TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Hello,

You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
have to deal with it.

And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:

http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
one year:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html

But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
something. Why can't we?

On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?

Martin
-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[j.khaldi]

On Nov 4, 6:56 pm, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
> have to deal with it.
>
> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
> one year:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>
> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
> something. Why can't we?
First you have to fix this: Ada lacks a free and *fast* compiler,
perhaps written in Ada (like the free Pascal one); and then this: an
integrated development tool written in Ada to (like Lazarus -
http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/).

> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
Many desktop applications are developed in VB or Delphi. They are
fast, cheap and easy to write using RAD tools.
Jilani

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Ludovic Brenta]

j.khaldi@oltrelinux.com writes:
> First you have to fix this: Ada lacks a free and *fast* compiler,
> perhaps written in Ada (like the free Pascal one);

GNAT is free and written in Ada.  I admit that the latest versions are
not fast.  If you want a fast, free Ada compiler written in Ada, try
GNAT 3.15p or try the port of the Ada front-end to LLVM
(http://llvm.org).

> and then this: an integrated development tool written in Ada to
> (like Lazarus - http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/).

There is the GNAT Programming Studio, which is free and written in
Ada.  See http://libre2.adacore.com/gps

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Markus E L]

Martin Krischik wrote:

> Hello,
>
> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
> have to deal with it.
>
> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
> one year:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>
> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
> something. Why can't we?
>
> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>


"The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled
engineers, courses and third party vendors."

That might explain a lot: C++ programmers are presently much in
demand, VB programmers are getting phased out. Ehat the index
basically measures (partially, at least) is unemployment.

Just an idea ;-).

Regards -- Markus

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Markus E L schrieb:
> Martin Krischik wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>>
>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
>> have to deal with it.
>>
>> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>>
>> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
>> one year:
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>>
>> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>> something. Why can't we?
>>
>> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>>
> 
> 
> "The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled
> engineers, courses and third party vendors."

That's the logical description. Physically it is done 'by counting hits
of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is
+"<language> programming" '

One problem we face is that "most popular" now excludes usenet and
google-groups :-(. See:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm

> That might explain a lot: C++ programmers are presently much in
> demand, VB programmers are getting phased out. that the index
> basically measures (partially, at least) is unemployment.

Well it's more a measurer of:

<META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="XXX programming">

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Markus E L]

Martin Krischik wrote:

> Markus E L schrieb:
>> Martin Krischik wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
>>> have to deal with it.
>>>
>>> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>>>
>>> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
>>> one year:
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>>>
>>> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>>> something. Why can't we?
>>>
>>> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> "The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled
>> engineers, courses and third party vendors."
>
> That's the logical description. Physically it is done 'by counting hits
> of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is
> +"<language> programming" '

The problem with hat method is that it doesn't count "popularity", but
"activity", meaning, if people start mass migratring away from a
language, one might get a situation in which the language is being
mentioned rather often.

> One problem we face is that "most popular" now excludes usenet and
> google-groups :-(. See:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm

:-). Those indices are worth nothing, simply.

>
>> That might explain a lot: C++ programmers are presently much in
>> demand, VB programmers are getting phased out. that the index
>> basically measures (partially, at least) is unemployment.
>
> Well it's more a measurer of:
>
> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="XXX programming">


Yes, might be. I hope you noticed my smiley (it was a ;-) ...), but
I'm at least partially serious: Those methods measure whatever they
count, but definitely not popularity.

Regards -- Markus

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Gautier]

Martin Krischik:

> One problem we face is that "most popular" now excludes usenet and
> google-groups :-(.

There are some gateways usenet <-> web, like http://de.nntp2http.com/
I found once relaying the OpenGL ng, looking like a blog or a web forum.

______________________________________________________________
Gautier         -- http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/gdm/index.htm
Ada programming -- http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/gdm/gsoft.htm

NB: For a direct answer, e-mail address on the Web site!

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[anon]

Means nothing!  

The rating as states is based on search engines. At the beginning of 
classes students are searching for sites to find help.  After a month 
most have them the links and are no longer searching. So, the rating 
drops.  A better check will be after the final exam and before the next 
class begins.

And most working programmers including Ada programmers will search 
privately before deciding to change job. If they find one then the family 
finds out as the boss receive his 2-week notice. Others use local or 
national paid job services which TIOBE does not have access to. And a 
small number will use word of mouth, from friend, which TIOBE will 
never have access to. Other use "Hotjob", "monster", "careerbuilder", 
or etc. which searches decreases at the beginning though the mid of the 
school term but increase at the end as the grads start to become a 
honest tax payer.

So, I would not hold too much stock in TIOBE rating system, says.

In <1779892.Lp74q3fGR4@linux1.krischik.com>, Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>Hello,
>
>You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
>have to deal with it.
>
>And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>
>http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
>Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
>one year:
>
>http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>
>But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>something. Why can't we?
>
>On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>
>Martin
>-- 
>mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
>Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

anon schrieb:
> Means nothing!  
> 
> The rating as states is based on search engines. At the beginning of 
> classes students are searching for sites to find help.  After a month 
> most have them the links and are no longer searching. So, the rating 
> drops.  A better check will be after the final exam and before the next 
> class begins.
> 

Prehaps you should read the definition:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm

Aa far as I understand it they just count hits. If you got to google and
execute:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=de&newwindow=1&q=%2B%22Ada+programming%22&btnG=Suche&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en

you get 220.000 pages. Note the use of +"Ada programming" - without the
+  and the " it would be a lot more. I think adding:

<META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">

to every Ada related page would do the trick.

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:

> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
> 
> to every Ada related page would do the trick.

Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
pages.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Dmitry A. Kazakov schrieb:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
> 
>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>
>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
> 
> Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
> pages.

The way they described it you will need the exact string "Ada
programming" with one space in between. The main reason why we chosen
"Ada programming" when we renamed the wikibook. Or created a category
"Category:Ada programming" on wikipedia. Or have you noticed the "Ada
programming, � 2005,2006 the Authors, Content is available under GNU
Free Documentation License." on all the other Wiki pages.

And for a short time it worked moving Ada up 2 .. 3 places. But not in
the long run - you need to keep momentum. But I already tweaked most of
the pages I have access to.

BTW: there is a reason for it. Just searching Ada programming on YouTube
gives you lot's of hits on women forenames and/or TV programs.

Martin
-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:35:26 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:

> Dmitry A. Kazakov schrieb:
>> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
>> 
>>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>>
>>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>> 
>> Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
>> pages.
> 
> The way they described it you will need the exact string "Ada
> programming" with one space in between. The main reason why we chosen
> "Ada programming" when we renamed the wikibook. Or created a category
> "Category:Ada programming" on wikipedia. Or have you noticed the "Ada
> programming, � 2005,2006 the Authors, Content is available under GNU
> Free Documentation License." on all the other Wiki pages.

Thank you for the hint. I will add "Ada programming" to my Ada-pages. Not
that I believe it could boots that index... (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Manuel Gomez]

On 5 nov, 10:35, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:

> BTW: there is a reason for it. Just searching Ada programming on YouTube
> gives you lot's of hits on women forenames and/or TV programs.
>

They say:

    "From this month on, we have stopped monitoring Google groups
because it is not representative anymore. Instead we have added
YouTube for a small percentage. The choice for YouTube might seem
strange but it is now #4 on the Alexa.com chart and people tend to
upload lectures and "how to" videos on this site. The top 3
programming languages on YouTube is Java, C++, and (surprisingly)
Python."

Given that they have added YouTube we should think on uploading some
videos to that site. Some old ones can be found in
http://www.adapower.com/index.php?Command=Class&ClassID=AdvocacyVideos&Title=Ada+Advocacy+Videos

AdaCore has a great repository of Ada videos but I wonder whether they
would like that people upload their videos to YouTube.

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Ludovic Brenta]

Dmitry A. Kazakov writes:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
>
>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>> 
>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>
> Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
> pages.

No, A.D.A. also stands for Americans with Disabilities Act: this is a US
regulation about accessibility and is referenced in a lot of places.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:11:11 +0100, Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> No, A.D.A. also stands for Americans with Disabilities Act: this is a US
> regulation about accessibility and is referenced in a lot of places.

The act of lifting Ada-mandate, you mean? (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Stephen Leake]

Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> I think adding:
>
> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>
> to every Ada related page would do the trick.

Or to every non-Ada related page! 


-- 
-- Stephe

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Stephen Leake schrieb:
> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> 
>> I think adding:
>>
>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>
>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
> 
> Or to every non-Ada related page! 

Technically true but it might be considered cheating.

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Stephen Leake]

Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> Stephen Leake schrieb:
>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>> 
>>> I think adding:
>>>
>>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>>
>>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>> 
>> Or to every non-Ada related page! 
>
> Technically true but it might be considered cheating.

Yes; that was partly my point.

How many of the Visual Basic hits are due to such cheating? We have
no way of knowing.

One more reason to ignore this web site.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Stephen Leake wrote:

> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> 
>> Stephen Leake schrieb:
>>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>>> 
>>>> I think adding:
>>>>
>>>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>>>
>>>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>>> 
>>> Or to every non-Ada related page!
>>
>> Technically true but it might be considered cheating.
> 
> Yes; that was partly my point.
> 
> How many of the Visual Basic hits are due to such cheating? We have
> no way of knowing.

Well, I think others cheated far more:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html

Incease popularity 7 fold in 10 month ...
 
But even more interesting is:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/D.html

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[anon]

The problem with this type of survey board is that it uses hits.  Any 
single person can key in the correct information and cause the numbers 
to change in the way he/she likes. Or, any internet programmer can build 
a net application to alter the hits pattern in a few seconds.

Plus, most job hunting programmers do not use the keys "Ada programming" 
or "Ada jobs". They search for the type of job that they want, such as a 
person wanting to work with super-computers might search for 
"Super-computers" or "Super-computers jobs". Or they could search for 
specific jobs like "Programming jobs in weather forecasting" or 
"NASA jobs", in both case super-computers are widely used and neither 
search uses a programming language even though one or both jobs could 
use Ada.

Actually most grads and programmers looking for jobs do not care what 
language they use so long as they can program and not just vacuum out 
a dusty computer cabinet or defrag a hard drive at the local computer 
repair shop.

And for Ada.  The name is not copyrighted! Just entering "Ada" in 
a search engine will get you site for. 

 American Dental Association
 American Diabetes Association 
 American Dietetic Association
 Americans with Disabilities Act
 Alternative Distribution Alliance
 Aeronautical Development Agency
 ...
 and finally [ Ada (programming language) ]
 ...

Because those topics and others use programming, you could see links to 
those website and others if you use "Ada programming" but the 
programming languages site should pop up more frequently than the others, 
but that not always the case at google. 

Then there are people like me who have yet to use "Ada programming" in 
a search engine. "Ada Language" is better and limits the data to the 
Ada language and its related fields.

So, the hit counter is not a perfect list as TIOBE would like you to 
believe.


In <472ec5e7$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>anon schrieb:
>> Means nothing!  
>> 
>> The rating as states is based on search engines. At the beginning of 
>> classes students are searching for sites to find help.  After a month 
>> most have them the links and are no longer searching. So, the rating 
>> drops.  A better check will be after the final exam and before the next 
>> class begins.
>> 
>
>Prehaps you should read the definition:
>
>http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
>
>Aa far as I understand it they just count hits. If you got to google and
>execute:
>
>http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=de&newwindow=1&q=%2B%22Ada+programming%22&btnG=Suche&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en
>
>you get 220.000 pages. Note the use of +"Ada programming" - without the
>+  and the " it would be a lot more. I think adding:
>
><META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>
>to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>
>Martin
>
>-- 
>mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
>Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

anon schrieb:

> Plus, most job hunting programmers do not use the keys "Ada
> programming" or "Ada jobs".

TIOBE does not only go for job seeker but also for managers who consider
the programming language for a new project.

Or - more likely - a programmer will approach a manager with the claim
"Look Ruby is in the 10 ten of the TIOBE index. Ruby is a top ten
language. Ruby would be good for us. :-) :-)"

Or - horror scenario - "Look Ada dropped of the top 20 at TIOBE - it's
old fashioned - no body uses it any more - we should not be using it".

Dropping off the top 20 will give Ada basher another angle to attack.

> So, the hit counter is not a perfect list as TIOBE would like you to 
> believe.

I know that. But many don't.

Besides: TIOBE does not measure actually used search pattern but the
result to one example pattern which they made up and consider useful.

If we find it useful or not does not matter - they find it useful. So we
should consider tweaking our Web-Sides so they will match there pattern.

We would not be the first.

Martin
-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[anon]

>Or - more likely - a programmer will approach a manager with the claim
>"Look Ruby is in the 10 ten of the TIOBE index. Ruby is a top ten
>language. Ruby would be good for us. :-) :-)"

A programmer suggestion how thing should be managed.  That like saying 
that a initial programmer job start at $100_000 per year.  We all know 
that's not true. The top of the pay scale last year was reportedly, the 
email specialist at $75_000 for at least 5 years experience, in the US.

Plus, since "google" has not compiled with the US government request to 
give them information of what porn site were searched, what makes you 
think they would give any information to TIOBE. And since then other 
search engines have decide to become private with their data as well. So, 
can we trust that TIOBE is actually getting valid data or reporting the 
valid data.




In <472f20aa$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>anon schrieb:
>
>> Plus, most job hunting programmers do not use the keys "Ada
>> programming" or "Ada jobs".
>
>TIOBE does not only go for job seeker but also for managers who consider
>the programming language for a new project.
>
>Or - more likely - a programmer will approach a manager with the claim
>"Look Ruby is in the 10 ten of the TIOBE index. Ruby is a top ten
>language. Ruby would be good for us. :-) :-)"
>
>Or - horror scenario - "Look Ada dropped of the top 20 at TIOBE - it's
>old fashioned - no body uses it any more - we should not be using it".
>
>Dropping off the top 20 will give Ada basher another angle to attack.
>
>> So, the hit counter is not a perfect list as TIOBE would like you to 
>> believe.
>
>I know that. But many don't.
>
>Besides: TIOBE does not measure actually used search pattern but the
>result to one example pattern which they made up and consider useful.
>
>If we find it useful or not does not matter - they find it useful. So we
>should consider tweaking our Web-Sides so they will match there pattern.
>
>We would not be the first.
>
>Martin
>-- 
>mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
>Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

anon schrieb:

> Plus, since "google" has not compiled with the US government request to 
> give them information of what porn site were searched, what makes you 
> think they would give any information to TIOBE. And since then other 
> search engines have decide to become private with their data as well. So, 
> can we trust that TIOBE is actually getting valid data or reporting the 
> valid data.

I think it is easy enough to write a program to act as a web browser and
issue a google search on i.E. +"Ada programming"

See for yourself:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=de&newwindow=1&q=%2B%22Ada+programming%22&btnG=Suche&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en

and then extract hits from the

Results 1 - 100 of about 225,000 English and German pages for +"Ada
programming". (0.24 seconds)

part

You got it entirely wrong - it's a lot simpler then you think!!!

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Stephen Leake]

Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used 

What data do you have to back up the assertion that it is "widely
used"?

As a counter point, this is the first I've heard of it.

> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

It says:

    Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming
    language or the language in which most lines of code have been
    written.

So why should we care?

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Stephen Leake schrieb:

> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> 
>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used 
> 
> What data do you have to back up the assertion that it is "widely
> used"?

Google for "TIOBE Programming Community Index" ;-).

> As a counter point, this is the first I've heard of it.

You can't be long here at comp.lang.ada - I have an article on it every
3 to 6 month.

>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
> 
> It says:
> 
>     Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming
>     language or the language in which most lines of code have been
>     written.
> 
> So why should we care?

Because it also says:

   The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are
   still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what
   programming language should be adopted when starting to build
   a new software system.

And have a look at the Ada bashing on the definition page:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm

   This is what you also see in daily practice: Ada is hardly used for
   new mission-critical systems any more.

Emphasis on "new". This is the problem: Right or wrong - they tell the
world which language to use in future. And this is why we should care.

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Stephen Leake]

Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> Stephen Leake schrieb:
>
>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>> 
>>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used 
>> 
>> What data do you have to back up the assertion that it is "widely
>> used"?
>
> Google for "TIOBE Programming Community Index" ;-).

Ok, so several (many? lots?) of other web sites reference it.

To me, "used", in this context, means "employed as a criteria for
choosing a language".

How many people pick a language for a project based on this web site?

>> As a counter point, this is the first I've heard of it.
>
> You can't be long here at comp.lang.ada - I have an article on it every
> 3 to 6 month.

Well, I've been here longer than that. I guess my newsgroup memory
filter has been ignoring these posts.

>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>> 
>> It says:
>> 
>>     Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming
>>     language or the language in which most lines of code have been
>>     written.
>> 
>> So why should we care?
>
> Because it also says:
>
>    The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are
>    still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what
>    programming language should be adopted when starting to build
>    a new software system.

Well, it may _say_ that, but I don't _believe_ it!

The number of websites that satisfy its search criteria does _not_
correlate with my ability to get a job programming in Ada.

> And have a look at the Ada bashing on the definition page:
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
>
>    This is what you also see in daily practice: Ada is hardly used for
>    new mission-critical systems any more.
>
> Emphasis on "new". This is the problem: Right or wrong - they tell the
> world which language to use in future. And this is why we should care.

I beg to differ; this is why we should educate managers about _real_
reasons to pick languages.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 05:19:44 -0500, Stephen Leake wrote:

> I beg to differ; this is why we should educate managers about _real_
> reasons to pick languages.

So far managers have been educating us about the reality, which represents
itself as market shares, rather than any technical merits.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Stephen Leake wrote:

> Well, it may say that, but I don't believe it!
 
I don't  believe it either - but less educated (technical wise) people
might. Of course those people might be educated in other areas and might be
in a position to make decisions because of it.

Martin
-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Simon Wright]

Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:

> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
> something. Why can't we?

For all we know they may just have been frequent YouTube posters!

Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007

[Martin Krischik]

Simon Wright wrote:

> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
 
>> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>> something. Why can't we?
 
> For all we know they may just have been frequent YouTube posters!

Indeed. Question remains: Why can't we post something to YouTube ;-).

Martin
-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com