* RE: An Ada IDE and discussions @ 2001-07-17 20:51 Beard, Frank 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Beard, Frank @ 2001-07-17 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org' I saw a demo, can't remember the product name, probably six or seven years ago, where the GUI interface was developed on a UNIX platform. The vendor also had a set of libraries for Windows. On Unix, it looked like Motif, but when it was linked on Windows it looked like Windows. Granted the demo only had some drop down menus, a listbox or two, and some buttons. Maybe someone will remember the product. The problem for us was when the decision was made to port to Windows they took away our Unix boxes. The GUI builder only worked on Unix, but could be linked with their Windows libraries to have a Windows product. So, it sounded ideal if you needed your product running in both environments; otherwise, Windows users would have no reason to go out and buy a Unix box just to do the user interface. I know one of the goals of Screen Machine, by Objective Interfaces, was to allow creation of a highly portable UI across various OS's. Anybody know about that product? And whatever happened to it? There was another GUI builder product (I think) by Frontier Technologies that I think was targeting both Unix and Windows (off of Unix for five years and forget everything). Anybody know about that product? We were using Bluestone on HP-UX, but they didn't have anything for Windows at the time, so we dropped interest in them. It seems like GtkAda could take the same approach as the first product, or Screen Machine, so the product looks like a native application depending on where it's linked. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Marin David Condic [mailto:marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com] Win32 programming *is* a standard of sorts that is widely used - millions of people have it & use it daily. Hence ignoring that market is not wise. But remember that the various flavors of Unix are *also* a kind of a standard that is used by millions of people daily. Operating in that environment is very important as well. Ada is (at least in part) about standards *and* portability. Its nice to be able to build code on one machine and have it compile/run on another machine with a very different architecture. To this end, I applaud GtkAda - it is trying to provide a common GUI building environment across two very different platforms & from what I gather is succeeding at that. It is hard to merge the two systems without settling on *some* style that is going to clash with the other style. Is it wise to adopt the Unix/Motif look-&-feel and try to force Windows into that mode? Or should the Windows L&F have been forced onto the Unix side? Take your pick - some substantial part of the computer programming & using weorld is going to be unhappy. I guess that since the GtkAda started from the Gtk/Unix world, the choice got made to move that style to the Windows side. Should they have pitched the style & started fresh? They might not have had a product at all if they did. Certainly, they'd face competition from Claw and others. It might have become a "me too!" product that had no special niche. I won't gripe about GtkAda not fitting the paradigm I'm used to. I'd consider it as a potential tool if a) I was developing in Ada and b) I needed portability between Unix & Windows. (If I was Windows only, I'd want something that did the L&F of Windows rather than a compromise.) One could also evaluate the possibility of using Ada and Java to produce systems that were portable - and even Internet ready, so there are alternatives. The decision would come down to a comparison of environments & features & price and so on. The minute you remove constraint A (develop in Ada) the choices expand a lot. Hence if the objective is to build apps that are portable between Unix and Windows, GtkAda has to stack up favorably against a lot of other players. So the question for the developers is "What market(s) are you shooting for and how do you stack up against the competitors in that market?" MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* RE: An Ada IDE and discussions
@ 2001-07-20 16:50 Beard, Frank
2001-07-23 8:26 ` nicolas
2001-07-24 2:54 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Beard, Frank @ 2001-07-20 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org'
I was browsing around the Aonix Web site
(http://www.aonix.com/content/index.html)
and clicked on the Product button at the top of the screen.
I just happened to look at TeleUSE. It is supposed to be a
high powered GUI/Development tool for Unix. I noticed a new
product TeleUSE/Windows. The product now claims you can do
development on either platform and run on the other. I quote
"You need the flexibility to build your applications from a
single source - and give them the look and feel of the platform
on which they are deployed, whether it be UNIX or Windows. "
It also says;
"The "Wintif" library - is capable of rendering GUI elements
that look and feel like Motif, Windows NT, or Windows 95."
and
"After creating an executable for Solaris, the developers
transfer all their TeleUSE files to TeleUSE/Win on Windows.
TeleUSE/Win, which includes precisely the same set of tools
that are provided by TeleUSE on Solaris, accepts all the
files. When the Application Builder is invoked, TeleUSE/Win
automatically invokes Visual C++ and links the application
with libraries that provide a native Windows look and feel."
I know you can't really go by what a vendor says, but if it's
half as good as they claim, why don't they advertise it more,
or at least speak up on this list.
Has anyone used this product?
Does it run on Linux?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: nicolas [mailto:n.brunot@cadwin.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:14 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: An Ada IDE and discussions
"Stefan Skoglund" <stetson@ebox.tninet.se> a écrit dans le message news:
3B54BF44.646290DC@ebox.tninet.se...
> Using the windows look&feel in the GIMP wouldn't work !!
Is there a technical reason for that ?
We have a proprietary GUI originally developped for DOS
It was then ported to Unix
And finally to Windows when it came to evidence that in our market every DOS
user and 99% of unix users switched to Windows.
Originally it was a Motif look GUI.
A few years ago we changed the look to a Windows look GUI
There was some strong debate about that, but a few weeks after the change,
nobody (us internally as well as customers) would even think in coming back
to Motif
I have a RH 7.0 where a lot of things have a Windows look.
When you use swing, you have a choice, but you have a Windows look
By the way, are you sure it is very useful to re-invent swing again ?
_______________________________________________
comp.lang.ada mailing list
comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
http://ada.eu.org/mailman/listinfo/comp.lang.ada
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-20 16:50 Beard, Frank @ 2001-07-23 8:26 ` nicolas 2001-07-24 2:54 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: nicolas @ 2001-07-23 8:26 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 873 bytes --] We never tried it, since we have our own product evolving for our needs. I think that to be successfull, a Ada GUI product should 1/ be a standard product packaged with main Ada compilers swing for Java is a good example 2/ be absolutely compatible and familiar to developpers with widely used products for popular languages. Especially for Windows and Linux developpers. We have Java applications, for which the portability is even better than Ada applications. We don't even have to recompile for different platforms. "Beard, Frank" <beardf@spawar.navy.mil> a �crit dans le message news: mailman.995648003.8404.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org... I know you can't really go by what a vendor says, but if it's half as good as they claim, why don't they advertise it more, or at least speak up on this list. Has anyone used this product? Does it run on Linux? Frank ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-20 16:50 Beard, Frank 2001-07-23 8:26 ` nicolas @ 2001-07-24 2:54 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Warren W. Gay VE3WWG @ 2001-07-24 2:54 UTC (permalink / raw) "Beard, Frank" wrote: > I was browsing around the Aonix Web site > (http://www.aonix.com/content/index.html) > and clicked on the Product button at the top of the screen. > I just happened to look at TeleUSE. It is supposed to be a > high powered GUI/Development tool for Unix. I noticed a new > product TeleUSE/Windows. The product now claims you can do > development on either platform and run on the other. I quote ...snip... > I know you can't really go by what a vendor says, but if it's > half as good as they claim, why don't they advertise it more, > or at least speak up on this list. > > Has anyone used this product? > Does it run on Linux? > > Frank Linux? Dunno.. We looked at it briefly. We were looking for a rapid X-Window development package, and for this, it didn't seem to make the grade for us. I am convinced that if you become well-versed in their product, including their "D" language, it might work well. However, if you have the situation where your developers are not using the product daily/weekly, and/or they're not quick on the technical uptake, you won't find it's use "rapid". It does purport to support the "whole development life cycle", which may justify the "extra effort". For us, quick and _easy_ development was more important, since for maintenance, we rarely make big changes to the screens after the fact. What I found with my initial trials was that I could have coded the darn thing by hand faster (at least for smaller screens). What I also found was that when I got it to generate code, I often ended up choosing names that conflicted with "something else", and so it would seldom work for me the first time (there would be conflicts in their "D" language with either other objects or keywords). This would be OK, but there was never any errors or warnings -- just the compiled code would not work. After much investigation, you could eventually make it work -- but this defeated the "quick development time" that we were looking for. We ended up going for X-Designer, which was much easier to learn (you might be able to use it without documentation). It did not require proprietary widget libraries either. THe downsides are that it has fewer widgets to choose from (but you can add to the selection), and it does not try to address the full "development life cycle". X-Designer is available for Linux, and I think it can support Ada if you use some downloadable perl script to do some script-magic. FWIW, Warren. -- Warren W. Gay VE3WWG http://members.home.net/ve3wwg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* RE: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? @ 2001-07-10 2:30 Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-10 10:41 ` Michael Erdmann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. @ 2001-07-10 2:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada From: Bob Leif To: Michal Nowak et al. Michal Nowak suggested, "Maybe a CD-player?" There are two reasonably simple opportunities for the Windows ME and other markets. 1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME. 2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful. I believe that the target price should be between $10 to $20 for each program with automated delivery via the Web. -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of Michal Nowak Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 9:51 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? >Heres a challenge...one that I'm taking up myself. For each Ada developer >in the group here to find a piece of software that they like and find useful, >and do thier own little re-implementation of it in Ada95, with all the little >benefits that Ada95 offers implemented in addition to what comes standard >with the application. > >Personally, I think the server side is where this type of challenge would >truly show Ada95 for the gem that I've found it to be. > >It doesnt have to be a huge project. Just a something simple. An email app, >a database frontend/client, blah blah blah. [snip] >What do you think? I was also thinking about it. For me it's a good idea. I'm still newbie to Ada and it will be a good exercise to get know Ada better. And it will be a great pleasure to drop some Ada program to people. Maybe a CD-player? There are some nice CD-Players for linux, but there was always something missing. So I have intention to write one and share with it. I hope I succeed... :) -Mike ------------------------ Mike Nowak mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? 2001-07-10 2:30 "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. @ 2001-07-10 10:41 ` Michael Erdmann 2001-07-11 6:42 ` McDoobie 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Michael Erdmann @ 2001-07-10 10:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada "Robert C. Leif, Ph.D." schrieb: > .................. > 1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME. > 2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for > backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful. What ever you intend to do, the impportant question is how we are boundling such acitivities. Either you all could setup project pages e.g at sourceforge (if you comply to open source) or we setup one central place some where to support such an initiative. I would be willing to support such an effort to some extend! Regards M.,Erdmann PS: One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the art IDE for the GNAT available. This is what i am interested in. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? 2001-07-10 10:41 ` Michael Erdmann @ 2001-07-11 6:42 ` McDoobie 2001-07-11 14:53 ` chris.danx 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: McDoobie @ 2001-07-11 6:42 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <mailman.994781951.32588.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Michael Erdmann <michael.erdmann@snafu.de> wrote: > "Robert C. Leif, Ph.D." schrieb: > >> .................. >> 1) Fax software. Symantec WinFax does not support Windows ME. >> 2) Roxio (Adaptec) Direct CD has extremely limited functionality for >> backups. A GUI version of DOS XCopy would be far more useful. > > What ever you intend to do, the impportant question is how we are > boundling such acitivities. Either you all could setup project pages e.g > at sourceforge (if you comply to open source) or we setup one central > place some where to support such an initiative. > > I would be willing to support such an effort to some extend! > > > Regards > M.,Erdmann > > PS: > > One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the > art IDE for the GNAT available. This is what i am interested in. > > I tend to teeter more towards to Free Software side of things, ala LGPL. However, I'm certainly in favor of commercial projects that develop software which is actually of commercial quality.(Much of what passes as a commercial app today falls far short of that goal.) A state of the art IDE sounds like an awsome idea. It could be implemented for the GNAT system initially. If it was Open Source, it wouldn't be too difficult to expand it to include other toolchains as well. Another thing that might help would be to develope a sort of ultra-reliable toolset, sort of like the Praxis Systems Sparks toolchain, only directed more towards servers and the desktop market, rather than the embedded and specialized systems that the Spark tools are geared towards. I'm still an up and coming Ada developer myself, just started learning not long ago, so I'm not sure how much help I would be. Coming from a primarily procedural background(C, Assembler, TI-BASIC.) But I have brushed up against the OOP paradigm.(Perl, Python, a little Java.) So it would seem that a project like this could really help my training. Anyways. Good idea. Lets bounce the idea around a little and see if it's workable. Like I said, not sure how much help I would be of yet...but it doesnt hurt to try. Laters McDoobie chris@dont.spam.me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? 2001-07-11 6:42 ` McDoobie @ 2001-07-11 14:53 ` chris.danx [not found] ` <Qn_27.15449$Kf3.182453@www.newsranger.com> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2001-07-11 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw) > > One thing which i find realy boring that there is no real state of the > > art IDE for the GNAT available. This is what i am interested in. > A state of the art IDE sounds like an awsome idea. It could be implemented > for the GNAT system initially. If it was Open Source, it wouldn't be too > difficult to expand it to include other toolchains as well. Could you define State Of The Art IDE for me please? A while back I had the idea for an IDE that could handle different compilers, and didn't need things on the PATH. Anyway, I didn't get very far, but recently I've been looking at the idea again, possibly using GWindows, and I'm looking for ideas. I was thinking of an IDE for Windows with some of the following - Syntax Highlighting - Project Management facilities - Code Completion (good for long package structures like x.y.a.b.c ?) - Possibility an Object browser - Ada Aware - Non Specific Compiler support - and others What other features would you like to see? What features would you not like to see? I would be willing to contribute time to this since my current project isn't anywhere near the coding stage (not that coding of an IDE would start straight off: DESIGN COMES FIRST), but I have a large gap in my time to fill (until october) and would be genuinly interested in a SotA IDE for Ada 95. Development wouldn't stop after october, just slow down a little (if i was the only developer!). I would hope the project to be open source, possibly under the GPL or X something or other licenses. Regards, Chris Campbell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
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* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions [not found] ` <f49tktghbv140bg63a292jul1h940pj5pt@4ax.com> @ 2001-07-13 23:28 ` chris.danx 2001-07-14 7:08 ` Michael Erdmann 2001-07-16 16:52 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2001-07-13 23:28 UTC (permalink / raw) "Brian Orpin" <abuse@borpin.co.uk> wrote in message news:f49tktghbv140bg63a292jul1h940pj5pt@4ax.com... > On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 02:47:46 GMT, "DuckE" <nospam_steved94@home.com> > wrote: > > >So yes, I do see the need for these features in the form of an IDE for > >Windows. The Windows front end on Emacs is not consistant with other > >windows programs. Such an editor is definitely desirable. > > Your assumption is that all users are 'Windows' users. That's not what Steve(?) said at all. "an IDE for Windows" is not saying all users are Windows users, it's an IDE for Windows users. If ppl want Ada to become popular, you have to appeal to the biggest potential user base, which is the Windows platform. However much some of you may dislike the OS, it is the domininant OS and there is no denying it. I'm doing this IDE because a) I (and others) need compiler configurability b) It's an interesting problem comprising of many different problems, algorithms and solutions c) It gives me experience with working on slightly bigger apps and managing it all d) It's a project I can do e) I'll learn from it. f) It may do something for Ada* g) It'll be free and it's [ Oh yeah, no way am I distribing patches to versions in dif(f) files. I hate them, I have nothing but trouble with them, and see no reason for their use in the modern age. Everything you need will go in one zip and no bloomin' iffs. ] Jerry Coffin and I have had a discussion of various issues related to the IDE and it's design on the alt.os.development thread "Re: Ada ? C ? was Re: Jochen Liedtke has died". I know the title is a bit iffy, discussing Ada under a thread that started with a principle L4 developer, but you may want to take a look through the discussion if curious about the IDE and where it's at... > Emacs predates No argument > Windoze and is available on just about any platform and any OS. I see no reason why that should be achievable for an IDE (though I have no wish to do so at present). One possibility would be to port gwindows to wine or something, but i'm unsure about this and it's a lot of work. > You can > invoke modes to make it 'more Windows like' if you wish. Yeah, but can you click..click..click , and do this if you don't know how to use it? I've never had to look through a bunch of help files to find out how to use anything like JBuilder or ConTEXT! [** HCI bit **] Fitt's law: (try http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5724/g1/#procons for examples of fitt's law) tell's us that keystroke interface will win over a totally GUI based solution, for competent users. But GUI interfaces do feature keystrokes for at least the critical functions, making them as fast for competent users for critical tasks. For non-critical tasks, there is a penalty for the traditional GUI interface. My thoughts: The penalty for GUI systems is offset by the familiarity of the interface and the previous knowledge the user has accumulated in the world (other GUI IDEs). A keystroke interface, while desirable for experienced users, doesn't allow knowledge accumulated in the world to be transferred as readily to new scenarios. In the case of Emacs however, this is eliminated by the near total uniformity of the key interface accross various different editing modes. Comparing the learning curves of a GUI IDE, and a keystroke interface leads me to the conclusion that a GUI IDE is a suitable candidate for the majority of uses in circumstances where the time available is tight, or the developer is eager to get working and they are unfamiliar with the Emacs interface. Also this analysis applies to the more traditional GUI technologies e.g. linear menus. A pie menu on the other hand may offer comparible performance to keystroke interface, though this needs further investigation. The benefit of the pie-menu is negated to some extent by the time it will take for a user to learn this concept, and become familiar with the mouse ahead sequences. The latter will IMO require less time to learn than the keystroke approach. While the former requires very little time (and at least a two button mouse :-) ). NOTE: If the developer is familiar with Emacs, then he or she is free to use it, unless their manager objects. [end HCI bit] > That is of course what Tutorials (built in) and FAQs are about. Again, the Windows GUI based IDEs are much easier to learn to use (ok, there are some oddballs, but those designers haven't read "the design of everyday things" by Norman :-) ), and it's likely managers don't want to have a high learning curve for tools. Chris Campbell *Ada 95 is a nice language but I'm no die hard. It's not a good tool for certain problems and I freely acknowledge this. When a problem arises and Ada doesn't offer an elegant solution other languages are used. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-13 23:28 ` An Ada IDE and discussions chris.danx @ 2001-07-14 7:08 ` Michael Erdmann 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx 2001-07-16 16:52 ` Ted Dennison 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Michael Erdmann @ 2001-07-14 7:08 UTC (permalink / raw) "chris.danx" schrieb: > That's not what Steve(?) said at all. "an IDE for Windows" is not saying all > users are Windows users, it's an IDE for Windows users. > > If ppl want Ada to become popular, you have to appeal to the biggest potential > user base, which is the Windows platform. However much some of you may dislike > the OS, it is the domininant OS and there is no denying it. You are right, but keep it potable between platforms e.g. GTK for Linux. > I'm doing this IDE because > > a) I (and others) need compiler configurability Why, most of the commercial compilers include an IDE. The times are long a go, that a compiler was just an CLI issue. Only the GNAT is not cleanly integrated into an IDE (except for GLIDE which i dont like) > b) It's an interesting problem comprising of many different > problems, algorithms and solutions > > c) It gives me experience with working on slightly > bigger apps and managing it all An IDE is a quite big application. Assume at least 2 ot 3 PY in average depending on the functionatlity. The effort will increase dramatically with the user configuration options. > d) It's a project I can do I you start such a project i like to work on this issue as well. Did you already thought about a home site for the project? May be sourceforge.net is a good location. > e) I'll learn from it. This is for sure. May be it should not be written in Ada at all, may be in Java? > f) It may do something for Ada* This is where i am not so sure, but i displike the environment which is currently available the the GNAT. Regards M.Erdmann ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-14 7:08 ` Michael Erdmann @ 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx 2001-07-15 3:46 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2001-07-14 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw) > > That's not what Steve(?) said at all. "an IDE for Windows" is not saying all > > users are Windows users, it's an IDE for Windows users. > > > > If ppl want Ada to become popular, you have to appeal to the biggest potential > > user base, which is the Windows platform. However much some of you may dislike > > the OS, it is the domininant OS and there is no denying it. > > You are right, but keep it potable between platforms e.g. GTK for > Linux. That means there can be no use of GWindows and using GTK/Ada instead. I might consider that, but I'm not familiar with Gtk at all, and it needs to support accelerator keys, make plugins possible, allow dynamic menus, allow custom controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole thing down? > > I'm doing this IDE because > > > > a) I (and others) need compiler configurability > > Why, most of the commercial compilers include an IDE. The times are long a > go, that a compiler was just an CLI issue. Only the GNAT is not cleanly integrated > > into an IDE (except for GLIDE which i dont like) My thought isn't that it should deal exclusively with Ada (only in the beginning) but should allow a programmer to use other languages and tools from within the IDE, link it all together, debug it, etc. Maybe never needing to leave the environment to completely build the program. However I'd be happy if it handled different Ada compilers seamlessly. > > d) It's a project I can do > > I you start such a project i like to work on this issue as well. Did you already > thought about a home site for the project? May be sourceforge.net is a > good location. Even a little help would be great, but if not then that's ok, i'm prepared for the level of work and can handle it. I don't have a home site yet, and only a little code. Most of what I've done in the last few days has been to design a minimal IDE that will make up the first prototype. The prototype isn't a release, just an experiment in compiler configuration. There is to be no Syntax Highlighting and minimal features in the 1st prototype. > > e) I'll learn from it. > > This is for sure. May be it should not be written in Ada at all, may be in Java? Away you and ... The ide's written in Java I've used have been really slow and had patchy graphics, well just crap and that was with JIT on. { If anyones looking for a fast cross platform technology check out Juice (it's really fast, whips JVM), the only drawback is they didn't do much with it and it's not well known (and needs patience and commitment); I say someone should get an Ada compiler for it. Then Juice and Ada would blow Java out the water, well out of the fabric of space and time actually. The ppl who developed it made the mistake of tying development to the Oberon Environment, but it can run in diff browsers and all that's needed is a stand alone version, so you can run and develop apps! It's a real nice fast system that could make Sun (and .NET) needing Cocodamol. } Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* RE: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx @ 2001-07-15 3:46 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-16 11:12 ` Stefan Skoglund ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. @ 2001-07-15 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada From: Bob Leif To: Chris Danx et al. I totally agree that, "My thought isn't that it should deal exclusively with Ada (only in the beginning) but should allow a programmer to use other languages and tools from within the IDE, link it all together, debug it, etc." This could be accomplished by creating an IDE based on XML and driven by Ada. Each language would have its own schema. Besides Ada, a schema for XML should be included. I hope to have a discussion and would welcome one or more presentations on this subject at the SIGAda 2001 Workshop on �Creating a Symbiotic Relationship Between XML and Ada�. -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of chris.danx Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 5:52 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: An Ada IDE and discussions > > That's not what Steve(?) said at all. "an IDE for Windows" is not saying all > > users are Windows users, it's an IDE for Windows users. > > > > If ppl want Ada to become popular, you have to appeal to the biggest potential > > user base, which is the Windows platform. However much some of you may dislike > > the OS, it is the domininant OS and there is no denying it. > > You are right, but keep it potable between platforms e.g. GTK for > Linux. That means there can be no use of GWindows and using GTK/Ada instead. I might consider that, but I'm not familiar with Gtk at all, and it needs to support accelerator keys, make plugins possible, allow dynamic menus, allow custom controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole thing down? > > I'm doing this IDE because > > > > a) I (and others) need compiler configurability > > Why, most of the commercial compilers include an IDE. The times are long a > go, that a compiler was just an CLI issue. Only the GNAT is not cleanly integrated > > into an IDE (except for GLIDE which i dont like) My thought isn't that it should deal exclusively with Ada (only in the beginning) but should allow a programmer to use other languages and tools from within the IDE, link it all together, debug it, etc. Maybe never needing to leave the environment to completely build the program. However I'd be happy if it handled different Ada compilers seamlessly. > > d) It's a project I can do > > I you start such a project i like to work on this issue as well. Did you already > thought about a home site for the project? May be sourceforge.net is a > good location. Even a little help would be great, but if not then that's ok, i'm prepared for the level of work and can handle it. I don't have a home site yet, and only a little code. Most of what I've done in the last few days has been to design a minimal IDE that will make up the first prototype. The prototype isn't a release, just an experiment in compiler configuration. There is to be no Syntax Highlighting and minimal features in the 1st prototype. > > e) I'll learn from it. > > This is for sure. May be it should not be written in Ada at all, may be in Java? Away you and ... The ide's written in Java I've used have been really slow and had patchy graphics, well just crap and that was with JIT on. { If anyones looking for a fast cross platform technology check out Juice (it's really fast, whips JVM), the only drawback is they didn't do much with it and it's not well known (and needs patience and commitment); I say someone should get an Ada compiler for it. Then Juice and Ada would blow Java out the water, well out of the fabric of space and time actually. The ppl who developed it made the mistake of tying development to the Oberon Environment, but it can run in diff browsers and all that's needed is a stand alone version, so you can run and develop apps! It's a real nice fast system that could make Sun (and .NET) needing Cocodamol. } Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx 2001-07-15 3:46 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. @ 2001-07-16 11:12 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-17 13:29 ` chris.danx 2001-07-16 15:05 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison 3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-16 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw) "chris.danx" wrote: > That means there can be no use of GWindows and using GTK/Ada instead. I might > consider that, but I'm not familiar with Gtk at all, and it needs to support > accelerator keys, make plugins possible, allow dynamic menus, allow custom > controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole > thing down? Do Gtk+ support acc keys (graphical artistis likes acc. keys) yes Plugins (script-fu in gimp) yes Dynamic menus yes. Custom controls yes Gtk+ scripted NO libglade gives you an application whose GUI is stored as a xml file. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 11:12 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 13:29 ` chris.danx 2001-07-17 14:21 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2001-07-17 13:29 UTC (permalink / raw) "Stefan Skoglund" <stetson@ebox.tninet.se> wrote in message news:3B52CC1D.21CFB0B8@ebox.tninet.se... > "chris.danx" wrote: > > That means there can be no use of GWindows and using GTK/Ada instead. I might > > consider that, but I'm not familiar with Gtk at all, and it needs to support > > accelerator keys, make plugins possible, allow dynamic menus, allow custom > > controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole > > thing down? > > Do Gtk+ support acc keys (graphical artistis likes acc. keys) yes > Plugins (script-fu in gimp) yes > Dynamic menus yes. > Custom controls yes > Gtk+ scripted NO > libglade gives you an application whose GUI is stored as a xml file. Thanks, I was getting confused with tcl/tk or somthing. I've been rather busy training my Ape, Kira, to be nice to those moany villagers, but I will make a decision on Gtk soon (today or tommorrow). Thanks again, Chris Campbell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 13:29 ` chris.danx @ 2001-07-17 14:21 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 15:55 ` chris.danx 2001-07-18 19:27 ` chris.danx 0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-17 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <h3X47.42779$WS4.6503459@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx says... >I've been rather busy training my Ape, Kira, to be nice to those moany >villagers, but I will make a decision on Gtk soon (today or tommorrow). Just rub his tummy a bit, give him a big pile of food, and leave him tied up to the village store with the pink fluffy leash. :-) That should give you enough time to start reading through the user guide at http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/docs/gtkada_ug.html to see if it can do everything you need. The widget hierarchy is at http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/docs/gtkada_ug.html#SEC9 . --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 14:21 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-17 15:55 ` chris.danx 2001-07-19 20:38 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-18 19:27 ` chris.danx 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2001-07-17 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw) "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:1SX47.22269$Kf3.285163@www.newsranger.com... > In article <h3X47.42779$WS4.6503459@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx > says... > >I've been rather busy training my Ape, Kira, to be nice to those moany > >villagers, but I will make a decision on Gtk soon (today or tommorrow). > > Just rub his tummy a bit, give him a big pile of food, and leave him tied up to > the village store with the pink fluffy leash. :-) Tried that with this ape. She's got a mind of his own and wanders off even though Kira's still tied to the store (looking for fish would you believe?). Stupid ape... I'm trading her in for a tiger. He might not be smart but at least he won't wander for miles looking for fish!!! No, he'll just pick up the first villager he comes across. > That should give you enough time to start reading through the user guide at > http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/docs/gtkada_ug.html to see if it can do > everything you need. The widget hierarchy is at > http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/docs/gtkada_ug.html#SEC9 . Thanks Ted, do you know of a tutorial (I only found the ACT one and it wasn't downloadable)? Thanks Again, Chris Campbell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 15:55 ` chris.danx @ 2001-07-19 20:38 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-19 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <SeZ47.58512$B56.11546588@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx says... >Thanks Ted, do you know of a tutorial (I only found the ACT one and it wasn't >downloadable)? I believe I went through a non-Ada-specific one I found on the GTK+ website. ( http://www.gtk.org/tutorial/ , probably). That and the GTKAda user guide ought to be enough to get you started. But I have had Motif and Motif GUI-builder experience. Others without that experience might have more trouble, I really can't say. --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 14:21 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 15:55 ` chris.danx @ 2001-07-18 19:27 ` chris.danx 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2001-07-18 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:1SX47.22269$Kf3.285163@www.newsranger.com... > In article <h3X47.42779$WS4.6503459@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx > says... > >I've been rather busy training my Ape, Kira, to be nice to those moany > >villagers, but I will make a decision on Gtk soon (today or tommorrow). > > Just rub his tummy a bit, give him a big pile of food, and leave him tied up to > the village store with the pink fluffy leash. :-) Oops I was wrong. A bit more persistence and the rope of learning and it worked. Yes, yes, yes!!! Kira has the distinct glow of goodness and villagers now worship at her pen in awe of her magnificent glow! Thanks Ted, Chris Campbell > That should give you enough time to start reading through the user guide at > http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/docs/gtkada_ug.html to see if it can do > everything you need. The widget hierarchy is at > http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/docs/gtkada_ug.html#SEC9 . > > --- > T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html > home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx 2001-07-15 3:46 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-16 11:12 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-16 15:05 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 7:50 ` Emmanuel Briot 2001-07-17 22:33 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison 3 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-16 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw) The last time I looked at Gtk, my conclusion was this: "It has potential. It needs a good 'How To' book" It does work on Windows (I had some installation problems) and Unix systems, so you gain a lot in the way of portability. However, its look-and-feel is un-Windows-ish. Maybe thats a good thing - maybe not - that's a matter of perspective. Its a classic problem - if you want portability, you have to play to the least common denominator between systems. Personally, I'd like to have the portability. You may want to take a serious look at Gtk. For me (since I have to actually earn a living doing something that doesn't involve playing with things like Gnat & Gtk), I'm waiting for it to mature some more before taking another pass at it. The reason for me is that the Motif-ish style of building a GUI wasn't intuitively obvious (my world is different) and there was not a good "Let me take you step-by-step through the process of building a GUI with Gtk" manual available. I'd received advice to read up on the underlying C calls and got pointed at related documents of similar flavor. If I had the time, I suppose I could delve into it and learn enough to make it work. Maybe by now someone has written a "How To" guide for it & I should take another glance at it? I certainly wouldn't discourage you from looking it over. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "chris.danx" <chris.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:JeX37.39341$B56.8075497@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com... > > That means there can be no use of GWindows and using GTK/Ada instead. I might > consider that, but I'm not familiar with Gtk at all, and it needs to support > accelerator keys, make plugins possible, allow dynamic menus, allow custom > controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole > thing down? > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 15:05 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 7:50 ` Emmanuel Briot 2001-07-17 10:09 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 22:33 ` Stefan Skoglund 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Emmanuel Briot @ 2001-07-17 7:50 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes: > The last time I looked at Gtk, my conclusion was this: "It has potential. It > needs a good 'How To' book" And of course, being a person who really wants to develop Ada, you decided to contribute one, so that Ada could be used by more developers... I must have missed it, though. > The reason for me is that the Motif-ish style of building a GUI > wasn't intuitively obvious (my world is different) and there was not a good > "Let me take you step-by-step through the process of building a GUI with > Gtk" manual available. About the Motif-ish style: for people not completely aware of GUI programming, this means that basically your interface is built through blocks and boxes, that you embed in others boxes, and so on. This hugely facilitates the handling of resizing, since the containers themselves take care of repositionning the widgets at the right location. Now, there's also a documented widget in GtkAda, called Gtk_Fixed, that provides the windows style of programming (for the few things I know about windows), that is you specify the coordinates and sizes of the widgets. This is of course usable from the GUI builder. So the restriction Marin is speaking about doesn't seem to apply. Of course, you are on your own to manage the repositioning of widgets after the window has been resized by the user... > I'd received advice to read up on the underlying C calls and got pointed at > related documents of similar flavor. If I had the time, I suppose I could > delve into it and learn enough to make it work. Maybe by now someone has > written a "How To" guide for it & I should take another glance at it? I > certainly wouldn't discourage you from looking it over. And I would say the same thing again: there are some very good books about C programming and gtk+ programming. They fully apply to GtkAda, since basically what is needed in a howto is to describe the various containers and explain how to build an interface from there, not all the low-level details specific to Ada. The only area where things are really different is for callbacks, and the technics is fully describe in the 31 pages of the GtkAda user's guide. You should really consider contributing such a howto, if you think the existing documentation is not enough. Of course, supported users of ACT do ask questions that get answered generally very fast, so that they don't stay blocked... Emmanuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 7:50 ` Emmanuel Briot @ 2001-07-17 10:09 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 13:26 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: nicolas @ 2001-07-17 10:09 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1438 bytes --] "Emmanuel Briot" <briot@act-europe.fr> a �crit dans le message news: m3r8vg5778.fsf@lyon.act-europe.fr... > And of course, being a person who really wants to develop Ada, you decided to > contribute one, so that Ada could be used by more developers... I must have > missed it, though. <snip> >Now, there's also a documented widget in GtkAda, called Gtk_Fixed, that >provides the windows style of programming (for the few things I know about >windows), More likely you missed what Marin said just a few lines below : "(since I have to actually earn a living doing something that doesn't involve playing with things like Gnat & Gtk)" Honestly I don't think you can have the slightest hope to expand (and even maintain) Ada use, if you are not really competitive on Win32 platform whatever you think about it. That means that compiler vendors must provide everything so that potential users won't see any regression or any increased complexity when they try Ada for the first time. More than that, they must really see benefits. It includes debuggers, IDE, GUI (as intuitive and easy for Windows developpers, as what they are used to) I have no illusion about the feelings of a programmer coming to Ada and Java for the first time, and tries to build a basic application in both languages. You cannot rely only on people who are already convinced that they have to use Ada (Especially if they are not building Win32 applications) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 10:09 ` nicolas @ 2001-07-17 13:26 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 15:06 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 17:58 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3182 bytes --] Well, its not *my* product and I don't earn a living directly or indirectly from it so I'm more on the "customer" side of things. It kind of comes down to this: If I'm trying to build a GUI, I have alternatives as to what tools are available to do that job. If someone has a GUI builder out there that is well documented and includes all the info I need to use it versus (maybe a perfectly wonderful) tool that "hides its light under a bushel basket" by not having all the info one needs to effectively use it, which way do you think I'm likely to go? I don't mean to criticise the guys building GtkAda and say that their tool is doodoo. I've driven the tool enough to know that it does seem to work and does provide a means of building GUIs that can be used on different platforms. That's an achievement. However, as an "Art Critic" I'm picking on what I perceive to be a certain lack of documentation that I believe is needed to explain how to use the tool. I think the developers should take that in the spirit in which it is offered - a helpful criticism that might just serve to making a better & more successful product. I've done GUI building on the Windows platform and you're right about wanting things to look familiar. I'm willing to accept that the GtkAda GUI builder operates on different concepts and that I would have to learn how to develop using those concepts. That's where I'm saying there is a missing layer of documentation. If a toolmaker wants to build something that operates differently from what the end-user is used to seeing, maybe that is a good thing, but to do so implies that the toolmaker is going to have to help the customer transition to the new paradigm. Otherwise, we stick to what we know... :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "nicolas" <n.brunot@cadwin.com> wrote in message news:9j12ic$bvi$1@s1.read.news.oleane.net... > "Emmanuel Briot" <briot@act-europe.fr> a �crit dans le message news: > m3r8vg5778.fsf@lyon.act-europe.fr... > > > More likely you missed what Marin said just a few lines below : > "(since I have to actually earn a living doing something that doesn't > involve playing with things like Gnat & Gtk)" > > Honestly I don't think you can have the slightest hope to expand (and even > maintain) Ada use, > if you are not really competitive on Win32 platform whatever you think about > it. > That means that compiler vendors must provide everything so that potential > users won't see any regression or any increased complexity when they try Ada > for the first time. > More than that, they must really see benefits. > It includes debuggers, IDE, GUI (as intuitive and easy for Windows > developpers, as what they are used to) > > I have no illusion about the feelings of a programmer coming to Ada and Java > for the first time, > and tries to build a basic application in both languages. > You cannot rely only on people who are already convinced that they have to > use Ada (Especially if they are not building Win32 applications) > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 13:26 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 15:06 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 15:49 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 17:58 ` Pascal Obry 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: nicolas @ 2001-07-17 15:06 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2217 bytes --] "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> a �crit dans le message news: 9j1ee8$258$1@nh.pace.co.uk... > Well, its not *my* product and I don't earn a living directly or indirectly > from it so I'm more on the "customer" side of things. Well, I just meant that if compiler vendors are waiting for their potential customers to do their job, they'd better not be in a hurry :-) Especially when they say more or less : "You want to use Ada ? You should be ashamed not contributing to tools that everybody expects to come with a decent compiler ..." > to this: If I'm trying to build a GUI, I have alternatives as to what tools > are available to do that job. If someone has a GUI builder out there that is > well documented and includes all the info I need to use it versus (maybe a > perfectly wonderful) tool that "hides its light under a bushel basket" by > not having all the info one needs to effectively use it, which way do you > think I'm likely to go? I guess we agree that you are likely to go the same way every sensible person would go ... > I've done GUI building on the Windows platform and you're right about > wanting things to look familiar. I'm willing to accept that the GtkAda GUI > builder operates on different concepts and that I would have to learn how to > develop using those concepts. That's where I'm saying there is a missing > layer of documentation. If a toolmaker wants to build something that > operates differently from what the end-user is used to seeing, maybe that is > a good thing, but to do so implies that the toolmaker is going to have to > help the customer transition to the new paradigm. Otherwise, we stick to > what we know... :-) Well, on that specific point, Win32 programming is such a standard, that I'm not sure that there is any choice. It's up to Ada vendors to provide something natural and intuitive for Win32 programmers if they want to survive. Or at least something natural and intuitive to Java programmers who find almost everything coming with their compiler. Why trying to promote others concepts than those which satisfy almost everybody ? After all, Ada is about standards, reuse, and not invent the wheel again every day. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 15:06 ` nicolas @ 2001-07-17 15:49 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 22:42 ` Stefan Skoglund 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Win32 programming *is* a standard of sorts that is widely used - millions of people have it & use it daily. Hence ignoring that market is not wise. But remember that the various flavors of Unix are *also* a kind of a standard that is used by millions of people daily. Operating in that environment is very important as well. Ada is (at least in part) about standards *and* portability. Its nice to be able to build code on one machine and have it compile/run on another machine with a very different architecture. To this end, I applaud GtkAda - it is trying to provide a common GUI building environment across two very different platforms & from what I gather is succeeding at that. It is hard to merge the two systems without settling on *some* style that is going to clash with the other style. Is it wise to adopt the Unix/Motif look-&-feel and try to force Windows into that mode? Or should the Windows L&F have been forced onto the Unix side? Take your pick - some substantial part of the computer programming & using weorld is going to be unhappy. I guess that since the GtkAda started from the Gtk/Unix world, the choice got made to move that style to the Windows side. Should they have pitched the style & started fresh? They might not have had a product at all if they did. Certainly, they'd face competition from Claw and others. It might have become a "me too!" product that had no special niche. I won't gripe about GtkAda not fitting the paradigm I'm used to. I'd consider it as a potential tool if a) I was developing in Ada and b) I needed portability between Unix & Windows. (If I was Windows only, I'd want something that did the L&F of Windows rather than a compromise.) One could also evaluate the possibility of using Ada and Java to produce systems that were portable - and even Internet ready, so there are alternatives. The decision would come down to a comparison of environments & features & price and so on. The minute you remove constraint A (develop in Ada) the choices expand a lot. Hence if the objective is to build apps that are portable between Unix and Windows, GtkAda has to stack up favorably against a lot of other players. So the question for the developers is "What market(s) are you shooting for and how do you stack up against the competitors in that market?" MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "nicolas" <n.brunot@cadwin.com> wrote in message news:%vY47.3041$Aw2.4266090@nnrp6.proxad.net... > > Well, on that specific point, Win32 programming is such a standard, that I'm > not sure that there is any choice. > It's up to Ada vendors to provide something natural and intuitive for Win32 > programmers if they want to survive. > Or at least something natural and intuitive to Java programmers who find > almost everything coming with their compiler. > Why trying to promote others concepts than those which satisfy almost > everybody ? > After all, Ada is about standards, reuse, and not invent the wheel again > every day. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 15:49 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 22:42 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 8:13 ` nicolas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > with a very different architecture. To this end, I applaud GtkAda - it is > trying to provide a common GUI building environment across two very > different platforms & from what I gather is succeeding at that. It is hard > to merge the two systems without settling on *some* style that is going to GtkAda depends on Gtk+ which really is the toolkit in the GIMP project so well a Ada program written with the help of GtkAda could easily look like the Gimp. > and try to force Windows into that mode? Or should the Windows L&F have been > forced onto the Unix side? Take your pick - some substantial part of the > computer programming & using weorld is going to be unhappy. Using the windows look&feel in the GIMP wouldn't work !! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 22:42 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-18 8:13 ` nicolas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: nicolas @ 2001-07-18 8:13 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 878 bytes --] "Stefan Skoglund" <stetson@ebox.tninet.se> a �crit dans le message news: 3B54BF44.646290DC@ebox.tninet.se... > Using the windows look&feel in the GIMP wouldn't work !! Is there a technical reason for that ? We have a proprietary GUI originally developped for DOS It was then ported to Unix And finally to Windows when it came to evidence that in our market every DOS user and 99% of unix users switched to Windows. Originally it was a Motif look GUI. A few years ago we changed the look to a Windows look GUI There was some strong debate about that, but a few weeks after the change, nobody (us internally as well as customers) would even think in coming back to Motif I have a RH 7.0 where a lot of things have a Windows look. When you use swing, you have a choice, but you have a Windows look By the way, are you sure it is very useful to re-invent swing again ? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 13:26 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 15:06 ` nicolas @ 2001-07-17 17:58 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-17 18:58 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-17 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes: > Well, its not *my* product and I don't earn a living directly or indirectly > from it so I'm more on the "customer" side of things. It kind of comes down Well this is an Open Source project. In a sense this is OUR product. You can build nice documentation for it, add some features that will make it the best GUI builder in the world... and sell it if you like or sell you support or whatever. Of course you'll need to also distribute the sources. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 17:58 ` Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-17 18:58 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 22:52 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 6:41 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Still sounds suspiciously like someone trying to get me to work for free. :-) If I had a business - or worked for one - in which GtkAda or some similar products were part of the end product, I could see an argument for contributing to the project. The "Rising Tide Lifts All Boats" argument might be one reason I'd want to extend the basic product then let my competitors have the enhancements. I might see a case where I sell the enhancements for $$$ and maybe not make them available to my competitors. (In this case, we're talking about a manual - not software - so I'm some kind of value-added repackager.) If my company were already in the process of utilizing this tool, I again might (I stress, "might") find some reason as a customer why it is to my benefit to make some enhancements and make those enhancements available to the folks who sold me the tool - or the general public. A larger user community might have some advantage to me, so providing enhancements may encourage more use & I might gain from that. Maybe. (Why not just buy a tool for a few hundred bucks that already has what I need - including the large user community? A developer's time is *very* expensive in comparison.) But if I'm just a part-time, home-brew, hacker, I don't see much advantage to it. I develop some enhancements as a "Labor of Love" and give it away so that some for-profit company can use it to generate more revenue? How do I gain? Why not just keep it for myself? Likewise, if my company does not have some kind of vested interest in the toolset and is just shopping around for a toolset to get some job done, where is there an incentive for me to do this? If my company wanted to be a tool-building company, presumably we'd have done that already. If we just have some job to do, we want to do it with our efforts concentrated on the job - not tool building. Hence, we go select some tool that will do the job and move on. If the tool doesn't do 100% of what we want, we evaluate other tools to see how close we can get. If we find something that does 100% of what we want, we might look at the price tag and make the classic "Make Or Buy" decision - guess which way that is likely to go... So unless I absolutely can't live without *this* tool and it absolutely needs *this* enhancement and I can't pay someone to make the enhancement less that what it would cost me to do it myself, where is the incentive for me to enhance it? And if I do, where is the incentive to share it? I guess I just don't see much advantage to doing that sort of work unless I stand to gain in some way. How is it I gain if I am not either a tool vendor or don't have a choice about toolsets and need some enhancement? I think that is part of the problem with the GPL. It won't breed developers forever because it doesn't incentivize them much. Sooner or later even computer geeks will catch on. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:uzoa3phda.fsf@wanadoo.fr... > > Well this is an Open Source project. In a sense this is OUR product. You can > build nice documentation for it, add some features that will make it the best > GUI builder in the world... and sell it if you like or sell you support or > whatever. Of course you'll need to also distribute the sources. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 18:58 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-17 22:52 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 6:41 ` Pascal Obry 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > But if I'm just a part-time, home-brew, hacker, I don't see much advantage > to it. I develop some enhancements as a "Labor of Love" and give it away so > that some for-profit company can use it to generate more revenue? How do I > gain? Why not just keep it for myself? Because some other guys could do some enhancements to your work and if he/she is a nice guy and not a crook send his enhancements to YOU. > it would cost me to do it myself, where is the incentive for me to enhance > it? And if I do, where is the incentive to share it? The reasons to contribute your enhancements to some community written tool is to lessen your own maintenance burden. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 18:58 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 22:52 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-18 6:41 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-18 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-18 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes: > Still sounds suspiciously like someone trying to get me to work for free. > :-) Ok if you need a better reason. I think that Ada is not that visible in the software world. The work we can put together (all of us) are to make Ada more visible, more accepted and (we can dream) have Ada sometime be the most popular language :) Of course I'm not completly stupid, I don't see that this comming year but next year :-) Just look five years ago, the Ada world was not the same at all and one reason is that there is many good piece of GPL code under Ada. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 6:41 ` Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-18 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 16:33 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-19 23:27 ` Stefan Skoglund 0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-18 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) I think we agree wholeheartedly on the objective you outlined. We both want to see Ada accepted at a greater level than it is. I think we both agree that the presence of lots of Ada code available for development serves this goal. I think we also both agree that your garden variety hacker, small business, internal corporate developer, etc. ought to be able to get the source, use it in their software, modify it as needed, etc. and not have to pay a royalty. (That's what will get Ada accepted for various forms of internal development.) Where I think we part company (correct me if I'm wrong) is that I believe a different license is possible/desirable that secures some financial rights for the authors of a work in the event that someone takes their work & uses it for financial gain. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be favoring the GPL which basically does not secure those rights - or at least has not dealt with that question. I might be willing to contribute to some community accessible code, but I'd like to think that if I'm spending time on it that there is some $$$ in it for me if someone else is going to take my work and make $$$ for themselves with it. Otherwise, it seems I'm just making a gift to "The Community" of my time and talent. Granted, I may receive other people's gifts to the community by way of picking up their changes, but I think that from a cost/benefit analysis in most cases, I may be better off simply purchasing what I want rather than paying for it with sweat equity. (My time is worth a considerable amount of money when compared to the cost of many commercially available products.) Or I could simply take and never give back and turn a hard heart towards the community contributors when they cry "Unfair!" :-) (Hint: That's why currency and markets and free enterprise and trade were invented in the first place! :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:uu20an3i8.fsf@wanadoo.fr... > > Ok if you need a better reason. I think that Ada is not that visible in the > software world. The work we can put together (all of us) are to make Ada more > visible, more accepted and (we can dream) have Ada sometime be the most > popular language :) Of course I'm not completly stupid, I don't see that this > comming year but next year :-) > > Just look five years ago, the Ada world was not the same at all and one reason > is that there is many good piece of GPL code under Ada. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 14:12 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-18 16:33 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-18 17:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-19 23:27 ` Stefan Skoglund 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-18 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes: > I think we agree wholeheartedly on the objective you outlined. We both want > to see Ada accepted at a greater level than it is. I think we both agree > that the presence of lots of Ada code available for development serves this > goal. I think we also both agree that your garden variety hacker, small > business, internal corporate developer, etc. ought to be able to get the > source, use it in their software, modify it as needed, etc. and not have to > pay a royalty. (That's what will get Ada accepted for various forms of > internal development.) Where I think we part company (correct me if I'm > wrong) is that I believe a different license is possible/desirable that > secures some financial rights for the authors of a work in the event that > someone takes their work & uses it for financial gain. If I understand you > correctly, you seem to be favoring the GPL which basically does not secure > those rights - or at least has not dealt with that question. Yep. Because everything I build is based on the GPL license. All my work would not be possible without GNAT for example. I will not like to have to buy an Ada compiler for my home/hobby job ! So yes I favor the GPL because my work is based on plenty of other GPL softwares. Piece by piece we can as hobbyist build very nice software. Today with Linux, GNAT and AWS, I can build some very nice Web server. And I do not count all Ada components and library I use. All this will not be possible if I had to pay some compagnies to be able to use Linux, GNAT and some Ada components. Now, this is certainly not a problem for a company where buying a software and/or support for it is just the right things to do. I would not start a project in my company without some kind of support. But Pascal Obry at home don't want to spent some hundred of $ to have the right to build and distribute a software. > I might be willing to contribute to some community accessible code, but I'd > like to think that if I'm spending time on it that there is some $$$ in it > for me if someone else is going to take my work and make $$$ for themselves > with it. Don't you have some piece of code in your hard disc that you could share ? As I said in my previous message, I don't write software only for the community but just to learn something or for the fun :) For example AWS has started because I wanted to understand how the HTTP protocol was working... and some time after... well you know the story :) Idem for SMTP, POSIX... Anyway, let me just add something. I find the Ada community to be less active in the Open Source movement. I don't say it is bad or good, just that it seems to me that the C/C++, Java, Eiffel, Perl... communities are doing far more in this area. I'll just add, let's talk about $$$ when Ada will be on the right tracks. I'm convinced that without GNU/Ada Ada will be just invisible today, used only in some very small niche. Just my 2 cents, Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 16:33 ` Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-18 17:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 18:35 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-18 19:20 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-18 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw) "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:upuaymc2i.fsf@wanadoo.fr... > > Yep. Because everything I build is based on the GPL license. All my work would > not be possible without GNAT for example. I will not like to have to buy an > Ada compiler for my home/hobby job ! > Maybe you missed my point. I'm not talking about charging you to use the software as a home/hobbyist. Nor even if you are at work developing something for in-house use. I'm interested if you take some of my code and use it to build "PascalSoft Spreadsheet" (or similar) and start selling it for $29.95 on the open market. That's when I think you would owe me some $$$ for my contribution to your commercial success. Check out the Ada Developers Cooperative Licence (ADCL) that Dr. Leif has written about in Ada Letters - article referenced somewhere in this newsgroup recently. I think you would see that the basic idea is to let software be open source and allow it to be used widely, but insisting on some kind of royalty if money starts changing hands. > > Don't you have some piece of code in your hard disc that you could share ? Yes. Go visit my web site and look over what is there. (http://www.mcondic.com/) I think you will find that I can be very easy with licensing terms if you decide you want to do something commercial with the software I put there. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 17:12 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-18 18:35 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-18 19:30 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 19:20 ` Pascal Obry 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-18 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <9j4g2a$802$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says... > >Maybe you missed my point. I'm not talking about charging you to use the >software as a home/hobbyist. Nor even if you are at work developing >something for in-house use. I'm interested if you take some of my code and >use it to build "PascalSoft Spreadsheet" (or similar) and start selling it >for $29.95 on the open market. That's when I think you would owe me some $$$ >for my contribution to your commercial success. If that bugs you, GPL your software (with no GMGPL-style excemptions). Then when someone does that kind of thing, they will have to GPL it, which will give you (and everyone else) free access to it. They can still sell it for $30, but that has to be covering the convenience of having it on CD (perhaps with hardcopy docs and instructions). I generally don't want to do that with my stuff, because I want to be able to use it myself freely at work. >Check out the Ada Developers Cooperative Licence (ADCL) that Dr. Leif has >written about in Ada Letters - article referenced somewhere in this >newsgroup recently. I think you would see that the basic idea is to let >software be open source and allow it to be used widely, but insisting on >some kind of royalty if money starts changing hands. I'd like to see it (I don't suppose its online anywhere?). But if it discriminates against certian types of users, or requires any kind of royalty for any distribution of it, it is *not* OpenSource (according at least points 1 and 6 in the defintion - http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.html ). --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 18:35 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-18 19:30 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-20 15:41 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-18 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw) http://www.acm.org/sigada/ada_letters/March1999.html has an abstract of the article. However, you'd need to contact Dr. Leif for the original. He posted his address elsewhere in the group: rleif@rleif.com As for when something is open source and when it isn't, I guess you could get into definitional wars. If there is such a thing as "OpenSource(tm)" then the owner of the (tm) can define it any way they like and maybe that excludes the ADCL. However, from my reading of the ADCL and my maybe more "broad" interpretation of the meaning of "open source" I think you still have that. In some ways, its more "open" because AFAIK, it doesn't require that use of ADCL software automatically makes the using software ADCL - no "infection". (Maybe you'd consider that "bad" - I'd look at it as making the software more generally useful.) Anyway, I don't think that would stop you from using your code at work any more than the GPL would stop you. Not unless you are making a product that is going to be sold to someone. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:%Fk57.23889$Kf3.323037@www.newsranger.com... > > > I'd like to see it (I don't suppose its online anywhere?). But if it > discriminates against certian types of users, or requires any kind of royalty > for any distribution of it, it is *not* OpenSource (according at least points 1 > and 6 in the defintion - http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.html ). > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 19:30 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-20 15:41 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-20 17:40 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-20 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <9j4o47$b5a$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says... >get into definitional wars. If there is such a thing as "OpenSource(tm)" >then the owner of the (tm) can define it any way they like and maybe that >excludes the ADCL. However, from my reading of the ADCL and my maybe more They tried to do just that right after the term was coined. However, apparently OpenSource is too generic of a term to trademark. But this is as close to official as you can get. You aren't really OpenSource unless you conform to that defintion, and saying you are is just going to bring down a whole lot of heat on yourself (as several companies have already found out). --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-20 15:41 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-20 17:40 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-20 20:18 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-20 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Well then, lets coin whatever different terms we like for it - just so we don't run afoul of the OpenSource Cops. :-) The way I see it, there are two different things going on here. One is the issue of making source code available so that it can be used, studied, modified and extended. The other is the assignment of rights to one or more parties in the process. On the one hand, I'm in favor of making source widely available. On the other hand, I'm against the idea of a) signing my rights away when I distribute source for some subsystem and b) attempting to force someone else to sign their rights away just because they want to use my subsystem in their (sub)system. If I put useful code out in some forum, I'd like for you to be able to use it in building your home or work projects. I'd like to be sure that if you give someone else your project that you include with that (at minimum) the source that I gave you - without forcing you to give out your source code if that is your choice. If you *change* my source (as opposed to simply calling it or extending it - as in class extension {think of separate files versus changing my files}) that you make those changes available to me and anyone else that you may have given the code to. All of this serves to get my source code into as many hands as possible and to be used with the minimal of restrictions that might discourage anyone from wanting to use it. If we can't call this OpenSource, then let's call it AvailableSource. The part two of this contraption is the business of rights and remuneration. If you take my work and use it in your work *and* sell your work for money, it seems fair to me that I should get some part of that sale since part of the product is the fruit of my labor. I may choose to make that dolar figure high, low or even non-existant, but the right exists and I'd prefer not to arbitrarily give it away just by giving you the source code. Its your choice to decide if it is worth it to you to pay me the royalty I ask in order to get some percentage of your product out the door quicker, better, cheaper, etc., or if the cost is too steep to justify the use. (We can always haggle over price!) Granted, there are problems with this model on all sorts of fronts. For one thing, if you use my work in your business and don't resell it, I'm still subsidizing your business. (If you didn't have to write it or buy it elsewhere, this saves you expenses you'd otherwise have to pay for with revenue.) For another thing, you can always get creative in terms of accounting and how you choose to market your end product. You may charge a bundle for services and nothing (or nearly nothing) for the software - in which case, I again lose out. (I hear that in Salt Lake City the booze laws are so restrictive that some bars give away liquor with the purchase of a soft-drink. Hence you pay for the coke and the rum is free and the laws regarding sale of rum don't apply.) But even if the system isn't perfect, I think it is still an interesting concept. It promotes the development of generally available source code because the writers stand at least *some* chance of gaining from making useful code available. Even though it isn't 100% equitable, it reduces the worst inequities considerably. It recognizes the symbiotic relationship between the writer and the value-added user by exchanging free (monetary-free) use of the software for wider circulation. And you still have source available for all the stuff circulating this way. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:miY57.932$ar1.3812@www.newsranger.com... > > They tried to do just that right after the term was coined. However, apparently > OpenSource is too generic of a term to trademark. But this is as close to > official as you can get. You aren't really OpenSource unless you conform t o that > defintion, and saying you are is just going to bring down a whole lot of heat on > yourself (as several companies have already found out). > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-20 17:40 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-20 20:18 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-20 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <9j9qer$aek$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says... > >Well then, lets coin whatever different terms we like for it - just so we >don't run afoul of the OpenSource Cops. :-) .. >If we can't call this OpenSource, then let's call it AvailableSource. How about "SharedSource"? That's the term Microsoft is using. :-) --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 17:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 18:35 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-18 19:20 ` Pascal Obry 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-18 19:20 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com> writes: > "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message > news:upuaymc2i.fsf@wanadoo.fr... > > > > Yep. Because everything I build is based on the GPL license. All my work > would > > not be possible without GNAT for example. I will not like to have to buy > an > > Ada compiler for my home/hobby job ! > > > Maybe you missed my point. I'm not talking about charging you to use the > software as a home/hobbyist. Nor even if you are at work developing > something for in-house use. I'm interested if you take some of my code and > use it to build "PascalSoft Spreadsheet" (or similar) and start selling it > for $29.95 on the open market. That's when I think you would owe me some $$$ > for my contribution to your commercial success. Not sure I missed the point. This is theorical, do we have a single example where somebody have charged something for a tool/soft he has done nothing for in the GPL world. And in anycase if your software if GPL (we are talking about GPL software here) then this guys needs also to have his soft distributed with sources. And if the sources is identical I just can't see why somebody will buy something that is plain free "one-click" away ! Now if he has done something nice with your GPL code, of course he can distribute and sell it... but you can do the same things with any piece of GPL code. The market will anyway kill any abuse from the start! I mean here a contribution to some code that just serve nothing. All in all I understand your point, and I agree about your expectations, it is just that I do not see the world with the same glasses... I'm ready to play this game (giving for free) as long as all my life is not based on this principle :) I of course get payed for my day job :) > Check out the Ada Developers Cooperative Licence (ADCL) that Dr. Leif has I'll have a look when I'll have some time. > > Don't you have some piece of code in your hard disc that you could share ? > > Yes. Go visit my web site and look over what is there. I know, I already had a look at your homepage. This was more a general comment nothing against you. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 16:33 ` Pascal Obry @ 2001-07-19 23:27 ` Stefan Skoglund 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-19 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > secures some financial rights for the authors of a work in the event that > someone takes their work & uses it for financial gain. If I understand you > correctly, you seem to be favoring the GPL which basically does not secure > those rights - or at least has not dealt with that question. I will reiterate what the GPL says in this case: if someone uses some GPL:ed code in his/her/their product and distributes it with an license incompatible with the GPL that guy is a THIEF and should go to jail for that. They can distribute it to their customers under the GPL and still charge money but their customers can request and must receive the source of said sw. The customers can also distribute the sw by themselves too. but the company still distributes the sw with a Gnu Public License. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 15:05 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 7:50 ` Emmanuel Briot @ 2001-07-17 22:33 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 14:17 ` Marin David Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > The last time I looked at Gtk, my conclusion was this: "It has potential. It > needs a good 'How To' book" http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/ (for the book.tar.gz file) http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/ggad.html (directly) Written by Havoc for the GNOME project. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 22:33 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-18 14:17 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-18 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Thanks for the links. This may be helpful in some ways. A cursory inspection though seems to indicate that this documentation is related to some other parts of the Gtk tools. I was specifically interested in the GtkAda GUI building program and I don't think this document addresses that. (I probably was unclear and inaccurate in the original post) However, I will go look it over more thoroughly. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Stefan Skoglund" <stetson@ebox.tninet.se> wrote in message news:3B54BD52.B4A5C83E@ebox.tninet.se... > > http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/ (for the book.tar.gz file) > http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/ggad.html (directly) > > Written by Havoc for the GNOME project. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2001-07-16 15:05 ` Marin David Condic @ 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-16 18:17 ` Al Christians ` (6 more replies) 3 siblings, 7 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-16 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <JeX37.39341$B56.8075497@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx says... >controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole >thing down? No, you are probably thinking of TK. Gtk is written in C and has a C interface. Its a rather nice toolkit too. The only thing I'd really like to see that it doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows users, you'd probably be better off using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably doesn't have an equivalent for *everything*. --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-16 18:17 ` Al Christians 2001-07-16 18:42 ` Ed Falis 2001-07-16 18:28 ` Mark Lundquist ` (5 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Al Christians @ 2001-07-16 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > > In article <JeX37.39341$B56.8075497@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx > says... > >controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole > >thing down? > > No, you are probably thinking of TK. Gtk is written in C and has a C interface. > Its a rather nice toolkit too. The only thing I'd really like to see that it > doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. > But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows > users, you'd probably be better off using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably > doesn't have an equivalent for *everything*. > I have the idea that it is expected that GNAT will soon (whatever that means, say over the next couple of years) be more compatible with the other gcc implementations, in particular the c++ compiler. Will that make it easier for Ada code compiled by GNAT to interoperate with C++ gui code (eg wxWindows and/or fltk)? If that was possible, I would suggest that it might be better to try to promote Ada as a powerful back-end engine, and not get into one of these 10-year gui toolkit projects (look at how long wxWindows has been developing, eg). In a good gui development system, maybe the developer doesn't have a lot of need to look at the gui code and doesn't care what kind of language it's in. Graphical programming (graphically connecting UI the rest of the program) as in IBM Visual Age might be fine. So might XML. Who cares where it goes from there? An Ada IDE with gui builder could build a UI in c++ for one of the c++ toolkits and hide the c++ so that the developer would not normally see it. There is some kind of gui spaghetti that develops when one starts writing too much code in the middle of gui classes. An IDE that prevented this by forcing separation of UI and implementation could be advantageous. Al ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 18:17 ` Al Christians @ 2001-07-16 18:42 ` Ed Falis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Ed Falis @ 2001-07-16 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Al Christians wrote:An Ada IDE with gui builder could build a UI in c++ for one of the c++ > toolkits and hide the c++ so that the developer would not normally > see it. There is some kind of gui spaghetti that develops when one > starts writing too much code in the middle of gui classes. An IDE that > prevented this by forcing separation of UI and implementation could be > advantageous. > > Al GtkAda already works with the GTK+ "glade" GUI builder, with a choice of output languages for source code, including Ada 95. As far as windows look-and-feel goes, there's a "redmond" GTK+ theme you can install on your machine that goes a good bit of the way there. - Ed ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-16 18:17 ` Al Christians @ 2001-07-16 18:28 ` Mark Lundquist 2001-07-17 7:42 ` Emmanuel Briot ` (4 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Mark Lundquist @ 2001-07-16 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw) "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:K4F47.21102$Kf3.266366@www.newsranger.com... > In article <JeX37.39341$B56.8075497@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx > says... > >controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the whole > >thing down? > > No, you are probably thinking of TK. Gtk is written in C and has a C interface. And just to clarify, there is no relationship between Tk and Gtk, beyond the common letters in the names! -- mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-16 18:17 ` Al Christians 2001-07-16 18:28 ` Mark Lundquist @ 2001-07-17 7:42 ` Emmanuel Briot 2001-07-17 14:36 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-17 7:54 ` Tor Fredrik Aas ` (3 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Emmanuel Briot @ 2001-07-17 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes: > No, you are probably thinking of TK. Gtk is written in C and has a C interface. > Its a rather nice toolkit too. The only thing I'd really like to see that it > doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. > But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows > users, you'd probably be better off using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably > doesn't have an equivalent for *everything*. I'm in no way a UIL expert, but Gtk has something similar, based on XML. You can dynamically load an interface written in XML. There's even a GUI builder to generate the XML for you. The only potential problem is for callbacks, since you need to actually write them yourself, but then in a compiled language I don't see how it would work. Any idea welcome. Emmanuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* RE: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 7:42 ` Emmanuel Briot @ 2001-07-17 14:36 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. @ 2001-07-17 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada From: Bob Leif To: Emmanuel Briot et al. Are you sure that you want callbacks? Could we use Ada tasks and protected types. If necessary, you could expand your XML server. -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of Emmanuel Briot Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 12:43 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: An Ada IDE and discussions Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes: > No, you are probably thinking of TK. Gtk is written in C and has a C interface. > Its a rather nice toolkit too. The only thing I'd really like to see that it > doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. > But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows > users, you'd probably be better off using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably > doesn't have an equivalent for *everything*. I'm in no way a UIL expert, but Gtk has something similar, based on XML. You can dynamically load an interface written in XML. There's even a GUI builder to generate the XML for you. The only potential problem is for callbacks, since you need to actually write them yourself, but then in a compiled language I don't see how it would work. Any idea welcome. Emmanuel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2001-07-17 7:42 ` Emmanuel Briot @ 2001-07-17 7:54 ` Tor Fredrik Aas 2001-07-17 13:33 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 22:55 ` Stefan Skoglund ` (2 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Tor Fredrik Aas @ 2001-07-17 7:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes: >... > doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. > But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows >... But is has, GTK has glade for dynamic loadable interface descriptions. A underlying XML based format, even has a nice graphical dialog editor ( named glade, oddly enough ). Loading of dialogs is done through libglade - you should read the documentation that comes with libglade for more on this. There is even a nice book for en introduction to GTK named "Developing Linux applications with GTK and GLIB" or something like that. This is purely C, but it should tranfer quite easy to ada I would guess, but then I have never used GtkAda ( might do that someday since I am forced to do some ada work right now). -- Tor Fredrik Aas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 7:54 ` Tor Fredrik Aas @ 2001-07-17 13:33 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 17:51 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-17 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <v7telrgm1nf.fsf_-_@sun234.fof.kog.no>, Tor Fredrik Aas says... > >Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes: > >> doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like >> UIL. But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to >But is has, GTK has glade for dynamic loadable interface descriptions. A >underlying XML based format, even has a nice graphical dialog editor ( named >glade, oddly enough ). When last I looked at it, I thought Glade created files which then got translated into source code so that they can compiled and linked into the application (after editing to add in any callback code). That's not even close to the same thing. --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 13:33 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-17 17:51 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 23:00 ` Stefan Skoglund 0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-17 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <X8X47.22203$Kf3.282197@www.newsranger.com>, Ted Dennison says... > >In article <v7telrgm1nf.fsf_-_@sun234.fof.kog.no>, Tor Fredrik Aas says... >> >>But is has, GTK has glade for dynamic loadable interface descriptions. A >>underlying XML based format, even has a nice graphical dialog editor ( named >>glade, oddly enough ). > > >When last I looked at it, I thought Glade created files which then got >translated into source code so that they can compiled and linked into the >application (after editing to add in any callback code). That's not even close >to the same thing. While finding the link for someone else, I took the oppertunity to glance at this part of the GTKAda UG. There is indeed a library (libglade) that you can use to parse those files and load the appropriate widgets at runtime. UIL actually has its own compiler to get the parsing out of runtime, but this is pretty close. Its a shame I don't currently have a good excuse for trying it out... --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-17 17:51 ` Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-17 23:00 ` Stefan Skoglund 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 23:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > >application (after editing to add in any callback code). That's not even close > >to the same thing. > > While finding the link for someone else, I took the oppertunity to glance at > this part of the GTKAda UG. There is indeed a library (libglade) that you can > use to parse those files and load the appropriate widgets at runtime. UIL > actually has its own compiler to get the parsing out of runtime, but this is > pretty close. Its a shame I don't currently have a good excuse for trying it > out... Pick up the current gnumeric and look on glade/libglade in action (you need a lot of cruft :-) ) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2001-07-17 7:54 ` Tor Fredrik Aas @ 2001-07-17 22:55 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-17 22:56 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 16:10 ` McDoobie 6 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. > But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows > users, you'd probably be better off using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably In the gnome project they uses glade (gtk+ ui dev tool) to generate xml files which describes the application. GNUmeric is written with the help of {lib}glade. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2001-07-17 22:55 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 22:56 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 16:10 ` McDoobie 6 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-17 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface definition language, like UIL. > But if you are set on something that will be intuitively familiar to Windows > users, you'd probably be better off using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably > doesn't have an equivalent for *everything*. Check out http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/gnome-glade/index.html?dwzone=linux Howto use libglade and glade in a project. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 2001-07-17 22:56 ` Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-18 16:10 ` McDoobie 2001-07-19 23:41 ` Stefan Skoglund 6 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread From: McDoobie @ 2001-07-18 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <K4F47.21102$Kf3.266366@www.newsranger.com>, Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> wrote: > In article <JeX37.39341$B56.8075497@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, > chris.danx says... >>controls to be created, and more. Also is Gtk not scripted, slowing the >>whole thing down? > > No, you are probably thinking of TK. Gtk is written in C and has a C > interface. Its a rather nice toolkit too. The only thing I'd really like > to see that it doesn't have is some kind of loadable interface > definition language, like UIL. But if you are set on something that will > be intuitively familiar to Windows users, you'd probably be better off > using the base Windows UI, as Gtk probably doesn't have an equivalent > for *everything*. The Mozilla project has developed XUL, which seems to fit your description of a UIL nicely. Another nice feature of XUL is that it's implementation independant. As long as 'whatever' has XUL support, it'll work. Theres also the Gtk .rc files, but those dont really fit the definital of a UIL. McDoobie chris@dont.spam.me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-18 16:10 ` McDoobie @ 2001-07-19 23:41 ` Stefan Skoglund 0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Stefan Skoglund @ 2001-07-19 23:41 UTC (permalink / raw) McDoobie wrote: > Theres also the Gtk .rc files, but those dont really fit the definital of a UIL. They are really to support customization of the Gtk+ gui. It you want to use different fonts for different types of buttons you do it thru a modificaton to your .gtkrc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: An Ada IDE and discussions 2001-07-13 23:28 ` An Ada IDE and discussions chris.danx 2001-07-14 7:08 ` Michael Erdmann @ 2001-07-16 16:52 ` Ted Dennison 1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-07-16 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <ytL37.37665$B56.7588180@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, chris.danx says... >I'm doing this IDE because Well certianly don't let blowhards like myself deter you from writing this. If its got you exited enough to do it, go for it. Anyway, it'd be good to point newbies to. Emacs will always be there when they are ready to do real work. ;-) --- T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-07-24 2:54 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 53+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2001-07-17 20:51 An Ada IDE and discussions Beard, Frank -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2001-07-20 16:50 Beard, Frank 2001-07-23 8:26 ` nicolas 2001-07-24 2:54 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG 2001-07-10 2:30 "is ada dead?" A challenge for all of us? Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-10 10:41 ` Michael Erdmann 2001-07-11 6:42 ` McDoobie 2001-07-11 14:53 ` chris.danx [not found] ` <Qn_27.15449$Kf3.182453@www.newsranger.com> [not found] ` <md837.333699$p33.6738979@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com> [not found] ` <f49tktghbv140bg63a292jul1h940pj5pt@4ax.com> 2001-07-13 23:28 ` An Ada IDE and discussions chris.danx 2001-07-14 7:08 ` Michael Erdmann 2001-07-14 12:52 ` chris.danx 2001-07-15 3:46 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-16 11:12 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-17 13:29 ` chris.danx 2001-07-17 14:21 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 15:55 ` chris.danx 2001-07-19 20:38 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-18 19:27 ` chris.danx 2001-07-16 15:05 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 7:50 ` Emmanuel Briot 2001-07-17 10:09 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 13:26 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 15:06 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 15:49 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 22:42 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 8:13 ` nicolas 2001-07-17 17:58 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-17 18:58 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-17 22:52 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 6:41 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-18 14:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 16:33 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-18 17:12 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-18 18:35 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-18 19:30 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-20 15:41 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-20 17:40 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-20 20:18 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-18 19:20 ` Pascal Obry 2001-07-19 23:27 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-17 22:33 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 14:17 ` Marin David Condic 2001-07-16 17:00 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-16 18:17 ` Al Christians 2001-07-16 18:42 ` Ed Falis 2001-07-16 18:28 ` Mark Lundquist 2001-07-17 7:42 ` Emmanuel Briot 2001-07-17 14:36 ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D. 2001-07-17 7:54 ` Tor Fredrik Aas 2001-07-17 13:33 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 17:51 ` Ted Dennison 2001-07-17 23:00 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-17 22:55 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-17 22:56 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-18 16:10 ` McDoobie 2001-07-19 23:41 ` Stefan Skoglund 2001-07-16 16:52 ` Ted Dennison
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