New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

ACM has launched a new programming challenge:
http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq

However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
I could understand reasons for having everyone compete with the same
language, but if more than one is allowed, it should be open to all
(including our favorite language, of course ;-) ).

Is anyone on this list influential enough at ACM to address this issue,
or should we start a (mail) mass action?
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[Georg Bauhaus]

Jean-Pierre Rosen schrieb:
> ACM has launched a new programming challenge:
> http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
> 
> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.

Just a thing that I noted when last looking at
ACM Queue (a while ago), namely that the language
selection seems to be in accord with

(a) ACM sponsors,

(b) perception of dominating languages in magazines
for job seekers, CS professors, and labor merchants.

And maybe they don't have Ada staff to look at solutions
written in languages other than the currently supported?

("Currently" is encouraging, anyway.)

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[Adam Beneschan]

On Dec 18, 3:26 am, Jean-Pierre Rosen <ro...@adalog.fr> wrote:
> ACM has launched a new programming challenge:http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
>
> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
> I could understand reasons for having everyone compete with the same
> language, but if more than one is allowed, it should be open to all
> (including our favorite language, of course ;-) ).

"All"?  Georg implied that they may not have the staff to look at Ada
solutions, but I'm sure that they at least have a few people there
that can understand it; there have got to be tons of other obscure
programming languages that nobody there would be able to understand.
Plus, are any of the judges going to be enthusiastic about looking at
a Forth program, or at an APL program that someone wrote in one line
just to prove that they could?? :)

So some discrimination seems necessary---the line has to be drawn
somewhere.  Too bad they drew it on the wrong side of our language.

                               -- Adam

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[KarlNyberg]

On Dec 18, 6:26 am, Jean-Pierre Rosen <ro...@adalog.fr> wrote:
> ACM has launched a new programming challenge:http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
>
> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
> I could understand reasons for having everyone compete with the same
> language, but if more than one is allowed, it should be open to all
> (including our favorite language, of course ;-) ).
>
> Is anyone on this list influential enough at ACM to address this issue,
> or should we start a (mail) mass action?
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>            J-P. Rosen (ro...@adalog.fr)
> Visit Adalog's web site athttp://www.adalog.fr


There is a feedback page associated with the ACM Queue initiative.  As
a longtime ACM member (since 1978), I have used this feature to
request justification for the limitation specified in the competition
and the mechanisms necessary to remove it.

Similar feedback is certainly welcome, I'm sure... :-)

-- Karl --

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[Stephen Leake]

Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> writes:

> Jean-Pierre Rosen schrieb:
>> ACM has launched a new programming challenge:
>> http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
>> 
>> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
>
> Just a thing that I noted when last looking at
> ACM Queue (a while ago), namely that the language
> selection seems to be in accord with
>
> (a) ACM sponsors,
>
> (b) perception of dominating languages in magazines
> for job seekers, CS professors, and labor merchants.
>
> And maybe they don't have Ada staff to look at solutions
> written in languages other than the currently supported?

The competition doesn't mention anything about needing to read the
code.

Once you sign in, you can get more info:

    Player implementations are external to the game itself. A player
    is a separate executable that communicates with the game via
    standard input and standard output. The player is executed when
    the game starts up and continues running until the game is
    finished. At the start of each turn, the game engine sends the
    player a description of the game state. The player reads this
    description from standard input, chooses a move and sends it back
    by writing it to standard output.

    ...

    Player code will be compiled and will run on a virtual machine
    running on a 3.0 Ghz Xeon processor installed with version 5.2
    CentOS. Java submissions will be compiled and run with version 1.6
    of the Sun JDK, and C++ submissions will be compiled with version
    4.1.2 of g++. 

So there's no technical reason the code can't be in Ada. Or any other
language supported by the CentOS distribution!

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[Stephen Leake]

Adam Beneschan <adam@irvine.com> writes:

> On Dec 18, 3:26�am, Jean-Pierre Rosen <ro...@adalog.fr> wrote:
>> ACM has launched a new programming challenge:http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
>>
>> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
>> I could understand reasons for having everyone compete with the same
>> language, but if more than one is allowed, it should be open to all
>> (including our favorite language, of course ;-) ).
>
> "All"?  Georg implied that they may not have the staff to look at Ada
> solutions, but I'm sure that they at least have a few people there
> that can understand it; there have got to be tons of other obscure
> programming languages that nobody there would be able to understand.
> Plus, are any of the judges going to be enthusiastic about looking at
> a Forth program, or at an APL program that someone wrote in one line
> just to prove that they could?? :)
>
> So some discrimination seems necessary---the line has to be drawn
> somewhere.  Too bad they drew it on the wrong side of our language.

I don't see the actual definition of how to "win" the competition, but
the implication is the only thing that counts is winning games against
other code submissions - no judging of code.

We should at least ask for a rationale for the language choices.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[Stephen Leake]

KarlNyberg <karl@grebyn.com> writes:

> On Dec 18, 6:26�am, Jean-Pierre Rosen <ro...@adalog.fr> wrote:
>> ACM has launched a new programming challenge:http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
>>
>> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
>> I could understand reasons for having everyone compete with the same
>> language, but if more than one is allowed, it should be open to all
>> (including our favorite language, of course ;-) ).
>>
>> Is anyone on this list influential enough at ACM to address this issue,
>> or should we start a (mail) mass action?
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> � � � � � �J-P. Rosen (ro...@adalog.fr)
>> Visit Adalog's web site athttp://www.adalog.fr
>
>
> There is a feedback page associated with the ACM Queue initiative.  

http://queue.acm.org/feedback.cfm ? or some thing more specific?

> As a longtime ACM member (since 1978), I have used this feature to
> request justification for the limitation specified in the
> competition and the mechanisms necessary to remove it.
>
> Similar feedback is certainly welcome, I'm sure... :-)

I sent a similar message.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: New ACM challenge is language-discriminatory

[wwilson]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:56:28 -0500, Stephen Leake  
<stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> wrote:

> KarlNyberg <karl@grebyn.com> writes:
>
>> On Dec 18, 6:26ï¿œam, Jean-Pierre Rosen <ro...@adalog.fr> wrote:
>>> ACM has launched a new programming  
>>> challenge:http://queue.acm.org/icpc/index.cfm?page=faq
>>>
>>> However, the only languages allowed are C++, C# and Java.
>>> I could understand reasons for having everyone compete with the same
>>> language, but if more than one is allowed, it should be open to all
>>> (including our favorite language, of course ;-) ).
>>>
>>> Is anyone on this list influential enough at ACM to address this issue,
>>> or should we start a (mail) mass action?
>>> --
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>> ￜ ￜ ￜ ￜ ￜ ￜJ-P. Rosen (ro...@adalog.fr)
>>> Visit Adalog's web site athttp://www.adalog.fr
>>
>>
>> There is a feedback page associated with the ACM Queue initiative.
>
> http://queue.acm.org/feedback.cfm ? or some thing more specific?
>
>> As a longtime ACM member (since 1978), I have used this feature to
>> request justification for the limitation specified in the
>> competition and the mechanisms necessary to remove it.
>>
>> Similar feedback is certainly welcome, I'm sure... :-)
>
> I sent a similar message.
>

I also sent a message that the choice of platform limits the entrants to a  
small subset of posssible ones and this will result in meaningless results.

I didn't mention it in the message, but a lot of ACM members program in  
such "wierd" languages as Cobol, Perl, and so forth.  In fact, one survey  
I saw ssaid that Visual Basic is still commonly used.
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