* Crosstalk Article from Aonix @ 2006-02-10 8:28 adaworks 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: adaworks @ 2006-02-10 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw) In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention of Ada. He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical domain, Ada is still a much better option than Java. In this kind of article one would expect at least a token nod in the direction of Ada from an Aonix author . C and C++ are mentioned often. This is a rather glaring considering that Aonix was once an important player in the world of Ada. The Aonix web site, to be fair, does continue to feature their Ada products. One wonders whether Ada is still a significant percentage of their revenue. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 8:28 Crosstalk Article from Aonix adaworks @ 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE 2006-02-11 3:10 ` adaworks 2006-02-10 15:20 ` jimmaureenrogers 2006-02-10 21:00 ` Mike Silva 2 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2006-02-10 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: adaworks adaworks@sbcglobal.net a �crit : > In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, > an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention > of Ada. He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical And I receive flyers from Aonix on Real Time Java from time to time... but it has been a long time since they sent me a flyer related to Ada :( Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry @ 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE 2006-02-10 13:14 ` Pascal Obry ` (3 more replies) 2006-02-11 3:10 ` adaworks 1 sibling, 4 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: jean-Pierre FAUCHE @ 2006-02-10 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Pascal Obry wrote: > adaworks@sbcglobal.net a �crit : > > > And I receive flyers from Aonix on Real Time Java from time to time... > but it has been a long time since they sent me a flyer related to Ada :( > > Pascal. > Aonix is not going away from Ada! We just released our new 8.2 version of our flagship product ObjectAda, available on many platforms. We are offering ADT, the new Ada plug-in into Eclipse. Our Raven offering is still one of the favorite Ada solutions for safety-critical applications. It is true that Java is a new business for us, but Ada is still an important part of our core business. The rest is marketing ;-) Jean-Pierre Fauche ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE @ 2006-02-10 13:14 ` Pascal Obry [not found] ` <GEELLGGKALBLGOBLCHBAOEMJCNAA.erik@delta-utec.com> ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2006-02-10 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jean-Pierre FAUCHE jean-Pierre FAUCHE a �crit : > Aonix is not going away from Ada! We just released our new 8.2 version > of our flagship product ObjectAda, available on many platforms. We are > offering ADT, the new Ada plug-in into Eclipse. Our Raven offering is > still one of the favorite Ada solutions for safety-critical applications. > It is true that Java is a new business for us, but Ada is still an > important part of our core business. Glad to hear ! > The rest is marketing ;-) And it count for a lot in the feeling about a company ;) In this case Aonix looks like moving away from Ada. This is probably not true, so the truth must be shared ;) Many have in this forum said that it would be nice to have marketing/news information from the Ada vendors. So use the bandwidth to get us informed ! Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix [not found] ` <GEELLGGKALBLGOBLCHBAOEMJCNAA.erik@delta-utec.com> @ 2006-02-10 19:37 ` Colin Paul Gloster 2006-02-10 19:41 ` Ed Falis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Colin Paul Gloster @ 2006-02-10 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andy Walter, Kelvin Nilsen, info Richard Riehle posted on Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:28:40 GMT on news:comp.lang.ada : "In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention of Ada." Ada is actually mentioned once on WWW.STSC.Hill.Af.mil/crosstalk/2006/02/0602Nilsen.html in the "About the Author" section. " He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical domain, Ada is still a much better option than Java. In this kind of article one would expect at least a token nod in the direction of Ada from an Aonix author . C and C++ are mentioned often. This is a rather glaring considering that Aonix was once an important player in the world of Ada." The article was highly marketing driven and contains a number of inconsistent double standards to write favorably about the proposed safety-critical specification for Java or standard (i.e. actual) Java and to denigrate C or C++ or the specification called the Real-Time Specification for Java (and does not even admit the issue of incompatiblity of different real time specifications using the gimmick of having "Java" in their title (e.g. R.A.V.E.N.S.C.A.R. Java (the statement "Ravenscar[ Java, not the original so-called Reliable Ada Verifiable Executive Needed for Scheduling Critical Applications in Realtime which was designed to be amenable to analysis] falls short in that it does not offer a model that can be statically checked," from Tian Zhao; James Noble; Jan Vitek, "Scoped Types for Realtime Java", http://jiangxi.cs.uwm.edu/publication/drafts/scoped04.pdf is amusing); Kelvin Nilsen's (and his Real-Time Working Group's and the defunct J-Consortium's) Real-Time Core Extension; and the J-Consortium's surviving rival the Real-Time for Java Expert Group's Real-Time Specification for Java (and in the non-realtime domain: Javascript which also used the letters "Java" without actually being Java)). "The Aonix web site, to be fair, does continue to feature their Ada products. [..]" However, neither Aonix nor RTSJ JVM vendor aicas seem to list the other as a partner now unlike in the past, but a tangential reference to aicas can still be found in a press release on Aonix's websites dated October 13, 2004. Maybe Aonix and aicas still cooperate, judging from an article in "EE Times": "Java breaks out: Brewing enhancements, OEMs target security, speed and ease of programming" by David Lammers. On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Jean-Pierre FAUCHE wrote: "Aonix is not going away from Ada! We just released our new 8.2 version of our flagship product ObjectAda, available on many platforms. We are offering ADT, the new Ada plug-in into Eclipse. Our Raven offering is still one of the favorite Ada solutions for safety-critical applications. It is true that Java is a new business for us, but Ada is still an important part of our core business. The rest is marketing ;-)" Java is not a new business for Aonix. The first paper on a realtime language which was purported to be Java was by Kelvin Nilsen in 1995 before he founded his Real-Time Working Group; before Real-Time Working Group's J-Consortium was founded; and before the extant Real-Time for Java Expert Group of Sun's was founded. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 19:37 ` Colin Paul Gloster @ 2006-02-10 19:41 ` Ed Falis 2006-02-10 20:00 ` Colin Paul Gloster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Ed Falis @ 2006-02-10 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:37:44 -0500, Colin Paul Gloster <Colin_Paul_Gloster@ACM.org> wrote: > Java is not a new business for Aonix. The first paper on a realtime > language which was purported to be Java was by Kelvin Nilsen in 1995 > before he founded his Real-Time Working Group; before Real-Time Working > Group's J-Consortium was founded; and before the extant Real-Time for > Java Expert Group of Sun's was founded. Except that Kelvin didn't join Aonix until some good time after 2000. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 19:41 ` Ed Falis @ 2006-02-10 20:00 ` Colin Paul Gloster 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Colin Paul Gloster @ 2006-02-10 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Ed Falis wrote: "On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:37:44 -0500, Colin Paul Gloster <Colin_Paul_Gloster@ACM.org> wrote: > Java is not a new business for Aonix. The first paper on a realtime language > which was purported to be Java was by Kelvin Nilsen in 1995 before he founded > his Real-Time Working Group; before Real-Time Working Group's J-Consortium was > founded; and before the extant Real-Time for Java Expert Group of Sun's was > founded. Except that Kelvin didn't join Aonix until some good time after 2000." Fair enough -- I did not know that -- but Aonix and aicas were partners as long ago as 2003 (earlier than the earliest extant mention on Aonix's websites). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE 2006-02-10 13:14 ` Pascal Obry [not found] ` <GEELLGGKALBLGOBLCHBAOEMJCNAA.erik@delta-utec.com> @ 2006-02-10 19:45 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2006-02-11 2:59 ` adaworks 3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2006-02-10 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) jean-Pierre FAUCHE wrote: > The rest is marketing ;-) Marketing a technically inferior solution for safety-critical SW development at the expense of a technically superior solution is hardly a recommendation for a company. Ignoring the ethical considerations, what are the liability implications of selling someone on an inferior solution that fails, resulting in serious injury or loss of life? Seems to me it could be significant. -- Jeff Carter "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." Blazing Saddles 89 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2006-02-10 19:45 ` Jeffrey R. Carter @ 2006-02-11 2:59 ` adaworks 3 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: adaworks @ 2006-02-11 2:59 UTC (permalink / raw) "jean-Pierre FAUCHE" <fauche@aonix.fr> wrote in message news:dsi1vl$5pj$1@s1.news.oleane.net... > > > Aonix is not going away from Ada! From the article written by someone from Aonix, this is not apparent. More damaging is that the absence of any mention of Ada, from a company that was founded on Ada technology, gives the false impression that Aonix is no longer interested in Ada. That impression contributes to the decline of Ada. It is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. This is truly sad since Aonix was once an advocate for Ada and now seems to be saying, "We are de-emphasizing Ada in favor of an inferior technology, Real-time Java." Everything the author thinks will make Java better is already present in Ada. Why is there no mention of that fact? There was a time when I was happy to see Aonix taking a stand for what was right. I see the image a bit tarnished by this article. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE @ 2006-02-11 3:10 ` adaworks 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: adaworks @ 2006-02-11 3:10 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1525 bytes --] "Pascal Obry" <pascal@obry.net> wrote in message news:43EC6B05.90807@obry.net... > adaworks@sbcglobal.net a �crit : > > In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, > > an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention > > of Ada. He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical > > And I receive flyers from Aonix on Real Time Java from time to time... > but it has been a long time since they sent me a flyer related to Ada :( > > Pascal. I agree. I used to receive Ada information from Aonix, see them publish ads for Ada, and be active in promoting it. Ever since they did, probably one of the dumbest things they ever did, close the Boston office and lose their best Ada people, they seem to have lost interest in promoting their Ada products. This is unfortunate because they continue to have good technology, good people involved in updating that technology, and Ada products that deserve more publicity. It seems the current management simply does not understand the importance of keeping Ada enthusiasts interested in their products. We are the people who make clients and others aware of the choices among Ada products. The failure, if there is one, needs to be laid at the feet of a management that has no sense of how to lead the industry using the excellent technology they have available to them. Of course, failure of leadership is a common problem throughout industry so I guess they can coast for a long time before this catches up with them. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 8:28 Crosstalk Article from Aonix adaworks 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry @ 2006-02-10 15:20 ` jimmaureenrogers 2006-02-10 21:00 ` Mike Silva 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: jimmaureenrogers @ 2006-02-10 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) adaworks@sbcglobal.net wrote: > In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, > an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention > of Ada. He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical > domain, Ada is still a much better option than Java. I had an email conversation with the author of that article. He is aware of Ada. He also claims that Ada is loosing market share in real-time applications. Looking into the safety-critical Java specification I find that Ben Brogsol has been credited with some work on the specification. Ben was deeply involved with the first Ada definition and the Ada 95 definition. The author is clearly trying to provide some marketing for safety- critical Java. He claims that most safety-critical code is currently being done in C and C++. He believes safety-critical Java is a better tool. While he answered many of my questions he did not answer my question about safety-critical Java's support for thread temporal self-determination. That is my term for the capability of a thread to maintain its own critical timing even in the face of conditional synchronization of shared resources. Ada provides the select command to allow a task to extract itself from an entry queue based upon various conditions, including a time-out. The Java model of conditional synchronization uses the wait() command. There are two versions of the wait() command, one with a time-out and one without a time-out. The problem is that the calling thread does not control the wait() command. It is called within the synchronized block. This would be like putting a timeout inside the queue handler of a protected entry. The calling thread has no control over its own timing. All threads calling a common synchronized block are treated the same. There is also still no queuing policy for the wait() command, although there is some defense against priority inversion with various priority promotion schemes. Jim Rogers ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 8:28 Crosstalk Article from Aonix adaworks 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry 2006-02-10 15:20 ` jimmaureenrogers @ 2006-02-10 21:00 ` Mike Silva 2006-02-11 7:05 ` Martin Krischik 2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Silva @ 2006-02-10 21:00 UTC (permalink / raw) adaworks@sbcglobal.net wrote: > In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, > an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention > of Ada. He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical > domain, Ada is still a much better option than Java. In this > kind of article one would expect at least a token nod > in the direction of Ada from an Aonix author . C and C++ > are mentioned often. This is a rather glaring considering that > Aonix was once an important player in the world of Ada. I do wonder about all this real time and safety critical Java stuff. Will it end up being a case of neither fish (not the Java everybody knows) nor fowl (not a world-class language for RT and safety critical work)? I also wonder if the Java programming culture will produce good RT and SC programmers. And isn't that the idea, that there are all those Java programmers out there to recruit? I just have this vision of somebody in the 60s creating a real-time, safety-critical version of COBOL to take advantage of all that COBOL talent. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Crosstalk Article from Aonix 2006-02-10 21:00 ` Mike Silva @ 2006-02-11 7:05 ` Martin Krischik 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Martin Krischik @ 2006-02-11 7:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Mike Silva wrote: > > adaworks@sbcglobal.net wrote: >> In a recent article about safety-critical software, the author, >> an employee of Aonix, manages to avoid even one mention >> of Ada. He seems to be unaware that, in the safety-critical >> domain, Ada is still a much better option than Java. In this >> kind of article one would expect at least a token nod >> in the direction of Ada from an Aonix author . C and C++ >> are mentioned often. This is a rather glaring considering that >> Aonix was once an important player in the world of Ada. > > I do wonder about all this real time and safety critical Java stuff. > Will it end up being a case of neither fish (not the Java everybody > knows) nor fowl (not a world-class language for RT and safety critical > work)? I also wonder if the Java programming culture will produce good > RT and SC programmers. And isn't that the idea, that there are all > those Java programmers out there to recruit? You mean like those retrained gardeners and butchers the various departments if employment in the western world are creating every year? Yes, sure, after there 'intensive' 6 month Java course and a 'harsh' test by the chamber of comers they are perfectly equipped for RT and safety critical work. > I just have this vision of somebody in the 60s creating a real-time, > safety-critical version of COBOL to take advantage of all that COBOL > talent. This is not the first time that silly idea is comming about? When do they ever learn? Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-02-11 7:05 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-02-10 8:28 Crosstalk Article from Aonix adaworks 2006-02-10 10:29 ` Pascal Obry 2006-02-10 12:45 ` jean-Pierre FAUCHE 2006-02-10 13:14 ` Pascal Obry [not found] ` <GEELLGGKALBLGOBLCHBAOEMJCNAA.erik@delta-utec.com> 2006-02-10 19:37 ` Colin Paul Gloster 2006-02-10 19:41 ` Ed Falis 2006-02-10 20:00 ` Colin Paul Gloster 2006-02-10 19:45 ` Jeffrey R. Carter 2006-02-11 2:59 ` adaworks 2006-02-11 3:10 ` adaworks 2006-02-10 15:20 ` jimmaureenrogers 2006-02-10 21:00 ` Mike Silva 2006-02-11 7:05 ` Martin Krischik
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