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From: "Dr. Adrian Wrigley" <amtw@linuxchip.demon.co.uk.uk.uk>
Subject: Re: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:47:20 GMT
Date: 2006-05-29T13:47:20+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <pan.2006.05.29.13.50.51.330501@linuxchip.demon.co.uk.uk.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 4e078qF1cb6frU1@individual.net

On Mon, 29 May 2006 14:21:16 +0200, Jan Vorbr�ggen wrote:

>> The adverse consequences of exceeding bounds can be seen to
>> outweigh the (usually) modest costs in code size and performance that
>> even mature code should ship with checks enabled, IMO.
> 
> I am of the opinion that the Ariane 5 exprience shows that this is not
> true in general. Had that exception been caught and dismissed by a last-
> chance exception handler, the flight would have succeeded. The point is
> that while some exceptions could be generated, there was no clear way of
> handling them in any useful way, so ignoring them at least gives a chance
> of success in such a situation, while just shutting down by default will
> guarantee failure. An operational weather forecast is a similar situation:
> I'd rather have at least some results _now_, instead of restarting the
> prediction (after the bug has been fixed) and getting them just after the
> storm surge has drowned a lot of people.

I think you're saying code shouldn't check for serious errors if
the system shuts down when they're found!  Surely this is
application dependent?  Banking software users might prefer
the program to be stopped, while critical flight control software
users might prefer to pray.

I am comparing code compiled with array bounds and range checks against
code with no such checks.  With no checks, reading and writing of
completely unrelated data sometimes occurs causing unbounded errors.
With checks, exceptions can be raised, and the failure is bounded.
Usually, a system can be designed to do something better than
scribbling over unrelated memory!

You seem to be comparing different ways of handling unanticipated
exceptions.  Shutting down the system vs. dismissal by a last-chance
handler.  I agree with you on this point, for certain applications.

Making a generalisation on error detection from Araine 5 seems
a bit rash though.  Most software is not fail-deadly.  And if it
is, it gets some testing at the task in hand.  And if it can't be
tested, execution errors are checked and handled usefully.
Clearly, Ariane 5's case is not representative of the vast
bulk of real-world code.
--
Adrian




  reply	other threads:[~2006-05-29 13:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 314+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-05-22  4:54 Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-22  6:45 ` Brooks Moses
2006-05-22  7:41   ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-22 18:49     ` Brooks Moses
2006-05-23  5:51       ` Tim Prince
2006-05-23  8:56       ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-23 13:28         ` Greg Lindahl
2006-05-24  8:10           ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-24 15:19             ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-29 12:55               ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-24 15:24             ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-24 19:03               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-29 12:56                 ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-29 20:07                   ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-30  4:55                   ` robert.corbett
2006-05-30  7:05                     ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-22 11:48   ` Michael Metcalf
2006-05-22 12:01     ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-23  8:34   ` Jon Harrop
2006-05-22  7:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-23  8:32   ` Jon Harrop
2006-05-22  7:36 ` Greg Lindahl
2006-05-22 21:25   ` Ken Plotkin
2006-05-22 21:40     ` blmblm
2006-05-23  2:12       ` Ken Plotkin
2006-05-23 15:32     ` Pascal Obry
2006-05-23 17:33       ` Marc A. Criley
2006-05-22 10:34 ` Tim Prince
2006-05-22 12:52 ` George N. White III
2006-05-22 13:02 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2006-05-22 15:23   ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-22 16:20     ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-22 16:38       ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-22 16:41       ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-22 16:48       ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-23  2:12         ` news.hinet.net
2006-05-22 17:22       ` Paul Van Delst
2006-05-23  7:04         ` Gareth Owen
2006-05-23  7:02           ` Martin Krischik
2006-05-23 14:23           ` Rich Townsend
2006-05-23 17:24             ` Brooks Moses
2006-05-23 18:40               ` Rich Townsend
2006-05-23 21:17                 ` Martin Dowie
2006-05-24  2:21                   ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-26 15:18                     ` Martin Dowie
2006-05-25 19:43                 ` Janne Blomqvist
2006-05-24  5:26       ` robin
2006-05-24  6:06         ` GF Thomas
2006-05-22 16:38     ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-23  8:25     ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2006-05-23 11:40       ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-23 13:14         ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-23 17:07           ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-23 22:20             ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-23 22:49               ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-23 23:21                 ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-24  0:49                   ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-24  5:07                     ` GF Thomas
2006-05-24 12:56               ` J.F. Cornwall
2006-05-24 13:39                 ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-24 16:49                   ` J.F. Cornwall
2006-05-24 18:08                     ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-24  5:26         ` robin
2006-05-27  5:18         ` Aldebaran
2006-05-23 17:09       ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-23 17:53         ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-05-23 18:21         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-23 18:34           ` Brooks Moses
2006-05-24  7:15             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-23 20:33           ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-24  7:52         ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2006-05-24 14:50         ` robin
2006-05-24 15:19           ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-24 15:43             ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-24 17:12               ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-24 17:32                 ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-24 17:54                 ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-24 18:10                   ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-24 18:39                     ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-24 19:36                       ` Gautier
2006-05-24 19:37                       ` Gautier
2006-05-24 19:56                         ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-30 19:39                           ` Craig Powers
2006-05-26  2:58                         ` robin
2006-05-24 18:34                   ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-24 18:40                     ` Ed Falis
2006-05-25 22:31                       ` Brooks Moses
2006-05-24 18:43                     ` Ed Falis
2006-05-24 18:59                       ` J.F. Cornwall
2006-05-24 19:10                       ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-25  3:40                       ` robin
2006-05-25 15:19                         ` Martin Krischik
2006-05-27 14:29                           ` robin
2006-05-27 13:22                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-05-29 11:46                             ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-29 17:37                             ` Martin Krischik
2006-05-24 21:04                   ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-31  4:26                     ` robert.corbett
2006-05-25  3:40                   ` robin
2006-05-24 16:03             ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-24 19:08               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-25  3:40             ` robin
2006-05-25  5:04               ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-25  6:04                 ` Richard Maine
2006-05-25 10:42                   ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
2006-05-25 15:09                     ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-25 19:39                       ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
2006-05-25 12:09                   ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-05-25 12:42                     ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-25 12:45                     ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-25 16:23                       ` Checking for Undefined [was Re: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications] Bob Lidral
2006-05-25 17:48                         ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-25 17:57                         ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-25 20:20                           ` Bob Lidral
2006-05-27 14:29                             ` Checking for Undefined robin
2006-05-25 20:35                           ` Checking for Undefined [was Re: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications] glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-25 22:02                           ` Checking for Undefined Simon Wright
2006-05-27 14:29                           ` robin
2006-05-27 15:10                             ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-26  2:58                       ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications robin
2006-07-09 20:52                       ` adaworks
2006-07-09 21:33                         ` Brooks Moses
2006-07-10  3:08                           ` jimmaureenrogers
2006-07-10 11:23                           ` Björn Persson
2006-07-10 17:08                             ` Brooks Moses
2006-07-09 21:36                         ` James Giles
2006-07-09 22:29                           ` Martin Dowie
2006-07-09 23:07                             ` James Giles
2006-07-09 23:44                               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-11  1:29                               ` robin
2006-07-09 23:19                           ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-11  1:29                             ` robin
2006-07-11  5:56                               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-12  0:37                                 ` robin
2006-07-12  1:15                                   ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-14  2:47                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2006-07-14  2:56                                       ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-18  1:48                                     ` robin
2006-07-18 18:35                                       ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-19 14:35                                         ` BINARY INTEGER robin
2006-07-10  7:38                           ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-07-10 16:41                             ` adaworks
2006-07-10 18:12                               ` John W. Kennedy
2006-07-11  1:29                                 ` robin
2006-07-11  2:49                                   ` John W. Kennedy
2006-07-12  0:37                                     ` robin
2006-07-11  1:29                             ` robin
2006-07-11  6:46                               ` adaworks
2006-07-11  7:30                                 ` James Giles
2006-07-11 20:46                                   ` Simon Wright
2006-07-11 11:44                                 ` Jeffrey Creem
2006-07-11 14:51                                   ` adaworks
2006-07-12  1:29                                     ` Jeffrey Creem
2006-07-11 13:53                                 ` Tom Linden
2006-07-11 15:02                                   ` adaworks
2006-07-11 15:35                                     ` Tom Linden
2006-07-11 16:54                                       ` Alex R. Mosteo
2006-07-11 17:43                                       ` adaworks
2006-07-11 18:15                                         ` Ed Falis
2006-07-11 14:46                                 ` John W. Kennedy
2006-07-11 14:45                                   ` Tom Linden
2006-07-11 17:06                                     ` John W. Kennedy
2006-07-11 15:16                                   ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-11 15:55                                     ` Richard E Maine
2006-07-11 16:21                                       ` Ed Falis
2006-07-11 16:28                                         ` Richard E Maine
2006-07-12  3:33                                       ` James Dennett
2006-07-11 17:08                                   ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2006-07-11 22:44                                     ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-12  9:50                                       ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2006-07-14  7:00                                         ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-12  3:35                                     ` James Dennett
2006-07-12  0:37                                   ` robin
2006-07-10  9:57                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-07-11 15:14                         ` robin
2006-07-11 17:21                           ` adaworks
2006-07-11 19:50                             ` John W. Kennedy
2006-11-20  9:39                         ` robin
2006-11-21  9:02                           ` Finalization Philippe Tarroux
2006-11-21  9:22                             ` Finalization Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-11-21 10:32                               ` Finalization Philippe Tarroux
2006-11-21 11:09                                 ` Finalization Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-11-21 17:29                                   ` Finalization Adam Beneschan
2006-11-21 18:39                                     ` Finalization Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-11-21 17:22                                 ` Finalization Adam Beneschan
2006-11-21 11:26                             ` Finalization Georg Bauhaus
2006-05-25 16:25                     ` Bounds Check Overhead [was: Re: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications] Bob Lidral
2006-05-25 22:08                       ` Bounds Check Overhead Simon Wright
2006-05-25 22:27                         ` Brooks Moses
2006-05-25 22:43                           ` Richard E Maine
2006-05-26 10:16                           ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-05-26 10:59                             ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-26 14:44                               ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-26 14:52                                 ` Rich Townsend
2006-05-26 16:44                                   ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-05-26 17:49                                     ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-27  9:06                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-27 14:44                                         ` Richard Maine
2006-05-29 12:02                                         ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-26 20:31                                     ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-27 14:29                                     ` robin
2006-05-26 14:59                                 ` gary.l.scott
2006-05-26 15:10                                   ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-26 18:41                                     ` gary.l.scott
2006-05-26 18:56                                       ` Dan Nagle
2006-05-26 19:16                                         ` Richard Maine
2006-05-27 14:29                               ` robin
2006-05-26 16:18                             ` Richard Maine
2006-05-26 17:30                               ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-26 18:24                                 ` Richard Maine
2006-05-26 19:23                                   ` Paul Van Delst
2006-05-26 19:25                                   ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-26 19:46                                     ` Richard Maine
2006-05-30 19:13                                       ` Robert A Duff
2006-06-04 23:48                                         ` Richard Maine
2006-05-26 18:26                                 ` Rich Townsend
2006-05-26 19:58                                   ` Simon Wright
2006-05-26 20:06                                     ` Rich Townsend
2006-05-26 20:16                                       ` Richard Edgar
2006-05-26 20:28                                       ` Richard Maine
2006-05-30 19:20                                         ` Robert A Duff
2006-06-05 13:50                                           ` Richard Edgar
2006-05-26 20:27                               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-26 20:41                                 ` Richard Maine
2006-05-27 14:29                         ` robin
2006-05-27 14:56                           ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-05-27 15:53                             ` jimmaureenrogers
2006-05-27 15:59                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-27 17:52                               ` Tom LINDEN
2006-05-28  6:28                                 ` Dave Weatherall
2006-05-26  2:58                     ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications robin
2006-05-29 12:21                     ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-29 13:47                       ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley [this message]
2006-05-29 14:17                         ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-29 14:52                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-29 15:08                             ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-29 17:03                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-30  7:11                                 ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-30  8:29                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-31 14:58                                     ` robin
2006-05-31 14:58                                 ` robin
2006-05-31 15:42                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-05-31 15:54                                     ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-31 14:58                             ` robin
2006-05-31 18:07                               ` Marc A. Criley
2006-05-29 15:47                           ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
     [not found]                   ` <pan.2006.05.25.12.11.52.919554@linuxchip.demon.co.uk.u <2006052514574816807-gsande@worldnetattnet>
2006-05-25 18:30                     ` Checking for Undefined [was Re: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications] Thomas Koenig
2006-05-25 18:34                       ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-26  2:58                   ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications robin
     [not found]                   ` <pan.2006.05.25.12.11.52.919554@linuxchip.demon.co.uk.u <m2r72h69vz.fsf@grendel.local>
2006-05-26  7:54                     ` Checking for Undefined Dirk Craeynest
2006-05-26 15:04                       ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-27 14:29                         ` robin
2006-05-27 15:08                           ` Gordon Sande
2006-05-28  0:56                             ` robin
2006-05-28  1:04                               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-28 13:46                               ` Gordon Sande
     [not found]                   ` <pan.2006.05.25.12.11.52.919554@linuxchip.demon.co.uk.u <e574mu$rrj$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>
2006-05-26 18:53                     ` Bounds Check Overhead Thomas Koenig
2006-05-26 19:07                       ` Richard Maine
     [not found]                   ` <pan.2006.05.25.12.11.52.919554@linuxchip <20060712.7A4E6E0.D028@mojaveg.lsan.sisna.com>
     [not found]                     ` <20060712.7A4E6E0.D028@mojaveg.lsan.sisna.com>
2006-07-14  6:08                       ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications Bob Lidral
2006-07-14  6:17                         ` Richard Maine
2006-07-17 12:44                           ` ONES COMPLEMENT (was: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications) robin
     [not found]                   ` <20060712.7A4E6E0.D028@mojaveg.lsan.sisna <20060714.7A4E988.A30D@mojaveg.lsan.sisna.com>
     [not found]                     ` <20060714.7A4E988.A30D@mojaveg.lsan.sisna.com>
2006-07-16  9:07                       ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-18  1:48                         ` ONES COMPLEMENT (was: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications) robin
2006-07-18 18:41                           ` ONES COMPLEMENT glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-19 13:41                             ` robin
2006-07-22  0:09                             ` Richard Steiner
     [not found]                   ` <20060712.7A4E6E0.D028@mojaveg.lsan.sisna <20060717.7A4ADD0.10B1A@mojaveg.lsan.sisna.com>
2006-07-18 13:05                     ` ONES COMPLEMENT (was: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications) Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
2006-07-19 11:18                       ` ONES COMPLEMENT Peter Flass
2006-07-19 17:14                         ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-19 23:43                           ` robin
2006-07-19 13:41                       ` robin
2006-07-19 17:11                       ` ONES COMPLEMENT (was: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications) Everett M. Greene
2006-07-19 19:40                         ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
2006-07-20 16:46                           ` Everett M. Greene
2006-07-20 21:47                             ` Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
2006-07-21 17:23                               ` ONES COMPLEMENT glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-21 18:04                                 ` John W. Kennedy
2006-07-23  0:26                                   ` robin
2006-07-23  0:26                                 ` robin
2006-07-21 20:05                               ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-21 21:00                                 ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-07-22  6:19                                   ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-22 15:12                               ` ONES COMPLEMENT (was: Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications) Everett M. Greene
2006-07-23  0:26                               ` ONES COMPLEMENT robin
     [not found]                     ` <20060717.7A4ADD0.10B1A@mojaveg.lsan.sisna.com>
2006-07-19  6:54                       ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-07-19 12:47                         ` Tom Linden
2006-07-19 14:35                         ` robin
2006-05-25 11:02               ` Ada vs Fortran for scientific applications Dan Nagle
2006-05-25 11:23                 ` Gareth Owen
2006-05-26  2:58                   ` robin
2006-05-26  7:13                     ` Gareth Owen
2006-05-26 14:53                     ` Dick Hendrickson
2006-05-26 20:18                       ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-26 21:50                         ` Björn Persson
2006-05-25 14:33                 ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-26  2:58                 ` robin
2006-05-26 20:03                 ` JA
2006-05-25 11:32             ` Martin Krischik
2006-05-24  6:46       ` Jan Vorbrüggen
2006-05-24  5:26   ` robin
2006-05-23  8:34 ` gautier_niouzes
2006-05-23 13:33 ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-23 14:00   ` Michael Metcalf
2006-05-23 15:04   ` beliavsky
2006-05-23 18:09     ` glen herrmannsfeldt
2006-05-23 22:38     ` Jeffrey Creem
2006-05-23 19:29   ` Gautier
2006-05-23 19:34     ` Rich Townsend
2006-05-23 17:57 ` Aldebaran
2006-05-23 22:14   ` Dr Ivan D. Reid
2006-05-23 23:01 ` John
2006-05-27  5:01 ` Nasser Abbasi
2006-05-27  7:36   ` Pascal Obry
2006-05-27 11:18   ` Björn Persson
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