ijk := temp before goto and
> it solved the problem, but why we can't have final value when we break
> out of the loop? What's the logic behind this language behaviour?

P2Ada has mis-translated your Pascal program.
In Pascal, the Ijk variable was used and updated by the Pascal for loop.
In Ada, loop-controlled "variables" are actually local constants of the loop
body. Thus your (mis-)translated code has TWO objects called Ijk: the one
appearing outside the loop, and declared by you; and the one appearing
inside the loop and declared by the loop command.

-- 
Bill-Findlay chez blue-yonder.co.uk ("-" => "")

Re: ada loops

[Robert A Duff]

rm@gunlab.com.ru (Roman V. Isaev) writes:

> I've got bitten by this (code was translated from pascal by p2ada, so 
> please don't bash using goto):
> 
>       for Ijk in 1 .. 40 loop
>          Sss:=Fnmis-Si(Ijk);
>          if  Sss<0.0 then
>             goto Label_1;
>          end if;
>       end loop; --  IJK
>       <<Label_1>>    null;
>
> Before the loop Ijk is 0, after the loop Ijk is still 0. Huh? Why?

Ijk does not even exist before or after the loop -- the "for Ijk"
*declares* it.  This is different from the way Pascal works.

You didn't show your whole example, but I guess you declared another
variable called Ijk outside the loop, initialized it to 0, and then
never modified it again.

A good Ada compiler will warn you about this situation, presuming you
turn on warnings.

IMHO, hiding is evil.  If I were the boss, the inner Ijk would not hide
the outer one, and the attempted reference to the inner one would be
ambiguous and therefore illegal.

>... I 
> replaced Ijk with temp variable and put Ijk := temp before goto and 
> it solved the problem, but why we can't have final value when we break
> out of the loop? What's the logic behind this language behaviour?

So I can be constant inside the loop.  The way to think of it is that a
new constant called I is created and destroyed *each* time through the
loop.

But as you can see, it backfires if you're used to the way Pascal works.

Actually, doesn't the Pascal rule say that the value of I is *undefined*
after a for loop?  It's been a long time since I used Pascal...

> Also when I try to debug this in GVD I can see Ijk variable, but not Sss 
> (it's a global variable described in outer procedure). I see following
> message in the bottom window:
> 
> (gdb) print Sss
> Cannot access memory at address 0x24803ec
> 
> How to look up these variables?

I see that sort of thing all the time from gdb.  I don't know what you
can do, except complain to your compiler vendor.

- Bob

Re: ada loops

[Bill Findlay]

On 30/5/03 17:17, in article wcc1xyg9zoa.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com, "Robert A
Duff" <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote:
> 
> Actually, doesn't the Pascal rule say that the value of I is *undefined*
> after a for loop?  It's been a long time since I used Pascal...

The controlled variable is undefined on exhaustion of the iteration range.

-- 
Bill-Findlay chez blue-yonder.co.uk ("-" => "")

Re: ada loops

[Bill Findlay]

On 30/5/03 17:17, in article wcc1xyg9zoa.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com, "Robert A
Duff" <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote:

>> ... I 
>> replaced Ijk with temp variable and put Ijk := temp before goto and
>> it solved the problem, but why we can't have final value when we break
>> out of the loop? What's the logic behind this language behaviour?
> 
> So I can be constant inside the loop.  The way to think of it is that a
> new constant called I is created and destroyed *each* time through the
> loop.
> 
> But as you can see, it backfires if you're used to the way Pascal works.

In BSI/ANSI/ISO Standard Pascal it is illegal to assign to the controlled
variable inside the body of a for loop.

-- 
Bill-Findlay chez blue-yonder.co.uk ("-" => "")

Re: ada loops

[Stephen Leake]

rm@gunlab.com.ru (Roman V. Isaev) writes:

> I've got bitten by this (code was translated from pascal by p2ada, so 
> please don't bash using goto):
> 
>       for Ijk in 1 .. 40 loop
>          Sss:=Fnmis-Si(Ijk);
>          if  Sss<0.0 then
>             goto Label_1;
>          end if;
>       end loop; --  IJK
>       <<Label_1>>    null;
> 
> Before the loop Ijk is 0, after the loop Ijk is still 0. Huh? Why? 

You left out the first declaration of Ijk. You must actually have
something like:

procedure Foo is
    Ijk : Integer;
begin
    for Ijk in 1 .. 40 loop
        Sss:=Fnmis-Si(Ijk);
        if  Sss<0.0 then
           goto Label_1;
        end if;
    end loop; --  IJK
    <<Label_1>>    null;
end Foo;

There are _two_ variables named Ijk; one in the Foo procedure, and one
in the loop. The loop index variable is _not_ visible outside the
loop. Inside the loop, it hides the outer declaration.

I don't remember how Pascal did this; I suspect the loop variable was
not a new declaration. In standard C++, the loop variable is a new
declaration (as in Ada), but in early versions of C++, it wasn't.

> I replaced Ijk with temp variable and put Ijk := temp before goto
> and it solved the problem, but why we can't have final value when we
> break out of the loop? What's the logic behind this language
> behaviour?

I'm not sure of all of the reasons (see the Ada Rationale for more).
It may have to do with optimizations.

> Also when I try to debug this in GVD I can see Ijk variable, but not
> Sss (it's a global variable described in outer procedure). I see
> following message in the bottom window:
> 
> (gdb) print Sss
> Cannot access memory at address 0x24803ec

That means you have a bug in your code, which is clobbering the stack
or something. Or you have a version of gdb that is not Ada-aware. What
OS and compiler are you using?

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: ada loops

[Robert A Duff]

Stephen Leake <Stephe.Leake@nasa.gov> writes:

> That means you have a bug in your code, which is clobbering the stack
> or something. Or you have a version of gdb that is not Ada-aware. What
> OS and compiler are you using?

There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.

- Bob

Re: ada loops

[Pascal Obry]

Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:

> There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.

This is of course plain wrong !

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: ada loops

[Robert A Duff]

Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:
> 
> > There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.
> 
> This is of course plain wrong !

I was being somewhat sarcastic.  ;-)

Of course I am well aware of the version of gdb distributed with GNAT,
and I use it.  However, almost every time I use it in any serious way,
it shows some confusion about Ada.  For example, it thinks a parameter
of type String is actually of type pointer-to-String.  Often, it can't
find objects that are (or should be) visible -- I'm not sure exactly
what's going on, but I think it is confused about nested block
statements, and nested procedures.  Another example is that it often
crashes when I try to call a procedure with anything but the simplest of
parameter types.

Calling procedures is a very useful feature of any debugger -- it allows
you to print out data stuctures in a higher-level form than a plain
listing of record fields and whatnot.  But it only works half the
time, in my experience.

Another example: I have a generic package that is instantiated 20 times,
and I want to call one of the procedures.  Gdb will then ask me which of
the 20 I meant.  If it were truly Ada aware, it would know which one,
based on the types of the actual parameters -- that's what the compiler
knows how to do.

The OP complained that gdb did something obviously wrong, and somebody
responded saying it must be caused either by a bug in the Ada program
that destroyed memory, or by using the wrong version of gdb.  That's not
my experience at all; the GNAT version gdb lies to me and/or crashes
quite often, even when there are no memory-destroying bugs around
the place.  (Those bugs are quite rare in Ada, after all, given all the
good array-bounds checking and whatnot.)

So I stand by my claim: There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.

Gdb is a C debugger.  The GNAT version understands some part of Ada,
and it does improve over time, but it's still got a long way to go
before it understands Ada as well as, say, the GNAT Ada compiler!

Having said all that, I don't use debuggers very heavily.  Usually just
to get a stack traceback for an unhandled exception.  I think it's
usually better to try to understand the code I write, rather than to
throw something together and then spend all day rummaging around in the
debugger to see what's going on.

- Bob

Re: ada loops

[Robert A Duff]

Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:
> 
> > There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.
> 
> This is of course plain wrong !

Let me also say that my comment was not meant as an insult to the
authors of the somewhat-Ada-aware version of gdb.  Given that gdb
was not designed with Ada in mind, they've done an admirable job
of making it at least *partly* Ada aware.

- Bob

Re: ada loops

[Simon Wright]

Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:

> Stephen Leake <Stephe.Leake@nasa.gov> writes:
> 
> > That means you have a bug in your code, which is clobbering the stack
> > or something. Or you have a version of gdb that is not Ada-aware. What
> > OS and compiler are you using?
> 
> There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.

I don't understand, clearly you're making a point but I have no idea
what it is.

  smaug.pushface.org[3]$ gnatgdb
  GNU gdb 5.1.1.gnat.3.15p 
  Copyright 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  Ada Core Technologies version of GDB for GNAT Professional
  GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are
  welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions.
  Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
  See your support agreement for details of warranty and support.
  If you do not have a current support agreement, then there is absolutely
  no warranty for this version of GDB. Type show warranty for details.
  This GDB was configured as "i386-pc-linux".

(interesting mix there, BTW! "3.15p", "GNAT Professional")

Re: ada loops

[chris.danx]

Simon Wright wrote:

>>There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.
> 
> 
> I don't understand, clearly you're making a point but I have no idea
> what it is.

Perhaps it is that there is no Ada aware gdb, but there is a GNAT aware 
gdb?  I tend to associate debuggers with implementations not languages, 
but I could be wrong...

Re: ada loops

[Pascal Obry]

"chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> writes:

> Perhaps it is that there is no Ada aware gdb, but there is a GNAT aware gdb?
> I tend to associate debuggers with implementations not languages, but I could
> be wrong...

Well, gdb is the open source debugger distributed with GNAT, so of course it
is Ada aware and support only GNAT. Other vendors distribute some other
Ada-aware debuggers with their suite.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: ada loops

[Robert A Duff]

"chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> writes:

> Simon Wright wrote:
> 
> >>There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.
> > I don't understand, clearly you're making a point but I have no idea
> > what it is.
> 
> Perhaps it is that there is no Ada aware gdb, but there is a GNAT aware
> gdb?  I tend to associate debuggers with implementations not languages,
> but I could be wrong...

No, I was not complaining that the gdb distributed with GNAT is
GNAT-specific.  That's to be expected.  I was complaining that
it is not as "Ada aware" as the Ada compiler.

- Bob

Re: ada loops

[Stephen Leake]

Simon Wright <simon@pushface.org> writes:

> Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:
> 
> > Stephen Leake <Stephe.Leake@nasa.gov> writes:
> > 
> > > That means you have a bug in your code, which is clobbering the stack
> > > or something. Or you have a version of gdb that is not Ada-aware. What
> > > OS and compiler are you using?
> > 
> > There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.
> 
> I don't understand, clearly you're making a point but I have no idea
> what it is.

Before I read Robert's follow-up, I thought we were getting into
Artificial Intelligence; what does it mean for a program to be "aware" :).

I agree with all of Robert's critiques of gdb's awareness of Ada.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: ada loops

[Oliver Kellogg]

Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in
wccadd49qb2.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com...
>
> There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.

At the risk of sounding like an ACT spokesperson (which I'm not),
how about

ftp://sources.redhat.com/pub/gdb/contrib/gnat/gdb-5.3-act-2003-02-25.tgz

HTH

Oliver Kellogg

Re: ada loops

[Preben Randhol]

Oliver Kellogg wrote:
> 
> Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in
> wccadd49qb2.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com...
>>
>> There is no version of gdb that is Ada aware.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like an ACT spokesperson (which I'm not),
> how about
> 
> ftp://sources.redhat.com/pub/gdb/contrib/gnat/gdb-5.3-act-2003-02-25.tgz

http://libre.act-europe.fr/GDB/

-- 
Preben Randhol                    http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/

Re: ada loops

[Dave Thompson]

On 30 May 2003 13:25:31 -0400, Stephen Leake <Stephe.Leake@nasa.gov>
wrote:
[for variable local to loop]
> I don't remember how Pascal did this; I suspect the loop variable was
> not a new declaration. In standard C++, the loop variable is a new
> declaration (as in Ada), but in early versions of C++, it wasn't.
> 
Not exactly.  In C++ you have an explicit choice:

1) if you write e.g. for( i = 0; i < 10; i++ ) ... it uses an existing
variable (which must be) already available (declared).

2) if you write e.g. for( int i = 0; i < 10; i++ ) ... it creates a
new variable.  But what happens thereafter varies:  

2A) in pre-standard C++ (aka ARM) this declaration remains in scope 
(and the variable valid) after the loop, to the end of the containing
{ } block -- so you can't declare another variable (or anything) with
the same name, in particular you can't do another for ( int i = 0 ...;

2B) in standard C++(88) it is declared and exists only to the end of
the loop.

In all cases, you need to match the type of the loop variable to the
range of values assigned; this isn't determined for you automatically,
nor checked for overflow (in practice, theoretically it's allowed).

C99, BTW, adds to C the 2B variant.


- David.Thompson1 at worldnet.att.net

Re: ada loops

[Stephen Leake]

Dave Thompson <david.thompson1@worldnet.att.net> writes:

> On 30 May 2003 13:25:31 -0400, Stephen Leake <Stephe.Leake@nasa.gov>
> wrote:
> [for variable local to loop]
> > I don't remember how Pascal did this; I suspect the loop variable was
> > not a new declaration. In standard C++, the loop variable is a new
> > declaration (as in Ada), but in early versions of C++, it wasn't.
> > 
> Not exactly.  In C++ you have an explicit choice:
> 
> 1) if you write e.g. for( i = 0; i < 10; i++ ) ... it uses an existing
> variable (which must be) already available (declared).
> 
> 2) if you write e.g. for( int i = 0; i < 10; i++ ) ... it creates a
> new variable.  

Right, sorry. I forgot the details. Fortunately, I'm not writing much
C++ code these days :).


-- 
-- Stephe