Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Preben Randhol]

Beard, Frank Randolph CIV wrote:
> 
> Because communist countries are notorious for controlling the media
> and reporting propoganda and misinformation (to put it politely).

Yes, but US media is controled by the money. If they don't go with
what is popular the big networks will lose viewers and revenues. To my
view the critical coverage in the big medias are not so free as you
would like them.

PS: please turn off html when posting to newsgroups.

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Yes, but US media is controled by the money. If they don't go with
> what is popular

Scandals involving government coverups are extremely popular.
The Clinton era certainly proved that.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote:
:> Because communist countries are notorious for controlling the media
:> and reporting propoganda and misinformation (to put it politely).

: Yes, but US media is controled by the money.

Many media experts around here. Now explain:
There exists an O bin L video tape, such that
(a) western institution 1 says, we're 9x% sure that it is him,
(b) western institution 2 says, we're 9x% sure that it is not him,
both informations spread through the same media. Institution 1 is
reported to be in the USA, institution 2 is reported to be
in Switzerland.

-- georg,
preferring democracies, voting, and true disestablishment of the Church

RE: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada Compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Hi everyone,

I recalled the above OT thread a few months ago regarding Iraq 
suffering and the arguments about the creditability of news source 
from a communist country like China.

I found an interesting so called "Iraq Fact Sheet - Answering Bush's 
Big Myths About Iraq" to support my views.

You can download from 
http://www.internationalanswer.org/pdf/iraqfactsheet.pdf

Does it have enough creditability?

Please accept my apology to bring alive this hated thread once again.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada Compiler for .NET)

[Frank J. Lhota]

> Does it have enough creditability?

No it does not. This sheet comes from A.N.S.W.E.R., a rather extreme group
with its own idealogical axe to grind.

> Please accept my apology to bring alive this hated thread once again.

Apology accepted. Let us just agree to disagree at this point and more on --
hopefully, to something about Ada.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada Compiler for .NET)

[Karel Miklav]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> I recalled the above OT thread a few months ago regarding Iraq suffering 
> and the arguments about the creditability of news source from a 
> communist country like China.

Adrian, I've watched report from Iraq on the national TV here in 
Slovenia the other day. They were talking about problems caused by US 
dirty bombs as a fact. But ok, who knows? At least, some people can be 
pretty sure about their origins (http://www.bushorchimp.com/) :)

Regards,
Karel Miklav

RE: New Ada compiler for .NET

[Robert C. Leif]

Yes! Or if you are a pessimist, the US DoD uses C++ and the enemy uses
Ada. Unfortunately, there is ample precedent for this. The Germans used
General De Gaulle's writings on tank warfare to invade France. The US
invented the aircraft carrier; and the Japanese used them at Pearl
Harbor.
Bob Leif
-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Warren W. Gay
VE3WWG
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 10:03 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: New Ada compiler for .NET

Robert C. Leif wrote:
> Software is not alone in this policy. I have attended two talks by Dr.
> John H. Marburger, III, Science Adviser to the President and Director
of
> the Office of Science and Technology Policy. He stressed that the
> molecular biologists and microbiologists should be careful on what we
> publish. Now, we should ask ourselves, what language would we use for
> any significant weapon or system that requires high reliability and
how
> simple is it to obtain an excellent compiler? I do not know a good
> solution to the tradeoff between advancing our software technology and
> security.
> Bob Leif

I suppose that if the terrorist had to use C/C++ to make a bomb, there
would be a greater chance of it blowing up in their face ;-)

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: New Ada compiler for .NET

[Richard Riehle]

"Robert C. Leif" wrote:

> Yes! Or if you are a pessimist, the US DoD uses C++ and the enemy uses
> Ada. Unfortunately, there is ample precedent for this. The Germans used
> General De Gaulle's writings on tank warfare to invade France. The US
> invented the aircraft carrier; and the Japanese used them at Pearl
> Harbor.
> Bob Leif

Interesting note, Robert.  A couple of years ago we received a request
for Ada training from Iran.    Every now and then, we get a request
from some other potential enemy.  We don't do training for these
countries, but the fact that they are doing projects in Ada is amusing.
My little booklet, Ada Distilled, has been downloaded by people from
all over the world including many places in the Middle East.  GNAT
compilers are also being downloaded from a lot of places we don't
have particularly friendly relations.   Hmmmmmmm.  I wonder if
the copy of GNAT in North Korea is being used for nuclear
weapons construction?

Richard Riehle

Re: New Ada compiler for .NET

[Adam Kingsl]

Few years ago I've heard a story from one guy, at that time Ph.D student who
went to Iran to teach Control Systems Theory. Amusing thing was that his
contract was terminated 1 month earlier because, as he believed, he used his
lectures to carry political propaganda. Despite that fact he was PAID IN
FULL and some g-nt official escorted him to airport after that and made sure
that he will live unchecked (no stamps in his passport) for "his own good".
Why would anyone abuse his student's trust in him as an engineer for
religious "propaganda" ?
I think instead of declaring them enemies we would help them to catch up
with technologies so they won't feel like living in dark ages and consider
rest of the world to be more of friends than of "Americans" ?

"Richard Riehle" <richard@adaworks.com> wrote in message
news:3DEA5CC0.6B435E66@adaworks.com...
> "Robert C. Leif" wrote:
>
> > Yes! Or if you are a pessimist, the US DoD uses C++ and the enemy uses
> > Ada. Unfortunately, there is ample precedent for this. The Germans used
> > General De Gaulle's writings on tank warfare to invade France. The US
> > invented the aircraft carrier; and the Japanese used them at Pearl
> > Harbor.
> > Bob Leif
>
> Interesting note, Robert.  A couple of years ago we received a request
> for Ada training from Iran.    Every now and then, we get a request
> from some other potential enemy.  We don't do training for these
> countries, but the fact that they are doing projects in Ada is amusing.
> My little booklet, Ada Distilled, has been downloaded by people from
> all over the world including many places in the Middle East.  GNAT
> compilers are also being downloaded from a lot of places we don't
> have particularly friendly relations.   Hmmmmmmm.  I wonder if
> the copy of GNAT in North Korea is being used for nuclear
> weapons construction?
>
> Richard Riehle
>

Re: New Ada compiler for .NET

[Preben Randhol]

Adam Kingsl wrote:

> "propaganda" ?  I think instead of declaring them enemies we would
> help them to catch up with technologies so they won't feel like living
> in dark ages and consider rest of the world to be more of friends than
> of "Americans" ?

Perhaps rather ask the questions:

   "Why do so many people hate America."
   "What have America done to the world."


-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Preben Randhol" <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message
news:slrnauud95.d8u.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no...
> Perhaps rather ask the questions:
>
>    "Why do so many people hate America."

Ignorance.  Honestly, hatred of people of whom you do not know can only be
the result of ignorance.  It is irrational to hate a country.  It may be
rational to oppose a government's policies or an individual actions, but to
hate a group of people is simply irrational and the first step towards
handing out blanket judgements.

>    "What have America done to the world."

Furthermore, what has the world done to itself?
The American governments have made mistakes, but they have also benefited
the world significantly.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Chad R. Meiners <crmeiners@hotmail.com> wrote:
: 
: Ignorance.  Honestly, hatred of people of whom you do not know can only be
: the result of ignorance.

True, yes, quite true, every report I've heard so far about people
living on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea confirms mutual
ignorance on a large scale. With regard to the conflict in question,
this place seems highly representative to me. Even in that so much is,
in terms of gossip, said about the area, as well as about the good
western democracy against the evil eastern com_muslimists. I don't
know any better, but learning seems better to me than almost anything
currently discussed.

See http://www.rice.edu/projects/reno/Newsrel/2003/20020918_predictwar.shtml
for a computing related view.

: It is irrational to hate a country.

Well, it's not just rational to love someone (or at least I would hope
so), so rationality might be a more involved matter. But emotions do matter,
so if there were more honest information from those who will decide
about how military action is going to influence our daily lives in the
near future, and why, and why really, I'd feel a lot better. It opens
up room for arguments.

If you _knew_ Ada, and C, and ML, and Perl, and ..., whouldn't that be
better than just preferring one of those languages for reasons that
sometimes appear emotional, or religious, or fundamentalist?
If language wars are so frequent, what are the ways to evade, use,
prevent language wars? Have them do no real harm.

Anyone want to praise rational Ada programs, driving homeland protection
devices that won't erratically fly after my friends' mobile phones?
SCNR.

-- georg

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Frank J. Lhota]

I love your analogy between wars between nations and language wars. Why
can't all programming languages live in peace? After all, the GNU people
have united many languages with the gcc (GNU Compiler Collection) front end.
Does that make GNU the diplomatic alternative to language wars?

I say, make love not war!

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Preben Randhol]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> True, yes, quite true, every report I've heard so far about people
> living on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea confirms mutual
> ignorance on a large scale. With regard to the conflict in question,
> this place seems highly representative to me. Even in that so much is,
> in terms of gossip, said about the area, as well as about the good
> western democracy against the evil eastern com_muslimists. I don't
> know any better, but learning seems better to me than almost anything
> currently discussed.

Most Americans want to bomb Iraq, but most of those cannot place Iraq on
the map. That scares me.

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Most Americans want to bomb Iraq, but most of those cannot place Iraq on
> the map. That scares me.

Don't worry. The bombers will be able to place Iraq just fine.
They won't miss.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> 
> Most Americans want to bomb Iraq, but most of those cannot place Iraq on
> the map. That scares me.
> 
> 

Ignorance prevailed!

Iraq has been victimized. Many people in this world know that Osama 
bin Laden hates Saddam Hussein. Many people know that they are not 
connected. Iraq has just been victimized.

Double standard has been obvious on the Iraqi and North Korean issue. 
The fact is that it is hard to bring down North Korea. The US has no 
"capabilities" to fight a conventional war. The Northern Korea has 
very well trained military forces. They can even fight with empty 
hands. It is one of the best in the world. I salute them as true men.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Iraq has been victimized.

Yep. It's a darn shame how they were forced to invade Kuwait.

> The fact is that it is hard to bring down North Korea.

Mostly, it's that South Korea is unenthusiastic about
starting a war in their backyard.

> The US has no "capabilities" to fight a conventional war.
 > The Northern Korea has very well trained military forces.
 > They can even fight with empty hands.

I'm sure that empty hands will work very well against
synchronized artillery attacks from miles away. Reminds
me of the way that the Polish horse cavalry routed the
invading Germans. Oh, wait. They didn't.

> It is one of the best in the world.
 > I salute them as true men.

When was the last time they actually fought anyone?
Which is another reason for the "double standard".
North Korea has kept within their own borders since
the war. They've just been starving their own people,
not formally attacking anyone else. I suspect that
if the North ever does invade the South, the soldiers
will head straight for the nearest McDonalds.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Michal Nowak]

On 2002-12-10 at 09:46 Hyman Rosen wrote:

>I'm sure that empty hands will work very well against
>synchronized artillery attacks from miles away. Reminds
>me of the way that the Polish horse cavalry routed the
>invading Germans. Oh, wait. They didn't.

With hope to receive the promised help from western allies.
They were doing their best to defend their own country.
I don't want to say now, that I hate Frenchman or Englishman,
because over half a century ago their army did not 
responded to German attack. I don't care about all these
military treaties and I wish there were no armies nor wars
(yes, I know that nobody wants it) and all the big money spent
for armament went for ecology, food and other peaceful
purposes. I'm ashamed for my countrymen shouting, that now we
don't like Russians and love Americans, who 20 years ago cried
exactly opposite. NATO expands to the east and our president is
saying that he will do whatever Bush wishes, that our army is for
his disposal. And that one day someone will get the idea to invade
Russia - why not, they're not in NATO, we don't like them, maybe
they plot something against us - not enough reasons? And that
one day we will blow up the whole Earth and everything will go
to hell. All that does not impose that I don't like Americans
or Chinese or Russians because their governments undertake steps 
I don't approve. Many people tend to associate a nation with
a stereotype and treat individual persons according to it.

The longer I read this thread, the more I realize that something
is wrong. With the world or with me. Maybe I'm to naive or 
not mature enough or not educated enough wishing that there
was only peace everywhere and that everyone was living in 
happiness and abundance. Or maybe I was born in wrong times...

   - Michal


"The matter is not where we are, but when we are"
Charlton Heston as George Taylor in "The Planet of the Apes"

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Michal Nowak wrote:
> They were doing their best to defend their own country.

Doing your best, being brave, defneding your own country
all mean nothing against superior technology. The world
is not thriller fiction.

> The longer I read this thread, the more I realize that something
> is wrong. With the world or with me. Maybe I'm to naive or 
> not mature enough or not educated enough wishing that there
> was only peace everywhere and that everyone was living in 
> happiness and abundance. Or maybe I was born in wrong times...

Has there ever been a "right" time where there was peace
everywhere and everyone living in happiness and abundance?
I doubt it. The basic problem always is that there exist
people whose goals are in conflict. In many cases, one or
more sides will decide to use force to achieve their goals.
That is why everyone must arm. You cannot force your opponents
to peace, and you cannot leave yourself undefended.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Michal Nowak]

On 2002-12-10 at 17:14 Hyman Rosen wrote:

>Michal Nowak wrote:
>> They were doing their best to defend their own country.
>
>Doing your best, being brave, defneding your own country
>all mean nothing against superior technology. The world
>is not thriller fiction.

At least it is better than standing inactively and allow 
the enemy to smash you. 

>> The longer I read this thread, the more I realize that something
>> is wrong. With the world or with me. Maybe I'm to naive or 
>> not mature enough or not educated enough wishing that there
>> was only peace everywhere and that everyone was living in 
>> happiness and abundance. Or maybe I was born in wrong times...
>
>Has there ever been a "right" time where there was peace
>everywhere and everyone living in happiness and abundance?
>I doubt it.

Maybe there will be...



"The matter is not where we are, but when we are"
Charlton Heston as George Taylor in "The Planet of the Apes"

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Michal Nowak wrote:
> At least it is better than standing inactively and allow 
> the enemy to smash you.

It doesn't matter. The universe doesn't give you extra
points for effort.

> Maybe there will be...

There will when the world is run by Pax Americana or something
similar - a worldwide organization with a powerful military force
and the will to use it when someone gets uppity. Ultimately,
"might makes right" is the only way in which anything can be
organized, because force is the only answer to someone who refuses
to follow the rules.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Michal Nowak]

On 2002-12-16 at 04:58 Hyman Rosen wrote:

>Michal Nowak wrote:
>> At least it is better than standing inactively and allow 
>> the enemy to smash you.
>
>It doesn't matter. The universe doesn't give you extra
>points for effort.

But the history does ;-)

>> Maybe there will be...
>
>There will when the world is run by Pax Americana or something
>similar - a worldwide organization with a powerful military force
>and the will to use it when someone gets uppity. Ultimately,
>"might makes right" is the only way in which anything can be
>organized, because force is the only answer to someone who refuses
>to follow the rules.

I was thinking about times, when people will be clever
(intelligent) enough to avoid making any conflicting situations.
And I'm aware its rather distant future (it it will ever take
place). Your solution is similar to sheperd's who is using bats
to keep sheeps in order.

   -Michal


"In the world of machines, virtual machines,
dominated by software ...
                  ... a new culture is born"

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Michal Nowak wrote:

> On 2002-12-10 at 09:46 Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'm sure that empty hands will work very well against
>>synchronized artillery attacks from miles away. Reminds
>>me of the way that the Polish horse cavalry routed the
>>invading Germans. Oh, wait. They didn't.
>>
> 
> With hope to receive the promised help from western allies.
> They were doing their best to defend their own country.
> I don't want to say now, that I hate Frenchman or Englishman,
> because over half a century ago their army did not 
> responded to German attack. I don't care about all these
> military treaties and I wish there were no armies nor wars
> (yes, I know that nobody wants it) and all the big money spent
> for armament went for ecology, food and other peaceful
> purposes. I'm ashamed for my countrymen shouting, that now we
> don't like Russians and love Americans, who 20 years ago cried
> exactly opposite. NATO expands to the east and our president is
> saying that he will do whatever Bush wishes, that our army is for
> his disposal. And that one day someone will get the idea to invade
> Russia - why not, they're not in NATO, we don't like them, maybe
> they plot something against us - not enough reasons? And that
> one day we will blow up the whole Earth and everything will go
> to hell. All that does not impose that I don't like Americans
> or Chinese or Russians because their governments undertake steps 
> I don't approve. Many people tend to associate a nation with
> a stereotype and treat individual persons according to it.
> 
> The longer I read this thread, the more I realize that something
> is wrong. With the world or with me. Maybe I'm to naive or 
> not mature enough or not educated enough wishing that there
> was only peace everywhere and that everyone was living in 
> happiness and abundance. Or maybe I was born in wrong times...
> 
>    - Michal

Help? I call it western hypocrisy! $$$, power, global dominance are 
the ultimate goal for the capitalists.

That's nothing wrong with the world but the intelligent of human. 
Wouldn't the world a better place to live if human has no greed for 
$$$ and power?
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

>> Many people tend to associate a nation with
>> a stereotype and treat individual persons according to it.
> 
> 
> Help? I call it western hypocrisy! $$$, power, global dominance are the 
> ultimate goal for the capitalists.
> 
> That's nothing wrong with the world but the intelligent of human. 
> Wouldn't the world a better place to live if human has no greed for $$$ 
> and power?


Let's look at a simple analogy. Why is there language war?

The individuals' ultimate goal is to dominate the computer world with 
the language that they think superior to the other. I say C is better 
than Ada and hundreds of C.L.A. will immediately "retaliate" with the 
intention to help me to understand why Ada is a better option to C. 
Often this good intention to help will soon propagate itself into a 
large scale language war.

Look carefully. What happen to this world now actually exist in C.L.A. 
but on a different scale. C culture often conflicts with Ada's. 
Western culture often conflicts with the eastern, particularly the 
middle east. How often western leader can accomodate the feeling of 
people with cultural differences? That's the source of the problem.

Has Ada dominated? What about C? What about the others? No one 
language will ever dominate. Never. And each day, new programming 
languages emerged. So does human culture.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

I already know that it's possible to settle conflict
peacefully, and that the burning issues of one time
are the foolish historical quirks of another.

The problem lies in the assumption that *all* conflicts
can be settled peacefully. But there is no way to assure
that you will not be physically attacked by someone with
whom you are in conflict. In the case of Iraq, we have a
precedent, where that nation did in fact go and attack a
neighbor.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
> 
> I already know that it's possible to settle conflict
> peacefully, and that the burning issues of one time
> are the foolish historical quirks of another.



History? Doesn't the West learn from the History?


> The problem lies in the assumption that *all* conflicts
> can be settled peacefully. But there is no way to assure
> that you will not be physically attacked by someone with
> whom you are in conflict. In the case of Iraq, we have a
> precedent, where that nation did in fact go and attack a
> neighbor.
> 



Yes. Conflicts can be settled peacefully, in my opinion. The real 
problem is the western hypocrisy. Without true sincerity, it cannot be 
settled. Why the US likes to setup military bases at every corner of 
the world? Do you think this is for peace? The US has been longing to 
have military base for tactical purpose in south Asia many years ago. 
911 had just given US a very good reason to do so. You can't have 
peace by having military bases in someonelse backyard! This is western 
hypocrisy. This is global dominance. All the stories are merely lies.

With some "*** good ***" intention, your neighbor offer to put his 
"dog" in your back yard to ensure security. But, do you like your 
neighbor to put his "dog" in your back yard hurting your children?

Didn't Iraq get what he deserved when he attack his neighbor? Are the 
people of Iraq getting enough of suffering? It has been more than 10 
years of suffering. I think it is enough. Why trying to push them 
further to the edge again? This will make the Iraqi hates deeper!

The recent capture of an Iraqi in exile had revealed the West trying 
to use dirty tactics to bring down Saddam. I can't remember his name. 
He was captured in Europe. He was trained and assisted by the Western 
secret agents. You dare to call this for peace. Remember who created 
Saddam! Who is the real culprit? He should be shot! Another example of 
Western Hypocrisy.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

> 
> The recent capture of an Iraqi in exile had revealed the West trying to 
> use dirty tactics to bring down Saddam. I can't remember his name. He 
> was captured in Europe. He was trained and assisted by the Western 
> secret agents. You dare to call this for peace. Remember who created 
> Saddam! Who is the real culprit? He should be shot! Another example of 
> Western Hypocrisy.


Remember who created Taliban? Who did supply weapons to the Taliban? 
Who is the real culprit? He should be shot too!

Just another example of Western Hypocrisy.

The west makes bigger mistakes when they try to dig bigger hole to 
cover their mistakes.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[chris.danx]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
> Remember who created Taliban? Who did supply weapons to the Taliban? Who 
> is the real culprit? He should be shot too!
 >
> Just another example of Western Hypocrisy.
> 
> The west makes bigger mistakes when they try to dig bigger hole to cover 
> their mistakes.

You and Hyman are as bad as each other.  Both believing unquestionably 
what you're goverments tell you.  If they told you the Halting Problem 
was decibable and possible in polynomial time, you'd believe them 
without question!

killing this thread...

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

chris.danx wrote:

> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>
>> Remember who created Taliban? Who did supply weapons to the Taliban? 
>> Who is the real culprit? He should be shot too!
> 
>  >
> 
>> Just another example of Western Hypocrisy.
>>
>> The west makes bigger mistakes when they try to dig bigger hole to 
>> cover their mistakes.
> 
> 
> You and Hyman are as bad as each other.  Both believing unquestionably 
> what you're goverments tell you.  If they told you the Halting Problem 
> was decibable and possible in polynomial time, you'd believe them 
> without question!
> 


I am bad? I hope I am. :-)

Last Tuesday, US tighten the embargo against Iraq. Among the banned 
goods are medical supplies and antobiotics (Source: Reuters). Where is 
the "Human Rights" the US (and the West?) always shouting about?
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

chris.danx wrote:
> You and Hyman are as bad as each other.

But I'm right and he's wrong! Doesn't that make me better? :-)

> Both believing unquestionably what you're goverments tell you.

I don't believe anything my government tells me.
I just have a different opinion about the nature of the lies.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
 > This is western hypocrisy.
> This is global dominance.
 > All the stories are merely lies.

You see? You are completely in agreement with me.

That is, a poor, peaceful nation had 100,000 of its
tourists slaughtered ten years ago by a gobal evil
empire bent on worldwide hegemony. Since then, they
have been systematically starved, and now it looks
like they're about to be finished off for good.

OK, now how do you defend yourself against this empire?
Obviously living in peace is not enough, since Iraq has
been perfectly good and kind and peaceful, but still
faces destruction.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Programmer Dude]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

> Look carefully. What happen to this world now actually exist in C.L.A.
> but on a different scale. C culture often conflicts with Ada's.
> Western culture often conflicts with the eastern, particularly the
> middle east. How often western leader can accomodate the feeling of
> people with cultural differences? That's the source of the problem.

Nonsense.  The Western world tries hard to accomodate others.

The "source of the problem" is when the believers in one "language"
have the idea that, if you don't fully believe in the *exact* dialect
of *their* language, you deserve to die, *and* they are willing to
see if they can't implement that idea.

We "westerns"--who largely do believe in multi-culteralism--feel that's
going just a bit over the line.

-- 
|_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|



Opinions expressed here are my own and may not represent those of my employer.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Wouldn't the world a better place to live if human
 > has no greed for $$$ and power?

It would also be a better place if we all had powder-blue
fairy wings and could flit about the sky. Mistaking fantasy
for reality has a terrible cost, often in lives.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[John English]

Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> > The fact is that it is hard to bring down North Korea.
> 
> Mostly, it's that South Korea is unenthusiastic about
> starting a war in their backyard.

In the same way that most countries in the Middle East and Europe
are unenthusiastic about starting a war in Iraq?

Bush considers N.Korea part of his "axis of evil", and we *know*
that N.Korea has nuclear weapons (and missiles to put them on).
Perhaps he's not planning to invade N.Korea because it's not a
soft enough target -- or because it doesn't have any oil reserves
worth taking?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 John English              | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk
 Senior Lecturer           | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je
 Dept. of Computing        | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS **
 University of Brighton    |    -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

John English wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>>Mostly, it's that South Korea is unenthusiastic about
>>starting a war in their backyard.
> 
> In the same way that most countries in the Middle East and Europe
> are unenthusiastic about starting a war in Iraq?

NK and SK share a border, and SK are our allies.
Iraq is not in the same geographical situation.
And as I said, and you ignored, NK has not recently
indulged in large-scale cross-border adventurism.

> Perhaps he's not planning to invade N.Korea because it's not a
> soft enough target

Maybe he's afraid of accidentally hitting all the food
shipments we're sending them.

> or because it doesn't have any oil reserves worth taking?

Apparently, you failed to notice that when we kicked Iraq
out of Kuwait, we did not stay behind to take their oil
reserves.

Of course, being blind to reality is the traditional problem
of the radical left.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[chris.danx]

Hyman Rosen wrote:
> John English wrote:
> 
>> In the same way that most countries in the Middle East and Europe
>> are unenthusiastic about starting a war in Iraq?
> 
> 
> NK and SK share a border, and SK are our allies.
> Iraq is not in the same geographical situation.
> And as I said, and you ignored, NK has not recently
> indulged in large-scale cross-border adventurism.

And Iraq has?  Once perhaps and got it's ass kicked 13 years ago, but 
when was it doing so recently?  Ooh I forgot the terrorists who'll use 
countries the US, UK and USSR f****d with as a based of ops (Iraq, Iran, 
Afghanistan, ...) - we messed them up in the first place, now we're 
going back to do it again, to create more widows and orphans who will 
blame us for the dead.  We are told they're using it but by governments 
with vested interests and little proof


>> Perhaps he's not planning to invade N.Korea because it's not a
>> soft enough target
> 
> 
> Maybe he's afraid of accidentally hitting all the food
> shipments we're sending them.

Or accidently bringing S Korea in and making a bloody mess of two 
countries instead of one (which wouldn't look good on his nice clean 
resume).


>> or because it doesn't have any oil reserves worth taking?
> 
> 
> Apparently, you failed to notice that when we kicked Iraq
> out of Kuwait, we did not stay behind to take their oil
> reserves.


America didn't need Oil back then, it had plenty.  Oil reserves and 
sources are drying up all over the place now and he needs to beef up 
supplies and sources now that the Arab nations are realising US and 
European dependance on it.  Also Kuwait was the victim and if the US had 
taken there oil, they'd be as bad as him so they wouldn't have done it. 
  Now they need Oil and want to make some cash so they start a war.


 > Of course, being blind to reality is the traditional problem
 > of the radical left.

And of yourself.  You ignore you're countries dependance on oil and the 
fact that almost every high level official connected to the WH has an 
interest in oil (look at the people he put in place).  You blindly trust 
your government and question not their motives.  You ignore the fact 
that Iraq could bring other arab nations in to the fight and start a 
bloodbath if they're prevoked.  Remember Saddam is a nutter and if he is 
pushed he might just do something nasty to Israel and f**k the 
consequences (remember nutters' aren't rationale beings).  Especially if 
he's not gonna be around to see the aftermath (a final finger up to 
America perhaps).

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

chris.danx wrote:
>  Once perhaps and got it's ass kicked 13 years ago

There's an amusing article in the New York Times today about
the Mother of All Battles mosque in Iraq. It has minarets
shaped like Scud missilies and Kalashnikov barrels. It's a
very nice bit of Orwellian "defeat is victory".

> Or accidently bringing S Korea in and making a bloody mess of two 
> countries instead of one (which wouldn't look good on his nice clean 
> resume).

So apparently all you liberal folks are in agreement that it's
NK's mighty armed forces which are keeping the US at bay. Kind
of stands pacifism on its head, though.

> America ... war.

Doesn't your brain hurt when you twist it into knots like that?

> You ignore you're countries dependance on oil

That's "your".
I'm not ignoring anything. It's certainly a main reason for the
interest and concern of the whole world in that area. But there's
nothing wrong with being concerned about the supply of a vital
resource. No one, except for perhaps Iraq, is interested in stealing
the region's oil.

> You blindly trust your government and question not their motives.

Their motives are to protect the security and economic interests
of this country, exactly as they should be.

 > You ignore the fact

I'm not ignoring anything. The way to deal with madmen is to kill them.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[John English]

Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
> So apparently all you liberal folks are in agreement that it's
> NK's mighty armed forces which are keeping the US at bay. Kind
> of stands pacifism on its head, though.

Not at all. The point I was trying to make was about the US government's
double standards -- it says Iraq should be regime-changed because it has
ignored UN resolutions (as has Israel), has weapons of mass destruction
(as do Israel, N.Korea, India, Pakistan...), has invaded other countries
(over a decade ago, as have Russia, the US and others), has backed
terrorism (as the US did with the IRA, Contras and others) and is a
dictatorship (as is Pakistan and N.Korea)... but only Iraq out of all
these gets slated for regime change.

Other possibilities have been suggested as motives (to gain control
of Iraqi oil; to distract attention from the mess that remaining in
Afghanistan; to get Bush re-elected in a frenzy of patriotic fervour;
to distract attention from the continuing failure to nobble Osama bin
Laden); and personally, I find these a lot more credible than the
ostensible reasons that the White House is giving out.

Meanwhile we have the government of the land of life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness being responsible for execution without trial of
some people in a jeep in Yemen, who they claim were some of Osama's
big cheeses (hard to verify now!) and hundreds more are locked up in
Cuba with neither trial, access to a lawyer or even the protection of
the Geneva Convention.

So it appears to many outside the US that the US government is acting,
not as a global policeman, but as a global school bully. It seems to
believe that it can imprison foreign nationals without trial, tear
up international treaties, and impose "regime change" on foreign
states (even if democratically elected, as in Chile) if it feels like
it. In the light of all this, you should perhaps try harder to
understand
why the rest of the world finds it easy to mistrust the US government's
motives. (Note that I distinguish the US goverment from its citizens --
why, some of my best friends are Americans... ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 John English              | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk
 Senior Lecturer           | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je
 Dept. of Computing        | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS **
 University of Brighton    |    -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

John English wrote:
 > but only Iraq out of all these gets slated for regime change.

For now, John, for now... :-)

> I find these a lot more credible than the
> ostensible reasons that the White House is giving out.

But that's because you're already predisposed to dislike
the US government and believe the worst about it.

> execution without trial of some people in a jeep in Yemen

Certainly. That's pretty much the definition of war.

> and hundreds more are locked up in Cuba with neither trial,
 > access to a lawyer or even the protection of the Geneva Convention.

Sure. More war stuff. I believe they're occasionally visited by
the Red Cross, and are able to mail letters out.

> a global school bully

Rather, we are acting unilaterally in our own interests,
attempting to ferret out those we see as ideological
fellow travelers of the people who attacked us.

> It seems to believe that it can imprison foreign nationals without trial

We can. We have.

> tear up international treaties

If we can enter into them, I don't see why we can't exit them.

> and impose "regime change" on foreign states
 > (even if democratically elected, as in Chile)

Well, we can try. It doesn't always work out well.
I assume we did it in Chile to fight Communism.
That's not an unreasonable thing to do, since that
was the great evil of its day. Democracy is only a
good way of running things when it's associated with
a constitutional system protecting everyone. For
instance the hardline Hindu nationalist BJP party
was just overwhelmingly elected in Gujarat. That
might be democratic, but somehow I doubt that the
Muslim minority will take any comfort.

> the world finds it easy to mistrust the US

The world assumes that it can heap calumny and abuse
upon the US without consequence, and for the most part
it is correct. Then it becomes shocked when the US does
begin to exert its power becuase something has finally
roused it. It reminds me of when Argentina thought it
could just go and take the Falkland Islands away from
England.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[John English]

Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
> John English wrote:
> 
> > execution without trial of some people in a jeep in Yemen
> 
> Certainly. That's pretty much the definition of war.

Sorry, remind me which country the US has declared war against?

> > and hundreds more are locked up in Cuba with neither trial,
>  > access to a lawyer or even the protection of the Geneva Convention.
> 
> Sure. More war stuff. I believe they're occasionally visited by
> the Red Cross, and are able to mail letters out.

I thought "war stuff" meant "Geneva Convention" stuff...

> > It seems to believe that it can imprison foreign nationals without trial
> 
> We can. We have.

The Nazis believed it could gas Jews -- and did so. It
doesn't make it right, as they found out at Nuremburg.

> > tear up international treaties
> 
> If we can enter into them, I don't see why we can't exit them.

You have some very strange ideas. Signing a treaty is like
signing a contract -- you are entering into a binding
obligation. If treaties weren't binding, there would be no
poinr in negotiating them. However, it would be nicer if
I lived on your planet -- I could just abrogate my credit
card contract ("I entered it, so I can exit it") and refuse
to pay.

> > and impose "regime change" on foreign states
>  > (even if democratically elected, as in Chile)
> 
> I assume we did it in Chile to fight Communism.
> That's not an unreasonable thing to do, since that
> was the great evil of its day.

You may well disagree with it as a political system, but if
the citizens of another country vote for a different political
system from your own, that's surely up to them. To believe that
the US has an absolute right to veto the result of elections held
in foreign countries smacks of dictatorship rather than democracy...
but I'm beginning to realise that you feel OK about that, as long
as you're on the side of the dictators rather than being one of the
dictatees; and that's exactly the sort of double standard I was
talking about earlier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 John English              | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk
 Senior Lecturer           | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je
 Dept. of Computing        | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS **
 University of Brighton    |    -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

John English wrote:
> Sorry, remind me which country the US has declared war against?

No country. We are at war with the ideological fellow travelers
of the people who attacked us on September 11, 2001. That means,
among other things, carrying out targeted killings against enemy
combatants in whatever country they happen to be, using our own
definition of enemy combatant. (A working definition is "anyone
that our government decides needs killing".)

> I thought "war stuff" meant "Geneva Convention" stuff...

Nope. It's whatever the strong want to do. Geneva conventions
are for strong countries to use to badger weak ones into behaving
the way they want.

> The Nazis believed it could gas Jews -- and did so. It
> doesn't make it right, as they found out at Nuremburg.

As I said. War crime trials are imposed by victors upon
the vanquished. If the Nazis had won, or there had been
a negotiated peace instead of an outright victory, those
trials would never have happened.

> Signing a treaty is like signing a contract

No. The difference between a treaty and a contract,
at least for strong nations, is that there is no
higher authority to whom to appeal in order to
enforce the treaty. Therefore, if it is in a
country's perceived best interests to stop
participating in a treaty, it can do so. It simply
accepts the consequences, which are presumably
preferable to the consequences of upholding the
treaty.

> You may well disagree with it as a political system, but if
> the citizens of another country vote for a different political
> system from your own, that's surely up to them.

See Nazis and Nurmeberg trials, above.

There is no reason to permit someone to drill holes in
their side of the lifeboat.

> To believe that the US has an absolute right to veto the result
 > of elections held in foreign countries smacks of dictatorship
 > rather than democracy...

Yes, that's pretty much why we don't care when the rest of the
world complains about the actions of our elected president.

> but I'm beginning to realise that you feel OK about that, as long
> as you're on the side of the dictators rather than being one of the
> dictatees

I'm OK with that as long as we use our powers for good instead
of for evil, for our own definitions of good and evil.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[tmoran]

> There is no reason to permit someone to drill holes in
> their side of the lifeboat.
  It might be wise to find out if they are installing a mast and sail.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Michael Bode]

Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:

> Yes, that's pretty much why we don't care when the rest of the
> world complains about the actions of our elected president.

But doesn't the term 'election' usually imply that the guy with the 
most votes wins? 

-- 
Michael Bode
Rhens

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Michael Bode wrote:
> But doesn't the term 'election' usually imply that the guy with the 
> most votes wins? 

The U.S. electoral system is designed to balance the interests
of the large but sparsely populated regions of the country with
the more densely populated areas.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[James S. Rogers]

"Michael Bode" <m.g.bode@web.de> wrote in message
news:m3hed9fxif.fsf@320025674319-0001.dialin.t-online.de...
> Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
>
> > Yes, that's pretty much why we don't care when the rest of the
> > world complains about the actions of our elected president.
>
> But doesn't the term 'election' usually imply that the guy with the
> most votes wins?

The guy with the most votes did win.
In the US presidential election direct votes of the populace
actually elect electors for the Electoral College. The sole
job of the Electoral College is to elect the president. Each state
gets as many votes as the number of Congressional represenatatives
for that state. In effect, the president is elected by the States.

This is how Bill Clinton could claim a victory two times without
ever getting over 45% of the popular vote. He got the vast
majority of Electoral College votes.

Jim Rogers

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Michael Bode]

"James S. Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> writes:

> In the US presidential election direct votes of the populace
> actually elect electors for the Electoral College. The sole
> job of the Electoral College is to elect the president. Each state
> gets as many votes as the number of Congressional represenatatives
> for that state. In effect, the president is elected by the States.

Yes that's an indirect system. But I remember there was a dispute on
which votes were to be counted and which were to be discarded. AFAIK
they were ordered by court to stop counting as long as Bush was in
front.

-- 
Michael Bode
Rhens

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Michael Bode wrote:
> Yes that's an indirect system. But I remember there was a dispute on
> which votes were to be counted and which were to be discarded. AFAIK
> they were ordered by court to stop counting as long as Bush was in
> front.

It rather reminded me of the sport of curling, where the players
sweep the ice with brooms in order to divert the path of a heavy
stone. It should come as no surprise that in gathering tens of
millions of votes there are breakdowns and difficulties that cause
some votes to be lost or miscounted. In an election as close as
this one was, those votes appear to disproportionally affect the
results. Basically, the vote was as close to a tie as could be, so
either man could legitimately have been elected. Now that one is in
office, he will be judged by his performance, and reelected or not.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Michael Bode wrote:

> "James S. Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>In the US presidential election direct votes of the populace
>>actually elect electors for the Electoral College. The sole
>>job of the Electoral College is to elect the president. Each state
>>gets as many votes as the number of Congressional represenatatives
>>for that state. In effect, the president is elected by the States.
>>
> 
> Yes that's an indirect system. But I remember there was a dispute on
> which votes were to be counted and which were to be discarded. AFAIK
> they were ordered by court to stop counting as long as Bush was in
> front.
> 
> 


Ha! Democracy.

-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Ha! Democracy.

Democracy wasn't at issue, just vote counting disputes.
They need to be adjudicated somehow, and naturally the
losers will cry foul. The race was as close to 50-50 as
you could get, so it could just as well have been decided
by a coin flip.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
: Therefore, if it is in a
: country's perceived best interests to [...]
: [...]
: as long as we use our powers for good instead
: of for evil, for our own definitions of good and evil.

At least this is an honest statement, of the sort I rarely
see in the headlines, unfortunately.

The US (and allies) did something to stop the evil in Germany (and
elsewhere), and we are lucky they did. But it took some time until
they started.  Could they have started earlier, differently? AFAIK,
there had been little interest or awareness to get involved, until...
But, ported to our days, this openes the door to a discussion of
the continuing failures of international politics.

The difficult part for me now is to reconcile some of the current
rhetoric of US government officials, and what they may be planning
to do.  The rhetoric occasionally appeals to moral positions of
some generality, but what they say they will be doing is
a/ very specifically directed towards singled out "instances", and
b/ leaves other "instances of evil" comparatively untouched.
as John has explained.

I think it will help if there were more official statements
explaining US initiatives, like yours.

Then we would possibly find sentences of more earthly terms.
Like _not_ saying, or writing, "Nation X is evil", but
"Government X does Y to the people of Z, and it does A to O,
so what should O be doing? Is there anything that the people
of Z can do?"

I think this implies that the speaker/author distinguishes government
X and the people of Z, giving them a chance not to feel hurt. Feeling
hurt being one source of unleashed nationalism or current equivalents
thereof.

-- Georg

RE: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Smooth Sailor]

 
> "Why do so many people hate America."
> 
> Ignorance.  Honestly, hatred of people of whom you do not 
> know can only be the result of ignorance.  It is irrational 
> to hate a country. It may be rational to oppose a 
> government's policies or an individual actions, but to hate a 
> group of people is simply irrational and the first step 
> towards handing out blanket judgements.

I don't understand your claim that is irrational to hate a country.
Many (including me) *love* America, so why can't it be hated by others.

I believe we (America) have done many things to engender hatred from
people in other countries.  We have gone in places that were not our
country and coerced, forced, and killed to get our way.  I'm not talking
about "wars", and not even the "war" on terrorism.  I'm talking
Nicaragua, Somalia, and various middle east countries.  

Yes we have also done a lot to love.  But I don't consider it irrational
for someone to hate a country or a government that has killed their
family or taken their land and made them refugees or propped up a puppet
government their country that did those things.  It actually seems
rather rational.

I believe as part of my love of America I need to ask "Why do so many
people hate America." and even more, try to *hear* what the response is.
It doesn't weaken me or America to listen.  We need to mend our ways
when we do hateful things, and the first step is understanding those
things.

Sweeping such questions away with the claim of "ignorance" or
"irrationality" begs the question. 

There are legitimate reasons for dislike and even hatred of America.  If
you truly love America (as I do), then you will want to take steps to
eliminate any unnecessary actions that engender hatred of this great
country. 

(Now we can debate what actions are *necessary* and what actions are
not. :-) )

Oh, by the way, hating (or loving) America does not justify vicious acts
against innocents, whatever country they are from (America, Somalia,
Afghanistan etc.).  Retribution against people who have visited violence
against us is semi-defensible, but when taken to extreme (going beyond
simple defense) it just escalates.  One of the parties has to
de-escalate the actions and that party is the morally stronger one.  I'd
like America to be the morally stronger party in this world of
escalating violence.

> >    "What have America done to the world."
> 
> Furthermore, what has the world done to itself?

This is too defensive for my blood.  We are arguably the strongest
nation in the world.  I believe that makes it incumbent on ourselves to
lead the way by doing the right thing, not blaming others, nor trying to
justify past errors that are unjustifiable.  Personally, I like to take
responsibility for my actions and, when necessary, make it right.  I'd
like America to do so as well.

> The American governments have made mistakes, but they have 
> also benefited the world significantly.

We seem to be making more mistakes lately.  Our focus on eliminating the
negative (as we perceive it), rather than emphasizing the positive, has
actually created more negatives, not less.

Some day this great nation will grow up and become a responsible world
citizen rather than just the strongest nation that can push others to
our will.  I intend to work towards that goal because I think America is
worth it.  Time will tell.  

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:28:05 -0600, "Smooth Sailor" <smsail@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>We seem to be making more mistakes lately.  Our focus on eliminating the
>negative (as we perceive it), rather than emphasizing the positive, has
>actually created more negatives, not less.

What you perceive as positive might be very negative from Laden's
point of view.

America is hated for not what it does, but merely because it exists.
True is also, that America still exists because it keeps doing as it
did before. Further it is not in America's power to change the world.
More it will try to change something [in no matter which direction]
more the world will hate America.

>Some day this great nation will grow up and become a responsible world
>citizen rather than just the strongest nation that can push others to
>our will.

Could you name one "responsible world citizen", a nation, a shiny
example that should lead America? I am afraid, there is no one.

And what is more important is that citizens of the world are not
nations, but *free* individuals.

>I intend to work towards that goal because I think America is
>worth it.  Time will tell.  

That's a dangerous delusion. Observe the history of the educated
classes in Russia of XIX century. They destroyed both themselves and
the country.

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Preben Randhol]

Dmitry A Kazakov wrote:
> 
> America is hated for not what it does, but merely because it exists.

This is a simple yet wrong answer that many seem to like because it
removes any indication that USA have done things in the past and present
that was wrong. For example what did USA do the 11. september in Chile.
No I'm not talking about the recent 11. September, but one several years
before. Who put Saddam where he is? My only point is that I think it
would be more fruitful if USA reviewed it's role in history and the
present and perhaps realised that things have to change. Bombing
Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, North-Korea etc... won't solve the problem.

> True is also, that America still exists because it keeps doing as it
> did before. Further it is not in America's power to change the world.
> More it will try to change something [in no matter which direction]
> more the world will hate America.

But it is in USAs power to participate. Something USA has not done much
the last years.

But this is not related to Ada so I'll stop here.
-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> 
> This is a simple yet wrong answer that many seem to like because it
> removes any indication that USA have done things in the past and present
> that was wrong. For example what did USA do the 11. september in Chile.
> No I'm not talking about the recent 11. September, but one several years
> before. Who put Saddam where he is? My only point is that I think it
> would be more fruitful if USA reviewed it's role in history and the
> present and perhaps realised that things have to change. Bombing
> Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, North-Korea etc... won't solve the problem.
> 


Agreed whole heartedly. And the world could be better.

-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Preben Randhol wrote:
>> Bombing... won't solve the problem.
> 
> Agreed whole heartedly. And the world could be better.

I am right now looking at my wall calendar from Despair, Inc.
December's statement is "Demotivation: Sometimes the best
solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy
people". And from another source, "And why beholdest thou the
mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam
that is in thine own eye?". Perhaps these other countries should
follow the example of France, which continues to believe in its
own superiority despite all evidence to the contrary.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:28:05 -0600, "Smooth Sailor" <smsail@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>We seem to be making more mistakes lately.  Our focus on eliminating the
>>negative (as we perceive it), rather than emphasizing the positive, has
>>actually created more negatives, not less.
>>
> 
> What you perceive as positive might be very negative from Laden's
> point of view.
> 
> America is hated for not what it does, but merely because it exists.
> True is also, that America still exists because it keeps doing as it
> did before. Further it is not in America's power to change the world.
> More it will try to change something [in no matter which direction]
> more the world will hate America.


Chad quoted:

"Furthermore, what has the world done to itself? The American 
governments have made mistakes, but they have also benefited the world 
significantly."

And I quote:

"And they make more and bigger mistakes to cover those."

Doesn't it sound similar to "C/C++"?

The hatred began when the Palestinians were forced out of their homes 
and lands to give way to a new country.

Wasn't America the home of Indians? And they were forced to share 
their lands. Why the Indians weren't given a country of their own? 
How will you feel if you are forced out of your home and land to other 
people? How do you feel?

I personally, think that the hatred had been ignited too long before.

And one more thing, "The oil is thicker than blood!" That's GREED!

Just wish everything is as simple as just a language war.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:57:47 +0800, Adrian Hoe
<mailbox@*nospam*adrianhoe.com> wrote:

>Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:28:05 -0600, "Smooth Sailor" <smsail@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>We seem to be making more mistakes lately.  Our focus on eliminating the
>>>negative (as we perceive it), rather than emphasizing the positive, has
>>>actually created more negatives, not less.
>>>
>> 
>> What you perceive as positive might be very negative from Laden's
>> point of view.
>> 
>> America is hated for not what it does, but merely because it exists.
>> True is also, that America still exists because it keeps doing as it
>> did before. Further it is not in America's power to change the world.
>> More it will try to change something [in no matter which direction]
>> more the world will hate America.
>
>Chad quoted:
>
>"Furthermore, what has the world done to itself? The American 
>governments have made mistakes, but they have also benefited the world 
>significantly."
>
>And I quote:
>
>"And they make more and bigger mistakes to cover those."
>
>Doesn't it sound similar to "C/C++"?

Sort of, especially if one considers the role of gcc for GNAT Ada!
(:-))

>The hatred began when the Palestinians were forced out of their homes 
>and lands to give way to a new country.

Known history of Palestine counts at least 6000 years. Who counted all
those forced from their homes before?

Weren't our remote ancestors eaten by T-Rex?

Should we continue back to the times of bacteria?

>Wasn't America the home of Indians? And they were forced to share 
>their lands. Why the Indians weren't given a country of their own? 

Given by whom? Who is in charge to decide that? Roman-catolic church?
America? UN? There is no solution for that.

Because there is no nation rights without holocausts. There can be
only human rights.

>How will you feel if you are forced out of your home and land to other 
>people? How do you feel?

Again who is to judge? It is so that many people claim same homes and
lands their own. Should it mean that all they have a right to hijack
jets and kill other people? If so, then indeed to be right is to have
a bigger clumb. So far America has the biggest one.

>I personally, think that the hatred had been ignited too long before.

The hatred was not ignited, it existed always and will exist for a
long period of time. We must fight the hatred, not the people who hate
or are being hated.

>And one more thing, "The oil is thicker than blood!" That's GREED!

>Just wish everything is as simple as just a language war.

That's a good point, let's stop playing Gods solving worlds problems
as easy as Windows crashes. There are enough Ada problems ...

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Smooth Sailor" <smsail@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1039145222.21352.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
>
> > "Why do so many people hate America."
> >
> > Ignorance.  Honestly, hatred of people of whom you do not
> > know can only be the result of ignorance.  It is irrational
> > to hate a country. It may be rational to oppose a
> > government's policies or an individual actions, but to hate a
> > group of people is simply irrational and the first step
> > towards handing out blanket judgements.
>
> I don't understand your claim that is irrational to hate a country.
> Many (including me) *love* America, so why can't it be hated by others.

It is irrational to hate such a large group of people just as it is
irrational to love such a large group of people.  Do you honestly love every
single American?  If so, does every American deserve your love?  Treating
someone with love who does not deserve love is less of a problem than
treating some with hate that does not deserve hate.

> I believe we (America) have done many things to engender hatred from
> people in other countries.  We have gone in places that were not our
> country and coerced, forced, and killed to get our way.  I'm not talking
> about "wars", and not even the "war" on terrorism.  I'm talking
> Nicaragua, Somalia, and various middle east countries.

No, we (as in all Americans) have not!  Only a small number of people can be
held directly responsible for mistakes and wrongs.  Is it correct to hold
children in a country responsible for their government's actions?  No, it is
not since they cannot prevent the government's actions.  If someone has a
grievance with the American government, let them bring the grievance, but do
not excuse their hatred of innocent people.  Such hatred is misdirected and
the cause of many problems.

> Yes we have also done a lot to love.  But I don't consider it irrational
> for someone to hate a country or a government that has killed their
> family or taken their land and made them refugees or propped up a puppet
> government their country that did those things.  It actually seems
> rather rational.

If someone has a grievance, they should raise it and seek just
reconciliation.  There is no excuse for misdirected hatred.

> I believe as part of my love of America I need to ask "Why do so many
> people hate America." and even more, try to *hear* what the response is.
> It doesn't weaken me or America to listen.  We need to mend our ways
> when we do hateful things, and the first step is understanding those
> things.

You are implying that I am dismissing the issue; I was not dismissing the
issue.  I stated that most people hate due to ignorance.  I stand by this
statement.

> Sweeping such questions away with the claim of "ignorance" or
> "irrationality" begs the question.

It does no such thing!  Do you know what begging the question is?  I'll give
you an example, Preben's original question,
"Why do so many people hate America?"  This is begging the question because
it implies that "so many people hate America" as if it were a fact.  It
maybe be a fact or it may not be a fact since the statement is ambiguous.
Another example of begging the question would be "Have you stopped beating
your dog?" which implies the fact that 'you' owns a dog and 'you' beats that
dog.  The point of begging the question is to defame the subject of the
question without directly accusing them.  It is mainly a trick to exploit
those ignorance of logical reasoning.

> There are legitimate reasons for dislike and even hatred of America.  If
> you truly love America (as I do), then you will want to take steps to
> eliminate any unnecessary actions that engender hatred of this great
> country.

Wow, that is a loaded statement.  I never said anything about not listening
to people or dismissing them.  You are putting words into my mouth.  You
have already chosen to judge me without knowing anything about me other than
I stated that most hatred is caused by ignorance.  You have provided
yourself as the perfect example of the irrational conclusions one can come
to when in a state of ignorance about a subject.

> > >    "What have America done to the world."
> >
> > Furthermore, what has the world done to itself?
>
> This is too defensive for my blood.

It is not defensive.  I was merely indicating that all who judge should also
submit themselves for judgment.  All grievances are complex issues.  You
cannot simply just judge one country alone because you will lose the context
which is necessary to understand the truth (if the truth can even be
obtained).

> We are arguably the strongest
> nation in the world.  I believe that makes it incumbent on ourselves to
> lead the way by doing the right thing, not blaming others, nor trying to
> justify past errors that are unjustifiable.  Personally, I like to take
> responsibility for my actions and, when necessary, make it right.  I'd
> like America to do so as well.

Likewise, I, as a person, try to act in a just manner.  It is important to
note that America is a government that does take responsibility for its
actions.  You can peacefully bring grievous to its elected representatives
and courts.

> > The American governments have made mistakes, but they have
> > also benefited the world significantly.
>
> We seem to be making more mistakes lately.  Our focus on eliminating the
> negative (as we perceive it), rather than emphasizing the positive, has
> actually created more negatives, not less.

You are stating an opinion not a fact.

> Some day this great nation will grow up and become a responsible world
> citizen rather than just the strongest nation that can push others to
> our will.  I intend to work towards that goal because I think America is
> worth it.  Time will tell.

Perhaps you should instead take up the fight against ignorance.  Logic is to
reasoning as Ada is to programming ;-)

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Chad R. Meiners wrote:

> "Smooth Sailor" <smsail@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1039145222.21352.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> 
>>>"Why do so many people hate America."
>>>
>>>Ignorance.  Honestly, hatred of people of whom you do not
>>
> 
> It is irrational to hate such a large group of people just as it is
> irrational to love such a large group of people.  Do you honestly love every
> single American?  If so, does every American deserve your love?  Treating
> someone with love who does not deserve love is less of a problem than
> treating some with hate that does not deserve hate.
> 
> 
>>I believe we (America) have done many things to engender hatred from
>>people in other countries.  We have gone in places that were not our
>>country and coerced, forced, and killed to get our way.  I'm not talking
>>about "wars", and not even the "war" on terrorism.  I'm talking
>>Nicaragua, Somalia, and various middle east countries.
>>
> 
> No, we (as in all Americans) have not!  Only a small number of people can be
> held directly responsible for mistakes and wrongs.  Is it correct to hold
> children in a country responsible for their government's actions?  No, it is
> not since they cannot prevent the government's actions.  If someone has a
> grievance with the American government, let them bring the grievance, but do
> not excuse their hatred of innocent people.  Such hatred is misdirected and
> the cause of many problems.
> 
> 
> Likewise, I, as a person, try to act in a just manner.  It is important to
> note that America is a government that does take responsibility for its
> actions.  You can peacefully bring grievous to its elected representatives
> and courts.
> 


But, largely, the adult American can take actions using their votes. 
They used their votes to bring down Mr. Carter (he received Nobel 
Peace price recently) many years ago. Now, they can do it again to 
bring down this cow boy.

I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film 
on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium 
bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with 
radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5 
years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs 
in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.

Is it fair that the US can use any kind of nuclear weapons on its so 
called enemies and the enemies are not allowed to? What use we have UN 
and no nude treaties? Bullshit!

Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the 
barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military 
campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist 
establishment. They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from 
high above the sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of 
the attacked contries.

Can you do this to the people of that country and provide them 
technology after the war? What use? If I lost my children and home, I 
would rather have blood to pay for blood. This is never ending story 
and terrorism will go on and on forever. I hope this is not going to 
happen on me. But no one can guarantee my hope will not be shattered 
one day. Who is going to be responsible if they turn me into a 
terrorist? If I have children at home, do you think I want to have 
explosive tied to my body and turn myself into suicide bomber? Think!

I will if this happens on me. I defended myself against six gang 
members at my door front one night many years ago empty handedly. And 
I will do it again at any cost if my family and I are in danger. This 
is human nature and so called the male responsibilities. Will you? Think!

If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of 
intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down 
the cow boy!

Or, the existence of Ada programming language is very wrong in the 
first place because many so called reliable and precision weapons are 
programmed in Ada. Or should Ada programming language be responsible 
for the chaos? Or may be the invention of microprocessor? Or the 
technology? If technology wouldn't exist today, war is merely a face 
to face fighting.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Chad R. Meiners wrote:

> "Smooth Sailor" <smsail@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1039145222.21352.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> 
>>>"Why do so many people hate America."
>>>
>>>Ignorance.  Honestly, hatred of people of whom you do not
>>
> 
> It is irrational to hate such a large group of people just as it is
> irrational to love such a large group of people.  Do you honestly love every
> single American?  If so, does every American deserve your love?  Treating
> someone with love who does not deserve love is less of a problem than
> treating some with hate that does not deserve hate.
> 
> 
>>I believe we (America) have done many things to engender hatred from
>>people in other countries.  We have gone in places that were not our
>>country and coerced, forced, and killed to get our way.  I'm not talking
>>about "wars", and not even the "war" on terrorism.  I'm talking
>>Nicaragua, Somalia, and various middle east countries.
>>
> 
> No, we (as in all Americans) have not!  Only a small number of people can be
> held directly responsible for mistakes and wrongs.  Is it correct to hold
> children in a country responsible for their government's actions?  No, it is
> not since they cannot prevent the government's actions.  If someone has a
> grievance with the American government, let them bring the grievance, but do
> not excuse their hatred of innocent people.  Such hatred is misdirected and
> the cause of many problems.
> 
> 
> Likewise, I, as a person, try to act in a just manner.  It is important to
> note that America is a government that does take responsibility for its
> actions.  You can peacefully bring grievous to its elected representatives
> and courts.
> 


But, largely, the adult American can take actions using their votes. 
They used their votes to bring down Mr. Carter (he received Nobel 
Peace price recently) many years ago. Now, they can do it again to 
bring down this cow boy.

I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film 
on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium 
bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with 
radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5 
years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs 
in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.

Is it fair that the US can use any kind of nuclear weapons on its so 
called enemies and the enemies are not allowed to? What use we have UN 
and no nude treaties? Bullshit!

Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the 
barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military 
campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist 
establishment. They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from 
high above the sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of 
the attacked contries.

Can you do this to the people of that country and provide them 
technology after the war? What use? If I lost my children and home, I 
would rather have blood to pay for blood. This is never ending story 
and terrorism will go on and on forever. I hope this is not going to 
happen on me. But no one can guarantee my hope will not be shattered 
one day. Who is going to be responsible if they turn me into a 
terrorist? If I have children at home, do you think I want to have 
explosive tied to my body and turn myself into suicide bomber? Think!

I will if this happens on me. I defended myself against six gang 
members at my door front one night many years ago empty handedly. And 
I will do it again at any cost if my family and I are in danger. This 
is human nature and so called the male responsibilities. Will you? Think!

If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of 
intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down 
the cow boy!

Or, the existence of Ada programming language is very wrong in the 
first place because many so called reliable and precision weapons are 
programmed in Ada. Or should Ada programming language be responsible 
for the chaos? Or may be the invention of microprocessor? Or the 
technology? If technology wouldn't exist today, war is merely a face 
to face fighting.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Eric G. Miller]

In <3df17093_1@news.tm.net.my>, Adrian Hoe wrote:

> I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film 
> on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium 
> bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with 
> radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5 
> years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs 
> in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.

I was unable to find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in
5 years (as a result of depleted uranium weapons).  Perhaps the
"documentary" confused cholera with cancer?

However, the economic sanctions have been devastatingly successful
(if genocide is the goal).  See http://www.scn.org/ccpi/ for details.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Eric G. Miller wrote:

> In <3df17093_1@news.tm.net.my>, Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
> 
>>I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film 
>>on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium 
>>bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with 
>>radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5 
>>years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs 
>>in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.
>>
> 
> I was unable to find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in
> 5 years (as a result of depleted uranium weapons).  Perhaps the
> "documentary" confused cholera with cancer?


Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in 
western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly it 
is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese website 
but there is an English link. E-mail them for information on Iraqi 
documentary.


> However, the economic sanctions have been devastatingly successful
> (if genocide is the goal).  See http://www.scn.org/ccpi/ for details.

Economic sanctions are inhuman too. That's the best the western power 
can have to squeeze a helpless country to death.

-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[James S. Rogers]

"Adrian Hoe" <mailbox@*nospam*adrianhoe.com> wrote in message
news:3df416e2_2@news.tm.net.my...
> Eric G. Miller wrote:
>
> > In <3df17093_1@news.tm.net.my>, Adrian Hoe wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film
> >>on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium
> >>bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with
> >>radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5
> >>years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs
> >>in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.
> >>
> >
> > I was unable to find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in
> > 5 years (as a result of depleted uranium weapons).  Perhaps the
> > "documentary" confused cholera with cancer?
>
>
> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in
> western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly it
> is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese website
> but there is an English link. E-mail them for information on Iraqi
> documentary.

Nonsense. There is no single entity controlling all Western news.
There are several news organizations that would like to publish
this kind of material if they could verify the information. Remember
that there is no single unified position of Western politics. There are
a lot of opposition groups. Some of them are even funded by the
Chinese.

>
>
> > However, the economic sanctions have been devastatingly successful
> > (if genocide is the goal).  See http://www.scn.org/ccpi/ for details.
>
> Economic sanctions are inhuman too. That's the best the western power
> can have to squeeze a helpless country to death.

When China decides to use its military to take over Formosa do you think
the Chinese media will be a reliable source of information about the
issue? Will it be evil for those living on Formosa to resist the Chinese
military? Will it be evil for the US, Britain, or Australia to support the
residents of Formosa in their resistence to the Chinese?

Jim Rogers

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

> 
> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in 
> western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly it is 
> no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese website but 
> there is an English link. E-mail them for information on Iraqi documentary.



See:

http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html

unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact 
PhoenixTV to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to 
translate them.

I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi 
children having cancer.

-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
>>
>> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in 
>> western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly it 
>> is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese website 
>> but there is an English link. E-mail them for information on Iraqi 
>> documentary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See:
> 
> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html
> 
> unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact PhoenixTV 
> to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to translate them.
> 
> I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi 
> children having cancer.
> 


Here it is:

http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/04.html

also in simplified chinese. Have it translated.

There is a picture of an 8-year-old cancer patient.


Has any western media made similar coverage in Iraq before?


-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Ed Cogburn]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers 
>>> in western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly 
>>> it is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese 
>>> website but there is an English link. E-mail them for information on 
>>> Iraqi documentary.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> See:
>>
>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html
>>
>> unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact 
>> PhoenixTV to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to 
>> translate them.
>>
>> I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi 
>> children having cancer.
>>
> 
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/04.html
> 
> also in simplified chinese. Have it translated.
> 
> There is a picture of an 8-year-old cancer patient.
> 
> 
> Has any western media made similar coverage in Iraq before?


Has it ever occured to you that the Western media has not reported this 
because it isn't true?  Why do you put so much faith into an outlandish story 
for which you have only one source, and untrustworthy source in a communist 
country with substantial emnity towards the US?  Just because you can find it 
on the Internet doesn't mean its true.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Ed Cogburn wrote:

> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>
>>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers 
>>>> in western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly 
>>>> it is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese 
>>>> website but there is an English link. E-mail them for information on 
>>>> Iraqi documentary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See:
>>>
>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html
>>>
>>> unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact 
>>> PhoenixTV to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to 
>>> translate them.
>>>
>>> I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi 
>>> children having cancer.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Here it is:
>>
>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/04.html
>>
>> also in simplified chinese. Have it translated.
>>
>> There is a picture of an 8-year-old cancer patient.
>>
>>
>> Has any western media made similar coverage in Iraq before?
> 
> 
> 
> Has it ever occured to you that the Western media has not reported this 
> because it isn't true?  Why do you put so much faith into an outlandish 
> story for which you have only one source, and untrustworthy source in a 
> communist country with substantial emnity towards the US?  Just because 
> you can find it on the Internet doesn't mean its true.
> 

I watch it on my tv! Their web portal is just an archive. Like cnn. 
Phoenix tv is a fast growing satellite tv station with increasing 
reputation in accurate and responsible reporting. Not only Chinese but 
all Chinese around the world acknowledged that. So, what makes CNN? 
You put so much faith on western media just because it is in the 
western so called liberty country?

Of course, you can choose not to believe the story. If you do, you are 
just ignoring the truth and the real meaning of truth. What has truth 
to do with the source coming from of communist and liberty country?

It is people like you that created the whole trouble!
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> It is people like you that created the whole trouble!

If anyone wonders why George Bush is president and liberals
have been shown the door, the above should make it obvious.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
: Adrian Hoe wrote:
:> It is people like you that created the whole trouble!
: 
: If anyone wonders why George Bush is president and liberals
: have been shown the door, the above should make it obvious.

Obvious that what?

Is's obvious to me that discussions like these will eventually
lead to a form of clamor that has lost substance and reminds me of
primary school. Now in the interest of peace, and trade,
I'm sure you can do better than that.  You might want to sell programs
to each other.
responsable programmers would: look at the code, look at the object
code, draw your conclusions, have someone else look over the code,
etc. etc. Correct errors. Learn. Don't blindly trust your favourite
compiler.

As a further source of information unrelated to Ada, but related
to the strange kinds of logic that appear in this thread's rhetoric,
I've just come across this.
Is there any factual value in it, perhaps to be discussed elsewhere?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002-09-15-election_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2001-03-20-bushfec.htm
http://www.fec.gov/

-- georg

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Wes Groleau]

> I watch it on my tv! Their web portal is just an archive. Like cnn. 

That settles it.  It was on TV, not on the internet.
Therefore it's true.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Ed Cogburn wrote:

> Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>
>>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers 
>>>> in western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly 
>>>> it is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese 
>>>> website but there is an English link. E-mail them for information on 
>>>> Iraqi documentary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See:
>>>
>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html
>>>
>>> unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact 
>>> PhoenixTV to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to 
>>> translate them.
>>>
>>> I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi 
>>> children having cancer.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Here it is:
>>
>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/04.html
>>
>> also in simplified chinese. Have it translated.
>>
>> There is a picture of an 8-year-old cancer patient.
>>
>>
>> Has any western media made similar coverage in Iraq before?
> 
> 
> 
> Has it ever occured to you that the Western media has not reported this 
> because it isn't true?  Why do you put so much faith into an outlandish 
> story for which you have only one source, and untrustworthy source in a 
> communist country with substantial emnity towards the US?  Just because 
> you can find it on the Internet doesn't mean its true.
> 




Hi folks,

I hate to revive this thread. But I have an interesting piece of 
information. This info is going to slap on Ed's face. (No hard 
feeling, Ed ;-)

Today, December 16 2002, George Bush's brother, Neil, visited Phoenix 
TV station in China. He made a statement that China's progress and 
open administration has been recognized.

So, judge yourselves. Ha. :-)
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Ed Cogburn]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> Ed Cogburn wrote:
> 
>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>
>>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers 
>>>>> in western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. 
>>>>> Certainly it is no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a 
>>>>> chinese website but there is an English link. E-mail them for 
>>>>> information on Iraqi documentary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
>>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html
>>>>
>>>> unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact 
>>>> PhoenixTV to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to 
>>>> translate them.
>>>>
>>>> I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi 
>>>> children having cancer.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here it is:
>>>
>>> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/04.html
>>>
>>> also in simplified chinese. Have it translated.
>>>
>>> There is a picture of an 8-year-old cancer patient.
>>>
>>>
>>> Has any western media made similar coverage in Iraq before?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Has it ever occured to you that the Western media has not reported 
>> this because it isn't true?  Why do you put so much faith into an 
>> outlandish story for which you have only one source, and untrustworthy 
>> source in a communist country with substantial emnity towards the US?  
>> Just because you can find it on the Internet doesn't mean its true.
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> I hate to revive this thread. But I have an interesting piece of 
> information. This info is going to slap on Ed's face. (No hard feeling, 
> Ed ;-)
> 
> Today, December 16 2002, George Bush's brother, Neil, visited Phoenix TV 
> station in China. He made a statement that China's progress and open 
> administration has been recognized.
> 
> So, judge yourselves. Ha. :-)



This says nothing about the accuracy of that particular story.  So me credible 
sources for this story outside of a dictatorship or communist country and then 
maybe my face will sting a little.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Ed Cogburn wrote:

>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I hate to revive this thread. But I have an interesting piece of 
>> information. This info is going to slap on Ed's face. (No hard 
>> feeling, Ed ;-)
>>
>> Today, December 16 2002, George Bush's brother, Neil, visited Phoenix 
>> TV station in China. He made a statement that China's progress and 
>> open administration has been recognized.
>>
>> So, judge yourselves. Ha. :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This says nothing about the accuracy of that particular story.  So me 
> credible sources for this story outside of a dictatorship or communist 
> country and then maybe my face will sting a little.
> 


What's truth going to do with communism or capitalism? Truth is truth.
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[P S Norby]

It's on the internet -- it MUST be true!!!
Sheesh!

"Adrian Hoe" <mailbox@*nospam*adrianhoe.com> wrote in message
news:3df41f78_1@news.tm.net.my...
> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>
> >
> > Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in
> > western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly it is
> > no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese website but
> > there is an English link. E-mail them for information on Iraqi
documentary.
>
>
>
> See:
>
> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/01.html
> http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/zhuanti/web/baged/02.html
>
> unfortunately, these pages are in simplified chinese. Contact
> PhoenixTV to have it translated or have someone you "trust" to
> translate them.
>
> I am still looking for article on their website regarding the Iraqi
> children having cancer.
>
> --
> type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
>                                       -- http://adrianhoe.com
>                                       -- Remove *nospam* to email
>

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Wes Groleau]

> Of course you can't find evidence supporting this 1 million cancers in 
> western media. There is cover up of this inhuman thing. Certainly it is 
> no cholera. See http://www.phoenixtv.com. It is a chinese website but 
> there is an English link. E-mail them for information on Iraqi documentary.

Anyone who takes seriously Chinese accusations
against the U.S. would have to be fairly gullible.
However,

>> However, the economic sanctions have been devastatingly successful
>> (if genocide is the goal).  See http://www.scn.org/ccpi/ for details.

The sanctions are a bad idea in my opinion,
because they do not affect the people in power.

America shares the guilt, not because of the sanctions
themselves, but because "we" were naive enough to not
realize Hussein would get what he wanted at the expense
of his own people if he couldn't get it from outside.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Adrian Hoe" <mailbox@*nospam*adrianhoe.com> wrote in message
news:3df17093_1@news.tm.net.my...
> Chad R. Meiners wrote:
>
> But, largely, the adult American can take actions using their votes.
> They used their votes to bring down Mr. Carter (he received Nobel
> Peace price recently) many years ago. Now, they can do it again to
> bring down this cow boy.

You cannot hold an individual voter responsible for the government's actions
because voting is anonymous.

> I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film
> on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium
> bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with
> radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5
> years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs
> in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.

That sounds like a biased news source.  It sounds like you've been mislead.
This is one of the real problems ignorance causes.  People tend to believe
what they want to hear and not question the information sources.  Would you
stop opposing the US if you discovered that this news report isn't true.
No, probably not since it is obvious that you are ready to believe anything
negative about the US.  Look at those statistics; they make no sense.  These
are obvious traits of an unreliable information source.  What is a poor
uranium bomb anyway?  Sounds like a ambiguous term specially developed to
twist the truth and get people's blood boiling.  It sounds like propaganda.

> Is it fair that the US can use any kind of nuclear weapons on its so
> called enemies and the enemies are not allowed to? What use we have UN
> and no nude treaties? Bullshit!
>
> Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the
> barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military
> campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist
> establishment. They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from
> high above the sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of
> the attacked contries.
>
> Can you do this to the people of that country and provide them
> technology after the war? What use? If I lost my children and home, I
> would rather have blood to pay for blood. This is never ending story
> and terrorism will go on and on forever.

No, terrorism goes on and on because ignorance allows people to convince
people to take out their grief and hatred on innocents.

> I hope this is not going to
> happen on me. But no one can guarantee my hope will not be shattered
> one day. Who is going to be responsible if they turn me into a
> terrorist? If I have children at home, do you think I want to have
> explosive tied to my body and turn myself into suicide bomber? Think!

People do not just turn into terrorists.  They choose to become them.  They
make a decision that they are going to get revenge and taking it out on
innocents.  They might rationalize there actions, but they spread misery and
suffering.  If one are going to fight justly, fight the actual enemy; do not
be a coward and kill defenseless innocents.

> I will if this happens on me.

Then you have no compassion for others and are filled with hate.  Who will
you kill first?  Most likely you will kill someone who wasn't even involved
in your tragedy.

> I defended myself against six gang
> members at my door front one night many years ago empty handedly. And
> I will do it again at any cost if my family and I are in danger. This
> is human nature and so called the male responsibilities. Will you? Think!

There is a clear difference between defending your family and seeking
revenge against innocents.

> If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of
> intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down
> the cow boy!

You appeal to everyone else's conscience, but you don't use your own.

> Or, the existence of Ada programming language is very wrong in the
> first place because many so called reliable and precision weapons are
> programmed in Ada. Or should Ada programming language be responsible
> for the chaos? Or may be the invention of microprocessor? Or the
> technology? If technology wouldn't exist today, war is merely a face
> to face fighting.

I would rather the weapon be reliable so there are less innocent casualties
in conflicts.

I would rather not continue this thread since you are not listening to
reason.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[James S. Rogers]

"Chad R. Meiners" <crmeiners@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:asth1t$2udb$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
>
> "Adrian Hoe" <mailbox@*nospam*adrianhoe.com> wrote in message
> news:3df17093_1@news.tm.net.my...
> > Chad R. Meiners wrote:
> >
> > But, largely, the adult American can take actions using their votes.
> > They used their votes to bring down Mr. Carter (he received Nobel
> > Peace price recently) many years ago. Now, they can do it again to
> > bring down this cow boy.
>
> You cannot hold an individual voter responsible for the government's
actions
> because voting is anonymous.
>
> > I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film
> > on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium
> > bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with
> > radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5
> > years time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs
> > in Nagasaki during 2nd world war.

To my knowledge, the only depleted uranium exposure in Iraq was from
the cannon shells fired by the A10 Warthog. These are not bombs. They
were fired mostly at Iraqi tanks. What are 1 million Iraqi children doing
playing in destroyed tanks?

The "bunker buster" bombs used in Iraq contained no depleted
uranium. They were rather hastily constructed by packing explosives
into howitzer cannon barrels. The bombs worked because the
strength of the barrels allowed the bomb to retain is basic shape
while burrowing through several meters of concrete.
>
> That sounds like a biased news source.  It sounds like you've been
mislead.
> This is one of the real problems ignorance causes.  People tend to believe
> what they want to hear and not question the information sources.  Would
you
> stop opposing the US if you discovered that this news report isn't true.
> No, probably not since it is obvious that you are ready to believe
anything
> negative about the US.  Look at those statistics; they make no sense.
These
> are obvious traits of an unreliable information source.  What is a poor
> uranium bomb anyway?  Sounds like a ambiguous term specially developed to
> twist the truth and get people's blood boiling.  It sounds like
propaganda.
>
> > Is it fair that the US can use any kind of nuclear weapons on its so
> > called enemies and the enemies are not allowed to? What use we have UN
> > and no nude treaties? Bullshit!

In fact the US would love to eliminate its nuclear arsenal.
Unfortunately, such a move is impractical when so many countries are
doing their best to increase their own nuclear capability. People who
hate the US today would not stop hating it tomorrow if we destroyed
all our nuclear capability.

> >
> > Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the
> > barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military
> > campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist
> > establishment. They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from
> > high above the sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of
> > the attacked contries.

Be careful of the accusation of cowardice. It is a form of manure
that can be thrown in any direction. What about the cowardice of
organizations that bomb night clubs filled with people?

> >
> > Can you do this to the people of that country and provide them
> > technology after the war? What use? If I lost my children and home, I
> > would rather have blood to pay for blood. This is never ending story
> > and terrorism will go on and on forever.

Look at the hatred in the Middle East. The people there still talk about
revenge for the Crusades of the Middle Ages. They seem to forget that
Europe only sent troops to the area after the Moslims attacked and
destroyed an area occupied mostly by Christians. Apparently, in their
minds, it is evil to resist oppression.

>
> No, terrorism goes on and on because ignorance allows people to convince
> people to take out their grief and hatred on innocents.
>
> > I hope this is not going to
> > happen on me. But no one can guarantee my hope will not be shattered
> > one day. Who is going to be responsible if they turn me into a
> > terrorist? If I have children at home, do you think I want to have
> > explosive tied to my body and turn myself into suicide bomber? Think!

True. I am sure the thousands of people who worked in the World Trade
Center did not want their lives shattered either.  Who is responsible for
turning their families and friends into terrorists?

The only thing that can stop the cycle of terrorism is a belief in a higher
good; something better and more important than revenge. Some
religions offer this. Some do not.

>
> > If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of
> > intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down
> > the cow boy!
>

I do not know any cowboy. The President of the United States is
acting as honorably as any leader can under the circumstances.
He has not acted irrationally since the United States has come under
direct attack. He has been honest, and tough. He has also been
fair. He has given first the Taliban, and now the Iraqi regime,
a bloodless diplomatic way out of the problem. The Taliban chose
war. We will soon see which choice is made by the Iraqi regime.

Jim Rogers

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

James S. Rogers wrote:

> 
> To my knowledge, the only depleted uranium exposure in Iraq was from
> the cannon shells fired by the A10 Warthog. These are not bombs. They
> were fired mostly at Iraqi tanks. What are 1 million Iraqi children doing
> playing in destroyed tanks?
> 
> The "bunker buster" bombs used in Iraq contained no depleted
> uranium. They were rather hastily constructed by packing explosives
> into howitzer cannon barrels. The bombs worked because the
> strength of the barrels allowed the bomb to retain is basic shape
> while burrowing through several meters of concrete.
> 
>>That sounds like a biased news source.  It sounds like you've been
>>
> mislead.
> 




>>This is one of the real problems ignorance causes.  People tend to believe
>>what they want to hear and not question the information sources.  Would
>>
> you
> 
>>stop opposing the US if you discovered that this news report isn't true.
>>No, probably not since it is obvious that you are ready to believe
>>
> anything
> 
>>negative about the US.  Look at those statistics; they make no sense.
>>
> These
> 
>>are obvious traits of an unreliable information source.  What is a poor
>>uranium bomb anyway?  Sounds like a ambiguous term specially developed to
>>twist the truth and get people's blood boiling.  It sounds like
>>
> propaganda.
> 



You could be misled too by your own media. Who knows. God knows. It 
was my mistake to mention "poor uranium". "Depleted uranium" is more 
appropriate. Can you guarantee that your media is not biased? Who can 
guarantee that? Wise people know the intention of US politicians.


> In fact the US would love to eliminate its nuclear arsenal.
> Unfortunately, such a move is impractical when so many countries are
> doing their best to increase their own nuclear capability. People who
> hate the US today would not stop hating it tomorrow if we destroyed
> all our nuclear capability.
> 



I didn't say if US eliminate its nuclear arsenal, hatred will stop.






>>>Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the
>>>barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military
>>>campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist
>>>establishment. They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from
>>>high above the sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of
>>>the attacked contries.
>>>
> 
> Be careful of the accusation of cowardice. It is a form of manure
> that can be thrown in any direction. What about the cowardice of
> organizations that bomb night clubs filled with people?
> 

> 
> Look at the hatred in the Middle East. The people there still talk about
> revenge for the Crusades of the Middle Ages. They seem to forget that
> Europe only sent troops to the area after the Moslims attacked and
> destroyed an area occupied mostly by Christians. Apparently, in their
> minds, it is evil to resist oppression.
> 
> 
>>No, terrorism goes on and on because ignorance allows people to convince
>>people to take out their grief and hatred on innocents.
>>
>>
>>>I hope this is not going to
>>>happen on me. But no one can guarantee my hope will not be shattered
>>>one day. Who is going to be responsible if they turn me into a
>>>terrorist? If I have children at home, do you think I want to have
>>>explosive tied to my body and turn myself into suicide bomber? Think!
>>>
> 
> True. I am sure the thousands of people who worked in the World Trade
> Center did not want their lives shattered either.  Who is responsible for
> turning their families and friends into terrorists?
>
> The only thing that can stop the cycle of terrorism is a belief in a higher
> good; something better and more important than revenge. Some
> religions offer this. Some do not.
> 



Exactly my intention. Who is the coward? You want to fight the war but 
don't want to see your men and women killed on the battle field. Don't 
  go to war. It needs great courage to be a suicide bomber. I don't 
agree to their acts. I would say they have used their courage on the 
wrong side. But, what choice do they have? They don't have technology. 
They dare to go to war in person.

What is your belief in a higher good? The most powerful man in the 
world keeps on saying "We fight for freedom!"? The liberty? The oil? 
The US$? Global marketing? Global power? Global dominance?

After Sept 11, only the emotion and feeling of the survivors were 
screened on CNN. What about the feeling of people in Afganistan, 
Palestine, and Iraq when they dropped tonnes of explosive onto thier home?


>>>If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of
>>>intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down
>>>the cow boy!
>>>
> 
> I do not know any cowboy. The President of the United States is
> acting as honorably as any leader can under the circumstances.
> He has not acted irrationally since the United States has come under
> direct attack. He has been honest, and tough. He has also been
> fair. He has given first the Taliban, and now the Iraqi regime,
> a bloodless diplomatic way out of the problem. The Taliban chose
> war. We will soon see which choice is made by the Iraqi regime.
> 
> Jim Rogers
> 
> 
> 

Fair? Ha... Oil is thicker than blood!

-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[P S Norby]

"Adrian Hoe" <mailbox@*nospam*adrianhoe.com> wrote in message
news:3df41e46_2@news.tm.net.my...
> James S. Rogers wrote:
>

>
> >>>Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the
> >>>barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military
> >>>campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist
> >>>establishment. They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from
> >>>high above the sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of
> >>>the attacked contries.
> >>>

Ever hear of "work smarter, not harder"?  Ever hear of Bill Maher?

The USA was the "attacked country".

> >
> > Be careful of the accusation of cowardice. It is a form of manure
> > that can be thrown in any direction. What about the cowardice of
> > organizations that bomb night clubs filled with people?
> >
>
> >
> > Look at the hatred in the Middle East. The people there still talk about
> > revenge for the Crusades of the Middle Ages. They seem to forget that
> > Europe only sent troops to the area after the Moslims attacked and
> > destroyed an area occupied mostly by Christians. Apparently, in their
> > minds, it is evil to resist oppression.
> >
> >
> >>No, terrorism goes on and on because ignorance allows people to convince
> >>people to take out their grief and hatred on innocents.
> >>

And because terrorist leaders intentional keep the people ignorant and
misinformed.  They are taught to hate at an early age, and to blame their
problems on others instead of taking responsibility.


> >>
> >>>I hope this is not going to
> >>>happen on me. But no one can guarantee my hope will not be shattered
> >>>one day. Who is going to be responsible if they turn me into a
> >>>terrorist? If I have children at home, do you think I want to have
> >>>explosive tied to my body and turn myself into suicide bomber? Think!
> >>>

If "you" become a terrorist, "you" are responsible.


>
>
> Exactly my intention. Who is the coward? You want to fight the war but
> don't want to see your men and women killed on the battle field. Don't
>   go to war. It needs great courage to be a suicide bomber. I don't
> agree to their acts. I would say they have used their courage on the
> wrong side. But, what choice do they have? They don't have technology.
> They dare to go to war in person.

Suicide is killing only oneself.  These are homocide-bombers, and are
despicable cowards.  Real courage would overthrow Bin Laden, Arafat, Saddam
Hussein, etc.

>
> What is your belief in a higher good? The most powerful man in the
> world keeps on saying "We fight for freedom!"? The liberty? The oil?
> The US$? Global marketing? Global power? Global dominance?
>
> After Sept 11, only the emotion and feeling of the survivors were
> screened on CNN. What about the feeling of people in Afganistan,
> Palestine, and Iraq when they dropped tonnes of explosive onto thier home?
>

How about the Palestinians and others dancing in the streets to celebrated
the Sept 22 attacks?  The media stopped showing that all too soon.

>
> >>>If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of
> >>>intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down
> >>>the cow boy!
> >>>
> >
> > I do not know any cowboy. The President of the United States is
> > acting as honorably as any leader can under the circumstances.
> > He has not acted irrationally since the United States has come under
> > direct attack. He has been honest, and tough. He has also been
> > fair. He has given first the Taliban, and now the Iraqi regime,
> > a bloodless diplomatic way out of the problem. The Taliban chose
> > war. We will soon see which choice is made by the Iraqi regime.
> >
> > Jim Rogers
> >
> >
> >
>
> Fair? Ha... Oil is thicker than blood!
>

It also is a better source of fuel for tractors and other equipment which
facilitate the production of food.  If sand and oil won't allow the growth
of food, those countries must buy food from other countries.  Why fault the
producing countries for needing oil?

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Robert Kaiser]

In article <H74J9.297369$QZ.44881@sccrnsc02>,
	"P S Norby" <psnorby@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> How about the Palestinians and others dancing in the streets to celebrated
> the Sept 22 attacks?  The media stopped showing that all too soon.
           ^^
(I assume this should have been "11" ?)

I don't know what your media were showing, but over here the same
group of maybe 10 individuals was shown over and over again.

Apart from quickly becoming boring, this raises my suspicion that there
might not have been any real "mass celebrations" in palestina. They
probably just filmed a small bunch of mis-informed people. At least
the official statements on 9/11, even from palestinian hard-liners,
expressed both sincere shock and sympathy for the victims IIRC.

Rob

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Robert Kaiser wrote:
 > They probably just filmed a small bunch of mis-informed people.

I'm sure you're right. Someone must have forgotten to notify
them that they should keep their celebrations indoors where
no one would be able to film them.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Robert Kaiser]

In article <1039532332.684634@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>,
	Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
> > They probably just filmed a small bunch of mis-informed people.
> 
> I'm sure you're right. Someone must have forgotten to notify
> them that they should keep their celebrations indoors where
> no one would be able to film them.

Tell me: when your mass media tells you that "the palestinians" are
dancing in the streets, celebrating 9/11 and, to prove that, they keep
showing you the same small group of people in all channels over and
over again, doesn't that at least make you suspicions ?

I don't know _what_ these ~10 people were celebrating. It may have been
a wedding, it may have been that they heard of a strike against the US,
but were unaware of its severeness, it may even be that they were fully
aware of the severeness of the strike. But I'm pretty sure that the vast
majority of "the palestinians" were shocked and appalled when they
learned what had happened on 9/11 and were definitely not in a mood
to celebrate as mass media would like us to believe. Otherwise
we would have seen thousands of people dancing, not just a
small group.

It's sooo easy to think categories isn't it ? In every group of 1000
people you find at least one loonie. Point a TV camera at him and there's
your tool to discredit the other 999.


Rob

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Robert Kaiser wrote:
> In every group of 1000 people you find at least one loonie.

And c.l.a. appears to be no exception.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Robert Kaiser]

In article <1039544931.928841@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>,
	Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> In every group of 1000 people you find at least one loonie.
> 
> And c.l.a. appears to be no exception.
> 

So it seems ...

Rob

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
 > You want to fight the war but don't want to see your men and women
 > killed on the battle field. Don't go to war.

Instead, we will use our superior weaponry (which may even use Ada!)
and skill to go to war and not have our men and women killed anyway.
We will fight as unfairly as humanly possible to insure that all of
the casualties are on the other side.

 > What about the feeling of people in Afganistan, Palestine, and Iraq
 > when they dropped tonnes of explosive onto thier home?

Oderint dum metuant. Don't mess around with Jim. Try to imagine what
that part of the world would look like if the president had actually
permitted our armed forces to express the rage engendered by 9/11.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[P S Norby]

"Hyman Rosen" <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1039456034.146728@master.nyc.kbcfp.com...
> Adrian Hoe wrote:
>  > You want to fight the war but don't want to see your men and women
>  > killed on the battle field. Don't go to war.
>
> Instead, we will use our superior weaponry (which may even use Ada!)
> and skill to go to war and not have our men and women killed anyway.
> We will fight as unfairly as humanly possible to insure that all of
> the casualties are on the other side.

Which is as it should be.  To quote (paraphrase?) Gen. George S. Patton --
"You don't win a war by dying for your country.  You win by make the other
son of a bitch die for his country."

>
>  > What about the feeling of people in Afganistan, Palestine, and Iraq
>  > when they dropped tonnes of explosive onto thier home?
>
> Oderint dum metuant. Don't mess around with Jim. Try to imagine what
> that part of the world would look like if the president had actually
> permitted our armed forces to express the rage engendered by 9/11.
>

I think our new national motto should be "No more Mr. Nice Guy!", or "Don't
make us come over there!"

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[P S Norby]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9988 bytes --]

To view this item online, visit
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29921


Monday, December 9, 2002



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Carving up 10 anti-war arguments at holiday gatherings

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Posted: December 9, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern



By Michael Medved



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� 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

In the midst of this joyous holiday season we will all enjoy a series of
family and social gatherings sure to provide festive food, abundant
libations and freewheeling political rants. It could be your Uncle Murray or
perhaps your sister-in-law Fawn, but this year one or more members of your
clan will inevitably offer some indignant objection to the upcoming war
against Iraq. Here, as a public service, we present a handy guide to the
top-10 arguments against that war, and the most direct and effective ways to
counter them.



1. War never solved anything.

Not true - war has successfully solved many (if not most) of the major
problems and dangers in history. What "solved" Hitler? Negotiation,
compassion, psychoanalysis? No, the willingness of Churchill and Roosevelt
to slaughter as many Germans as necessary before we achieved regime change
in Berlin. Decisive, crushing victories (like World War II) lead to
long-term solutions (like the utter transformation of Germany and Japan),
while indecisive and hesitant outcomes (World War I, the Gulf War) often
lead to further struggle and instability.


2. We have no right to attack Saddam because our aid made him powerful and
he once functioned as our ally.

Not true, and not even vaguely relevant. During the Cold War, Iraq was a
client state of the Soviet Union, not the United States, and Saddam has
always been outspoken in his Marxist, anti-Western fulminations. It's true
that the U.S. foreign-policy establishment tilted toward Iraq in its bloody
war against Iran, but only because the Islamic fanaticism of the Iranians
represented a more direct, immediate danger to the United States. Suggesting
that fleeting cooperation some 20 years ago means that we have no right to
oppose Iraq today makes no sense whatever. We provided massive military and
financial support to Stalin during his desperate battle against Hitler. Does
that mean that we had no moral right to oppose the aggressive designs of the
Soviet Union when it turned against us within months of the conclusion of
the world war?


3. It's all about oil.

Not really, but so what? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that our whole
economy, and therefore our national security, depends upon imported oil? Why
is it even theoretically inappropriate to fight in order to ensure the
continued delivery of a substance so essential to our survival and
independence? Meanwhile, Saddam's psychotic and despotic regime would
represent a profound danger to the world even if he controlled no oil assets
whatever. The United States imports almost none of its petroleum from Iraq,
but our European "allies" (the French, in particular) get a great deal of
their energy from that country - and therefore ardently oppose the idea of
waging war. On this issue, it's the appeasers - not the hard-liners - who
are "all about oil."


4. Instead of planning war we should be developing alternate energy sources
to lessen our dependence on oil from the Middle East.

Sure, it's a good idea to secure new energy supplies - beginning with the
long overdue drilling of the fertile oil fields contained in 4 percent of
the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve. Meanwhile, the fond visions of
windmills and solar panels solving our national addiction to that nasty
black goo will do nothing to change our immediate economic or strategic
situation. Even the most visionary and optimistic views of "renewable"
energy development indicate that these emerging technologies can play a
significant role only some 10 or 20 years in the future - by which time
regime change in Iraq will have surely occurred in any event, due to the
eagerly awaited demise of the mustachioed megalomaniac.


5. If we make war on Iraq, it will only enrage the Arab world and provoke
even more terrifying assaults by terrorists.

The logic behind this assumption is that our enemies don't really hate us
yet, but that if we dare to harm Saddam, they'll just go nuts. As a matter
of fact, it's hard to understand how much more hostile you can feel once
you've already declared (as Osama did in 1998) that every American, civilian
or military, adult or child, richly deserves to die. The truth is that our
enemies don't hate us for what we do, they hate us for who we are. The
"don't get the crazy Arabs mad" argument rests upon the premise that their
fury arises in reaction to some action or policy of the United States,
rather than as an expression of their own self-destructive insanity and
suicidal evil.


6. The U.S. is no better than Saddam because we've murdered some 1.5 million
Iraqi children with our sanctions.

At times, leftists offer this same argument using the figure of 500,000
Iraqi children, or 2 million Iraqi children, or whatever other number sounds
good at the moment. It's a stupid lie - contradicted by reports of the
United Nations - and simply shows that whoever repeats it serves as an
unpaid but loyal propagandist for Saddam. The U.N. has repeatedly reported
(as recently as last month) that the Iraqi standard of living and health
care has been going up, not down, for the last several years - in part
because of the "Oil for Food" program administered as part of the sanctions
regime.

Starvation remains a problem in that country - not because of a lack of
resources or trade, but because of the deliberate and cruel policies of an
evil regime. The magical mystery tours of Saddam's palaces by the United
Nations inspectors demonstrate that the problem for Iraq isn't a lack of
wealth, but a misallocation of wealth by a monstrous kleptocracy. In one of
the dictator's palaces, all eight walls of an entrance hall were decorated
with verses of poetry in praise of Saddam, inlaid in solid gold.


7. There is no connection between Islamic terrorists and the Saddam Hussein
regime.

This statement represents one of the few examples of anti-war activists
disagreeing with the official line of the Iraqi government. That line
emphasizes the proud support of the heroic and revolutionary Iraqi people
for Islamic fighters everywhere, including the holy warriors of al-Qaida.
Meanwhile, the al-Qaida crew similarly expresses its solidarity with
Saddam - as they did in their Internet statement (widely validated by
intelligence agencies in the West) claiming credit for the recent Kenya
attacks, and linking future assaults to potential war against their friends,
the Iraqis. If Iraq expresses solidarity with al-Qaida, and al-Qaida
expresses solidarity with Iraq, peaceniks face a difficult challenge in
arguing that they represent utterly disconnected phenomena.


8. All the talk of war against Iraq has caused us to lose focus on the war
against terrorism.

Even if the president of the United States happens to focus on Iraq in his
speeches, that doesn't mean that the several hundred thousand Americans who
have been dedicated since Sept. 11 to rooting out Islamic terror suddenly
gave up or pulled back on their efforts. If our military and
counter-terrorist capabilities don't allow us to simultaneously combat a
gang of murderous thugs like al-Qaida and a fourth-rate military power like
Iraq, then we have been even more tragically weakened by eight years of
Clinton defense cuts than even the gloomiest conservatives assumed.


9. If we go ahead with war against Iraq, it will represent a betrayal of our
values and mark the first time in history that we attacked another country
that never attacked us first.

Only those with a truly pathetic public-school education could believe such
rubbish, since we fought the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish
American War, World War I, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, our campaigns in
Bosnia and Kosovo, and many lesser engagements - all with no direct attack
on the United States. Great powers face great threats - and dangerous
enemies. Why would a war prove easier or more appropriate after Saddam
develops, or uses, nuclear weapons - rather than before he's completed such
deadly development?


10. Iraq is no military pushover and we will suffer appalling losses in any
war we launch.

No credible military analysts agree with this assessment, and the peaceniks
don't believe it either. After all, some of the same "activists" issued the
same dire warnings about imminent disaster before the first Gulf War, not to
mention our recent efforts in Afghanistan. According to any impartial
analysis, the Iraqi military is vastly less powerful than it was at the time
of the prior Gulf War, and our capabilities - including our
mission-appropriate high tech weaponry - make us much better prepared than
we were last time.



The truth is that for many of the critics of Bush administration policy, the
real fear (as some of them actually admit) isn't a bloody American defeat
but a swift, relatively painless U.S. victory. Their belief is that it's a
bad thing for the world if America becomes even more powerful, more
dominant, in the Middle East and around the globe. They're dead wrong, of
course - all humanity - especially the 200 million Arabs who suffer under
the fanatical oppression of their own regimes - will benefit from a sweeping
U.S. victory and an increase in American influence.


With these brief but logical ripostes, you should feel prepared for even the
most contentious holiday gathering, and feel ready to carve up any
sanctimonious Uncle Murray along with the goose or turkey. Merry Christmas!

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Preben Randhol]

P S Norby wrote:
> 1. War never solved anything.

Vietnam


-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> P S Norby wrote:
> >1. War never solved anything.
> Vietnam


As long as war has solved something, it is not true
that war never solved anything. The article in question
gave examples where war did solve something, so listing
cases where it did not does not matter.

In any case, that it is possible to lose a war is not
sufficient reason not to engage in it.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:22:05 +0000 (UTC), Preben Randhol
<randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote:

>P S Norby wrote:
>> 1. War never solved anything.
>
>Vietnam

Didn't communists solve the "problem of democracy" using that war?

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Wes Groleau]

> Why is it even theoretically inappropriate to fight in order to ensure the
> continued delivery of a substance so essential to our survival and
> independence? ....

I agree with much of Medved comments,
including that it's NOT only "about oil"

Still, the above question is disturbing,
because the answers are: (1) Oil is NOT
essential to our survival or independence.
(2) There may be valid reasons for war, but
our comfort and convenience is NOT one of them!

He goes a little too far on some of
his other points as well.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Preben Randhol]

Hyman Rosen wrote:
> We will fight as unfairly as humanly possible to insure that all of
> the casualties are on the other side.

To insure that 90% of the casualties are civilians and then write them
of as collateral damage, you mean.

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Ed Cogburn]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
>>We will fight as unfairly as humanly possible to insure that all of
>>the casualties are on the other side.
> 
> 
> To insure that 90% of the casualties are civilians and then write them
> of as collateral damage, you mean.


I would love to see you prove that 90% of any casualties in any conflict since 
the Gulf War were civilian.  The only people making these claims are the ones 
we're fighting.  Well gee, don't you think they *might* have a reason to lie 
about this, since it sucks in gullible people like yourself?

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Preben Randhol]

Ed Cogburn wrote:
> 
> I would love to see you prove that 90% of any casualties in any
> conflict since the Gulf War were civilian.  The only people making
> these claims are the ones we're fighting.  Well gee, don't you think
> they *might* have a reason to lie about this, since it sucks in
> gullible people like yourself?

I would like to see the number of casualties in both Afghanistan and
iraq, but these are under lids.

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                          �1984 is soon coming to a computer near you.�

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Adrian Hoe]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> Ed Cogburn wrote:
> 
>>I would love to see you prove that 90% of any casualties in any
>>conflict since the Gulf War were civilian.  The only people making
>>these claims are the ones we're fighting.  Well gee, don't you think
>>they *might* have a reason to lie about this, since it sucks in
>>gullible people like yourself?
>>
> 
> I would like to see the number of casualties in both Afghanistan and
> iraq, but these are under lids.
> 
> 


So called "liberty lies"? the figures was covered up!
-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> To insure that 90% of the casualties are civilians and then write them
> of as collateral damage, you mean.


If necessary, yes. The actual percentage will vary by how much
the enemy combatants choose to locate themselves within civilian
areas.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Christopher Campbell]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
> I saw a documentary by Phoenix TV from China. It is a documentary film 
> on Iraq. The American or to be fair, the US Military used poor uranium 
> bombs on Iraqi soils. The Iraqi soils and water are contaminated with 
> radiation. After the war, one million children died of cancer in 5 years 
> time. All the bombs totally used were 6 times the atomic bombs in 
> Nagasaki during 2nd world war.

It's a virtual certainty that Depleted Uranium Shells where used in the 
gulf war but even I wouldn't believe those figures (or rather the source 
of those figures - China).  As Eric said the economic sanctions have had 
a drastic effect on the Iraqi people.  OTOH they have made little impact 
on Saddam himself and his people probably hate the UN for the sanctions 
and Saddam, so they won't trust us if we do /liberate/ them from Saddam.


> Is it fair that the US can use any kind of nuclear weapons on its so 
> called enemies and the enemies are not allowed to? What use we have UN 
> and no nude treaties? Bullshit!

            ^ nuke

In modern times these things aren't worth the paper they're written on. 
  You forget that the world is run on money and war makes money. 
Nowadays any government will toss aside whatever treaties it wants if it 
will make it cash.  The US, the UK, China and who ever else don't give a 
shit about anything but money.  That's the truth and if you don't like 
it tough shit.  You are one man, you have no voice and if you can't deal 
with that get off the bus.  If you have a billion dollar business maybe 
you can make a (small) difference but you don't and can't so live with it.


> Big countries like US, Australia and their allies are becoming the 
> barbarians of 21st century. They claim their rights to launch military 
> campaign on foreign soils to attack "suspected" terrorist establishment. 
> They cowardly bomb targets from UAV using missiles from high above the 
> sky. This is war. This challenges the sovereignty of the attacked contries.

And your point is?


> I will if this happens on me. I defended myself against six gang members 
> at my door front one night many years ago empty handedly. And I will do 
> it again at any cost if my family and I are in danger. This is human 
> nature and so called the male responsibilities. Will you? Think!
> 
> If you still have conscience and you (c.l.a.) claim you are a group of 
> intelligent software engineers, exercise your vote now to bring down the 
> cow boy!

I dislike Bush and the US government but they are only the embodiement 
of all that is wrong with the world, in my own country it is the same. 
I accept that the world is a fucked up place and try to make the best of 
my life.  I choose to hope that sometime things will come right, and the 
world will be a better place someday.  Have hope and faith in humanity 
but don't force your beliefs on others or you'll be as bad as the people 
who fuck with this planet.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Thierry Lelegard]

Dear all,

This quite successful discussion seems somehow unrelated
to the Ada language and even computing in general.

Although this discussion between Americans talking about
themselves is quite interesting (people unsuccessfully looking 
for an answer while this answer is obviously implicitely in
the way the question is exposed!), could you please move this 
to some internal-USA politics newsgroup and stop filling
comp.lang.ada.

Thank you all in advance for your cooperation?

-Thierry (doing COMPUTING in ADA in FRANCE)

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Wes Groleau]

> the way the question is exposed!), could you please move this 
> to some internal-USA politics newsgroup and stop filling
> comp.lang.ada.
> 
> -Thierry (doing COMPUTING in ADA in FRANCE)

Although I've contributed to the thread, I see your point.

On The Other Hand, if you hit 'K' while viewing this post,
Mozilla/Netscape will ensure you never see another post
in this thread.

On the third hand (I come from Chernobyl), it hasn't been
only about the USA.

Re: OT Hatred (was Re: New Ada compiler for .NET)

[Hyman Rosen]

Thierry Lelegard wrote:
> Thank you all in advance for your cooperation?

I'll bet Robert Dewar is feeling really sorry
right now that he stopped reading c.l.a. :-)