How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ankur Sethi]

n00b question? Probably. Can I find my answer somewhere else? Nope. Do
I have any other place to turn to? Definitely not.

I'm a hobbyist programmer just out of high school. I've been dabbling
in C and Python for a while now, and would probably take up CS in
college (just a few months from now).

I was attracted to Ada because it was :
1. Sanely Object Oriented - It doesn't force OO like Java and C#.
2. Compiled - I *want* to do manual memory management so that I can at
least understand what automatic garbage collection means to me. I've
been living comfortably with Python for too long.
3. Uniform Syntax - I find C++ syntax weird. C was okay, though.

I'm sure there are other benefits, but I really don't understand what
they mean to me (yet).

So, what would an amateur, cash deprived programmer like me do to
learn Ada? There are web tutorials, for for the 95 standard. There's a
Wikibook, but I've found it incomplete at several places and there are
a lot of concepts I can't grasp. There's the reference document, but I
can't make head or tail of it.

A big, warm hearted "thank you" , in advance, to anybody who helps :)

PS : Once I learn this language, I *swear* I'm writing my own
tutorials so other hobbyists can benefit.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Martin Krischik]

Ankur Sethi wrote:

You can allways ask us!

> PS : Once I learn this language, I swear I'm writing my own
> tutorials so other hobbyists can benefit.

Please continue the Wikibook - that way you can build on what is there and
don't have to start from scratch and eventually we have a really
comprehensive tutorial.

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ankur Sethi]

> Please continue the Wikibook - that way you can build on what is there and
> don't have to start from scratch and eventually we have a really
> comprehensive tutorial.

Sure, will do. But once I'm through John English's book, and the Ada05
rationale.

I was wondering why more people don't use Ada. So far, it's much
easier than C++ and the compiler errors are 100x friendlier. I mean,
even dynamic languages (Python, I'm looking at you) don't have the
kind of programmer friendly, human readable errors GNAT has been
spitting out.

Thank you everyone for the help :) I've bookmarked all the links from
this thread. I'll go over them tonight.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sébastien]

> I was wondering why more people don't use Ada. So far, it's much
> easier than C++ and the compiler errors are 100x friendlier. I mean,
> even dynamic languages (Python, I'm looking at you) don't have the
> kind of programmer friendly, human readable errors GNAT has been
> spitting out.
> 
> Thank you everyone for the help :) I've bookmarked all the links from
> this thread. I'll go over them tonight.

Yes when you have an error in Ada, the compiler is so nice, it's 
touching. In most language youo ask yourself "What can i do to correct" 
in Ada, the compiler tell you what to do, so just do it ;-)

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[mockturtle]

On May 24, 6:53 am, Ankur Sethi <get.me.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> n00b question? Probably. Can I find my answer somewhere else? Nope. Do
> I have any other place to turn to? Definitely not.
>
> I'm a hobbyist programmer just out of high school. I've been dabbling
> in C and Python for a while now, and would probably take up CS in
> college (just a few months from now).
>
(snip)
> So, what would an amateur, cash deprived programmer like me do to
> learn Ada? There are web tutorials, for for the 95 standard. There's a
> Wikibook, but I've found it incomplete at several places and there are
> a lot of concepts I can't grasp. There's the reference document, but I
> can't make head or tail of it.
>

Welcome aboard!
I am too a beginner in Ada (I discovered it less than one year ago),
so
my memories about my learning Ada are still fresh.  Moreover,
you have a programming background similar to mine (but I use Ruby
instead
of Python), althoug maybe I have more experience (I finished high-
school
too much time ago, alas :-).  This is my path in learning Ada

 1. Got the GNAT suite.  It is free and the latest release covers Ada
2005.

 2. Read whatever tutorial I was able to find.  Yes, you are right,
this is
a weak spot in our favorite language (there was a thread on this
newsgroup
few months ago).  I guess that there is no tutorial
about Ada 2005, but you can start from the tutorial for Ada 95, then
add the
difference by reading the Rationale (see at http://www.adaic.org/standards/ada05.html).

About the reference: I agree that it is not the most readible document
in the
world, but it is handy to have when you program.  I find a little bit
clearer
the "Annotated" version, although it is said that it is

   "Intended primarily for compiler writers, conformance test
writers,
    and others who wish to study the fine details"

I find that in more than one occasion the annotations make more
intuitive
the "CS legalese" used in the RM.

 3. Most important (at least for me): pick a problem and start
programming.  The
problem must be not too easy (a part, of course, the "Hello world"
program type that you
will write at the *very* beginning), nor too difficult. Just to give
you an
idea of the complexity, I will tell you that (because of my
background)
I decided to write a generic package for working with polynomials and
matrices
with coefficients in a ring.

I also would suggest taking a problem which requires multitasking.  If
you
ever wrote multitasking programs in C/C++, you will fall in love with
Ada
at once...  Also, try the "generic" programming and experience the
difference
with C++ templates...

A last warning: do not be scared if the first times you will have to
fight
half an hour to have your first progam compiled. Ada compilers are
quite
picky... (but that's why we love Ada :-).

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ankur Sethi]

Thanks for the pointers. I'm going off to read a Ada95 tutorial right
now ...

> I find a little bit clearer the "Annotated" version.

Just found it. I must say it is much more readable. In fact, not much
different from the Python reference.

> Most important (at least for me): pick a problem and start
> programming.

I generally try my hand at online-judge-type problems when I learn a
language. I did this for C, C++ and Python. I'll probably do the same
for Ada, then move on to something complex.

> I also would suggest taking a problem which requires multitasking.  If you
> ever wrote multitasking programs in C/C++, you will fall in love with Ada
> at once...  Also, try the "generic" programming and experience the
> difference with C++ templates...

I'm afraid I'm not that advanced a programmer yet. I never got to
understanding templates in C++, and nothing of that sort was ever
required in Python. But I've decided to learn every bit of Ada I can.
There must be at least one language I should master, and who knows,
Ada might be it!

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[mockturtle]

On May 24, 11:04 am, Ankur Sethi <get.me.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
>
> > I also would suggest taking a problem which requires multitasking.  If you
> > ever wrote multitasking programs in C/C++, you will fall in love with Ada
> > at once...  Also, try the "generic" programming and experience the
> > difference with C++ templates...
>
> I'm afraid I'm not that advanced a programmer yet. I never got to
> understanding templates in C++, and nothing of that sort was ever
> required in Python. But I've decided to learn every bit of Ada I can.

I think you will discover that generic "stuff" (packages, procedures
and so on...) are much easier to use/understand than C++ templates.
If I think to my fights with "friend templates" a shudder runs
down my spine... (Ok, I am exaggerating a little bit... :-)

> There must be at least one language I should master, and who knows,
> Ada might be it!

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Ankur Sethi <get.me.ankur@gmail.com> writes:
> There's a Wikibook, but I've found it incomplete at several places
> and there are a lot of concepts I can't grasp.

It would be nice if you could tell us which parts of the Wikibook you
would like to see improved.  I'm sure there are several people on this
newsgroup who would gladly help.

Welcome on board!

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ankur Sethi]

> It would be nice if you could tell us which parts of the Wikibook you
> would like to see improved.

I didn't get too far into the book, but one chapter I feel needs work
is the one on the Ada type system. The code examples later in the
chapter went right over my head. Moreover, some beginning chapters
have paragraphs that seem out of place. They seem to have a paragraph
about concurrency somewhere in the first chapter. My reaction was :
"eh?".

It's a very nice book, yes. But for a newbie, it's not much help.
Somebody who has been programming for a while will undoubtedly pick up
Ada pretty quickly from that book. I found John English's "The Craft
of OO Programming" much better, although it is targeted towards
complete beginners and not people like me who already know how to use
another language (and covers Ada95, not Ada05).

A question : when was the Ada 2005 standard defined? Wikipedia says it
was in 2007. If that's true, we should soon be having books about it,
right?

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ludovic Brenta]

Ankur Sethi writes:
>> It would be nice if you could tell us which parts of the Wikibook you
>> would like to see improved.
>
> I didn't get too far into the book, but one chapter I feel needs work
> is the one on the Ada type system. The code examples later in the
> chapter went right over my head. Moreover, some beginning chapters
> have paragraphs that seem out of place. They seem to have a paragraph
> about concurrency somewhere in the first chapter. My reaction was :
> "eh?".

I'll look into it I wrote or rewrote most of that chapter :) Of
course, if someone else beats me to it, that will be even better :)

> It's a very nice book, yes. But for a newbie, it's not much help.
> Somebody who has been programming for a while will undoubtedly pick up
> Ada pretty quickly from that book. I found John English's "The Craft
> of OO Programming" much better, although it is targeted towards
> complete beginners and not people like me who already know how to use
> another language (and covers Ada95, not Ada05).

I too like John English's book.  Despite having 15 years programming
experience, I enjoyed it when first learning Ada. YMMV.

> A question : when was the Ada 2005 standard defined? Wikipedia says it
> was in 2007. If that's true, we should soon be having books about it,
> right?

Finalised in 2005, approved and published by ISO in March 2007.  Yes,
John Barnes' book has already been updated.  He also wrote the
Rationale for Ada 2005 which is available on http://www.adaic.com.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ed Falis]

You may find Richard Riehle's "Ada 95 Distilled" useful too.  
http://www.computer-books.us/ada95_2.php

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Michael Feldman]

Ed Falis wrote:
> You may find Richard Riehle's "Ada 95 Distilled" useful too. 
> http://www.computer-books.us/ada95_2.php

I recommend this one as well. Lots of good program examples. The author 
is a long-experienced teacher of Ada in industry.

http://www.adaic.com has several more downloadable books.

Mike Feldman

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Paul]

"Michael Feldman" <mfeldman@gwu.edu> wrote in message 
news:g19i5d$agd$1@aioe.org...
> Ed Falis wrote:
>> You may find Richard Riehle's "Ada 95 Distilled" useful too. 
>> http://www.computer-books.us/ada95_2.php
>
> I recommend this one as well. Lots of good program examples. The author is 
> a long-experienced teacher of Ada in industry.
>
> http://www.adaic.com has several more downloadable books.
>
> Mike Feldman

Ludovic already mentioned him but I recommend John Barnes' book "Programming 
in Ada".  Don't know what edition is current but I have both the 2nd and 3rd 
editions.  The 2nd edition nearly fell apart because of the use it got.  I 
had no formal training in Ada but had a background in Pascal and assembler. 
The application I wrote in the mid to late 80's is still in  use today.

Paul 

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Randy Brukardt]

"Ankur Sethi" <get.me.ankur@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:7a25cac8-40d6-4c92-84f6-b3e7187f4fe9@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
...
> A question : when was the Ada 2005 standard defined? Wikipedia says it
> was in 2007. If that's true, we should soon be having books about it,
> right?

There are at least a few books out at this time. See 
http://www.adaic.org/learn/textbook.html. I don't know of any freebees yet, 
though. (I believe Richard Riehle said he was updating Ada Distilled, but he 
obviously hasn't finished that yet.)

                                              Randy Brukardt.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sébastien]

> It would be nice if you could tell us which parts of the Wikibook you
> would like to see improved.  I'm sure there are several people on this
> newsgroup who would gladly help.
> 
> Welcome on board!

Some libraries implementation ar missing, like containers / directories, 
but there is another documentation about it:

http://www.martin.dowie.btinternet.co.uk/

Sebastien

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Thomas Locke]

Ankur Sethi wrote:
> So, what would an amateur, cash deprived programmer like me do to
> learn Ada? 


I've had much benefit from studying this link:

http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Ada

Sort of a cookbook project.  :o)


> PS : Once I learn this language, I *swear* I'm writing my own
> tutorials so other hobbyists can benefit.


I feel just like you! I'm also a beginner, and I've had much trouble 
finding material for what you call "hobbyists".

It seems as if most Ada related literature is written for people with 
extensive programming knowledge - there's not much to go on for the 
average "wet behind the ears" beginner.

Perhaps we should see if we can round up all the newbies out there, and 
combine our efforts? We could help make the Ada Wiki more newbie 
friendly.  :o)

/Thomas

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Georg Bauhaus]

Thomas Locke schrieb:

> It seems as if most Ada related literature is written for people with 
> extensive programming knowledge - there's not much to go on for the 
> average "wet behind the ears" beginner.

Have you seen this,
David J. Naiditch, Rendevouz with Ada 95.

Also, start at chapter 2, not 1, in John English's book,
http://www.cmis.brighton.ac.uk/~je/adacraft/ch02.htm

> Perhaps we should see if we can round up all the newbies out there, and 
> combine our efforts? We could help make the Ada Wiki more newbie 
> friendly.  :o)

The Wikibook has just a few tutorial pages; would you think
that tutorial examples alongside the concepts will help?
Or does the need to have something fully targetted at specific
questions? If so, please ask. Maybe here, or maby on the
discussion pages in the Wikibook.


  -- Georg

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Thomas Locke]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Have you seen this,
> David J. Naiditch, Rendevouz with Ada 95.


Nope, haven't seen that. Thanks!


> Also, start at chapter 2, not 1, in John English's book,
> http://www.cmis.brighton.ac.uk/~je/adacraft/ch02.htm


A very nice link. Thanks again Georg.


> The Wikibook has just a few tutorial pages; would you think
> that tutorial examples alongside the concepts will help?


YES!

For the average IQ person, I believe examples are much easier to grasp 
than pure concepts. Combine the two, and everything is golden, IMHO.

I think a good example of a near perfect online "manual" is how the PHP 
folks have done it.

http://php.net/manual

I know that PHP is a *much* simpler language to write a manual for, as 
we're not as close to the metal as with Ada, but the concept of having 
examples littered all over the place is a good one. Also the user 
comments can be a great help.

The cross-references are also a great help, e.g. on the time() manual 
pages there are links to stuff like microtime() and date(), as their 
functionality overlaps to a certain degree.


> Or does the need to have something fully targetted at specific
> questions? 


I think this is handled quite well @ http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Ada

Perhaps a link to that site could be put on the wiki - somewhere 
visible.  :o)

/Thomas

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Manuel Gomez]

On 26 mayo, 14:05, Thomas Locke <tho...@kenshi.dk> wrote:
> I think this is handled quite well @http://www.rosettacode.org/wiki/Ada
>
> Perhaps a link to that site could be put on the wiki - somewhere
> visible.  :o)
>

I've just added it to our list of Wiki pages [1], where it definitely
should have already been.

[1] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming/Wikis

Regards
Manuel

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sébastien]

Hi Ankur,

I can share with you my experience since I started learning ada a few 
months ago.

First interesting think, you will get a lot of help in this forums since 
all my questions were answered here.

> I was attracted to Ada because it was :
> 1. Sanely Object Oriented - It doesn't force OO like Java and C#.

Yes, that's the point, even If I find out some standard library could be 
OO, I thinks, there si some advantage to choose what is an object and 
what is not, even if I'm a fan of OO paradigm.

> 2. Compiled - I *want* to do manual memory management so that I can at
> least understand what automatic garbage collection means to me. I've
> been living comfortably with Python for too long.
> 3. Uniform Syntax - I find C++ syntax weird. C was okay, though.

C++ is going to tghe right way. The compiler is really permissive, it's, 
it's not completly object, and you can do bad code that's not possible 
to maintain several weeks later. So there is some nice stuff in C++ (I'm 
working with C++ for years) but I still can't understand people that 
choose C++ for big application (like KDE and other graphics stuff), Ada 
could have been more suitable...

> I'm sure there are other benefits, but I really don't understand what
> they mean to me (yet).

The other benefits are mainly that Ada force you to write good code. 
What does it mean? It mean you have to exaclty say what you want to be 
done, so there is so few suprises in the runtime, that's amazing. I 
started to create a Web application to manage contacts in a callcenter 
learning ada in the same time. In less than one month, I get something 
working. I still need to improve the design to get my component more 
reusable, but it's just because I'm learning during developpement phase.

So I think that's a real good thing to learn Ada and to participate to 
the promotion of this language that too many people think it's already dead.

> So, what would an amateur, cash deprived programmer like me do to
> learn Ada? There are web tutorials, for for the 95 standard. There's a
> Wikibook, but I've found it incomplete at several places and there are
> a lot of concepts I can't grasp. There's the reference document, but I
> can't make head or tail of it.

The first step is to learn the main aspect of the language:
- Main syntax: Control structure, all the aspects of types, difference 
between new type and subtype, array, access type, limited and private type.
- Strings API: Ada.Strings.Fixed vs Ada.Strings.Unbounded. How to 
convert to string or from string. How to manage Intefeger and Float numbers.
- Ada programming style: Procedure, function and package, how to manage 
a project, the gpr files to get a project structured. in / in out / out 
/ access parameters, the difference and the use. The nested packages, 
procedures and functions.
- OO: tagged and record, overloading and polymorphism
- Error management: Exception in Ada, simple and powerfull.
- Generic: Making a generic package / procedure / function, how to use 
it. Why C++ templates can definitivly go to bed.
- Tasking: How to multitask a program, tasking is a part of the language 
in the difference of main language like C or Python.

Then you can start to leard a few intersting library functions: Containers.

The point is to create program for all this stuff to get familiar with 
them. For instance, create a program which read an integer, print it, 
calcul it. Try to see the contraint type, if your integer is too big, 
how ada manage? and so on. Then do the same with string, see how to 
store string, why you have to be carefull using string and why Unbounded 
strings can save your implementation and so on.

At least you will have to determine you first program, is a console 
program? Graphics program? Web program? Ada has library for all this stuff.

Sebastien

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Adrian Hoe]

On May 24, 12:53 pm, Ankur Sethi <get.me.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> n00b question? Probably. Can I find my answer somewhere else? Nope. Do
> I have any other place to turn to? Definitely not.
>
> I'm a hobbyist programmer just out of high school. I've been dabbling
> in C and Python for a while now, and would probably take up CS in
> college (just a few months from now).
>
> I was attracted to Ada because it was :
> 1. Sanely Object Oriented - It doesn't force OO like Java and C#.
> 2. Compiled - I *want* to do manual memory management so that I can at
> least understand what automatic garbage collection means to me. I've
> been living comfortably with Python for too long.
> 3. Uniform Syntax - I find C++ syntax weird. C was okay, though.
>
> I'm sure there are other benefits, but I really don't understand what
> they mean to me (yet).
>
> So, what would an amateur, cash deprived programmer like me do to
> learn Ada? There are web tutorials, for for the 95 standard. There's a
> Wikibook, but I've found it incomplete at several places and there are
> a lot of concepts I can't grasp. There's the reference document, but I
> can't make head or tail of it.
>
> A big, warm hearted "thank you" , in advance, to anybody who helps :)
>
> PS : Once I learn this language, I *swear* I'm writing my own
> tutorials so other hobbyists can benefit.


Welcome on board!

I learned Apple Basic, Pascal, FORTRAN and then C/C++ and with some
GUI languages such as Paradox before I got into Ada. At that time
(around 1995), the Ada resources on the Internet was scarce. I managed
to get a book by Jogn G. Barnes, "Programming in Ada" and later
Michael Feldman's 2 books, "Software Construction and Data Structures
with Ada95" and "Ada95 - Problem Solving and Program Design". Then I
managed to find John's 2nd book "Programming in Ada95". I would say
John's books are Ada's bible, apart the ARM.

You can find the books I have here: http://adrianhoe.com/adrianhoe/projects/ada/

Alternately, WikiBook is another good learning resource for Ada.

Start using Ada in whatever project you have. May it easy or
difficult. You will learn better when you bump into problems.

Enjoy Ada.
--
Adrian Hoe
http://adrianhoe.com/adrianhoe/

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sébastien]

> I learned Apple Basic, Pascal, FORTRAN and then C/C++ and with some
> GUI languages such as Paradox before I got into Ada. At that time
> (around 1995), the Ada resources on the Internet was scarce. I managed
> to get a book by Jogn G. Barnes, "Programming in Ada" and later
> Michael Feldman's 2 books, "Software Construction and Data Structures
> with Ada95" and "Ada95 - Problem Solving and Program Design". Then I
> managed to find John's 2nd book "Programming in Ada95". I would say
> John's books are Ada's bible, apart the ARM.

I'm interested in the book you mention, but I would like some king of 
book to Program Design in Ada 2005, is there any?

Sebastien

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Georg Bauhaus]

S�bastien schrieb:

> I'm interested in the book you mention, but I would like some king of 
> book to Program Design in Ada 2005, is there any?

http://archive.adaic.com/standards/83rat/html/ratl-TOC.html
has, I think, the spirit of Ada.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ludovic Brenta]

This discussion and the related points made in "Access procedure to
pointer" make me wonder how people who are now knowledgeable in Ada
learned the language.

As for me, I learned by reading John English's book cover to cover,
and I (think I) reached expert status by processing lots of bug
reports on GCC; this made me study the fine points of the AARM. I did
all that as a hobbyist (i.e. off hours), but I already had been
programming for 12 years in various languages when I started learning.

How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
people attend formal training?

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Ed Falis]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:02:19 -0400, Ludovic Brenta  
<ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

I was a grad student, and got hooked up with the program verification  
group at my university.  The professor was looking for someone to take  
over experimentation in implementing Ada tasking from someone else  
leaving.  I sat down in front of the computer, with a draft RM in hand  
(this was 1981), and learned the Pascal subset in a usable way in a few  
weeks.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Jeffrey R. Carter]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:
> 
> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

As a new hire at Martin Marietta Denver Aerospace in 1984, I was in a "leper 
colony" when an instructor looking for bodies tagged me to attend a short 
course. This involved watching videos of Ichbiah, Barnes, and Firth presenting 
Ada at the Ada Launch (1980 Dec 10). We also got copies of their slides. This 
introduced me to Ada 80.

At the time Pascal was my favorite language. I had read about information hiding 
in /Software Tools/, but never understood the concept until I encountered Ada 
packages.

I was then chosen to attend a 13-wk, full-time course, "Software Engineering 
with Ada", where I learned Ada 83 using the Rolm/Data General Ada compiler.

I learned Ada 95 and the current language on the job.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"Brave Sir Robin ran away."
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
59

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[mockturtle]

Ludovic Brenta ha scritto:

>
> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?
>

I got curious about Ada (less than 1 year ago) by reading an article
on a
computer magazine. I googled a little bit and found some tutorials.
Succesively, I started using Ada in some medium-complexity
projects (that I already developed in other languages) by keeping
the RM at hand.

Currently I can say that I feel confident with the basic stuff, but I
do
not consider myself an expert (even discarding the part that I just
skimmed
through such as Annex D and E).

More or less the same path was followed by a student of mine when
he started working on his final project with me...

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 05:02:19 -0700 (PDT), Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

I learned about Ada in 1984 or so, when I studied at my university. It was
not lessons, rather colloquium where it was shortly introduced. Ada didn't
impressed me. I was young and preferred PL/1. (:-)) Some time later I
gained the great Gehani's book and this changed everything. Already working
in the labs for remote sensing I feverishly searched for an Ada compiler
for RSX-11M, which we used there, with no success.[*] Nevertheless, when I
started my postgraduate work, I was determined to do it in Ada. I wrote
almost 90% of it without a compiler on paper sheets, before my supervisor
found a firm where I could access a VAX-11 clone with glorious DEC Ada
compiler.

----------
* I got some horrific five-passes monster, which took 20 minutes to compile
something like "hello world," and implemented less than a half of the
language. I don't know what it was.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Samuel Tardieu]

Ludovic> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada?
Ludovic> Did many people attend formal training?

I was an hobbyist, and I learned it by reading a draft version of
Ada95 RM in 1994. And I got hooked :)

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Alex R. Mosteo]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

Ada was used for some subjects in the university I attended (RT systems,
concurrent programming). At that time (1994), the language for "Introduction
to programming" was Pascal (nowadays it's Ada).

So I learned what I needed to do the practicals of these subjects, but the core
learning was "at will" by the student, which frankly I don't remember how I
did; probably with the Barnes book and trial-and-error.

Then, I used it for my final project and I'm using it for my PhD in robotics.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Steffen Huber]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:
> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

I started learning Ada (83) at university attending a short 2-day
course in preparation for a software project. Our introductory language
was Modula 2, so the step to Ada was comparatively small for the basic
language features. I used Ada for all subsequent software projects
during university, last project with Ada 95, but basically only using
Unbounded_String from the 95 "new feature set" ;-)

The diploma thesis was in C++ however, reinforcing my view that
Ada was the way to go.

When I decided to write a CD mastering software for RISC OS,
fortunately a GNAT port was available, so I implemented it
in Ada 95. This was the time when I read many Ada books
(Cohen, Barnes, Feldman) to get to grips with tagged types,
child packages etc.

Unfortunately, my daytime job is Java programming since
I didn't find a suitable "Ada" job when leaving university.

So when my brain needs a garbage collection from all the
Java stuff, I'm going back to my CD mastering software (actually,
it is now a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray mastering software) and enjoy
some Ada.

Steffen

-- 
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Stefan Bellon]

On Wed, 04 Jun, Steffen Huber wrote:
> Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>
> > How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> > people attend formal training?
> 
> I started learning Ada (83) at university attending a short 2-day
> course in preparation for a software project. Our introductory
> language was Modula 2, so the step to Ada was comparatively small for
> the basic language features. I used Ada for all subsequent software
> projects during university, last project with Ada 95, but basically
> only using Unbounded_String from the 95 "new feature set" ;-)
> 
> The diploma thesis was in C++ however, reinforcing my view that
> Ada was the way to go.

My background is similar to Steffen's in a way that I studied at the
same place (and thus same prof, Erhard Plödereder) than Steffen, just a
few years later, so I already started with Ada 95. Diploma thesis was in
C++ as well, which made me wish I had used Ada, too. But I needed GUI
and database bindings which made me look at Qt because at that time
GtkAda and GNADE were no real alternatives, I'm afraid.

> When I decided to write a CD mastering software for RISC OS, [...]

Steffen, you should have written "*the* CD mastering software for RISC
OS". ;-)

> Unfortunately, my daytime job is Java programming since
> I didn't find a suitable "Ada" job when leaving university.

After finishing university I joined staff of the Department of
Programming Languages at University of Stuttgart where Erhard
Plödereder is professor. There I was working on the Bauhaus project
which is implemented in Ada 95 to a large extent. The spin-off Axivion
is now providing solutions for stopping Software Erosion which are
implemented in Ada 95/2005 and based on the work at university. So, my
daytime job luckily involves programming in Ada. :-)

-- 
Stefan Bellon

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Maciej Sobczak]

On 3 Cze, 14:02, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada?

Your question is a bit incomplete and I think I can add something
interesting to the discussion.

I worked with C++ on systems that have high reliability requirements
(control systems, real-time, middleware). I believe I can use this
language very effectively and with high confidence, but I felt that
there is a margin for improvement in what I do that is not covered in
popular sources related to C++. I started to search for a source of
good and proven practice, guidelines and engineering approaches and
decided that Ada with its mature community is a good candidate to be
such a source. Obviously, one needs first to understand Ada to later
understand the existing experience of the community, so I started to
learn Ada and read whatever I was able to find (Barnes, Burns,
Wellings, AARM, Ravenscar, SPARK, etc.), experiment with small
projects and annoy you on this group. ;-)

Note the path: I did not use Ada at work, I was not a student taking
any Ada course, but I also do not consider myself to be a hobbyist. I
have decided to inject a good dose of proven software engineering
knowledge to my professional work, which is still not directly related
to Ada. I believe it was a very good decision and I recommend the same
to my fellows.

Note also that after three years of learning I still find Ada to be a
difficult and complex language and I'm still not confident in my
ability to attack complex problems without risking the project's
failure (easy projects are... just easy and do not prove anything).
Many language corners and lots of compiler (GNAT) problems I have
encountered on the way contributed to this perception and I find it
rather unfortunate. For this reason I do not think that Ada could
become the only language for me, but I see a lot of space for healthy
"cohabitation" between various languages. I will certainly keep the
link with Ada with an eye for its potential use in both professional
and out-of-work projects.

--
Maciej Sobczak * www.msobczak.com * www.inspirel.com

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[tmoran]

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada?
  I was a professional programmer who became curious about Ada after
attending a presentation in the early '80s.  When I saw an Ada compiler
available for the PC for $100 I bought it.  I tried various little
programs, then a video editor, as a hobby.  My first paid Ada app was in
fact delivered to the customer in C, but I designed, built, and tested it
in Ada, then transcribed to C.  (That was Ada 83)   Later I made Ada
programs (for pay) that were delivered in Ada.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sebastian Hanigk]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

Started with Ada a few years ago as part of a student lab project
(elevator control ...); on hiatus until a few weeks ago, now I'm mostly
reading books (got the Barnes and Burns) and trying to do smaller tasks
before I'm starting on something bigger.

Personal gripe: access to a free working Ada compiler is difficult on
non-Linux systems (OS X and Solaris/AMD64).


Sebastian

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Simon Wright]

Sebastian Hanigk <hanigk@in.tum.de> writes:

> Personal gripe: access to a free working Ada compiler is difficult
> on non-Linux systems (OS X and Solaris/AMD64).

For Mac OS X, see
http://gnuada.sourceforge.net/pmwiki.php/Install/MacOS as a starting
point (if you want PowerPC GNAT-GPL-2007, see
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12974&package_id=258771).

For Solaris x86, try
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12974&package_id=260618

--S

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sebastian Hanigk]

Simon Wright <simon.j.wright@mac.com> writes:

>> Personal gripe: access to a free working Ada compiler is difficult
>> on non-Linux systems (OS X and Solaris/AMD64).
>
> For Mac OS X, see
> http://gnuada.sourceforge.net/pmwiki.php/Install/MacOS as a starting
> point (if you want PowerPC GNAT-GPL-2007, see
> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12974&package_id=258771).

I'll try that, thanks. The currently installed Ada compiler is "GNATLS
4.2.3 20071217 (prerelease)" from ... well, I don't know.

> For Solaris x86, try
> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=12974&package_id=260618

Downloading at the moment, will test later.


Best regards,

Sebastian

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Sébastien Morand]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

I started learning ada a few months ago. I'm expert in C/C++, Bourne
Shell and PHP for my work and am gook skilled in Java and Python. I was
searching about something new to learn and that I could apply in a part
of my professional job.

So I'm right now learning Ada creating a Web application to manage some
qualified contacts of a call center. So I'm half a hobbyist, half a
professional since I could do the job in less than 2 weeks using PHP.

My main purpose now is o create some kind of library in order to be able
to develop in Ada as fast as I am in other languages.
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Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Jacob Sparre Andersen]

Ludovic Brenta asked:

> How about others? Were you a hobbyist when you learned Ada? Did many
> people attend formal training?

Sometime in 1990-93 I found a Swedish book on Ada 87 at the library.
I read it more or less cover-to-cover and was very impressed.  (At
that time I was using Borland Pascal.)  I spent some time trying to
find an Ada compiler without any luck. - Until the autumn 1994, where
I found both GNAT, the draft Ada 95 reference manual and
comp.lang.ada.  Since January 1995 I've mostly been using Ada.  At
that time I was a graduate student in physics.

All my data analysis software for my PhD project was written in Ada,
and when I continued in research I was allowed to continue using Ada.

Since then I've spent two years teaching software engineering;
including both Ada and a bit of SPARK.

Right now I'm an analyst in the portfolio management division of a
large bank. - And I still get to use Ada, but unfortunately not only
Ada.

So yes, I was a hobbyist when I learned Ada.

And no, I never attended formal training (except as the teacher).  I
started out with the ARM and added some textbooks later on.

Greetings,

Jacob
-- 
"constructive ambiguity"

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Randy Brukardt]

"Ludovic Brenta" <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote in message 
news:df8603e3-f095-416b-acc3-f15f128cbc71@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> This discussion and the related points made in "Access procedure to
> pointer" make me wonder how people who are now knowledgeable in Ada
> learned the language.

I was given an Ada subset as the language to implement for the compiler 
construction class at the University of Wisconsin (this was the 1980-81 
school year). At the time, I didn't know the language at all, and I don't 
think I did much programming in it the first year or so. We gradually 
expanded the subset (and moved the compiler to early PCs); I probably didn't 
really appreciate the eligance or advanced features until much later. After 
the first year, we ported the compiler into its own subset, and then I 
really learned how to program well in it. There weren't any books at the 
time (or we couldn't afford them - college students starting a business 
don't have much money - I recall that my 1982 income was $2400). I read some 
of the early textbooks later, and we used to sell copies of the Pyle book 
with the compiler.

(Aside: Eventually, we created our own textbook and matching video tape with 
Geoff Gilpin. The video tape tried to inject some humor into the talking 
heads approach of the other tapes we'd seen. Unfortunately, it nearly got 
Geoff killed. In the introduction to "exception handling", Geoff asked what 
would happen if a program divided by zero. What happened was that a Wile E. 
Coyote-style 10-ton weight fell onto Geoff and his computer. Of course, the 
prop was hollow so it covered him up completely. The first time they tried 
the scene, the thing floated down like a parachute. So they scrounged around 
the studio and came up with some weights to put on top of it. The next take, 
the thing came down with a bang and the wood frame shattered - leaving a 
nail a couple of inches from Geoff's forehead. I would have hated to have to 
explain that injury to the worker's compensation people... ;-) [However, 
that take looks great and was the one used on the final tape.] Humm, it 
would be nice to transcribe those from VHS tape to something digital, even 
though they would be much use these days (they're geared toward Ada 83 on 
MS-DOS). Could put them on our website or something.)

                                                  Randy.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[tmoran]

>would be nice to transcribe those from VHS tape to something digital, even
>though they would be much use these days (they're geared toward Ada 83 on
>MS-DOS). Could put them on our website or something.)
  Cool!  Do it!

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[Randy Brukardt]

<tmoran@acm.org> wrote in message 
news:19-dnWNkPNukX83VnZ2dnUVZ_tPinZ2d@comcast.com...
> >would be nice to transcribe those from VHS tape to something digital, 
> >even
>>though they would be much use these days (they're geared toward Ada 83 on
>>MS-DOS). Could put them on our website or something.)
>  Cool!  Do it!

Since I don't have (and never have had) a VHS tape deck, it would be 
seriously hard to do that. It surely isn't worth spending money to do. I'd 
have a better chance with 8" floppy disks (I've kept a set of those drives, 
although it would probably take a lot of futzing around [cleaning contacts 
and the like] to get them to work).

                                     Randy.

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[jdpetrey<REMOVE_TO_REPLY>]

I first looked at Ada seriously back in 1989 when I was working for a company 
doing a missile test set which was programmed in Forth.  They ask me to look 
at some new language options since Forth was considered a rather obscure 
language (even though it did a great job for what we were doing).  I had been 
aware of Ada�s development so I looked at it.  After reading �Ada: An Advanced 
Introduction� by Narain Gehani and getting a hold of an early MS-DOS compiler 
from RR-Software (thanks, Randy!), I was hooked!  We didn�t make the switch on 
that project but every job since then has been in Ada and I have never looked 
back.  Ada has been very rewarding to me, both financially and in knowing that 
I have created quality engineered products for safety and mission critical 
applications.  Ada is also my first choice for hobby projects or quick 
prototyping of new ideas.  I use it often to create Windows GUI-based hardware 
simulators that communicate over a serial port to other hardware devices.  I 
know Ada is declining in use now but I hope enough younger engineers discover 
the elegance and beauty of it as I did and keep it alive.


-- 
Jerry

Re: How Would a Hobbyist Learn Ada?

[ahab]

On May 23, 11:53 pm, Ankur Sethi <get.me.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, what would an amateur, cash deprived programmer like me do to
> learn Ada?

Ada for Software Engineers:
http://stwww.weizmann.ac.il/g-cs/benari/books/index.html#ase

Great book IMHO. Even better for the price.

And you might check out this reference card:
http://www.digilife.be/quickreferences/QRC/Ada%20Reference%20Card.pdf

Reading the RM is a skill that comes with time.