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From: harry@matilda.alt.net.au (Harry Protoolis)
Subject: Re: What is wrong with OO ?
Date: 1996/12/06
Date: 1996-12-06T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <slrn5afha4.49v.harry@matilda.alt.net.au> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 32a5ceba.81462731@news.nstn.ca


On Thu, 05 Dec 1996 03:06:57 GMT, Tom Bushell <tbushell@fox.nstn.ns.ca> wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Dec 1996 08:45:22 -0600, rmartin@oma.com (Robert C. Martin)
>wrote:
>
>>harry@matilda.alt.net.au (Harry Protoolis) wrote:
>>
>>> The traditional techniques all suffered from a number of significant
>>> flaws. Perhaps the most damaging one was what I (rather unkindly) think
>>> of as 'The glorification of idiots' phenomenon. What I mean by this is
>>> that projects were typically infested by a group of people who never
>>> wrote any software, but spent most of the budget drawing diagrams that
>>> the implementors never used.
>>
>>Much to my dismay, there are some OO methods that are promoting 
>>the same scheme.  The "analyst" draw nice pretty little diagrams, and
>>even run them through simulators to "prove" that they work.  These
>>diagrams are then run through a program that generates code.  Programmers
>>who maintain that code generator have to make sure that the "right" code
>>is generated.  They have to make the program work.
>
>It is my growing opinion that this is a fundamental problem with all
>"formal" design methods, not just OO design.  The effort involved in
>doing the design is as great or greater than doing the construction
>(coding).  Contrast this with doing the blueprints for a bridge - the
>design effort is orders of magnitude cheaper than the construction.
>(Or so I believe - a civil engineer might correct me on this).  Also,
>the OO design models I've studied don't seem to be very good maps of
>actual real world systems - there seems to be a big gap between high
>level architecture and running code.  I believe there should be a
>fairly smooth continuim from high level to low level of detail.

IMHO, the trick with OO design is to do it *informally* most of the
time. What I mean by this is that you sketch out high level architecture
and analysis results as high level class diagrams and then give them to
the 'implementors' to design and code.

The implementation team then does design as a series of informal
gatherings around a white board drawing state diagrams, detailed class
diagrams, object diagrams etc. You then photocopy and file the
whiteboard drawings and let the same group of people code from the
hand drawn design.

I then quite often reverse-engineer the resulting code and call *that*
the formal system design.

I do some formal tracking of this design process, but the golden rule is
that nothing should get in the way of the creative process. The failure
of *all* attempts at formal design is this mistaken belief that anything
short of coding can replace coding ... 

>I'm starting to believe that design and code don't make sense as
>separate entities - the design should _become_ the code - the design
>documents for an implemented system are used as the foundation of the
>code, and then regenerated from the code.  Major benefits would be
>that design work would not be discarded because it was too difficult
>to bring it up to date with reality.  Therefore, the design should
>never get out of synch.  This a similar idea to reverse engineering,
>but not identical.

My point is that the *design* and the *code* come into existance
together. To talk about the design becoming the code implies that it
exists before the code in some sense.

>If anyone has knows of tools that would facilitate this approach, I'd
>certainly be interested.  I've done some very simple prototypes, and
>hope to work on the idea in future (when I have more time - Hah!).

I think that a facinating tool would be a language sensitive drawing
tool in which you could switch your view between diagrams and code and
write 'code' in either view.

H
-
Harry Protoolis                              alt.computer pty ltd                 
harry@alt.net.au                             software development consultants





  parent reply	other threads:[~1996-12-06  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 465+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-12-03  0:00 What is wrong with OO ? Ahmed
1996-12-03  0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-03  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Ahmed
1996-12-04  0:00     ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Ahmed
1996-12-06  0:00         ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Jeff Miller
1996-12-06  0:00         ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-14  0:00         ` Chris
1996-12-03  0:00 ` Fred Parker
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Roger T.
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-04  0:00     ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-12-05  0:00     ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-05  0:00     ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-05  0:00       ` Marnix Klooster
1996-12-05  0:00       ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-06  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00           ` David Bradley
1996-12-08  0:00           ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-10  0:00             ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-11  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-11  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-11  0:00                 ` Matt Kennel
1996-12-12  0:00                 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-10  0:00             ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-11  0:00             ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Harry Protoolis [this message]
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Mukesh Prasad
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Roger Vossler
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-10  0:00           ` Roger Vossler
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Don Harrison
1996-12-11  0:00           `  Todd Knarr 
1996-12-11  0:00             ` Alan Meyer
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Ell
     [not found]             ` <58mubr$i <58p5ou$dkm@news3.digex.net>
1996-12-13  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-25  0:00                 ` Weiqi Gao
1996-12-25  0:00                   ` Matthew S. Whiting
1996-12-26  0:00                   ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-12-26  0:00                   ` Bob Jarvis
1996-12-26  0:00                     ` Arthur Gold
     [not found]             ` <32aefdb0..406273038@news.nstn.ca>
1996-12-14  0:00               ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Carl Weidling
1996-12-06  0:00       ` David B. Shapcott [C]
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Ahmed
1996-12-06  0:00     ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Ralph Cook
1996-12-07  0:00         ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-09  0:00           ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-12-12  0:00             ` David Bradley
1996-12-20  0:00               ` Nigel Tzeng
     [not found]         ` <1996Dec7.151850.877@prim.demon.co.uk>
1996-12-08  0:00           ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-14  0:00             ` Kazimir Majorinc
1996-12-14  0:00               ` Jeff Miller
1996-12-16  0:00                 ` David Bradley
1996-12-14  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-15  0:00               ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-15  0:00                 ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-15  0:00                 ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-16  0:00                   ` Bob Kettig
1996-12-16  0:00                   ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-20  0:00               ` The Impossible Project: not so funny... (Was: what's wrong) Tim Ottinger
1996-12-20  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-21  0:00                 ` John DiCamillo
1996-12-22  0:00                 ` Guy Rixon
1996-12-22  0:00     ` Chip Richards
1996-12-04  0:00   ` What is wrong with OO ? Joe Winchester
1996-12-05  0:00     ` Russell Corfman
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Matthew Gream
1996-12-05  0:00   ` Tim Ottinger
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Daniel Drasin
1996-12-06  0:00   ` David Bradley
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Steve Heller
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-07  0:00     ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-14  0:00       ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-15  0:00         ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-15  0:00           ` Joseph W. Seda
1996-12-16  0:00           ` David Bradley
1996-12-19  0:00           ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-12-07  0:00     ` Steve Heller
1996-12-07  0:00       ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-09  0:00         ` Kenneth Mays
1996-12-14  0:00         ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-14  0:00           ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-18  0:00             ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-18  0:00               ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Caitlin
1996-12-15  0:00           ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-17  0:00             ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Ralph Cook
1996-12-19  0:00                 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-20  0:00                   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-21  0:00                     ` Michael Malak
1996-12-19  0:00                 ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-17  0:00             ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Ralph Cook
1996-12-18  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-17  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-18  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-27  0:00                 ` clovis
1996-12-27  0:00                   ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1996-12-27  0:00                     ` Tore Lund
1996-12-28  0:00                       ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-28  0:00                         ` Tore Lund
1996-12-31  0:00                         ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-31  0:00                           ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-31  0:00                           ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00                             ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-31  0:00                             ` Neville Black
1997-01-01  0:00                             ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-10  0:00                             ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-10  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00                                 ` Assembler most efficient??? (was Re: What is wrong with OO ?) Richie Bielak
1997-01-11  0:00                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-11  0:00                                     ` James S. Rogers
1997-01-11  0:00                                     ` Larry Kilgallen
1997-01-12  0:00                                       ` Joel VanLaven
1997-01-13  0:00                                     ` Richie Bielak
1997-01-15  0:00                                 ` What is wrong with OO ? Richard Kenner
1997-01-11  0:00                               ` Randy A. Ynchausti
1997-01-12  0:00                               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-29  0:00                       ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00                         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-31  0:00                           ` clovis
1997-01-10  0:00                           ` Bart Samwel
1996-12-31  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-01  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-12  0:00                       ` Corey Minyard
1997-01-14  0:00                         ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-13  0:00                       ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-28  0:00                     ` clovis
1996-12-30  0:00                       ` John (Max) Skaller
1996-12-29  0:00                         ` Rosimildo da Silva
1996-12-31  0:00                         ` Ian Joyner
1997-01-03  0:00                       ` markj
1997-01-03  0:00                         ` Natan
1996-12-27  0:00                   ` Tore Lund
1996-12-28  0:00                     ` clovis
1996-12-28  0:00                       ` Tore Lund
1996-12-28  0:00                   ` Stephen Pendleton
1996-12-31  0:00                     ` Edward de Jong
1996-12-31  0:00                       ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-31  0:00                       ` clovis
1997-01-01  0:00                       ` Tore Lund
1997-01-01  0:00                         ` Tore Lund
1996-12-19  0:00               ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-24  0:00             ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-12-26  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-26  0:00                 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-16  0:00           ` Karen A. Morrissey
1996-12-16  0:00             ` Bob Kettig
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-17  0:00             ` David Bradley
1996-12-09  0:00       ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Snowball queries
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Steve Heller
1996-12-12  0:00         ` Samuel S. Shuster
1996-12-12  0:00           ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-12-13  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-16  0:00             ` Samuel S. Shuster
1996-12-16  0:00               ` Bob Kettig
1996-12-16  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-18  0:00                   ` Matt Kennel
1996-12-18  0:00                     ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-19  0:00                     ` Jeffrey C. Dege
1996-12-20  0:00                       ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-19  0:00                     ` David Bradley
1996-12-20  0:00                       ` Chris Brand
     [not found]                       ` <01bbee11$dcae8460$ca61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
1996-12-23  0:00                         ` David Bradley
1996-12-19  0:00                     ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-23  0:00                       ` David Bradley
1996-12-23  0:00                         ` Jeffrey C. Dege
1996-12-19  0:00                   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-27  0:00                     ` clovis
1996-12-15  0:00     ` Damon Feldman
1996-12-13  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-18  0:00   ` Matt Austern
1996-12-19  0:00     ` Risto Lankinen
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-26  0:00     ` What sells IT (was: What is wrong with OO ?) Cameron Laird
1996-12-20  0:00   ` What is wrong with OO ? Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-26  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-26  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Myles Williams
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Ranjan Bagchi
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Myles Williams
1996-12-07  0:00 ` Kazimir Majorinc
1996-12-14  0:00   ` Chris
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-12-04  0:00 Ell
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-04  0:00 Ell
1996-12-05  0:00 Ell
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-05  0:00 Ell
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Brian Gridley
1996-12-05  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-06  0:00 Ell
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-07  0:00   ` Steve Heller
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Thomas Gagne
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Bob Crispen
1996-12-14  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-10  0:00   ` Art Schwarz
1996-12-06  0:00 Ell
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-09  0:00     ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-12  0:00     ` Frederick Sickert
1996-12-06  0:00 ` H Brett Bolen
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Prashant Gupta
1996-12-14  0:00   ` Chris
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-07  0:00 Ell
1996-12-07  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-10  0:00   ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-14  0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-16  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-19  0:00         ` Robert C. Martin
     [not found]   ` <01bbeb6f$e2220c40$371883cc@beast.advancedsw.com>
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-17  0:00       ` Roger T.
1996-12-18  0:00         ` Matt Kennel
     [not found]           ` <01bbed37$23deaa80$371883cc@beast.advancedsw.com>
1996-12-19  0:00             ` Matt Kennel
1996-12-19  0:00         ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-18  0:00 ` drush
1996-12-11  0:00 Ell
1996-12-11  0:00 Ell
1996-12-13  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-13  0:00   ` Ronald Servant
1996-12-13  0:00     ` matt
1996-12-13  0:00       ` Dan Stubbs
1996-12-18  0:00     ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-13  0:00 Ell
1996-12-13  0:00 ` drush
1996-12-15  0:00   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-16  0:00       ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-19  0:00     ` Samuel Mize
1996-12-14  0:00 Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-16  0:00 ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-22  0:00 ` Willy
1996-12-24  0:00   ` Fraser Wilson
1996-12-14  0:00 Ell
1996-12-15  0:00 Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-15  0:00 Ell
1996-12-15  0:00 ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-16  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-12-18  0:00 Ell
1996-12-18  0:00 ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-19  0:00 Ell
1996-12-24  0:00 Ell
1996-12-27  0:00 Ell
1996-12-28  0:00 Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-28  0:00 ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-31  0:00 Ell
1996-12-31  0:00 ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-01  0:00     ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-31  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-03  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-07  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02  0:00 ` Ian Joyner
1997-01-02  0:00   ` David L. Shang
1996-12-31  0:00 Ell
1996-12-31  0:00 ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-12-31  0:00 ` Ian Joyner
1996-12-31  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-01  0:00     ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-02  0:00     ` Thaddeus L. Olczyk
1997-01-07  0:00   ` drush
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 ` Tim Ottinger
1997-01-08  0:00 ` Paul Eric Menchen
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-02  0:00 ` Mike Anderson
1997-01-02  0:00   ` Dale Pontius
1997-01-02  0:00     ` Bill Hunter
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-03  0:00     ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Matt Austern
1997-01-04  0:00   ` Valerie Torres
1997-01-06  0:00     ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-08  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Richie Bielak
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00         ` William Clodius
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Simon Willcocks
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00                 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Jay Martin
1997-01-09  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-10  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00                   ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Jay Martin
1997-01-12  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15  0:00                   ` Laurent Gasser
1997-01-15  0:00                     ` Jonas Nygren
1997-01-17  0:00                       ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-17  0:00                         ` Michael Malak
1997-01-17  0:00                           ` Kent Budge, sandia, 
1997-01-17  0:00                         ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-15  0:00                     ` Jay Martin
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Jay Martin
1997-01-10  0:00                 ` Joe Buck
1997-01-11  0:00                   ` Jay Martin
1997-01-12  0:00             ` Slavik Zorin
1997-01-11  0:00           ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-12  0:00             ` Thierry Goubier
1997-01-14  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-14  0:00             ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-16  0:00               ` Mark Woodruff
1997-01-17  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-10  0:00         ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-10  0:00           ` Michael Malak
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-12  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00       ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-11  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15  0:00           ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-19  0:00             ` Jay Martin
1997-01-27  0:00               ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-30  0:00                 ` Damon Feldman
1997-01-20  0:00             ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-01-21  0:00               ` John W. Sarkela
1997-01-23  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-23  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-25  0:00               ` Damon Feldman
1997-01-26  0:00             ` Sean Case
1997-01-26  0:00               ` William Grosso
1997-01-28  0:00                 ` Paul Keister
1997-01-28  0:00               ` Dann Corbit
1997-01-12  0:00         ` Matt Telles
1997-01-15  0:00           ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-19  0:00             ` Matthew Heaney
1997-01-12  0:00         ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-13  0:00           ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-14  0:00         ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-16  0:00           ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-16  0:00             ` Risto Lankinen
1997-01-16  0:00               ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-16  0:00                 ` Risto Lankinen
1997-01-18  0:00                 ` Robert C. Martin
     [not found]           ` <01bc0269$3fd55b20$ca61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
1997-02-10  0:00             ` richard
1997-02-10  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
     [not found]                 ` <3303A993.759E@pratique.fr>
1997-02-21  0:00                   ` Nick Leaton
1997-02-21  0:00                   ` Nick Leaton
1997-02-22  0:00                     ` Fergus Henderson
1997-02-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-20  0:00         ` David Emery
     [not found]       ` <dewar.852772995@mer <dewar.852833957@merv>
1997-01-10  0:00         ` Simon Willcocks
1997-01-10  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Marky Mark
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00                 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12  0:00                   ` Josh Stern
1997-01-12  0:00             ` Martin ELLISON
1997-01-14  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-17  0:00     ` Lawrence G. Mayka
1997-01-19  0:00       ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-07  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-11  0:00     ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-21  0:00       ` rharlos*cybercomm.net
1997-02-10  0:00       ` richard
1997-02-10  0:00         ` Charles A. Jolley
1997-02-11  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-17  0:00             ` Sam Inala
1997-02-17  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-15  0:00           ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-02-11  0:00         ` Vlastimil Adamovsky
1997-01-07  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-10  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-01-12  0:00     ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-10  0:00   ` Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-12  0:00     ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12  0:00   ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-12  0:00   ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-11  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-13  0:00   ` ak
1997-01-13  0:00   ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-13  0:00   ` Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-13  0:00     ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-23  0:00   ` Chris Bitmead
1997-01-23  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-26  0:00     ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-23  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-01-08  0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-01-03  0:00 Ell
1997-01-03  0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-06  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1997-01-06  0:00   ` Steven Perryman
1997-01-08  0:00     ` Russ McClelland
1997-01-06  0:00 John Walker
1997-01-10  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-11  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-12  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-14  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-15  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-18  0:00 Ell
1997-02-11  0:00 Ell
1997-02-11  0:00 ` John Brady
1997-02-11  0:00 ` Matt McClellan
1997-02-12  0:00 ` Russ McClelland
1997-02-12  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-12  0:00   ` Ketil Z Malde
1997-02-12  0:00   ` Hamilton, Robert Bryan       
1997-02-12  0:00   ` Kevin J. Hopps
     [not found]     ` <33049C7C.41C6@wi.leidenuniv.nl>
1997-02-17  0:00       ` Kevin J. Hopps
1997-02-17  0:00         ` phil
1997-02-18  0:00     ` Simon Willcocks
1997-02-12  0:00   ` David B. Shapcott [C]
1997-02-13  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-13  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-13  0:00     ` Hamilton, Robert Bryan       
1997-02-15  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-16  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-12  0:00 ` Bob Jarvis
1997-02-13  0:00 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
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