Air traffic control system in Java

Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

<http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-control-system-is-not-safe-say-uk-controllers-40091970/>

And the arguments about it are flying through the air
as fast as the planes :-)

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/3/2011 12:46 PM, Hyman Rosen wrote:
> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-control-system-is-not-safe-say-uk-controllers-40091970/>
>
> And the arguments about it are flying through the air
> as fast as the planes :-)

Wonderfull.

I guess the pilots now have to learn how to stop those big
planes right in mid air and wait untill the Java garbage collector
has completed its memory cleaning algorithm cycle.

--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[KK6GM]

On Mar 3, 12:46 pm, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-c...>
>
> And the arguments about it are flying through the air
> as fast as the planes :-)

From a slashdot comment:

"... java has become a synonym for 'Oh,OH, danger! Amateurs at work.'"

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 4:01 PM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
> I guess the pilots now have to learn how to stop those big
> planes right in mid air and wait untill the Java garbage collector
> has completed its memory cleaning algorithm cycle.

Ada supports garbage collection too.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> On 3/3/2011 4:01 PM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>> I guess the pilots now have to learn how to stop those big
>> planes right in mid air and wait untill the Java garbage collector
>> has completed its memory cleaning algorithm cycle.
>
> Ada supports garbage collection too.

It "permits" it. But we[1] wouldn't use it, even if there were a compiler
actually supporting it. ;)


Vinzent.

[1] "We" as in "responsible Ada programmers".

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-control-system-is-not-safe-say-uk-controllers-40091970/>
>
> And the arguments about it are flying through the air
> as fast as the planes :-)

WTF!? Isn't air traffic control supposed to be a real-time task? And they do
it in _Java_?


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
    --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 4:13 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-control-system-is-not-safe-say-uk-controllers-40091970/>
>>
>> And the arguments about it are flying through the air
>> as fast as the planes :-)
>
> WTF!? Isn't air traffic control supposed to be a real-time task? And they do
> it in _Java_?

Well, here's a paper by IBM that's ten years old,
<http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers/Bacon01Java.pdf>,
     Java without the Coffee Breaks:
     A Nonintrusive Multiprocessor Garbage Collector

     In this paper we present a new multiprocessor garbage collector
     that achieves maximum measured pause times of 2.6 milliseconds
     over a set of eleven benchmark programs that perform significant
     amounts of memory allocation.

Mocking programming languages based on feelings rather than research
doesn't lead to happy results. Like not using Ada because it was
designed by a committee for the military and it's slow because of all
the checking it does.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> On 3/3/2011 4:13 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>>
>>> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-control-system-is-not-safe-say-uk-controllers-40091970/>
>>>
>>> And the arguments about it are flying through the air
>>> as fast as the planes :-)
>>
>> WTF!? Isn't air traffic control supposed to be a real-time task? And they do
>> it in _Java_?
>
> Well, here's a paper by IBM that's ten years old,
> <http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers/Bacon01Java.pdf>,
>      Java without the Coffee Breaks:
>      A Nonintrusive Multiprocessor Garbage Collector
>
>      In this paper we present a new multiprocessor garbage collector
>      that achieves maximum measured pause times of 2.6 milliseconds
>      over a set of eleven benchmark programs that perform significant
>      amounts of memory allocation.

And that's the GC that is used in the ATC system? I would have expected to see
at least a Real Time Java there with all the RawMemory and NoHeapRealtimeThread
fuzz. ;)


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 4:34 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> And that's the GC that is used in the ATC system? I would have expected to see
> at least a Real Time Java there with all the RawMemory and NoHeapRealtimeThread
> fuzz. ;)

I have no idea. But you expressed skepticism about real-time
and Java, and I assumed that was related to the collector.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> On 3/3/2011 4:34 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> And that's the GC that is used in the ATC system? I would have expected to see
>> at least a Real Time Java there with all the RawMemory and NoHeapRealtimeThread
>> fuzz. ;)
>
> I have no idea. But you expressed skepticism about real-time
> and Java, and I assumed that was related to the collector.

I haven't seen any usable Real Time Java yet. That's where my
scepticism comes from.

Did you know that not even the scheduling is defined by the language,
although Java threads sure can have a priority assigned? Yet, there's
no guarantee that the highest priority task will even run.

So, yes I still consider Real Time Java an oxymoron.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 4:44 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> Did you know that not even the scheduling is defined by the language,
> although Java threads sure can have a priority assigned? Yet, there's
> no guarantee that the highest priority task will even run.

This sounded false to me, so I looked:
<http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-rtj1/index.html>

     The Real-time Specification for Java

     With the RTSJ, true priorities and a fixed-priority preemptive
     scheduler with priority-inheritance support is required for RT
     threads. This scheduling approach ensures that the highest-
     priority active thread will always be executing and it continues
     to execute until it voluntarily releases the CPU or is preempted
     by a higher-priority thread. Priority inheritance ensures that
     priority inversion is avoided when a higher-priority thread needs
     a resource held by a lower-priority thread.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> On 3/3/2011 4:44 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> Did you know that not even the scheduling is defined by the language,
>> although Java threads sure can have a priority assigned? Yet, there's
>> no guarantee that the highest priority task will even run.
>
> This sounded false to me, so I looked:
> <http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-rtj1/index.html>
>
>      The Real-time Specification for Java

Sorry, if I caused confusion, I was referring to "standard" Java, not
the RTSJ here. The people who wrote the RTSJ weren't stupid. :)


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 3/3/11 10:44 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>> On 3/3/2011 4:34 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>>> And that's the GC that is used in the ATC system? I would have expected to see
>>> at least a Real Time Java there with all the RawMemory and NoHeapRealtimeThread
>>> fuzz. ;)
>>
>> I have no idea. But you expressed skepticism about real-time
>> and Java, and I assumed that was related to the collector.
>
> I haven't seen any usable Real Time Java yet. That's where my
> scepticism comes from.

Found this:

http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc-raven/

But I think using Java in this case means to use @AnnoTations
extensively. They will extend Java to be a language better suited.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 5:36 PM, Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Found this:
> http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc-raven/
> But I think using Java in this case means to use @AnnoTations
> extensively. They will extend Java to be a language better suited.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. But just in case,
remember ANNA: <http://books.google.com/books?id=tybCNcTXmUkC>

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Rick]

On Mar 4, 4:46 am, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-c...>

Something I pick from this article underpins that attitude of many
folk towards Ada.  Simply, Ada does not (as a standard language)
provide for construction of a Graphical User Interface.  Students (and
commercial software houses), in my experience, insist that it is no
use if you cannot draw pretty pictures with it.

I realize that this is a major ask, but perhaps a focus of the next
revision of Ada should be to remedy this situation.  Then an Air
Traffic Control System operated by an interactive GUI with the speed,
solidity and security that Ada brings would be a real possibility.
Think of the possibilities for industrial programming!

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Georg Bauhaus wrote:

> On 3/3/11 10:44 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>>
>> I haven't seen any usable Real Time Java yet. That's where my
>> scepticism comes from.
>
> Found this:
>
> http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc-raven/

Hmm. Indeed, that seems to be usable according to the ads. I thought
they dropped it due to lack of customer demand (that's what I heard
 from a Aonix representative (while they still were Aonix) a while ago).

> But I think using Java in this case means to use @AnnoTations
> extensively. They will extend Java to be a language better suited.

Well, in some sense, the RTSJ is another language already.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 5:50 PM, Rick wrote:
> Simply, Ada does not (as a standard language)
> provide for construction of a Graphical User Interface.  Students (and
> commercial software houses), in my experience, insist that it is no
> use if you cannot draw pretty pictures with it.

Again, this nonsense. This is far worse than when I, as the
stereotypical stupid C++ advocate, say "subtypes, big deal,
I can code that up as a class".

Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
communicate and interact with their users. If it is painful to
construct a GUI in some programming system then programmers are
correct to reject that system, because building programs with
GUIs is their job, and why would they want to make their lives
difficult?

In fact, for systems like air traffic control, the graphical user
interface is one of the most vital parts of the system, because it
must communicate to its users an accurate and easy to grasp picture
of the state of the traffic.

Calling the ability to build user interfaces "drawing pretty pictures"
so desperately misses the point that it's tragic.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Robert A Duff]

"Vinzent Hoefler" <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776eeb@t-domaingrabbing.de>
writes:

> Sorry, if I caused confusion, I was referring to "standard" Java, not
> the RTSJ here. The people who wrote the RTSJ weren't stupid. :)

No, not stupid.  One of them works for AdaCore, by the way.

I haven't looked at real-time Java for several years, but when
I did, I was pretty skeptical.

- Bob

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 3/3/11 11:40 PM, Hyman Rosen wrote:
> On 3/3/2011 5:36 PM, Georg Bauhaus wrote:
>> Found this:
>> http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc-raven/
>> But I think using Java in this case means to use @AnnoTations
>> extensively. They will extend Java to be a language better suited.
>
> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. But just in case,
> remember ANNA: <http://books.google.com/books?id=tybCNcTXmUkC>

Yes.  (I hope that the aspect specifications of Ada 2012
will be better integrated with the language (and not require
any source transformation); certainly this should be the case
for Pre, Post, Invariant, and expression functions?)

Considering hard real-time support in a language definition,
can we not have a language for expressing the recurring
patterns that embedded systems programmers have been expressing
for years, but, apparently, using means outside the
language used?  Means like being careful, being smart,
being knowledgeable, being proud. Then there are tools that
flexibly mimic for C what is built into other languages.

Do we have to fool ourselves into thinking that just switching
languages is out of the question?  What makes us believe
that it is easier to integrate two of them, Java and
annotations---though not actually creating something
really integrated from the start?  (I guess that's because
---whichever is the technically flawed language---
we'd have to admit that we have made a mistake by choosing
the language and fear the uncertainty of the new or that we
will have to give up legacy libraries, or will have to prove certain
algorithms again.  And give up the language we have
chosen aloud.  OTOH, starting from scratch is considered
a healthy approach, too.  I find this contradictory
from a technical point of view. Is it economically rational,
balanced, impartial?)

There is knowledge and experience.  Why not condense them
into one formalism?  Mathematics has little trouble with
common formalism.  Any differences in mode of expression don't
change the subject matter.

Looking at special databases for long series of data like stock
exchange prices, real-time or past-time (kdb by Kx); a special
dialect of APL (k) serves to compute results from those data.
In a niche of customers who would use such a system it
seemed a good investment; the language is specially made for
the purpose.   And the thing is being developed as needed, IIUC.
(I understand that Sybase has something on offer, too.)

But in comparison, real-time systems in general do not really
fit a niche, do they?  Far too many systems, far to many
programmers for a niche.  And lots of semi-formal knowledge
regarding proper use of (mostly) C.  (Somewhat less of "semi"
if Ada is used, since Ada formalizes some of the semi-formal
knowledge (as was required originally).)

Why doesn't industry sit down for a moment and consider what
kinds of real-time algorithms they still want to be able to
write and then ask for that language?

Some days I am dreaming of market pressure exercised by every
single customer: we won't pay any compiler maker for two years.
Instead, we will spend 100% on thinking about what we want.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[KK6GM]

On Mar 3, 3:00 pm, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
> communicate and interact with their users.

That is one of the most amazing (and amazingly wrong) things I have
ever heard any programmer say.

> Calling the ability to build user interfaces "drawing pretty pictures"
> so desperately misses the point that it's tragic.

I agree it was needlessly pejorative.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[anon]

In <wcck4gfpyuw.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com>, Robert A Duff <bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> writes:
>"Vinzent Hoefler" <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776eeb@t-domaingrabbing.de>
>writes:
>
>> Sorry, if I caused confusion, I was referring to "standard" Java, not
>> the RTSJ here. The people who wrote the RTSJ weren't stupid. :)
>
>No, not stupid.  One of them works for AdaCore, by the way.
>
>I haven't looked at real-time Java for several years, but when
>I did, I was pretty skeptical.
>
>- Bob


Ada is for both code reliability and human life 

C/C++ is for money as long as they are protected from caring for human life

But Java is for fame and money where the hardware comes before human life 

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Ludovic Brenta]

Rick wrote on comp.lang.ada:
> On Mar 4, 4:46 am, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-c...>
>
> Something I pick from this article underpins that attitude of many
> folk towards Ada.  Simply, Ada does not (as a standard language)
> provide for construction of a Graphical User Interface.  Students (and
> commercial software houses), in my experience, insist that it is no
> use if you cannot draw pretty pictures with it.
>
> I realize that this is a major ask, but perhaps a focus of the next
> revision of Ada should be to remedy this situation.  Then an Air
> Traffic Control System operated by an interactive GUI with the speed,
> solidity and security that Ada brings would be a real possibility.
> Think of the possibilities for industrial programming!

Don't worry Rick, various air traffic control systems written in Ada,
with safety-critical GUIS, have been running 24x7 for the past 20
years or so, sometimes even longer than that.  There was no need for a
"standard" graphical framework, only for one that worked.  These apps
are so specialized anyway that a "standard" would probably have gotten
in the way of ergonomy.

The system I work on at Eurocontrol is not safety-critical but
definitely mission-critical and has had an X11 GUI since circa 1992.

Additionally I worked at Barco Avionics a few years ago and rest
assured that the safety-critical, hard real-time cockpit displays[1]
were quite graphical too, thank you very much.  And programmed 99% in
Ada and 1% assembly.

[1] http://www.barco.com/en/productcategory/18

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/3/2011 8:07 PM, KK6GM wrote:
> On Mar 3, 3:00 pm, Hyman Rosen<hyro...@mail.com>  wrote:
>>
>> Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
>> communicate and interact with their users.
>
> That is one of the most amazing (and amazingly wrong) things I have
> ever heard any programmer say.

Make sure you take this with you on your way out the door.
<http://www.pospaper.com/148gbp18.html>

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
> communicate and interact with their users.

Sure? Your microwave has a graphical user interface already? And do you
count the little ESP light in your car as "graphical interface" already?

An xterm is more graphical than that. ;)


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[KK6GM]

On Mar 4, 9:07 am, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> On 3/3/2011 8:07 PM, KK6GM wrote:
>
> > On Mar 3, 3:00 pm, Hyman Rosen<hyro...@mail.com>  wrote:
>
> >> Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
> >> communicate and interact with their users.
>
> > That is one of the most amazing (and amazingly wrong) things I have
> > ever heard any programmer say.
>
> Make sure you take this with you on your way out the door.
> <http://www.pospaper.com/148gbp18.html>

Here are two devices I chose pretty much at random.  They have one or
more processors running one or more computer programs.  They have
neither video nor printer output.  I could probably come up with a
million other examples.  Maybe ten million.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=STR&ttID=STR&Nav=

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboard/devices/6007

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/4/2011 12:14 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>> Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
>> communicate and interact with their users.
>
> Sure? Your microwave has a graphical user interface already?

Yes, a fairly poor one. It does not show what temperature
range its convection feature will accept. It automatically
switches to power level input after you have pressed enough
keys to be understood as a time. Microwave time input is
minutes+seconds while convection input is hours+minutes. It
does count the cooking time down nicely though.

> And do you count the little ESP light in your car as
 > "graphical interface" already?

Yes, again a quite poor one. For example,
<http://www.audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81683>.
People are generally baffled by the light. It goes on, it
goes off, it flashes, and in general it utterly fails to
communicate any information to the user beyond "something
might be wrong".

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:14:18 +0100, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:

> Hyman Rosen wrote:
> 
>> Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
>> communicate and interact with their users.
> 
> Sure? Your microwave has a graphical user interface already? And do you
> count the little ESP light in your car as "graphical interface" already?
> 
> An xterm is more graphical than that. ;)

In fact software becomes less and less graphical than it was before. The
reason for that is that the area where software is used grows engulfing
things like embedded, communication, control etc, where no user is directly
involved. This new software has no UI and most of it will never have any.

Even interactive software is expected to become less graphical when used in
new areas of expansion like mobile etc. E.g. the gas pedal of a car uses a
tactile feedback, rather than display.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/4/2011 12:24 PM, KK6GM wrote:
> Here are two devices I chose pretty much at random.  They have one or
> more processors running one or more computer programs.  They have
> neither video nor printer output.  I could probably come up with a
> million other examples.  Maybe ten million.

This one's company
> http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=STR&ttID=STR&Nav=
makes this
<http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OCSXL_Series&Nav=>.

This one
> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboard/devices/6007
comes with this
<http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14152/section/troubleshoot/crid/434/lt_product_id/6007/tabs/1,3,2,4,5/cl/us,en/kw/>.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[KK6GM]

On Mar 4, 9:36 am, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> On 3/4/2011 12:24 PM, KK6GM wrote:
>
> > Here are two devices I chose pretty much at random.  They have one or
> > more processors running one or more computer programs.  They have
> > neither video nor printer output.  I could probably come up with a
> > million other examples.  Maybe ten million.
>
> This one's company>http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=STR&ttID=STR&Nav=
>
> makes this
> <http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=OCSXL_Series&Nav=>.
>
> This one>http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboard/devices/6007
>
> comes with this
> <http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14152/sec...>.

You're simply moving the goalposts.  You said *all* computer
programs.  That would by definition include programs running in
billions of devices with 1 to 8k of program memory, and 1k or less of
data memory.  Do you really want to claim that *all* 8051 and AVR and
8-bit PIC programs include a GUI?

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/4/2011 1:00 PM, KK6GM wrote:
> You're simply moving the goalposts.  You said *all* computer
> programs.  That would by definition include programs running in
> billions of devices with 1 to 8k of program memory, and 1k or less of
> data memory.  Do you really want to claim that *all* 8051 and AVR and
> 8-bit PIC programs include a GUI?

Nope. ("Billions of devices" is silly, of course, since those
are not running billions of individually written programs.) I
was just being hyperbolic. I fully agree that college classes
in embedded device programming don't need to have their students
write programs with graphical user interfaces.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Shark8]

On Mar 4, 10:14 am, "Vinzent Hoefler"
<0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
> Hyman Rosen wrote:
> > Graphical user interfaces are how *all* computer programs now
> > communicate and interact with their users.
>
> Sure? Your microwave has a graphical user interface already? And do you
> count the little ESP light in your car as "graphical interface" already?

Nope. *MY* microwave has a, analog rotational switch [physical] and
physical slide-switch for temperature control and a start button; btw,
this layout is *FAR* more intuitive than virtually all of the digital
interfaces for microwaves. {I hesitate to say all digital microwave
interfaces; but certainly all of them I have used.}

>
> An xterm is more graphical than that. ;)
>
> Vinzent.
>
> --
> A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
> razors.
>    --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[KK6GM]

On Mar 4, 10:11 am, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> On 3/4/2011 1:00 PM, KK6GM wrote:
>
> > You're simply moving the goalposts.  You said *all* computer
> > programs.  That would by definition include programs running in
> > billions of devices with 1 to 8k of program memory, and 1k or less of
> > data memory.  Do you really want to claim that *all* 8051 and AVR and
> > 8-bit PIC programs include a GUI?
>
> Nope. ("Billions of devices" is silly, of course, since those
> are not running billions of individually written programs.)

Nor did I claim otherwise.  But even if they were all running just one
program, your claim is falsified.

> I was just being hyperbolic. I fully agree that college classes
> in embedded device programming don't need to have their students
> write programs with graphical user interfaces.

So you agree with Dr. Dewar about the problems re Java and modern CS
programs.

BTW, I don't think all the 8-bit manufacturers (not to mention e.g.
the Cortex M0 and M3 manufacturers) are selling only to college
classrooms.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/4/2011 1:18 PM, KK6GM wrote:
>> I was just being hyperbolic. I fully agree that college classes
>> in embedded device programming don't need to have their students
>> write programs with graphical user interfaces.
>
> So you agree with Dr. Dewar about the problems re Java and modern CS
> programs.

No, not at all. What fraction of programmers will spend their
careers working on embedded systems?

> BTW, I don't think all the 8-bit manufacturers (not to mention e.g.
> the Cortex M0 and M3 manufacturers) are selling only to college
> classrooms.

Huh?

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> No, not at all. What fraction of programmers will spend their
> careers working on embedded systems?

A large fraction. Embedded systems are virtually everywhere and
someone has to program them.

And even if that were not the case, most programmers are bound to
implement logic, GUI is only a small part of the programming job and
- if done correctly - in the hands of a designer, not in the hands
of the programmer anyway.

So I seriously doubt, that GUI programming is the majority of
programming at all. It's only the most visible and if you design
a smart interface it can even be done in a different language. :)

And in one of my previous occupations the GUI was done in Python,
which was connected to an Object-Pascal backend with a remote call
interface, and the newly developed hard real-time embedded device which
replaced the old one was done in Ada.

So, only one third of that whole system had a (G)UI at all, not even
counting the fact that the embedded device was needed at least twice
there.

BTW, if sending out HTML can be considered "user-interface", Ada is
well fit for the purpose with AWS. ;)


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:51:06 +0100, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:

> So I seriously doubt, that GUI programming is the majority of
> programming at all. It's only the most visible and if you design
> a smart interface it can even be done in a different language. :)

In 40's computers were overwhelmingly used for numeric computations. Now
this is probably less than 0.1% of all applications. GUI applications
reached their peak about 10 years ago and now are in *relative* decline.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/4/2011 10:51 AM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:

>
> And even if that were not the case, most programmers are bound to
> implement logic, GUI is only a small part of the programming job and
> - if done correctly - in the hands of a designer, not in the hands
> of the programmer anyway.

It all depends on the app, does it not?

I think a good GUI can break or make an application. No matter
how brilliant the algorithms are that behind the GUI.

So, here I have to agree with Hyman. GUI these days is
a very important part of many software projects. Ofcourse not
all.

--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

>GUI applications
> reached their peak about 10 years ago and now are in *relative* decline.
>

I am curious why you say? Given that HTML5, the next generation
of HTML is all about having a build-in GUI as part of the standard,
and ability to play movies and all that GUI stuff, all using
just HTML and Javascript.

It seems to me that GUI is becoming more important (see that
Ipad, Iphone, etc...) everything you see is GUI.

No shell scripts any more :)

--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> On 3/4/2011 10:51 AM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>
>> And even if that were not the case, most programmers are bound to
>> implement logic, GUI is only a small part of the programming job and
>> - if done correctly - in the hands of a designer, not in the hands
>> of the programmer anyway.
>
> It all depends on the app, does it not?

Sure. But what's a GUI without logic behind it? A prototype at best.

> So, here I have to agree with Hyman. GUI these days is
> a very important part of many software projects. Ofcourse not
> all.

Sure, they may be *important* in certain areas, but that still doesn't
make it a majority. Even in smartphones (where "everything" is GUI), the
GUI is probably only a small part of the whole software running.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 12:23:58 -0800, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> On 3/4/2011 12:18 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> 
>> GUI applications
>> reached their peak about 10 years ago and now are in *relative* decline.
> 
> I am curious why you say?

Because it is so.

> Given that HTML5, the next generation
> of HTML is all about having a build-in GUI as part of the standard,
> and ability to play movies and all that GUI stuff, all using
> just HTML and Javascript.

Shudder...

> It seems to me that GUI is becoming more important (see that
> Ipad, Iphone, etc...) everything you see is GUI.

GUI becoming less important because of the applications running without
human intervention. These are new areas where computing is coming to. Do
you have a car? Guess how many programmed controllers a modern car has? Do
you know how many functions (applications) are they running simultaneously?
How many of them have a GUIs? And this is a relatively established area of
computing. The newer ones are coming, embedded, distributed, massively
parallel. Where you are going to get millions and millions of operators for
these countless applications? Forget GUI it will be locked in a niche as
numeric computations before.

The percentage of interactive visual applications will necessarily fall.
This value could be estimated from above [very optimistically] as:

   P / (N * r)

P = the human population (approximately constant, maybe, falling)
N = number of CPUs in use (grows exponentially, so far)
r = time sharing factor, number of independent tasks (applications) per CPU
(greater than 1, may drop, but insignificantly)

From the above follows that the percentage of GUI applications converges to
0!

This scenario is of course possible under the condition that the software
developing technology will mature to handle that computational power and
new application areas.

There is another scenario, that due to dropping quality of software, it
will not be possible to design and run necessary applications without human
intervention (and thus without your beloved GUIs). That will in turn cause
stagnation of the number of processors. At this point the cost of software
[the full cost] will start to grow exponentially: much demand, less supply.
Which would mean a collapse of the industry, or a technological
breakthrough (ditching C, Java, PHP and Co.).

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/4/2011 1:31 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

>Forget GUI it will be locked in a niche as  numeric computations before.

Thank you for your reply. Could you may be explain what you mean
by the locked part above as it relates to "numeric computations" bit?

I am working now at school on numerical pde's, and was wondering
what do you mean by being "locked" there? in what sense?

on the GUI part, I think making good easy to use GUI is a skill
few has, and it is very important and will always be, more so
in the future, because more and more people will want to use computers,
and making the interfaces easier, will be even more important
with time. That is why ipad and its relatives are success.

Ada having no build-in GUI in it, like with Java for example,
is hurting it, not helping it.

I think if Ada, somehow, had a building GUI making ability in it,
it would have been much more popular. Imagine if when Java
was first relased, if it had come with no GUI in it, it would have
gone no where.

--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 13:44:27 -0800, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> On 3/4/2011 1:31 PM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> 
>>Forget GUI it will be locked in a niche as  numeric computations before.
> 
> Thank you for your reply. Could you may be explain what you mean
> by the locked part above as it relates to "numeric computations" bit?

Numeric computation once were 100% of all programs. Computers are still
called after them, invented to calculate tables for artillery projectiles.
Who might imagine then that number crunching it now is way under 1%? This
is called "niche."

> on the GUI part, I think making good easy to use GUI is a skill
> few has, and it is very important and will always be, more so
> in the future, because more and more people will want to use computers,
> and making the interfaces easier, will be even more important
> with time. That is why ipad and its relatives are success.

I already explained why GUI will become 0.1% and less.

> I think if Ada, somehow, had a building GUI making ability in it,
> it would have been much more popular.

It is solely money properly invested into a hype campaign, which make a
language popular. Technical merits play no any role. We would live in a
different world if that were otherwise.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Rick]

On Mar 4, 7:00 am, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> Calling the ability to build user interfaces "drawing pretty pictures"
> so desperately misses the point that it's tragic.

Methinks you miss the point, Hyman.  The comment was not made in
refence to the august minds who populate this usergroup.  The comment
referred to the attitudes of students who cannot yet understand the
concept of an Air Traffic Control System.

Most of those students, in Australia anyway, will rarely have the
opportunity to work with anything other than Windows.  This makes
working in Ada with graphics difficult.  There is a range of useful
graphics add ins for PC - GtkAda, and John English's JEWL spring to
mind.  These are great, but the package X_WINDOWS (http://
www.aprobe.com/user_guide/legacy/legacy_101.html) but that has a
special requirement:

"X Window programs can only run if the RISC System/6000 AIXwindows
Environment/6000 licensed program (5601-257) is installed."

So the main point of my posting stands - the core language Ada does
not support graphics.  I am only suggesting that it would be great if
it did.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Randy Brukardt]

"Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> wrote in message 
news:ikrmfp$bsq$1@speranza.aioe.org...
...
> on the GUI part, I think making good easy to use GUI is a skill
> few has, and it is very important and will always be, more so
> in the future, because more and more people will want to use computers,
> and making the interfaces easier, will be even more important
> with time. That is why ipad and its relatives are success.
>
> Ada having no build-in GUI in it, like with Java for example,
> is hurting it, not helping it.

If Ada had had a built-in GUI, it surely wouldn't have been designed for 
IPads and the like. Touch interfaces are quite different than Windows/Mac 
(Xerox really) interfaces. Are you really sure that this would be a help?

Java is on their third or fourth GUI design. Their approach is to just throw 
them away.

That of course is available in Ada; if anything, the problem is that there 
are too many GUIs (GTKAda, GWindows, Claw, and on and on...) which prevents 
any of them from being all that standard.

And the work to define a standard GUI to the level required for the Ada 
standard would be immense, especially in order to prevent tying it to any 
underlying target. (We'd want it to work on both Windows and Linux for 
instance, without requiring either of them.) And I don't see anyone really 
stepping up to do that work.

                                               Randy.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Randy Brukardt wrote:

> And the work to define a standard GUI to the level required for the Ada
> standard would be immense, especially in order to prevent tying it to any
> underlying target. (We'd want it to work on both Windows and Linux for
> instance, without requiring either of them.) And I don't see anyone really
> stepping up to do that work.

The only languages I know with a built-in GUI (Oberon and Smalltalk) can be
called "failed" in that respect (there are probably more, but I can't know
them all).

Considering what I regularly read in the appropriate newsgroups, even a big
library like the VCL of Delphi is not nearly enough to satisfy its users,
there are a lot of add-ons, third party tools and hacks to get what they
want (and Delphi is even just Windows-only, so we're not even talking problems
of cross-platform GUI).

So if someone expects such a beast can be standardized at all, I'd call him
overly optimistic at least.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

> Yes, again a quite poor one. For example,
> <http://www.audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81683>.
> People are generally baffled by the light. It goes on, it
> goes off, it flashes, and in general it utterly fails to
> communicate any information to the user beyond "something
> might be wrong".

Your notion of "graphical" user interface obviously doesn't
fit mine.

But while talking about cars: A modern car has about 100 MCUs
running some code somewhere. Considering the typical car's
cockpit I seriously doubt that the majority of them has a
user-interface, much less a graphical one.

Unless you count reading out the fault memory as "user interface".
But that sure isn't "graphical", neither.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
    --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Robert A Duff wrote:

> "Vinzent Hoefler" <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776eeb@t-domaingrabbing.de>
> writes:
>
>> Sorry, if I caused confusion, I was referring to "standard" Java, not
>> the RTSJ here. The people who wrote the RTSJ weren't stupid. :)
>
> No, not stupid.  One of them works for AdaCore, by the way.

Oh, I know. I even remember Ben from his SIGAda presentations.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Shark8]

On Mar 4, 10:15 pm, "Vinzent Hoefler"
<0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
> Randy Brukardt wrote:
> > And the work to define a standard GUI to the level required for the Ada
> > standard would be immense, especially in order to prevent tying it to any
> > underlying target. (We'd want it to work on both Windows and Linux for
> > instance, without requiring either of them.) And I don't see anyone really
> > stepping up to do that work.
>
> The only languages I know with a built-in GUI (Oberon and Smalltalk) can be
> called "failed" in that respect (there are probably more, but I can't know
> them all).

Interesting you should mention Oberon; I just installed it into a VM
to play with.
{VirtualPC is free now, so if you're using Windows there is little
disincentive
to throwing odd/interesting OSes into a VM.}

> Considering what I regularly read in the appropriate newsgroups, even a big
> library like the VCL of Delphi is not nearly enough to satisfy its users,
> there are a lot of add-ons, third party tools and hacks to get what they
> want (and Delphi is even just Windows-only, so we're not even talking problems
> of cross-platform GUI).

Delphi's VCL is actually one of the best GUI-builders I've seen...
there was
also the Kylix port of the VCL to the Linux environs which fizzled
out, but
iy *WAS* there.

Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
Windows
[graphics] API it seems to me that Ada *could* be used similarly and
in an
even better manner: an object-oriented hierarchy-among-specifications
which
have their bodies chosen as per the platform being developed.

> So if someone expects such a beast can be standardized at all, I'd call him
> overly optimistic at least.

OpenGL and PotScript/PDF are standard and [true] cross-platform, no?
Couldn't a standard GUI therefore be built upon them?
{Granted some people won't like the idea of using/requiring OpenGL/
Postscript
as a base for it.}

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Shark8 wrote:

> On Mar 4, 10:15 pm, "Vinzent Hoefler"
> <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
>
> Interesting you should mention Oberon; I just installed it into a VM
> to play with.
> {VirtualPC is free now, so if you're using Windows there is little
> disincentive
> to throwing odd/interesting OSes into a VM.}

I'm happy user of VirtualBox sind a couple of major versions. ;)

>> Considering what I regularly read in the appropriate newsgroups, even a big
>> library like the VCL of Delphi is not nearly enough to satisfy its users,
>> there are a lot of add-ons, third party tools and hacks to get what they
>> want (and Delphi is even just Windows-only, so we're not even talking problems
>> of cross-platform GUI).
>
> Delphi's VCL is actually one of the best GUI-builders I've seen...
> there was
> also the Kylix port of the VCL to the Linux environs which fizzled
> out, but
> iy *WAS* there.

Well, FreePascal has Lazarus, that's probably more cross-platform. :)
Yet, it doesn't drive a lot of users to use it (at least there complaining
about the same as the Ada community), so it doesn't seem to be a major
gain.

> Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
> Windows [graphics] API

And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
document).

> it seems to me that Ada *could* be used similarly and
> in an
> even better manner: an object-oriented hierarchy-among-specifications
> which
> have their bodies chosen as per the platform being developed.

Yes, it is surely *possible*. But it also means that you probably have to
trade look-and-feel against the portability. And that means, users of
your Ada-GUI will complain about the differences, will not use it or
"patch" it according to their specific needs.

IMO, there's no point in standardizing such a beast, if you can't get it
right.

After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.

(Honestly, I don't know why someone would want to use Java for that,
Java doesn't even have real callbacks, but well ...)

>> So if someone expects such a beast can be standardized at all, I'd call him
>> overly optimistic at least.
>
> OpenGL and PotScript/PDF are standard and [true] cross-platform, no?
> Couldn't a standard GUI therefore be built upon them?

I seriously doubt that there are any OpenGL implementation or
Postscript-interpreters for systems like VxWorks or Integrity. ;)

Wasn't there a standard GUI description language (based on XML?) a couple
of years ago? What happened to it?

And as mentioned above. To put something like that into a language standard,
you have to keep minimalistic (remember that the vendors need to implement
it and cost of implementation is also an issue in terms of standardization).
But being minimalistic also means, that nobody will use it due to lack of
(necessary) features.

IME, if a minimalistic GUI is needed, embed a webserver into your application
and let it start up the browser. This served me well so far. Virtually everybody
knows how to use a browser, and in the days of Web 2.0 such an approach is
probably even "en vogue".


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/4/2011 11:15 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:

>
> After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
> ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.
>

Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

I looked to find an Ada application, that I can download and install,
which uses GtkAda, but could not find one. (one with menus,
buttons and such).  Only handful of tiny ones:

http://libre.adacore.com/libre/tools/gtkada/

Half of the above are broken, very old, or do not work, and
just a toy ones.

So, something is wrong here in this picture. In other systems,
I can go to Google and search and find tens of thousands of
GUI apps written by other languages.

So, why isn't any one using Ada to write GUI based applications
then if the GUI is there? May be because most Ada programmers are
more interested in system, embedded applications?

When I finish this course I am taking now in 2 weeks, I will have little
more time, and will learn GTKAda to see. The problem, I still need to
do plotting, and that requires a new library, like plplot. I wish
I can find an example of someone who have used Ada and GtkAda and
plplot and integrated all in one visualization scientific app. I guess
I have to try myself one day to see if it work, may be I will
be the first who will use Ada with GTK and Plplot to make a complete
scientific Ada GUI application, and I will become very famous :)


>
> And as mentioned above. To put something like that into a language standard,
> you have to keep minimalistic (remember that the vendors need to implement
> it and cost of implementation is also an issue in terms of standardization).
> But being minimalistic also means, that nobody will use it due to lack of
> (necessary) features.
>
> IME, if a minimalistic GUI is needed, embed a webserver into your application
> and let it start up the browser. This served me well so far. Virtually everybody
> knows how to use a browser, and in the days of Web 2.0 such an approach is
> probably even "en vogue".
>
>
> Vinzent.
>

--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> On 3/4/2011 11:15 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>
>> After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
>> ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

Right. And who thinks that may change if something like that gets into
the language standard? I don't.

> So, something is wrong here in this picture. In other systems,
> I can go to Google and search and find tens of thousands of
> GUI apps written by other languages.

Sorry to say that, but with Ada you're really lucky if you find "tens of
thousands" of apps at all, GUI or not.
Well, probably there even /are/ tens of thousands of apps in Ada, we
just don't put our stuff on Sourceforge, and so don't others. ;)

> plplot and integrated all in one visualization scientific app. I guess
> I have to try myself one day to see if it work, may be I will
> be the first who will use Ada with GTK and Plplot to make a complete
> scientific Ada GUI application, and I will become very famous :)

:) Good luck. (And that I mean seriously.)


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 08:15:17 +0100, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:

> Shark8 wrote:
> 
>> Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
>> Windows [graphics] API
> 
> And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
> offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
> document).

Very true, we are such a user. VCL is a constant headache to use [to us].

(The problems begin when the customer sends you exact requirements on the
UI's look and feel.)

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Shark8]

On Mar 5, 12:15 am, "Vinzent Hoefler"
<0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
> Shark8 wrote:
> > On Mar 4, 10:15 pm, "Vinzent Hoefler"
> > <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
>
> > Interesting you should mention Oberon; I just installed it into a VM
> > to play with.
> > {VirtualPC is free now, so if you're using Windows there is little
> > disincentive
> > to throwing odd/interesting OSes into a VM.}
>
> I'm happy user of VirtualBox sind a couple of major versions. ;)


And that diminishes my pointing out that VirtualPC is free how?
{You're just making my point that it is *easy*/*cheap* to have VMs.}

> >> Considering what I regularly read in the appropriate newsgroups, even a big
> >> library like the VCL of Delphi is not nearly enough to satisfy its users,
> >> there are a lot of add-ons, third party tools and hacks to get what they
> >> want (and Delphi is even just Windows-only, so we're not even talking problems
> >> of cross-platform GUI).
>
> > Delphi's VCL is actually one of the best GUI-builders I've seen...
> > there was
> > also the Kylix port of the VCL to the Linux environs which fizzled
> > out, but
> > iy *WAS* there.
>
> Well, FreePascal has Lazarus, that's probably more cross-platform. :)

Possibly, Though I wasn't able to get it to work last time I tried it.

> Yet, it doesn't drive a lot of users to use it (at least there complaining
> about the same as the Ada community), so it doesn't seem to be a major
> gain.
>
> > Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
> > Windows [graphics] API
>
> And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
> offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
> document).

I didn't say we should enshrine the VCL as a standard. I *DID* say
that
the VCL presents us with an intriguing possible opportunity to
implement
a GUI hierarchy.

>
> > it seems to me that Ada *could* be used similarly and
> > in an
> > even better manner: an object-oriented hierarchy-among-specifications
> > which
> > have their bodies chosen as per the platform being developed.
>
> Yes, it is surely *possible*. But it also means that you probably have to
> trade look-and-feel against the portability. And that means, users of
> your Ada-GUI will complain about the differences, will not use it or
> "patch" it according to their specific needs.

True enough. However, the lack-of-GUI may be more weighty than a
GUI-I-Have-To-Tweak, especially in the minds of Ada-newbies.

> IMO, there's no point in standardizing such a beast, if you can't get it
> right.

Ah, but I believe that you *can* "get it right."
Scroll-bars should scroll; edit-boxes should be editable; spin-edits
should
constrain themselves to valid [numeric] values which are modified by
the
attached arrow-buttons.

> After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
> ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.
>
> (Honestly, I don't know why someone would want to use Java for that,
> Java doesn't even have real callbacks, but well ...)

Java --> *Shudder*

> >> So if someone expects such a beast can be standardized at all, I'd call him
> >> overly optimistic at least.
>
> > OpenGL and PotScript/PDF are standard and [true] cross-platform, no?
> > Couldn't a standard GUI therefore be built upon them?
>
> I seriously doubt that there are any OpenGL implementation or
> Postscript-interpreters for systems like VxWorks or Integrity. ;)

I was working on an PostScript interpreter as a bit of a hobby-ish
aside. All in Ada, it was all in Ada but was destroyed when my HD
dies. (It was a non-critical/untested code-base so wasn't backed-up.)

OpenGL is a bit interesting as it can be *massively* [IMO] improved
by a) restricting the inputs to valid values, and b) overloading the
functions so as to be rid of the nasty "3fv"-type suffixes.
{The OpenGL standard allows for just such an approach using languages
which support overloading.}

> Wasn't there a standard GUI description language (based on XML?) a couple
> of years ago? What happened to it?

Hopefully it died a slow and horrid death.
{I don't like XML at all; the *only* good things about it are the "/>"
single-tag closure and that attributes *must* be quoted, IMO.}

> And as mentioned above. To put something like that into a language standard,
> you have to keep minimalistic (remember that the vendors need to implement
> it and cost of implementation is also an issue in terms of standardization).
> But being minimalistic also means, that nobody will use it due to lack of
> (necessary) features.

That's where the beauty of the VCL shines: a 'minimal' implementation
may
be extended as needed. {And these extensions are how more complex
types are
introduced/elaborated to the user.}

> IME, if a minimalistic GUI is needed, embed a webserver into your application
> and let it start up the browser. This served me well so far. Virtually everybody
> knows how to use a browser, and in the days of Web 2.0 such an approach is
> probably even "en vogue".


I think Ada could get the upper hand if a) the embedded webserver was
standard,
b) the events [server-side] were easy-to-handle, and c) Ada
programmers
encouraged/evangelized the method.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Shark8]

On Mar 5, 1:07 am, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de>
wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 08:15:17 +0100, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> > Shark8 wrote:
>
> >> Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
> >> Windows [graphics] API
>
> > And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
> > offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
> > document).
>
> Very true, we are such a user. VCL is a constant headache to use [to us].
>
> (The problems begin when the customer sends you exact requirements on the
> UI's look and feel.)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Dmitry A. Kazakovhttp://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

So, is the complaint you have not with th VCL per se but with the
demand
that the look-and-feel be the same?

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 23:37:03 -0800, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> I looked to find an Ada application, that I can download and install,
> which uses GtkAda, but could not find one. (one with menus,
> buttons and such).

I understand your problem. GTK has a considerably high barrier to take,
before you get a feeling that you know GTK. Any useful GTK examples tend to
become blown up and for a beginner to identify the spots actually doing
things you wanted is difficult.

My advise is, just start writing code, you will see. Take a minimal GTK
program, e.g.

   http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Simple_windowed_application#Ada

and gradually extend it.

That is not an Ada's way to design software, but, after all, GTK is not
Ada.

P.S. for plotting see Gtk.Extra:

http://thewhitelion.org/GtkAda-doc-2.10.0/gtkada_rm/gtk-extra-plot.html
http://thewhitelion.org/GtkAda-doc-2.10.0/gtkada_rm/gtk-extra-plot_3d.html

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 00:14:30 -0800 (PST), Shark8 wrote:

> On Mar 5, 1:07�am, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 08:15:17 +0100, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>>> Shark8 wrote:
>>
>>>> Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
>>>> Windows [graphics] API
>>
>>> And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
>>> offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
>>> document).
>>
>> Very true, we are such a user. VCL is a constant headache to use [to us].
>>
>> (The problems begin when the customer sends you exact requirements on the
>> UI's look and feel.)
> 
> So, is the complaint you have not with th VCL per se but with the
> demand that the look-and-feel be the same?

The complaint is that libraries like VCL allows you quickly design a UI,
but they never allow you to design *the* UI.

This is a typical 80/20 case. You get 80% work done instantly, but never
manage rest 20%.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Shark8 wrote:

> On Mar 5, 12:15 am, "Vinzent Hoefler"
> <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
>> Shark8 wrote:
>> > On Mar 4, 10:15 pm, "Vinzent Hoefler"
>> > <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting you should mention Oberon; I just installed it into a VM
>> > to play with.
>> > {VirtualPC is free now, so if you're using Windows there is little
>> > disincentive
>> > to throwing odd/interesting OSes into a VM.}
>>
>> I'm happy user of VirtualBox sind a couple of major versions. ;)
>
> And that diminishes my pointing out that VirtualPC is free how?

Not at all. Just wanted to point out cross-platform alternatives. ;)

> {You're just making my point that it is *easy*/*cheap* to have VMs.}

Precisely.

>> > Delphi's VCL is actually one of the best GUI-builders I've seen...
>> > there was
>> > also the Kylix port of the VCL to the Linux environs which fizzled
>> > out, but
>> > iy *WAS* there.
>>
>> Well, FreePascal has Lazarus, that's probably more cross-platform. :)
>
> Possibly, Though I wasn't able to get it to work last time I tried it.

I hear that a lot. Never used it and there are people actually using it,
so it must work under certain conditions.

>> > Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
>> > Windows [graphics] API
>>
>> And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
>> offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
>> document).
>
> I didn't say we should enshrine the VCL as a standard. I *DID* say
> that the VCL presents us with an intriguing possible opportunity to
> implement a GUI hierarchy.

So did Turbo-Vision. ;)

>> Yes, it is surely *possible*. But it also means that you probably have to
>> trade look-and-feel against the portability. And that means, users of
>> your Ada-GUI will complain about the differences, will not use it or
>> "patch" it according to their specific needs.
>
> True enough. However, the lack-of-GUI may be more weighty than a
> GUI-I-Have-To-Tweak, especially in the minds of Ada-newbies.

So use GtkAda? It may not be in the ISO-standard (neither is Qt which a
lot of C++ programmers seem to prefer), yet it is _available_. And I
think, especially "newbies" care less about standard than we oldtimers
(although for an Ada programmer, I'm probably one of the younger ones.)

>> IMO, there's no point in standardizing such a beast, if you can't get it
>> right.
>
> Ah, but I believe that you *can* "get it right."
> Scroll-bars should scroll; edit-boxes should be editable; spin-edits
> should
> constrain themselves to valid [numeric] values which are modified by
> the
> attached arrow-buttons.

Yes, they should. Unfortunately, the precise semantics one might require
for one particular control can not be standardized without trading it for
implementation effort or portability.

Minor example, but I remember a simple progress bar (pygtk). It was cross-
platform in the sense, that it worked on ever supported system. Yet, its
precise look depended on the window manager/platform. On one only the
progress bar was shown, on another one the percentage was shown inside
the bar, on the other one below it.

We could live with those differences, yet many users won't like it.

>> Wasn't there a standard GUI description language (based on XML?) a couple
>> of years ago? What happened to it?
>
> Hopefully it died a slow and horrid death.

I didn't think the basic idea of having a standard GUI description languge
was stupid. And before they invent another language just for that purpose,
I'd rather see an XML description for it.

>> And as mentioned above. To put something like that into a language standard,
>> you have to keep minimalistic (remember that the vendors need to implement
>> it and cost of implementation is also an issue in terms of standardization).
>> But being minimalistic also means, that nobody will use it due to lack of
>> (necessary) features.
>
> That's where the beauty of the VCL shines: a 'minimal' implementation
> may
> be extended as needed. {And these extensions are how more complex
> types are
> introduced/elaborated to the user.}

Have you ever taken a look at a GUI class hierarchy. Even a minimal one
would be quite large, I'd say.

>> IME, if a minimalistic GUI is needed, embed a webserver into your application
>> and let it start up the browser. This served me well so far. Virtually everybody
>> knows how to use a browser, and in the days of Web 2.0 such an approach is
>> probably even "en vogue".
>
> I think Ada could get the upper hand if a) the embedded webserver was
> standard,

Hmm. Standardizing a thing like AWS might turn out to be easier than standardizing
a whole cross-platform GUI library.

> b) the events [server-side] were easy-to-handle,

I don't think that's a problem once you solved the issue of getting the events
back to the server.

> and c) Ada programmers encouraged/evangelized the method.

Well, I'd do that. I have always been bad when it came to GUI design,
but spitting out XHTML was easy. :)


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
     --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Ludovic Brenta]

"Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes:
> On 3/4/2011 11:15 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>> After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
>> ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

There's a *big* one (mission-critical, 1.5 million SLOC) where I work et
Eurocontrol.  Philippe Waroquiers wrote a paper about it at SIGAda 2003.

> So, something is wrong here in this picture. In other systems, I can
> go to Google and search and find tens of thousands of GUI apps written
> by other languages.

I think this something is simply that too few people use Ada.  Nothing
new here.

> may be I will be the first who will use Ada with GTK and Plplot to
> make a complete scientific Ada GUI application, and I will become very
> famous :)

Way to go.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes:
>> On 3/4/2011 11:15 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>>> After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
>>> ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.
>>
>> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
>> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?
>
> There's a *big* one (mission-critical, 1.5 million SLOC) where I work et
> Eurocontrol.  Philippe Waroquiers wrote a paper about it at SIGAda 2003.

That was the paper about porting the system to Linux, wasn't it? AFAIR, he
didn't mention GtkAda, though.


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
   --  Waldi Ravens

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Ludovic Brenta]

Vinzent Hoefler writes on comp.lang.ada:
> Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>
>> "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes:
>>> On 3/4/2011 11:15 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>>>> After all, there's GtkAda, that's probably as cross-platform as it will
>>>> ever get and yet it doesn't convince users to use Ada.
>>>
>>> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
>>> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?
>>
>> There's a *big* one (mission-critical, 1.5 million SLOC) where I work et
>> Eurocontrol.  Philippe Waroquiers wrote a paper about it at SIGAda 2003.
>
> That was the paper about porting the system to Linux, wasn't it?
> AFAIR, he didn't mention GtkAda, though.

Yes, that was about the porting.  I wasn't there at that time so I can't
be sure, but I know the system at least had a Motif GUI at that time.
It is possible the GtkAda parts of the GUI were introduced only after
this porting.  The system still has a dual Motif/GtkAda GUI to this day.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Peter C. Chapin]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2011, Randy Brukardt wrote:

> And the work to define a standard GUI to the level required for the Ada 
> standard would be immense, especially in order to prevent tying it to any 
> underlying target. (We'd want it to work on both Windows and Linux for 
> instance, without requiring either of them.) And I don't see anyone really 
> stepping up to do that work.

The C++ standard also does not include a standardized graphical interface. 
I'm sure the reasons are the same. It hasn't seemed to have hurt C++'s 
popularity much... I'm sure for the same reasons as outlined in this thread.

Peter

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Peter C. Chapin]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2011, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> So, why isn't any one using Ada to write GUI based applications then if 
> the GUI is there? May be because most Ada programmers are more interested 
> in system, embedded applications?

I think that's a significant reason. I see Ada as a strong systems language 
and many programs of that sort do not need GUIs. In fact it doesn't even 
make sense for them to have GUIs in many cases. Right now I'm working with 
some students on a embedded system using SPARK that will drive a 
nano-satellite. A GUI is the last thing on our minds.

This is not to say that Ada wouldn't be good at desktop applications, but 
I'm not sure GUI programming, per se, would play into the language's 
strengths. Disclaimer: I know very little about GUI programming.

As an aside one of my students mentioned to me about the recent effort to 
port Ada to Android. He was interested in this because a) he's coming to 
like Ada and b) he's taking a class on Android programming. I think it's 
great to see Ada moving into that domain. There was a posting here not long 
ago about it and I applaud those efforts.

Peter

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/05/2011 12:37 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

You could look at Mine Detector:

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html

-- 
Jeff Carter
"So if I understand 'The Matrix Reloaded' correctly, the Matrix is
basically a Microsoft operating system--it runs for a while and
then crashes and reboots. By design, no less. Neo is just a
memory leak that's too hard to fix, so they left him in ... The
users don't complain because they're packed in slush and kept
sedated."
Marin D. Condic
65

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/05/2011 12:37 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

You could look at Mine Detector:

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html

-- 
Jeff Carter
"So if I understand 'The Matrix Reloaded' correctly, the Matrix is
basically a Microsoft operating system--it runs for a while and
then crashes and reboots. By design, no less. Neo is just a
memory leak that's too hard to fix, so they left him in ... The
users don't complain because they're packed in slush and kept
sedated."
Marin D. Condic
65

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/05/2011 12:37 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

You could look at Mine Detector:

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html

-- 
Jeff Carter
"So if I understand 'The Matrix Reloaded' correctly, the Matrix is
basically a Microsoft operating system--it runs for a while and
then crashes and reboots. By design, no less. Neo is just a
memory leak that's too hard to fix, so they left him in ... The
users don't complain because they're packed in slush and kept
sedated."
Marin D. Condic
65

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Rick]

> On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 23:37:03 -0800, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
> > I looked to find an Ada application, that I can download and install,
> > which uses GtkAda, but could not find one. (one with menus,
> > buttons and such).


I work on a PC with AdaCore's G.P.S. 4.3.1 which has a GUI in GtkAda.
I think it's great!


> On Mar 5, 4:28 pm, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
> P.S. for plotting see Gtk.Extra:
>
> http://thewhitelion.org/GtkAda-doc-2.10.0/gtkada_rm/gtk-extra-plot.html
> http://thewhitelion.org/GtkAda-doc-2.10.0/gtkada_rm/gtk-extra-plot_3d...


I have AdaCore's GtkAda 2.14.10.  It does not have anything like what
I see at these URLs.  How do I get this functionality?

GTK Ada, was: Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Simon Clubley]

On 2011-03-05, Nasser M. Abbasi <nma@12000.org> wrote:
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?
>

In my case, I used to use GTK Ada quite a bit a few years ago.

AdaCore then switched to a pure GPL license for the public release
(instead of the GMGPL), so I started writing the GUI part of any
GUI-requiring applications in C.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/05/2011 12:37 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

You could look at Mine Detector:

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html

-- 
Jeff Carter
"So if I understand 'The Matrix Reloaded' correctly, the Matrix is
basically a Microsoft operating system--it runs for a while and
then crashes and reboots. By design, no less. Neo is just a
memory leak that's too hard to fix, so they left him in ... The
users don't complain because they're packed in slush and kept
sedated."
Marin D. Condic
65

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:32:25 -0800 (PST), Rick wrote:

> I have AdaCore's GtkAda 2.14.10.  It does not have anything like what
> I see at these URLs.  How do I get this functionality?

Interesting, don't you have files like

   gtk-extra-plot*.ad*

files in C:\GtkAda\include\gtkada?

Or did you mean the documentation? AdaCore switched the on-line GtkAda
documentation to an IMO worse version. I don't know the reason why they did
so. Anyway, it also contains Gtk.Extra.Plot stuff. See:

http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtkada_rm/gtkada_rm/
http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtkada_rm/gtkada_rm/screenshots.html
http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtkada_rm/gtkada_rm/gtk-extra-plot_3d.ads.html#gtk-extra-plot_3d.ads:44:19
http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtkada_rm/gtkada_rm/gtk-extra-plot.ads.html#gtk-extra-plot.ads:111:19

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/5/2011 4:47 PM, Jeffrey Carter wrote:
> On 03/05/2011 12:37 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>>
>> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
>> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?
>

> You could look at Mine Detector:
>
> http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html
>

Thanks. I did. I installed everything now on linux, gcc, gnat, gtkada,
but get compile error on the above game.

The .exe runs ok on windows, but was trying to compile it from
source on linux, just try see if I can compile an Ada gtk app.

$ gnatmake -I../pragmarc mine_detector.adb `gtkada-config`
gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 mine_detector.adb
gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 user_if.adb
user_if.adb:543:22: subprogram "First_Game" has wrong convention
user_if.adb:543:22: does not match convention of access type "Init_Function"
gnatmake: "user_if.adb" compilation error

I send email to  pragmada@mchsi.com (mailing shown on the web site), but
email bounced back). May be no body home any more.

--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/05/2011 12:37 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?

You could look at Mine Detector:

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html

-- 
Jeff Carter
"So if I understand 'The Matrix Reloaded' correctly, the Matrix is
basically a Microsoft operating system--it runs for a while and
then crashes and reboots. By design, no less. Neo is just a
memory leak that's too hard to fix, so they left him in ... The
users don't complain because they're packed in slush and kept
sedated."
Marin D. Condic
65

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/06/2011 09:23 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> $ gnatmake -I../pragmarc mine_detector.adb `gtkada-config`
> gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 mine_detector.adb
> gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 user_if.adb
> user_if.adb:543:22: subprogram "First_Game" has wrong convention
> user_if.adb:543:22: does not match convention of access type "Init_Function"
> gnatmake: "user_if.adb" compilation error

Which version are you trying to build? This sounds like one of the earlier 
versions being built with a later version of GtkAda. V6.0 should build with the 
latest versions of GtkAda.

> I send email to pragmada@mchsi.com (mailing shown on the web site), but
> email bounced back). May be no body home any more.

I thought that had been updated. Should be

pragmada@pragmada.x10hosting.com

-- 
Jeff Carter
"C++ is like giving an AK-47 to a monk, shooting him
full of crack and letting him loose in a mall and
expecting him to balance your checking account
'when he has the time.'"
Drew Olbrich
52

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Tero Koskinen]

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 23:37:03 -0800 Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
> Other than GPS and the work by Dmitry and few others using GTK here,
> where are the Ada GUI apps written using GTK Ada?
> 
> I looked to find an Ada application, that I can download and install,
> which uses GtkAda, but could not find one. (one with menus,
> buttons and such).

I have been using a modification of Preben Randhol's Klokka[1], named
as Kello:
http://iki.fi/tero.koskinen/ada.html

My modification makes Klokka behave as a Windowmaker dockapp, which
you can then embed into your window manager's dock.

Screenshot:
http://iki.fi/tero.koskinen/hibachi-openbsd-1.png
(Third app from top on the right.)

It should run on any Unix system with X Window System and GtkAda, but
you also need a window manager which supports dockapps. (WindowMaker,
Blackbox, Fluxbox, perhaps some others also)

-- 
Tero Koskinen - http://iki.fi/tero.koskinen/

[1] http://freshmeat.net/projects/klokka

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 3/6/2011 9:09 AM, Jeffrey Carter wrote:
> On 03/06/2011 09:23 AM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>>
>> $ gnatmake -I../pragmarc mine_detector.adb `gtkada-config`
>> gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 mine_detector.adb
>> gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 user_if.adb
>> user_if.adb:543:22: subprogram "First_Game" has wrong convention
>> user_if.adb:543:22: does not match convention of access type "Init_Function"
>> gnatmake: "user_if.adb" compilation error
>
> Which version are you trying to build? This sounds like one of the earlier
> versions being built with a later version of GtkAda. V6.0 should build with the
> latest versions of GtkAda.
>

Sorry I did not say. I put all the inforation in the email I send which bounced
back.

Yes, I tried V4.0 and V5.0 sources on this page

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/mindet.html

I must have overlooked V6.0 link, which now I see. So, I downloaded
that V 6.0, and it builds ok and runs fine, on linux.

$ gnatmake -I../pragmarc mine_detector.adb `gtkada-config`
gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 mine_detector.adb
gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 user_if.adb
gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 field.ads
gcc-4.4 -c -I../pragmarc -I/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 field-operations.adb

gnatbind -I../pragmarc -aI/usr/share/ada/adainclude/gtkada2 -aO/usr/lib/ada/adalib/gtkada2 -x mine_detector.ali

gnatlink mine_detector.ali -L/usr/lib -lgtkada2 -pthread -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -latk-1.0 -lgio-2.0
-lpangoft2-1.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lm -lcairo -lpango-1.0 -lfreetype
-lfontconfig -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lgthread-2.0 -lrt -lglib-2.0
$

nice to finally be able an Ada GUI application from source.


>> I send email to pragmada@mchsi.com (mailing shown on the web site), but
>> email bounced back). May be no body home any more.
>
> I thought that had been updated. Should be
>
> pragmada@pragmada.x10hosting.com
>

They still then have the old email on this page, where I went to download
the additional source needed to build the program:

http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/pragmarc.htm

You'll see the "contact us" link on this page is the one I used.

I am using Linux mint, and was easy to install gcc and all the needed
Ada software needed, also gps. I think Linux is easier to use than
Windows for software development.

Thanks
--Nasser

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[KK6GM]

On Mar 3, 12:46 pm, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> <http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2011/03/02/air-traffic-c...>
>
> And the arguments about it are flying through the air
> as fast as the planes :-)

It may be too late to recover this thread, but I'd be interested in
good, solid arguments as to why this is a good idea or a bad idea.
Both technical and extra-technical arguments.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Rick]

On Mar 6, 5:21 pm, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de>
wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2011 15:32:25 -0800 (PST), Rick wrote:
> > I have AdaCore's GtkAda 2.14.10.  It does not have anything like what
> > I see at these URLs.  How do I get this functionality?
>
> Interesting, don't you have files like
>
>    gtk-extra-plot*.ad*
>
> files in C:\GtkAda\include\gtkada?


As ever, you're right - I do have these files.  I just didn't know I
did.  I guess I'm not alone in assuming that I have only what the
Reference Manual tells me I have.


>
> Or did you mean the documentation? AdaCore switched the on-line GtkAda
> documentation to an IMO worse version. I don't know the reason why they did
> so. Anyway, it also contains Gtk.Extra.Plot stuff. See:
>
> http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtk...
> http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtk...
> http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtk...
> http://libre.adacore.com/wp-content/files/auto_update/gtkada-docs/gtk...


This RM is from AdaCore.  It appears far more comprehensive, although
a little less user friendly.  I, for one, could do without the
friendship if it brought greater comprehension.  Perhaps the GNAT
Academic Program could, at least, offer the option ... ?  It really
opens a whole new world for the (simple) end-user.

Thanks Dmitry

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Shark8]

On Mar 5, 2:01 am, "Vinzent Hoefler"
<0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
> Shark8 wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 12:15 am, "Vinzent Hoefler"
> > <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
> >> Shark8 wrote:
> >> > On Mar 4, 10:15 pm, "Vinzent Hoefler"
> >> > <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776...@t-domaingrabbing.de> wrote:
>
> >> > Interesting you should mention Oberon; I just installed it into a VM
> >> > to play with.
> >> > {VirtualPC is free now, so if you're using Windows there is little
> >> > disincentive
> >> > to throwing odd/interesting OSes into a VM.}
>
> >> I'm happy user of VirtualBox sind a couple of major versions. ;)
>
> > And that diminishes my pointing out that VirtualPC is free how?
>
> Not at all. Just wanted to point out cross-platform alternatives. ;)
>
> > {You're just making my point that it is *easy*/*cheap* to have VMs.}
>
> Precisely.
>
> >> > Delphi's VCL is actually one of the best GUI-builders I've seen...
> >> > there was
> >> > also the Kylix port of the VCL to the Linux environs which fizzled
> >> > out, but
> >> > iy *WAS* there.
>
> >> Well, FreePascal has Lazarus, that's probably more cross-platform. :)
>
> > Possibly, Though I wasn't able to get it to work last time I tried it.
>
> I hear that a lot. Never used it and there are people actually using it,
> so it must work under certain conditions.
>
> >> > Given that the VCL is basically an object-oriented wrapper of the
> >> > Windows [graphics] API
>
> >> And still, a lot of regular users are /not/ satisfied with what the VCL
> >> offers. And it's already huge (thus, nothing I would put in a standards
> >> document).
>
> > I didn't say we should enshrine the VCL as a standard. I *DID* say
> > that the VCL presents us with an intriguing possible opportunity to
> > implement a GUI hierarchy.
>
> So did Turbo-Vision. ;)

Interesting you should mention TurboVision, I actually have a copy
(for
BP7, of course)... I was contemplating incorporating it [or something
similar] into the  UI for my OS.

IMO, an OS should have an uniform API such that a text-bases UI like
Turbo-Vision *AND* a bit-mapped UI like Windows/Macintosh are both
usable.
{I hate it when I can't use a utility-program because [say] the mouse
is
out because of some problem I could fix with that utility had they
actually
implemented keyboard functionality.}

IMO, assuming that the user has a [operational] mouse [or keyboard] is
a
bad assumption -- that the MS Windows installers nor have a virtual
keyboard is a good thing which should be standard (yes, it *IS*
somewhat
tedious clicking in what would be a quick entry using a keyboard),
IMO.

>
> >> Yes, it is surely *possible*. But it also means that you probably have to
> >> trade look-and-feel against the portability. And that means, users of
> >> your Ada-GUI will complain about the differences, will not use it or
> >> "patch" it according to their specific needs.
>
> > True enough. However, the lack-of-GUI may be more weighty than a
> > GUI-I-Have-To-Tweak, especially in the minds of Ada-newbies.
>
> So use GtkAda? It may not be in the ISO-standard (neither is Qt which a
> lot of C++ programmers seem to prefer), yet it is _available_. And I
> think, especially "newbies" care less about standard than we oldtimers
> (although for an Ada programmer, I'm probably one of the younger ones.)

I'm thinking that a rather uniform look-and-feel, for general desktop
OSes,
could be constructed if it were based on a [VERY] thick OpenGL binding
--
that way we would have control over the primitives used to build/
display
the UI.

> >> IMO, there's no point in standardizing such a beast, if you can't get it
> >> right.
>
> > Ah, but I believe that you *can* "get it right."
> > Scroll-bars should scroll; edit-boxes should be editable; spin-edits
> > should
> > constrain themselves to valid [numeric] values which are modified by
> > the
> > attached arrow-buttons.
>
> Yes, they should. Unfortunately, the precise semantics one might require
> for one particular control can not be standardized without trading it for
> implementation effort or portability.

I understand what you're getting at; but I'm not sure that it is a
problem.
One could have a screen-shot and say "" this is how a 'progress-bar'
it to
look." A bit draconian, but valid.

> Minor example, but I remember a simple progress bar (pygtk). It was cross-
> platform in the sense, that it worked on ever supported system. Yet, its
> precise look depended on the window manager/platform. On one only the
> progress bar was shown, on another one the percentage was shown inside
> the bar, on the other one below it.
>
> We could live with those differences, yet many users won't like it.
>
> >> Wasn't there a standard GUI description language (based on XML?) a couple
> >> of years ago? What happened to it?
>
> > Hopefully it died a slow and horrid death.
>
> I didn't think the basic idea of having a standard GUI description languge
> was stupid.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think having a GUI-description
language is
stupid/bad/misguaded... I *DO* think that XML is the wrong choice for
such
a language. {IMO, Delphi's DFM files are much better; the DFM-file
contains
a sort of object-layout where a) only non-default values are supplied,
and
b) children-objects are indeed components within their parent-object.}

As a simple DFM example:
http://rafaelromao.blogspot.com/2009/08/parsing-delphi-dfm-file.html

> And before they invent another language just for that purpose,
> I'd rather see an XML description for it.

I rather dislike XML; not because of what it can do, but because
of precisely how it is abused; I see it becoming the C/C++ of data
formats. (Which is pretty damn sad.)

> >> And as mentioned above. To put something like that into a language standard,
> >> you have to keep minimalistic (remember that the vendors need to implement
> >> it and cost of implementation is also an issue in terms of standardization).
> >> But being minimalistic also means, that nobody will use it due to lack of
> >> (necessary) features.
>
> > That's where the beauty of the VCL shines: a 'minimal' implementation
> > may
> > be extended as needed. {And these extensions are how more complex
> > types are
> > introduced/elaborated to the user.}
>
> Have you ever taken a look at a GUI class hierarchy. Even a minimal one
> would be quite large, I'd say.

Yes; I have.
I think the sheer sizes are the one reason for my trepidation on GUIs.

> >> IME, if a minimalistic GUI is needed, embed a webserver into your application
> >> and let it start up the browser. This served me well so far. Virtually everybody
> >> knows how to use a browser, and in the days of Web 2.0 such an approach is
> >> probably even "en vogue".
>
> > I think Ada could get the upper hand if a) the embedded webserver was
> > standard,
>
> Hmm. Standardizing a thing like AWS might turn out to be easier than standardizing
> a whole cross-platform GUI library.
>
> > b) the events [server-side] were easy-to-handle,
>
> I don't think that's a problem once you solved the issue of getting the events
> back to the server.
>
> > and c) Ada programmers encouraged/evangelized the method.
>
> Well, I'd do that. I have always been bad when it came to GUI design,
> but spitting out XHTML was easy. :)
>
> Vinzent.
>
> --
> A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
> razors.
>      --  Waldi Ravens

I'm liking this discussion; you're quite intelligible and, if I may
say, just
the proper amount of 'adversarial'* to really spark debate.

* Not exactly the right word, but close enough.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/06/2011 02:59 PM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>
> I must have overlooked V6.0 link, which now I see. So, I downloaded
> that V 6.0, and it builds ok and runs fine, on linux.

Glad to hear it.

> They still then have the old email on this page, where I went to download
> the additional source needed to build the program:
>
> http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/pragmarc.htm
>
> You'll see the "contact us" link on this page is the one I used.

Thanks. There is an incorrect link there.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"C++ is like giving an AK-47 to a monk, shooting him
full of crack and letting him loose in a mall and
expecting him to balance your checking account
'when he has the time.'"
Drew Olbrich
52

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Jeffrey Carter]

On 03/06/2011 04:52 PM, Jeffrey Carter wrote:
> On 03/06/2011 02:59 PM, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>>
>> http://pragmada.x10hosting.com/pragmarc.htm
>>
>> You'll see the "contact us" link on this page is the one I used.
>
> Thanks. There is an incorrect link there.

This has now been corrected.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"C++ is like giving an AK-47 to a monk, shooting him
full of crack and letting him loose in a mall and
expecting him to balance your checking account
'when he has the time.'"
Drew Olbrich
52

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/4/2011 8:08 PM, Randy Brukardt wrote:
> If Ada had had a built-in GUI, it surely wouldn't have been designed for
> IPads and the like. Touch interfaces are quite different than Windows/Mac
> (Xerox really) interfaces. Are you really sure that this would be a help?
>
> Java is on their third or fourth GUI design. Their approach is to just throw
> them away.
>
> That of course is available in Ada; if anything, the problem is that there
> are too many GUIs (GTKAda, GWindows, Claw, and on and on...) which prevents
> any of them from being all that standard.
>
> And the work to define a standard GUI to the level required for the Ada
> standard would be immense, especially in order to prevent tying it to any
> underlying target. (We'd want it to work on both Windows and Linux for
> instance, without requiring either of them.) And I don't see anyone really
> stepping up to do that work.

Having a GUI as part of the language standard would be bad for exactly
the reasons you describe. (C++ has no such thing either.) But what you
do need is first class Ada support for the GUI features of important
environments. When people are programming the iPad's multitouch screen,
they ought to be able to do that with a proper Ada API, and not have to
generate their own version by hacking one from a different language.
And it's up to Ada proponents to provide such a thing, because as things
are now, no one else will.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[jimmaureenrogers]

On Mar 3, 2:27 pm, Hyman Rosen <hyro...@mail.com> wrote:
> On 3/3/2011 4:13 PM, Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
>
> > Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>
>      In this paper we present a new multiprocessor garbage collector
>      that achieves maximum measured pause times of 2.6 milliseconds
>      over a set of eleven benchmark programs that perform significant
>      amounts of memory allocation.
>

The real time systems I work on cannot spare a random 2.6 milliseconds
of processing time.
I suspect that many tightly synchronized and scheduled systems would
exhibit erroneous results given a random 2.6 milliseconds of timing
jitter. Our system must be accurately timed to the micro-second level.

The IBM people have over-promised when they claimed that their garbage
collector is non-intrusive.

Jim Rogers

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Hyman Rosen]

On 3/7/2011 7:26 AM, jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>>> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>>
>>
>>       In this paper we present a new multiprocessor garbage collector
>>       that achieves maximum measured pause times of 2.6 milliseconds
>>       over a set of eleven benchmark programs that perform significant
>>       amounts of memory allocation.
>>
>
> The real time systems I work on cannot spare a random 2.6 milliseconds
> of processing time.

But I expect that air traffic control systems can.

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Julian Leyh]

On 5 Mrz., 09:10, Shark8 <onewingedsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wasn't there a standard GUI description language (based on XML?) a couple
> > of years ago? What happened to it?
>
> Hopefully it died a slow and horrid death.
> {I don't like XML at all; the *only* good things about it are the "/>"
> single-tag closure and that attributes *must* be quoted, IMO.}

Something like XUL, XAML, XForms, or UIML?

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Martin Krischik]

Am 03.03.2011, 22:12 Uhr, schrieb Vinzent Hoefler  
<0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776eeb@t-domaingrabbing.de>:

> It "permits" it. But we[1] wouldn't use it, even if there were a compiler
> actually supporting it. ;)

> [1] "We" as in "responsible Ada programmers".

That depends on the task at hand.

Martin

Re: Air traffic control system in Java

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Martin Krischik wrote:

> Am 03.03.2011, 22:12 Uhr, schrieb Vinzent Hoefler
> <0439279208b62c95f1880bf0f8776eeb@t-domaingrabbing.de>:
>
>> It "permits" it. But we[1] wouldn't use it, even if there were a compiler
>> actually supporting it. ;)
>
>> [1] "We" as in "responsible Ada programmers".
>
> That depends on the task at hand.

Sure. But we were talking "real time" here, weren't we?


Vinzent.

-- 
A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying
razors.
    --  Waldi Ravens