comp.lang.ada
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: "David K Allen" <dkallen@visi.com>
Subject: Re: Interresting thread in comp.lang.eiffel
Date: 2000/07/12
Date: 2000-07-12T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <qe_a5.259$6E.64803@ptah.visi.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: _dS95.9945$7%3.666180@news.flash.net

Riddle:
    When is a contract not a contract?
Answer:
    When they are two different words representing different concepts but
spelled and/or sounding the same (homonyms).
-----------------------------------------
"Ken Garlington" wrote in separate posts

> Wouldn't both sides have to agree to this contract for it to be legally
> valid?

> You understand, of course, that standard contracts are in fact negotiated?

I think, as Bertrand said earlier, that you two were talking on different
wavelengths.
He was talking "Design By Contract (DBC)" a formal method for designing
reliability into software to faciliate reuse.  It is a method which he knows
very well.
Based on the comments you made above, you were talking business contracts,
which you apparently know very well.
Your remarks are important in the context of business contracts, but they
are confusing in the context of "Design By Contract."
Please don't let the fact that "contract" is used as a metaphor in DBC
confuse you with the true meaning of the method.
Like all metaphors, it simply helps you get started, and adds a certain
flavor to the concepts it describes.  But the concept itself can only be
judged if you understand it accurately.

I certainly welcome your criticism of DBC. You are obviously a clear and
critical thinker with considerable experience in software development.  But
it will be more productive if you base your criticisms on what DBC really is
about rather than what you think it might be.
Instead of reacting to our attempts to explain DBC to you, one piece at a
time, perhaps it will be more useful for you if you read a clear
introduction to DBC which explains what it is really about.
http://www.eiffel.com/doc/manuals/technology/contract/page.html.
Others have tried to explain it, but you counter with examples like those
above which tell me you are criticizing DBC based on the mistaken notion
that it is supposed to perfectly model a business contract.

I can understand the confusion - especially in the context of the Ariane
disaster.  Because, in fact, there are issues of both kinds involved in this
situation.
There is a role for a discussion of "Design By Contract" as Dr. Meyer has
developed it, with the precise meanings of that method.
Then there is also a role for discussing how to design software in the
context of business contracts among multiple contractors and subcontractors
where a conglomerate of different nations are the project sponsors (yikes
what a tough deal!).  Although they can have some relationship, they are not
the same thing.

Applying business principles to the software engineering "Design By
Contract" will not really help much.
Conversely, trying to apply Dr. Meyer's software engineering principles to
the socio-political issues will not help either.
They are two different domains with different principles and techniques.

But the point is that if DBC were a component of the software development
method used to build Ariane, then any attempts to reuse software from a
previous project would force the issue that the new project teams MUST HAVE
the specifications of any modules they intend to reuse.   If that had been
part of the software develoment culture, then the subcontractor would have
required the additional information and the contractor would have gladly
complied and provided it.  This would have reduced, though not eliminated
the "art of guessing how much a contractor must provide to a subcontractor"
which you described earlier.
--
Best Wishes,
David Kreth Allen
Software Consultant
Minneapolis, Minnesota - USA







  parent reply	other threads:[~2000-07-12  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <8ipvnj$inc$1@wanadoo.fr>
     [not found] ` <8j67p8$afd$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
     [not found]   ` <slrn8leffq.ebq.gisle@spurv.ii.uib.no>
     [not found]     ` <395886DA.CCE008D2@deepthought.com.au>
     [not found]       ` <3958B07B.18A5BB8C@acm.com>
     [not found]         ` <y1d65.620$7%3.33446@news.flash.net>
     [not found]           ` <395A0ECA.940560D1@acm.com>
     [not found]             ` <8jd4bb$na7$1@toralf.uib.no>
     [not found]               ` <8jfabb$1d8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
     [not found]                 ` <SVH65.1596$7%3.129344@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                   ` <8jt4i0$18ec7$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                     ` <nSt85.5388$7%3.424540@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                       ` <8k5a31$1p61t$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                         ` <qlt95.7824$7%3.596314@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                           ` <8k8p8m$1upjk$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                             ` <0cS95.9944$7%3.667682@news.flash.net>
2000-07-13  0:00                               ` Interresting thread in comp.lang.eiffel Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                           ` <3966D7B0.5D6475E4@earthlink.net>
     [not found]                             ` <A5J95.9237$7%3.638838@news.flash.net>
2000-07-12  0:00                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2000-07-13  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-23  0:00                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2000-07-23  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-24  0:00                                       ` David Gillon
2000-07-24  0:00                                         ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-24  0:00                                       ` swhalen
2000-07-24  0:00                                     ` David Gillon
     [not found]                             ` <39688CA2.31B2A7EF@acm.com>
2000-07-13  0:00                               ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-13  0:00                                 ` Marin D. Condic
     [not found]                 ` <8jhq0m$30u5$1@toralf.uib.no>
     [not found]                   ` <8jt4j7$19hpk$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                     ` <3963CDDE.3E8FB644@earthlink.net>
     [not found]                       ` <8k5alv$1oogm$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                         ` <Rmt95.7825$7%3.595826@news.flash.net>
2000-07-13  0:00                           ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-13  0:00                             ` Marin D. Condic
2000-07-14  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-16  0:00                               ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-16  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-19  0:00                                   ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-19  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14  0:00                               ` Marin D. Condic
2000-07-14  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                       ` <3963DEBF.79C40BF1@eiffel.com>
     [not found]                         ` <2LS85.6100$7%3.493920@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                           ` <8k5aru$1odtq$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                             ` <Rnt95.7826$7%3.596208@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                               ` <8k8pk2$20cab$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]                                 ` <_dS95.9945$7%3.666180@news.flash.net>
2000-07-12  0:00                                   ` David K Allen [this message]
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` David Gillon
2000-07-13  0:00                                       ` David Gillon
2000-07-13  0:00                                         ` David K Allen
2000-07-13  0:00                                           ` Bob Allen
2000-07-13  0:00                                             ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-18  0:00                                               ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19  0:00                                                 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14  0:00                                         ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-13  0:00                                       ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-18  0:00                                       ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19  0:00                                         ` David Gillon
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Bob Allen
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-13  0:00                                         ` Bob Allen
2000-07-14  0:00                                           ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14  0:00                                             ` Marin D. Condic
2000-07-14  0:00                                             ` carr_tom
2000-07-18  0:00                                               ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` David K Allen
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` David K Allen
2000-07-13  0:00                                         ` Howard W. LUDWIG
2000-07-13  0:00                                           ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14  0:00                                           ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-14  0:00                                         ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-18  0:00                                           ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19  0:00                                             ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-19  0:00                                               ` Bob Allen
     [not found]                             ` <Rnt95.78 <L6vb5.16117$7%3.988701@news.flash.net>
2000-07-14  0:00                               ` Nick Williams
     [not found]                         ` <396502D2.BD8A42E7@earthlink.net>
     [not found]                           ` <RSsa5.11075$7%3.784507@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                             ` <6aHa5.113$6E.23141@ptah.visi.com>
     [not found]                               ` <396B4A68.458FA3BC@maths.unine.ch>
     [not found]                                 ` <u6hp4i16$GA.283@cpmsnbbsa07>
2000-07-11  0:00                                   ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Bob Allen
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` David Starner
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Peter Amey
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` Peter Amey
2000-07-13  0:00                                       ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-11  0:00                                   ` cropt
     [not found]                           ` <39654639.B3760EF2@eiffel.com>
     [not found]                             ` <i4k95.7512$7%3.571616@news.flash.net>
     [not found]                               ` <oqog45g1j0.fsf@premise.demon.co.uk>
     [not found]                                 ` <85Fa5.11419$7%3.818927@news.flash.net>
2000-07-11  0:00                                   ` Aspects (Re: Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel) tom
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Steve Merrick
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` Frank Mitchell
2000-07-14  0:00                                         ` Jubilation
2000-07-14  0:00                                           ` Frank Mitchell
2000-07-15  0:00                                             ` Jubilation
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` tom
2000-07-12  0:00                                   ` Design by Contract (was " David Kristola
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Howard W. LUDWIG
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` Greg
2000-07-12  0:00                                         ` Eirik Mangseth
2000-07-13  0:00                                       ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14  0:00                                         ` David Kristola
2000-07-14  0:00                                           ` Matthew J Heaney
2000-07-16  0:00                                           ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-17  0:00                                             ` David Kristola
2000-07-19  0:00                                               ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-25  0:00                                                 ` Richard Riehle
2000-07-12  0:00                                     ` Greg
2000-07-12  0:00                                       ` Matthew J Heaney
2000-07-13  0:00                                         ` Eirik Mangseth
2000-07-18  0:00                               ` Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
2000-07-19  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                             ` <i4k95.7512$7%3.571616@n <397D8CC3.BB0C9001@ix.netcom.com>
2000-07-29  0:00                               ` Writing better software was: Design by Contract (was Re: Interesting thread in comp.lang.eiffel) Kent Paul Dolan
2000-07-29  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-31  0:00                                   ` Stefan Skoglund
2000-08-01  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-08-01  0:00                                   ` Kent Paul Dolan
2000-08-01  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-31  0:00                                 ` Simon Brady
2000-07-30  0:00                                   ` John Magness
2000-08-01  0:00                                     ` Simon Brady
2000-08-01  0:00                                       ` Simon Brady
2000-08-04  0:00                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2000-08-04  0:00                                           ` Simon Brady
2000-08-01  0:00                                       ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]   ` <39573CAB.BB90DF92@gecm.com>
     [not found]     ` <8j8ek0$24la$3@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]       ` <3957ED3E.E64E7390@lmco.com>
     [not found]         ` <8k8orn$1tlh9$1@ID-9852.news.cis.dfn.de>
     [not found]           ` <94S95.9936$7%3.667320@news.flash.net>
2000-07-13  0:00             ` Interresting thread in comp.lang.eiffel Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-14  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
2000-07-16  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
2000-07-16  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]   ` <8j7i54$j7d5@news.kvaerner.com>
     [not found]     ` <395887EB.8D612FC7@deepthought.com.au>
     [not found]       ` <395A190E.FD4D8978@easystreet.com>
     [not found]         ` <6Yt65.3417$MS3.72586@news1.online.no>
     [not found]           ` <395A7E7E.FE57E036@easystreet.com>
     [not found]             ` <8jermi$5cb2@news.kvaerner.com>
     [not found]               ` <395BCE66.2BE8EE0A@eiffel.com>
     [not found]                 ` <wccaeg3gj61.fsf@world.std.com>
     [not found]                   ` <395D113D.1F654A68@eiffel.com>
     [not found]                     ` <dus75.5086$MS3.105182@news1.online.no>
     [not found]                       ` <395E5D16.C4D109F1@eiffel.com>
2000-07-18  0:00                         ` Interesting " Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
replies disabled

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox