* Newbie: display control @ 2003-03-01 23:27 svaa 2003-03-02 0:12 ` tmoran ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: svaa @ 2003-03-01 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Hello: Is there any library to control display cursor etc, that has become an standard "de facto" in Ada 95?. I'm a newbie in Ada, but I think it's strange that Ada RM, that covers a lot of stuff, doesn't have a screen/cursor/keyboard standard spec. the user interface in Ada 95 is sad (well, I would say missing). I know there are a lot of terminals, and depends a lot upon hardware. But the first Ada was born in 1983, not in 1960, terminals were then an important part of computers world. I don't mean Ada should have a full GUI, but at least a "clear screen", and "set cursor position" procedure. Or was the main goal of Ada embedded systems? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-01 23:27 Newbie: display control svaa @ 2003-03-02 0:12 ` tmoran 2003-03-02 1:30 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2003-03-02 0:12 UTC (permalink / raw) > Is there any library to control display cursor etc, that has become Professor Feldman's ANSI terminal code package has been pretty widely used, I believe, see package Screen in http://www.adaic.com/docs/95style/ascii/sec_11.txt What system are you running on that still handles ANSI terminal codes? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-01 23:27 Newbie: display control svaa 2003-03-02 0:12 ` tmoran @ 2003-03-02 1:30 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2003-03-02 10:11 ` Gautier 2003-03-03 20:17 ` Stephen Leake 3 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: David C. Hoos, Sr. @ 2003-03-02 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada mail to news gateway; +Cc: svaa ----- Original Message ----- From: "svaa" <svaa@ciberpiula.net> Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada To: <comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org> Sent: March 01, 2003 5:27 PM Subject: Newbie: display control > Hello: > Is there any library to control display cursor etc, that has become > an standard "de facto" in Ada 95?. > > I'm a newbie in Ada, but I think it's strange that Ada RM, that covers > a lot of stuff, doesn't have a screen/cursor/keyboard standard spec. > the user interface in Ada 95 is sad (well, I would say missing). > > I know there are a lot of terminals, and depends a lot upon hardware. > But the first Ada was born in 1983, not in 1960, terminals were then > an important part of computers world. I don't mean Ada should have a > full GUI, but at least a "clear screen", and "set cursor position" > procedure. Or was the main goal of Ada embedded systems? Without OS support for a particular terminal discipline, there's not much that a language can do. For example, if you're running a version of Windows that works with ANSI,SYS (i.e., win9x) you can use Mike Feldman's package, as Tom Moran suggested. It also will work with *nix systems with appropriate terminal configuration. What other language (and under what OS) provides the type of operations you deem are missing from Ada? > _______________________________________________ > comp.lang.ada mailing list > comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org > http://ada.eu.org/mailman/listinfo/comp.lang.ada > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-01 23:27 Newbie: display control svaa 2003-03-02 0:12 ` tmoran 2003-03-02 1:30 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. @ 2003-03-02 10:11 ` Gautier 2003-03-02 11:54 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-02 12:53 ` Larry Kilgallen 2003-03-03 20:17 ` Stephen Leake 3 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Gautier @ 2003-03-02 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) svaa: > Is there any library to control display cursor etc, that has become > an standard "de facto" in Ada 95?. > > I'm a newbie in Ada, but I think it's strange that Ada RM, that covers > a lot of stuff, doesn't have a screen/cursor/keyboard standard spec. > the user interface in Ada 95 is sad (well, I would say missing). > > I know there are a lot of terminals, and depends a lot upon hardware. > But the first Ada was born in 1983, not in 1960, terminals were then > an important part of computers world. I don't mean Ada should have a > full GUI, but at least a "clear screen", and "set cursor position" > procedure. Or was the main goal of Ada embedded systems? The designers of Ada have always been very careful not hooking the language into a specific system (for Ada83 even too minimalist, e.g. the missing math libraries). You terminal issue is a good example of the pertinence of this carefulness: in 1983 the terminals had perhaps the "set cursor position" feature, but a normal command line window in 2003 provide basically not more functionality than what you find in Ada.Text_IO. ________________________________________________________ Gautier -- http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/gdm/gsoft.htm NB: For a direct answer, e-mail address on the Web site! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-02 10:11 ` Gautier @ 2003-03-02 11:54 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-02 12:53 ` Larry Kilgallen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-02 11:54 UTC (permalink / raw) > You terminal issue is a good example > of the pertinence of this carefulness: in 1983 the terminals had > perhaps the "set cursor position" feature, but a normal command > line window in 2003 provide basically not more functionality than > what you find in Ada.Text_IO. The problem is basically Microsoft. Since their earliest days, they have resisted proper interpretation of the ANSI escape sequences. Under MS-DOS, they were available only if the ANSI.SYS driver was installed. That was somewhat forgivable back then, given how difficult managing memory on first generation PC's were. What is more difficult to understand is why there is no ANSI support for the CLI under Win32, where memory is no longer the issue it used to be. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-02 10:11 ` Gautier 2003-03-02 11:54 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-02 12:53 ` Larry Kilgallen 2003-03-02 14:24 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-04 11:02 ` Gautier 1 sibling, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2003-03-02 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <17cd177c.0303020211.7097abb@posting.google.com>, gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com (Gautier) writes: > The designers of Ada have always been very careful not hooking the > language into a specific system (for Ada83 even too minimalist, e.g. > the missing math libraries). You terminal issue is a good example > of the pertinence of this carefulness: in 1983 the terminals had > perhaps the "set cursor position" feature, but a normal command > line window in 2003 provide basically not more functionality than > what you find in Ada.Text_IO. That certainly depends on what you mean by "normal". When I must use a machine like Microsoft Windows* or Macintosh that does not come with a terminal emulator, I buy a terminal emulator product for it. On VMS workstations, a terminal emulator comes as part of the DECwindows Motif software. "Command line window", I presume describes Microsoft systems. Doesn't Unix do better ? === *Microsoft Windows comes with a terminal emulator that cannot even properly display a minimal Notes screen, so that does not count. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-02 12:53 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2003-03-02 14:24 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-02 21:30 ` Aurele Vitali 2003-03-04 11:02 ` Gautier 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-02 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw) > "Command line window", I presume describes Microsoft systems. Doesn't > Unix do better ? Unix and VMS both support ANSI escape sequences. Win32 does not, but there are API calls for doing many of the same things. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-02 14:24 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-02 21:30 ` Aurele Vitali 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Aurele Vitali @ 2003-03-02 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.FrankLho@rcn.com> wrote in message news:<b3t46r$mfe$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... > > "Command line window", I presume describes Microsoft systems. Doesn't > > Unix do better ? > > Unix and VMS both support ANSI escape sequences. Win32 does not, but there > are API calls for doing many of the same things. If working on Win32, you can use the following API functions to control your console cursor position (works well with the standard Ada Text_IO package): 1) Wincon.SetConsoleCursorPosition ==> Sets the cursor position (Col, Row) 2) Wincon.SetConsoleTextAttribute ==> Set the text color (including background) 3) Wincon.SetConsoleCursorInfo ==> Changes the corsor shape. You can also check out some of the other Win32 API function in the Win32Ada Wincon package for more functionality. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-02 12:53 ` Larry Kilgallen 2003-03-02 14:24 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-04 11:02 ` Gautier 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Gautier @ 2003-03-04 11:02 UTC (permalink / raw) ["normal" command line window in 2003] Larry Kilgallen: > That certainly depends on what you mean by "normal". When I must use > a machine like Microsoft Windows* or Macintosh that does not come with > a terminal emulator, I buy a terminal emulator product for it. > > On VMS workstations, a terminal emulator comes as part of the DECwindows > Motif software. > > "Command line window", I presume describes Microsoft systems. Doesn't > Unix do better ? And VMS even better! Well, a command line window (a representation of standard_output where you can buffer thousands of lines) is no terminal emulator (a rectangle text area). If you want a terminal emulator on today's graphics systems, of course you can find one. The NT/2K/XP command line window turns into a DOS screen without problem and I'm using Volkov Commander or other DOS programs with pleasure. There all Ada bindings you want to terminals (and emulators). My point is that fortunately the Ada standard did *not* get trapped into this (even, any ?) time-limited and system-dependent technology. ________________________________________________________ Gautier -- http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/gdm/gsoft.htm NB: For a direct answer, e-mail address on the Web site! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-01 23:27 Newbie: display control svaa ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2003-03-02 10:11 ` Gautier @ 2003-03-03 20:17 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-03 22:04 ` John R. Strohm 2003-03-04 15:56 ` Frank J. Lhota 3 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-03 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) svaa@ciberpiula.net (svaa) writes: > Hello: > Is there any library to control display cursor etc, that has become > an standard "de facto" in Ada 95?. Look on adapower.com; there are packages that control cursors in text displays. > I'm a newbie in Ada, but I think it's strange that Ada RM, that > covers a lot of stuff, doesn't have a screen/cursor/keyboard > standard spec. the user interface in Ada 95 is sad (well, I would > say missing). Yes, it is missing. That's because there is no "international standard user interface device". Ada is an international standard, so it has to be very careful about specifying things that might not be. > I know there are a lot of terminals, and depends a lot upon > hardware. But the first Ada was born in 1983, not in 1960, terminals > were then an important part of computers world. I don't mean Ada > should have a full GUI, but at least a "clear screen", and "set > cursor position" procedure. Is there an international standard for these operations? > Or was the main goal of Ada embedded systems? One of the main goals. At the same time, the "normal" user interface these days is graphical (bitmapped), not command-line or character screens. On adapower.com, you will also find severl non-standard libraries to handle graphical displays. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-03 20:17 ` Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-03 22:04 ` John R. Strohm 2003-03-04 15:56 ` Frank J. Lhota 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: John R. Strohm @ 2003-03-03 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Ada was intended specifically for embedded systems. COBOL was intended specifically for automatic data processing systems, and it has had great success in that job. "Stephen Leake" <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> wrote in message news:u1y1ogq71.fsf@nasa.gov... > svaa@ciberpiula.net (svaa) writes: > > > Hello: > > Is there any library to control display cursor etc, that has become > > an standard "de facto" in Ada 95?. > > Look on adapower.com; there are packages that control cursors in text > displays. > > > I'm a newbie in Ada, but I think it's strange that Ada RM, that > > covers a lot of stuff, doesn't have a screen/cursor/keyboard > > standard spec. the user interface in Ada 95 is sad (well, I would > > say missing). > > Yes, it is missing. That's because there is no "international standard > user interface device". Ada is an international standard, so it has to > be very careful about specifying things that might not be. > > > I know there are a lot of terminals, and depends a lot upon > > hardware. But the first Ada was born in 1983, not in 1960, terminals > > were then an important part of computers world. I don't mean Ada > > should have a full GUI, but at least a "clear screen", and "set > > cursor position" procedure. > > Is there an international standard for these operations? > > > Or was the main goal of Ada embedded systems? > > One of the main goals. > > > At the same time, the "normal" user interface these days is graphical > (bitmapped), not command-line or character screens. On adapower.com, > you will also find severl non-standard libraries to handle graphical > displays. > > -- > -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-03 20:17 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-03 22:04 ` John R. Strohm @ 2003-03-04 15:56 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-04 17:45 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-04 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Yes, Ada 95 does not have a standard for moving a cursor in a terminal window, or for clearing such a window, or any of the other ANSI based stuff you talk about. These features, however, are also missing from the standards for C++, Java, C#, etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Newbie: display control 2003-03-04 15:56 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2003-03-04 17:45 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-05 8:44 ` Ada2005 clear screen etc Peter Hermann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-04 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> writes: > Yes, Ada 95 does not have a standard for moving a cursor in a terminal > window, or for clearing such a window, or any of the other ANSI based stuff > you talk about. So there is an ANSI standard for terminals. It might make sense to propose an Ada appendix that implements the ANSI terminal controls. I would probably never use such a thing. > These features, however, are also missing from the standards for > C++, Java, C#, etc. Wow! At last a feature Ada and these other languages have in common :). -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-04 17:45 ` Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-05 8:44 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-05 8:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> wrote: > "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> writes: >> Yes, Ada 95 does not have a standard for moving a cursor in a terminal >> window, or for clearing such a window, or any of the other ANSI based stuff >> you talk about. > So there is an ANSI standard for terminals. It might make sense to > propose an Ada appendix that implements the ANSI terminal controls. yes. this makes sense. the usefulness is similar to e.g. ada.command_line for Unix or DOS shells, screens etc. IMHO. Is it somehow doable, Mike Feldman et.al.? -- --Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de --Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen --http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/ --Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 8:44 ` Ada2005 clear screen etc Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 14:42 ` Peter Hermann ` (2 more replies) 2003-03-05 16:52 ` sk 2003-03-06 19:54 ` sk 2 siblings, 3 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-05 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Hermann wrote: > Stephen Leake <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> wrote: >> "Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> writes: >>> Yes, Ada 95 does not have a standard for moving a cursor in a terminal >>> window, or for clearing such a window, or any of the other ANSI based stuff >>> you talk about. >> So there is an ANSI standard for terminals. It might make sense to >> propose an Ada appendix that implements the ANSI terminal controls. > > yes. this makes sense. > the usefulness is similar to e.g. ada.command_line > for Unix or DOS shells, screens etc. IMHO. > Is it somehow doable, Mike Feldman et.al.? It makes absolutly no sense to put it in the standard IMHO. -- () Join the worldwide campaign to protect fundamental human rights. '||} {||' http://www.amnesty.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-05 14:42 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 14:45 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 22:20 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-03-05 22:27 ` Frode Tennebø 2 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-05 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote: > It makes absolutly no sense to put it in the standard IMHO. where else? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 14:42 ` Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-05 14:45 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 15:12 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-06 13:04 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-05 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Hermann wrote: > Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote: >> It makes absolutly no sense to put it in the standard IMHO. > > where else? As a external library. I don't see the need for it. I mean next will be that we should have some sort of GUI standard in the Ada standard. -- () Join the worldwide campaign to protect fundamental human rights. '||} {||' http://www.amnesty.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 14:45 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-05 15:12 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-06 13:04 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-05 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote: > As a external library. bravo: however a standardized one. > I don't see the need for it. disagree. (reason below) > I mean next will be > that we should have some sort of GUI standard in the Ada standard. me too. there is a desparate need, indeed. However, we should not destroy bridges behind us. A conventional terminal application in its own right will be used in decades to come. I even had the case to resort to an emergency mode of a program in case of GUI failure, i.e. when the graphical surroundings break, the program continues working in degraded mode. Peter Hermann ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 14:45 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 15:12 ` Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-06 13:04 ` Marin David Condic 2003-03-16 4:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2003-03-06 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnb6c38v.4h4.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no... > > As a external library. I don't see the need for it. I mean next will be > that we should have some sort of GUI standard in the Ada standard. > I agree that things like this should not be in the standard. It takes too long to change the standard and libraries are too difficult for which to build a verification suite. IMHO, the answer would be for the Powers That Be (whoever is controlling the standard now plus some larger industrial users) to establish a committee to build and maintain a library of "Conventional Ada" utilities. Start with containers and move on to more specialized areas like math packages, terminal I/O packages, GUIs, etc. If you had at least *some* of the compiler vendors on board and some minimal amount of funding, Ada could end up with some really large and useful libraries of code that would offer leverage to developers and could react quickly to perceived language needs. MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/ Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "Going cold turkey isn't as delicious as it sounds." -- H. Simpson ====================================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-06 13:04 ` Marin David Condic @ 2003-03-16 4:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 2003-03-16 11:04 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Robert I. Eachus @ 2003-03-16 4:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote: >As a external library. I don't see the need for it. I mean next will be >that we should have some sort of GUI standard in the Ada standard. Let me try to answer this from the ARG standpoint, plus some history. Way, way, back in the Mil-Std 1815 (Ada 80) days, I/O was an integral part of the language. By ANSI/Mil-Std 1815A (Ada 83) I/O required no special features within the language, and there was a set of standard packages, Direct_IO, Sequential_IO, Text_IO, and Low_Level_IO, that were required by the standard. In ANSI/ISO 8652 (Ada 95) these packages were moved into Annex A, predefined language environment, along with other old language features and a few new ones. In addition several specialized needs annexes were added for things that were only of interest to small segments of the Ada population. The idea was that compilers need not implement all of the specialized needs annexes. In practice, the major front ends, including GNAT have tended to implement all of the annexes, it really isn't all that hard. (All you need is someone who can read and understand each annex. ;-) But the annexes in my mind have been a success, because the design of the annexes forced us to really work hard on limiting any low-level extensions required to implement an annex. For example, the Information Systems Annex requires a lot of compiler independent software which need only be written once. (Ben Brosgal, Dave Emery, and I wrote a prototype of those operations under contract to the AJPO, and the source code was made public domain.) It also requires supporting a decimal type with at least eighteen decimal digits, and that's about it. Also the there are some dependencies between special needs annexes, but with a structure that makes sense. (For example, it makes no sense to implement the Real-Time Systems annex without the Systems Programming Annex. But when Ada 9X was in development we spent a lot of effort deciding what should and should not be added to the standard. The NRG had done a lot of work over a decade developing math packages. In 1982, the consensus was that adding a bad numerics library to the standard would be a mistake, and we couldn't delay the Ada standard until they were ready. By the early nineties they were ready, consistant with the IEEE work, and there was little argument that they should not be added. Similarly, for political reasons, support for other character sets was a requirement. But even though we put a significant amount of effort into developing an SQL interface, the consensus was that it wasn't something that belonged in the standard. (And in my opinion a good thing too. There were three proposals each with its strengths and weaknesses, and I have never really used any of them for more than a two or three page program. However there are now some very nice database bindings that don't require a blinding headache--and that were not available in time for Ada 95. If someone were to take the GNADE work: http://gnade.sourceforge.net/doc/gnade.html and propose all or part of it as part of the new standard, go ahead. Personally, I find the thin ODBC binding easy enough to use, but I think that a thinker binding would be more appropriate for adding to the standard. So what will be added to Ada 0Y? The only real consensus at this point is that there are some container libraries that should be considered. Check the Ada Issues database http://www.ada-auth.org/~acats/ais.html for details. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-16 4:37 ` Robert I. Eachus @ 2003-03-16 11:04 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-17 21:17 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-16 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert I. Eachus wrote: > However there are now some very nice database bindings that don't > require a blinding headache--and that were not available in time for > Ada 95. If someone were to take the GNADE work: > http://gnade.sourceforge.net/doc/gnade.html and propose all or part of > it as part of the new standard, go ahead. Personally, I find the thin > ODBC binding easy enough to use, but I think that a thinker binding > would be more appropriate for adding to the standard. Wouldn't mind this :-) > So what will be added to Ada 0Y? The only real consensus at this > point is that there are some container libraries that should be > considered. Check the Ada Issues database > http://www.ada-auth.org/~acats/ais.html for details. This would at least be very nice to have. What about Unicode? Is Wide_String/Character sufficient for further needs? -- Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ -- �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.� ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-16 11:04 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-17 21:17 ` Randy Brukardt 2003-03-18 8:48 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2003-03-17 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote in message ... >What about Unicode? Is Wide_String/Character sufficient for further >needs? Wide_Wide_Character and associated operations are also under consideration. But note that there are NOT libraries, which was the topic of discussion. Randy Brukardt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-17 21:17 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2003-03-18 8:48 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-18 9:23 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-18 20:31 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 2 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-18 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Randy Brukardt wrote: > > Wide_Wide_Character and associated operations are also under > consideration. But note that there are NOT libraries, which was the > topic of discussion. No, I was just searching through the topics and I could find something on it, but apparently I wasn't using the correct search words :-) No I'll check the proposals for the Calendar package. :-) -- Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ -- �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.� ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-18 8:48 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-18 9:23 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-18 20:31 ` Randy Brukardt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-18 9:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: > > No I'll check the proposals for the Calendar package. :-) Now I'll ... -- http://www.gulufuture.com/news/kate_adie030310.htm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-18 8:48 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-18 9:23 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-18 20:31 ` Randy Brukardt 2003-03-19 8:13 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2003-03-18 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote in message ... >Randy Brukardt wrote: >> >> Wide_Wide_Character and associated operations are also under >> consideration. But note that there are NOT libraries, which was the >> topic of discussion. > >No, I was just searching through the topics and I could find something >on it, but apparently I wasn't using the correct search words :-) Wide_Wide_Character is in AI-285. (BTW, the AdaIC search engine doesn't currently index the AIs, because they're inside of the version control system, which makes them invisible to the indexer. We'll figure out a fix soon.) Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-18 20:31 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2003-03-19 8:13 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-19 8:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Randy Brukardt wrote: > Wide_Wide_Character is in AI-285. (BTW, the AdaIC search engine doesn't > currently index the AIs, because they're inside of the version control > system, which makes them invisible to the indexer. We'll figure out a > fix soon.) I see. I downloaded the files so I'll have a look at it. Preben ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 14:42 ` Peter Hermann @ 2003-03-05 22:20 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-03-05 22:27 ` Frode Tennebø 2 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Frode Tennebø @ 2003-03-05 22:20 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wednesday 05 March 2003 14:40 Preben Randhol wrote: > It makes absolutly no sense to put it in the standard IMHO. Why? -Frode -- ^ Frode Tenneb� | email: frode@tennebo.com | Frode@IRC ^ | with Standard.Disclaimer; use Standard.Disclaimer; | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 14:42 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 22:20 ` Frode Tennebø @ 2003-03-05 22:27 ` Frode Tennebø 2 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Frode Tennebø @ 2003-03-05 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wednesday 05 March 2003 14:40 Preben Randhol wrote: > It makes absolutly no sense to put it in the standard IMHO. Why not? -Frode -- ^ Frode Tenneb� | email: frode@tennebo.com | Frode@IRC ^ | with Standard.Disclaimer; use Standard.Disclaimer; | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 8:44 ` Ada2005 clear screen etc Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-03-05 16:52 ` sk 2003-03-05 17:44 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-06 19:54 ` sk 2 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: sk @ 2003-03-05 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada mail to news gateway Hi, <randhol+news@pvv.org> : > As a external library. I don't see the need for it. I mean next > will be that we should have some sort of GUI standard in the > Ada standard. In case anybody is starting a voting process on this, I am in the <randhol+news@pvv.org> group of hoping that specific platform needs are NOT incorporated into any new language standards. Let the market decide on useful *external* libraries, but do not burden the language itself with items possibly subject to fashion or politics. Eg, Sockets : Windows has an API for sockets, the rest of the world has another. I would not like for Ada, a few years from now, tied to the obsolete socket API when the politics gets sorted out and one API is accepted by all. Also especially since the abstract concept of "sockets" might have changed altogther and be called "connection" or "channel" or something. -- ------------------------------------------------- -- Merge vertically for real address -- -- s n p @ t . o -- k i e k c c m ------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 16:52 ` sk @ 2003-03-05 17:44 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-05 20:46 ` Larry Kilgallen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-05 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw) sk <noname@myob.com> writes: > Let the market decide on useful *external* libraries, but do not > burden the language itself with items possibly subject to fashion > or politics. I agree. However, the ANSI standard for terminals has been around for a long time, and still has some use. Why not put it in the Ada standard? I have never used many of the appendices in Ada; that doesn't mean they should not be there. A compiler vendor might chime in that no customer of theirs has ever requested this feature; that would be more meaningful than individual posters on comp.lang.ada saying "i've never needed this". Several compiler vendors saying that would be even more meaningful. Hmm. I guess that's the "market" you talk about above; so I guess I agree with you again :) > Eg, Sockets : Windows has an API for sockets, the rest of the world > has another. I would not like for Ada, a few years from now, tied to > the obsolete socket API when the politics gets sorted out and one > API is accepted by all. Also especially since the abstract concept > of "sockets" might have changed altogther and be called "connection" > or "channel" or something. You do have to pick a standard sometime; there will always be a "better" way "just around the corner". The trick is to pick the right time. For sockets, it seems that GNAT.Sockets (also AdaSockets? I have not actually used either) works well on both Unix and Windows, so that seems a reasonable candidate for an Ada standard. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 17:44 ` Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-05 20:46 ` Larry Kilgallen 2003-03-06 13:09 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2003-03-05 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <uu1ehpv1s.fsf@nasa.gov>, Stephen Leake <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> writes: > However, the ANSI standard for terminals has been around for a long > time, and still has some use. Why not put it in the Ada standard? Because the Ada standard should be for things that require support from the compiler vendor. There should be a body of widely used libraries that can be augmented on a more frequent basis than the cycle for the language standard, but we will never get there so long as people insist on shoving everything into the language standard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 20:46 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2003-03-06 13:09 ` Marin David Condic 2003-03-06 19:52 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2003-03-06 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message news:fTNRJIatrAeV@eisner.encompasserve.org... > > Because the Ada standard should be for things that require support from > the compiler vendor. > > There should be a body of widely used libraries that can be augmented on > a more frequent basis than the cycle for the language standard, but we > will never get there so long as people insist on shoving everything into > the language standard. Absolutely. If we had a committee that built and maintained a library of utility code as a "Reference Implementation" it could be packaged with the compilers but provided in an unsupported mode. (Tell the customers to e-mail the committee) To be successful though, I believe you have to have the compiler vendors (and others, of course) driving the effort. MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/ Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "Going cold turkey isn't as delicious as it sounds." -- H. Simpson ====================================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-06 13:09 ` Marin David Condic @ 2003-03-06 19:52 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-07 12:49 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 35+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-06 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <mcondic.auntie.spam@acm.org> writes: > Absolutely. If we had a committee that built and maintained a library of > utility code as a "Reference Implementation" it could be packaged with the > compilers but provided in an unsupported mode. SIGAda is trying to start something like that (see http://www.sigada.org/wg/apiwg/). Maybe it will succeed. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-06 19:52 ` Stephen Leake @ 2003-03-07 12:49 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2003-03-07 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov> wrote in message news:usmu0z2zr.fsf@nasa.gov... > > SIGAda is trying to start something like that (see > http://www.sigada.org/wg/apiwg/). Maybe it will succeed. > We can always hope. Do you know if there is any vendor participation? MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/ Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "Going cold turkey isn't as delicious as it sounds." -- H. Simpson ====================================================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada2005 clear screen etc. 2003-03-05 8:44 ` Ada2005 clear screen etc Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 16:52 ` sk @ 2003-03-06 19:54 ` sk 2 siblings, 0 replies; 35+ messages in thread From: sk @ 2003-03-06 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada mail to news gateway Hi, Stephen.A.Leake@nasa.gov : > ... ANSI standard ... I was more panicing over the thought that the language be bound to some possibly transient fashion and hadn't stopped to consider some never dying, ubiquitous things like the ANSI terminal standard. However, I tend towards the <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> comment > Because the Ada standard should be for things that require > support from the compiler vendor. and subsequent comments on the response cycle for a set of libraries. With that thought, how about an official but very flexible and distinctly separate package hierarchy ? (.. and I am sure it has been discussed before or there are comments as part of the Ada200y process, sorry for lack of opportunity to fully investigate. Also please note that I am not familiar with any of the ongoing Ada library projects or the "C++" standard library so, again, sorry if this is a rehash of other discussions or duplication of ideas so RTFM me, with URL, if appropriate). Standard Ada.xxx Interfaces.xxx System.xxx Libraries.xxx "Libraries" just a graft point, nothing significant about the name. "Libraries" would, by agreement, have some invarient subtrees. Perhaps two levels of abstract/conceptual packages before specific solutions are grafted into the tree ? Libraries.Vendor (invarient, children as needed) .Gnat. .Os_Lib; ... .RRSoftware .Claw ... Libraries.Host (invariant, children as needed) .Linux .Windows .Win32Ada Libraries.Host_Interfaces. .Console. .ANSI_Terminal <Perhaps the M.Feldman terminal package > .VT100_Terminal ... .Graphical .Win32Ada renames Libraries.Host.Windows.Win32Ada .GtkAda ... .File_System ... .Network .Transport .Sockets ... .Protocols .Smtp .Http ... .etc Libraries.Objects_And_Methods .Containers . <The current Container library project perhaps> .Strings <Just "Ada.Strings.*" as an example of the purpose for "Libraries.Objects_And_Methods"> Libraries.Standardized_Interfaces .Posix .RFCs etc There are a lot of crossovers, but Ada has the "renames" mechanism which could associate "Libraries.Vendor.Gnat.Directory_Operations" for example, with "Libraries.Host_Interfaces.File_System.Directories" This needs a lot more thought and work (rearrangment, better nameing, interdependencies, circularity, management burden etc), however, it could provide a more cohesive framework into which APIs would fit without burdening the core language or its "Ada.*" package hierarchy. -- ------------------------------------------------- -- Merge vertically for real address -- -- s n p @ t . o -- k i e k c c m ------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 35+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-03-19 8:13 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 35+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-03-01 23:27 Newbie: display control svaa 2003-03-02 0:12 ` tmoran 2003-03-02 1:30 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2003-03-02 10:11 ` Gautier 2003-03-02 11:54 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-02 12:53 ` Larry Kilgallen 2003-03-02 14:24 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-02 21:30 ` Aurele Vitali 2003-03-04 11:02 ` Gautier 2003-03-03 20:17 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-03 22:04 ` John R. Strohm 2003-03-04 15:56 ` Frank J. Lhota 2003-03-04 17:45 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-05 8:44 ` Ada2005 clear screen etc Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 13:40 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 14:42 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-05 14:45 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 15:12 ` Peter Hermann 2003-03-06 13:04 ` Marin David Condic 2003-03-16 4:37 ` Robert I. Eachus 2003-03-16 11:04 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-17 21:17 ` Randy Brukardt 2003-03-18 8:48 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-18 9:23 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-18 20:31 ` Randy Brukardt 2003-03-19 8:13 ` Preben Randhol 2003-03-05 22:20 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-03-05 22:27 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-03-05 16:52 ` sk 2003-03-05 17:44 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-05 20:46 ` Larry Kilgallen 2003-03-06 13:09 ` Marin David Condic 2003-03-06 19:52 ` Stephen Leake 2003-03-07 12:49 ` Marin David Condic 2003-03-06 19:54 ` sk
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