BIND

BIND

[Andrew Carroll]

Peeps,

Well, I see the Ada BIND project is already met with some 
resistance.  The only thing I can see that would bring about such 
a large resistance to this project is that there is already work 
being done on _an_ "Ada BIND" that is not Open Source.

Interesting...

You know, I used to be a big antagonist of what Microsoft 
does, like their move in the XML area for their office products. 
Calling or writing them all day long and telling them their making 
a big mistake doesn't seem to stop them.  Come to think of it, 
maybe that's why Microsoft does "that" kind of stuff every now 
and then.  Just to "shake off" those companies that have come 
up with a product that is dependent on a Microsoft API or 
interface or "something".  The product that those companies are 
making may actually hurt the bottom line of Microsoft; if they 
didn't change things.  Is it possible that the Ada BIND project 
could hurt someone's bottom line?  

Hmmm, I now have to wonder...

I also have to laugh.  The Ada BIND project, at this point, is 
nothing more than an account on sourceforge.  There are no 
documents, no designs and no source code.  There are a bunch 
of RFCs and possibly some C code to dig through.  No work 
has been done, no evaluation of scope has been done, no 
feasibility assessment has been done, no requirements gathered, 
no stakeholders identified and no vision document drawn up.  
Yet many of you are reacting to the Ada BIND proposal like 
we just squashed your sweet little wiener dog with our big Ford 
1-ton 4x4 truck.  It is such an over reaction that it is funny.

Maybe you should take a deep breath, organize your thoughts 
and then present them to us as issues to resolve instead of 
issues to kill the project?  Maybe you feel left out?  Maybe you 
feel we stepped on your toes?  I don't know what your thinking 
and maybe this is an opportunity to voice your concerns in such 
a way that will not only get your voice recognized but also help 
with the project.

What I am saying is that I'm not convinced that the project 
should be killed.  Give me some proof and then I might change 
my mind.  Well, in reality we should continue the discussion on 
the project mailing list.

adabind-public@lists.sourceforge.net
https://sourceforge.net/projects/adabind/

P.S.
That's not an invitation to send me emails directly.  Please use 
the project mailing list.

Andrew Carroll
Carroll-Tech
720-273-6814
andrew@carroll-tech.net

Re: BIND

[chris]

Andrew Carroll wrote:

> I also have to laugh.  The Ada BIND project, at this point, is 
> nothing more than an account on sourceforge.  There are no 
> documents, no designs and no source code.  There are a bunch 
> of RFCs and possibly some C code to dig through.  No work 
> has been done, no evaluation of scope has been done, no 
> feasibility assessment has been done, no requirements gathered, 
> no stakeholders identified and no vision document drawn up.  
> Yet many of you are reacting to the Ada BIND proposal like 
> we just squashed your sweet little wiener dog with our big Ford 
> 1-ton 4x4 truck.  It is such an over reaction that it is funny.

I think the problem is that

"The Ada BIND project, at this point, is nothing more than an account on 
sourceforge.  There are no documents, no designs and no source code. 
There are a bunch of RFCs and possibly some C code to dig through.  No 
work has been done, no evaluation of scope has been done, no feasibility 
assessment has been done, no requirements gathered, no stakeholders 
identified and no vision document drawn up."

?

Re: BIND

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Andrew Carroll wrote:

> I also have to laugh.  The Ada BIND project, at this point, is 
> nothing more than an account on sourceforge.  There are no 
> documents, no designs and no source code.  There are a bunch 
> of RFCs and possibly some C code to dig through.  No work 
> has been done, no evaluation of scope has been done, no 
> feasibility assessment has been done, no requirements gathered, 
> no stakeholders identified and no vision document drawn up.  
> Yet many of you are reacting to the Ada BIND proposal like 
> we just squashed your sweet little wiener dog with our big Ford 
> 1-ton 4x4 truck.  It is such an over reaction that it is funny.

I fully agree.

Certainly those that propose to work on this project are in the
best position to judge their own interest, goals and resources.

There is nothing wrong with competition either. I for one, would
very much welcome some additional choice in this area, and
would certainly welcome any Ada implementation, if it delivers
on the important goals. A reference BIND implementation is fine,
but a reference implementation need not be the production version.

Let them have a go at it. Allow them time to work out their
vision and research. This discussion seems to have attracted
the seagulls, which is unfortunate. (A seagull flies into the
room, and craps over everything)

> What I am saying is that I'm not convinced that the project 
> should be killed.  Give me some proof and then I might change 
> my mind.  Well, in reality we should continue the discussion on 
> the project mailing list.
> 
> adabind-public@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/adabind/

I think instead, the discussion should be centered on how it
can succeed. It is always easier to criticize than to create.

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://ve3wwg.tk

Re: BIND

[Lutz Donnerhacke]

* Warren W. Gay VE3WWG wrote:
> I think instead, the discussion should be centered on how it
> can succeed. It is always easier to criticize than to create.

 First: Downsize the goals.
Second: Implement a simple DNS proxy for NS, SOA, A, MX, CNAME and PTR.
 Third: Implement authoritive zones.
Fourth: Extent the software to other types namely to IPv6.
 Fifth: Rewrite the whole package from scratch to implement DNSSEC.
 Sixth: Restart this process for the directory protocol used now.

I'd contribute:
  Stream_Text_IO (Basic Text_IO over Ada.Streams.Root_Stream_Type'Class)
  Skip_Stream and Memory_Stream (indexable Stream_Type over Storage_Elements)
  UDP and TCP server handling packages
  Ringbuffer for Queuing

But I can't contribute it to sourcefourge, because I have enought trouble
developing at work.

Re: BIND

[Alexei Polkhanov]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:36:36 +0000, Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:

> * Warren W. Gay VE3WWG wrote:
>> I think instead, the discussion should be centered on how it
>> can succeed. It is always easier to criticize than to create.
Agree! 

50% of success is in good plan!

Requirements, good design - only rest is coding and testing. 
I am surprised why this problem was approached from another 
end - choice of programming language ??? :)

> 
>  First: Downsize the goals.
I would merge DHCP and DNS together in a single product. There is several
reasons for that.

> Second: Implement a simple DNS proxy for NS, SOA, A, MX, CNAME and PTR.
Sounds almost trivial.

>  Third: Implement authoritive zones.
I suppose support for RDBMS and HUGE ZONES is what we need here. If you 
have 2,000,000 record zone it takes 20 min to reload it. BIND has an 
"rndc" tool which reloads zone files without restarting whole 
thing. When you have such big zone you expect many changes to it too. 
This problem needs some speacial approach.

> Fourth: Extent the software to other types namely to IPv6.
IPv6 is would be a small implementation detail, don't make it look like a
major undertaking, AAAA records plus some IPv6/IPv4 migration stuff. 

National languages support, special records and extentions which need to 
be taken care of. Latest I've heard is an extention for IP Phones. 

"www.domain.com" notation is very technical, network - centric, so some 
people trying to comeup with more human - readable names, and that going
to be in next versions of BIND. Why I cannot type "Congress Library" but I
have to go and type "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov" ? So most of us ill go
to Google because they cannot remember domain name and then will type it
in browser - why can't we skip this step ?

>  Fifth: Rewrite the whole package from scratch to implement DNSSEC.
Yeah! Here is a Huge piece of code which is not the best part of BIND and
sounds like we already have some issues like encryption libraries. Nothing
I know of except thin bindings to OpenSSL. 

Also there is TSIG, and SPLIT DNS (when you have all zone records divided
into subsets with different access rules or permissions). Right now this
feature "implemented" by config files hackery and having multiple
instances of BIND running on different machines sharing only parts of zone
records.

>  Sixth: Restart this process for the directory protocol used now.
> 
> I'd contribute:
>   Stream_Text_IO (Basic Text_IO over Ada.Streams.Root_Stream_Type'Class)
>   Skip_Stream and Memory_Stream (indexable Stream_Type over Storage_Elements)
>   UDP and TCP server handling packages

Would be nice to have this thing working on MOST unix platforms, so sounds
like Florist can be used here...

>   Ringbuffer for Queuing
> 
> But I can't contribute it to sourcefourge, because I have enought trouble
> developing at work.

Means it also nice to find a _sponsor_ at least for some UNIX hardware and
some network for testbed...

---
Alexei Polkhanov
Sr. Consultant/Software Systems Analyst
Tel: (604) 719-2515
E-mail: usenet@monteaureus.com
http://www.monteaureus.com/

Re: BIND

[Georg Bauhaus]

Alexei Polkhanov <usenet@monteaureus.com> wrote:

: Why I cannot type "Congress Library" but I
: have to go and type "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov" ?

<ot>It's because few *hyper*texts, home made or ready made, contain
these valuable secret things called cross-portal *links*, hidden
behind some useful humal readable word(s). A non-technical problem ;-)
If user controlled navigation weren't restricted to one place on
a typical computer screen...  OTOH, Google etc are solving this
problem.</>


-- Georg

Re: BIND

[Lutz Donnerhacke]

* Alexei Polkhanov wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:36:36 +0000, Lutz Donnerhacke wrote:
>>  First: Downsize the goals.
> I would merge DHCP and DNS together in a single product. There is several
> reasons for that.

NO! It's dumb, dumb, and dumb again.

>> Second: Implement a simple DNS proxy for NS, SOA, A, MX, CNAME and PTR.
> Sounds almost trivial.

Welcome to the real world.

>>  Third: Implement authoritive zones.
> I suppose support for RDBMS and HUGE ZONES is what we need here. If you
> have 2,000,000 record zone it takes 20 min to reload it. BIND has an
> "rndc" tool which reloads zone files without restarting whole
> thing. When you have such big zone you expect many changes to it too.

rndc is a frontend to Bind, not a solution!

> This problem needs some speacial approach.

Yep, that's why leave it out as long as possible.

>> Fourth: Extent the software to other types namely to IPv6.
> IPv6 is would be a small implementation detail, don't make it look like a
> major undertaking, AAAA records plus some IPv6/IPv4 migration stuff.

Wrong! There is no working IPv6 implementation of GNAT.Sockets.
There are years of failures in understanding and setting up IPv6.
You are on the best way to redo all this mistakes again.

> National languages support, special records and extentions which need to
> be taken care of. Latest I've heard is an extention for IP Phones.

GNA! Stop implementing anything! Please READ a specification first!
You do not understand what you are talking about. Please drop this project!

> "www.domain.com" notation is very technical, network - centric, so some
> people trying to comeup with more human - readable names, and that going
> to be in next versions of BIND. Why I cannot type "Congress Library" but I
> have to go and type "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov" ? So most of us ill go
> to Google because they cannot remember domain name and then will type it
> in browser - why can't we skip this step ?

You are looking f�r HDDB or other distributed hierarchical databases, but
this is a major step away from the Bind project. (Please note, that I
suggest as the very first step: "Downsize the goals!")

>>  Fifth: Rewrite the whole package from scratch to implement DNSSEC.
> Yeah! Here is a Huge piece of code which is not the best part of BIND and
> sounds like we already have some issues like encryption libraries.
> Nothing I know of except thin bindings to OpenSSL.

I can contribute even Hash, Symmetric, and Asymmetric Packages using generic
class wide programming, but I doubt it will help anything.

> Also there is TSIG, and SPLIT DNS (when you have all zone records divided
> into subsets with different access rules or permissions). Right now this
> feature "implemented" by config files hackery and having multiple
> instances of BIND running on different machines sharing only parts of zone
> records.

Do not touch those areas. They are braindead klugdes. Do not implement such
things. If you come to this requirement in 2007, you might consider views.

>> I'd contribute:
>>   Stream_Text_IO (Basic Text_IO over Ada.Streams.Root_Stream_Type'Class)
>>   Skip_Stream and Memory_Stream (indexable Stream_Type over Storage_Elements)
>>   UDP and TCP server handling packages
>
> Would be nice to have this thing working on MOST unix platforms, so sounds
> like Florist can be used here...

So please stick to Florist.

> Means it also nice to find a _sponsor_ at least for some UNIX hardware and
> some network for testbed...

GNA? From what system do post? Ada is for portable programming! You do not
need any other hardware than a low end development system.

(My programming, testing, and debugging enviroment is a Pentium 133Mhz with
 32MB of RAM for Unix/Linux development.)

Re: BIND

[David Starner]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:58:32 -0400, Alexei Polkhanov wrote:

> Why I cannot type "Congress Library" but I
> have to go and type "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov" ? 

Which Congress Library? The Trades Unions Congress Library, or the 
Palau Congress Library? Or do you want the American Library Associations
Congress on Library and Information Services? Or the World Library and
Information Congress?

As a human in context, I would guess you mean the Library of Congress, but
my guesses aren't always right. What should "Steve Jackson" take you to?
Steve Jackson Games? The personal webpage of Steve Jackson (of SJG)?
The Steve Jackson who's a professor of biology at Cambridge? The Steve
Jackson who's a professor of botany at the University of Wyoming? The
page of the Steve Jackson that started Games Workshop?

Secondly, I've see few web address like "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov". The
Library of Congress is www.loc.gov. Most people who need that site more
than once or twice can remember that 11 character, especially as it's www
(terribly common) + loc (Library Of Congress) + gov (since it's a US
government institution.) Likewise www.sjgames.com isn't terribly hard to
remember either. Much easier than a 10 digit phone number. The hard ones
tend to be obscure and transitory, which would be terribly hard to fit
into your system. 

Finally, just like people record the phone numbers important to them,
people can bookmark pages they want to go back to. If you want "Congress
Library" to go to www.loc.gov, you can do so, and no one will complain. If
you want Steve Jackson to link to your grandson's webpage, no problem.

Re: BIND

[Alexei Polkhanov]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:34:12 +0000, David Starner wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:58:32 -0400, Alexei Polkhanov wrote:
> 
>> Why I cannot type "Congress Library" but I
>> have to go and type "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov" ? 
> 
> Which Congress Library? The Trades Unions Congress Library, or the 
> Palau Congress Library? Or do you want the American Library Associations
> Congress on Library and Information Services? Or the World Library and
> Information Congress?
> 
> As a human in context, I would guess you mean the Library of Congress, but
> my guesses aren't always right. What should "Steve Jackson" take you to?
> Steve Jackson Games? The personal webpage of Steve Jackson (of SJG)?
> The Steve Jackson who's a professor of biology at Cambridge? The Steve
> Jackson who's a professor of botany at the University of Wyoming? The
> page of the Steve Jackson that started Games Workshop?
> 
> Secondly, I've see few web address like "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov". The
> Library of Congress is www.loc.gov. Most people who need that site more
> than once or twice can remember that 11 character, especially as it's www
> (terribly common) + loc (Library Of Congress) + gov (since it's a US
> government institution.) Likewise www.sjgames.com isn't terribly hard to
> remember either. Much easier than a 10 digit phone number. The hard ones
> tend to be obscure and transitory, which would be terribly hard to fit
> into your system. 
> 

I am not imagining this things. There an RFC draft already, protocol called XRP. 
http://www.icann.org/tlds/agreements/biz/draft-brunner-xrp-00.txt 

> Finally, just like people record the phone numbers important to them,
> people can bookmark pages they want to go back to. If you want "Congress
> Library" to go to www.loc.gov, you can do so, and no one will complain. If
> you want Steve Jackson to link to your grandson's webpage, no problem.

from my understanding XRP is including DNS in its recent form as a subset.

We should really change subject from BIND to XRP then. Leave the BIND alone
and think about implementation of XRP server which has little to do with
BIND.

Sorry, whole discussion now sounds like an offtopic here, this is Ada 
newsgroup after all.

---
Alexei Polkhanov
Sr. Consultant/Software Systems Analyst
Tel: (604) 719-2515
E-mail: usenet@monteaureus.com
http://www.monteaureus.com/

XRP

[Lutz Donnerhacke]

* Alexei Polkhanov wrote:
> We should really change subject from BIND to XRP then. Leave the BIND alone
> and think about implementation of XRP server which has little to do with
> BIND.

Fine. I'm feeling comfortable with this project.

Re: BIND

[Marius Amado Alves]

> > Why I cannot type "Congress Library" but I
> > have to go and type "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov" ?
>
> Which Congress Library? The Trades Unions Congress Library, or the
> Palau Congress Library?...

You don't need cryptism to have identity. The string "Trades Unions Congress 
Library" is just as unique as "dsgdsgf.dsfgdsfg.hfdhdf.gov".

Now, of course a smart system would help the user pinpoint the entity, using 
name similarity heuristics. And this makes much more sense for 'real' names 
(e.g "Congress Library") than to (current state) URLs.

Re: XRP

[Rod Chapman]

Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> wrote in message news:<slrnc8uv54.ne.lutz@taranis.iks-jena.de>...
> * Alexei Polkhanov wrote:
> > We should really change subject from BIND to XRP then. Leave the BIND alone
> > and think about implementation of XRP server which has little to do with
> > BIND.
> 
> Fine. I'm feeling comfortable with this project.

If you're really serious about a high-integrity implementation,
then why not do it in SPARK?  We'd might be able to support
such an effort (in terms of tools and support, if not actual
engineering effort... :-) )

The SPARK toolset is, of course, totally free to University faculty...
 - Rod, SPARK Team

Re: XRP

[Craig Carey]

On 29 Apr 2004 00:58:18 -0700, ***@praxis-cs.co.uk (Rod Chapman) wrote:
>Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@iks-jena.de> wrote:
...
>If you're really serious about a high-integrity implementation,
>then why not do it in SPARK?  We'd might be able to support
>such an effort (in terms of tools and support, if not actual
>engineering effort... :-) )
>
>The SPARK toolset is, of course, totally free to University faculty...
> - Rod, SPARK Team


Indeed, SparkAda's availability seems to drop a lot if a vice-chancellor
expells a computer science professor, etc.. University faculties:
  http://www.praxis-cs.co.uk/sparkada/universities.asp

Suppose hypothetically that an Australian computer science professor was
forced out of the university. E.g. there is the case of Mr Ted Steele
of Wollongong University, who was dismissed on 26 Feb 2001 (by
vice-chancellor, Mr G. Sutton):

  http://www.nteu.org.au/campaigns/archive/steele/3751/3752 "Timeline"
  http://www.nteu.org.au/gui/search/index.php?searchQuery=steele

and eventually "re-instated by the University in April 2002":

  http://www.nteu.org.au/news/2002/2002/4283

If the associate professor and molecular immunologist had of been in the
topic of computer science, and the only enthusiast for Praxis's software,
then they could have missed out in that interval.

http://www.uow.edu.au/science/biol/hon_assess/Steele%20Trap.pdf
 "Steel Trap"
 "[Mr Steele had] dissented from the averaged marks given by one
  external and two internal examiners to a local HECS honours student he
  had supervised."

Spark has an impressive list of restrictions. I didn't see error messages
produced by the software (a listing of proof syntax errors and warnings).

It seemed that generic packages can't contain only type declarations.

What is the species of the bird in the PDFs?.


Craig Carey