Need the Same Promotion for Ada

Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Gary Scott]

http://www.compaq.com/fortran/visual/donation-program.html

Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Ed Falis]

Gary Scott wrote:

> http://www.compaq.com/fortran/visual/donation-program.html

You've already got that at least from ACT, and probably other vendors.
Most Ada vendors have had something along these lines forever - if not
free, really close to it.  The difference is company size and marketing
muscle.

- Ed

Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Gary Scott]

Hi, until recently, Compaq had done very little "marketing" beyond news
group postings (and ads in a few software catalogs).  All the same,
they've been fairly successful with the product.  They may have muscle,
but they don't flex it much...maybe this signals a more agressive
campaign...

...and now, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

Ed Falis wrote:
> 
> Gary Scott wrote:
> 
> > http://www.compaq.com/fortran/visual/donation-program.html
> 
> You've already got that at least from ACT, and probably other vendors.
> Most Ada vendors have had something along these lines forever - if not
> free, really close to it.  The difference is company size and marketing
> muscle.
> 
> - Ed


-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Michal Nowak]

>http://www.compaq.com/fortran/visual/donation-program.html

There is product named Visual Ada Developer. It is available at
http://members.nbci.com/ldulman/vad.htm

That may not be the key, because you wrote about promotion
and it VAD page is far from compaq's. Personally, for me, it does
not matter.

Mike Nowak

Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Gary Scott]

Hi,

It seems to me that in today's market, for a language to survive and be
used in anything but a niche manner, requires making the masses aware. 
The very small numbers of people using news groups may be highly aware
of what's available (and possibly what's superior), but less than 2
percent of the 2000 or so programmers at my company are aware that Ada
is even an option for students and would never consider using it for
their personal projects, even though a significant portion of them are
required to use it at work.  They have no idea about GNAT or ADAPOWER. 
All they know is M$oft promotes the heck out of C++ and it's available
at Best Buy, CompUSA, and Fry's, and "management is forcing me to use a
dead language".  Ada is not my favorite language...but it's my second
favorite language and I could live comfortably in an Ada-dominant
world.  Ada SHOULD have a better chance of putting a dent in C++ usage
than my favorite (dead) language, but doesn't seem to be doing as well,
at least in the last 3-5 years.  I wish my favorite language well, it is
evolving well (generally well designed) considering the baggage it must
carry (albeit very very (very) slowly).  But unless something
significant changes in the way standards are developed (meaning rate of
progress), it will be perpetually 5-10 years behind where it should be. 
Ada is already "state of the art" (I obviously don't like some aspects
of it's definition of "state of the art").  I expect more marketing
(darnit)!

Michal Nowak wrote:
> 
> >http://www.compaq.com/fortran/visual/donation-program.html
> 
> There is product named Visual Ada Developer. It is available at
> http://members.nbci.com/ldulman/vad.htm
> 
> That may not be the key, because you wrote about promotion
> and it VAD page is far from compaq's. Personally, for me, it does
> not matter.
> 
> Mike Nowak


-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

[comp.lang.ada] Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Michal Nowak]

On 01-06-16, at 09:57, Gary Scott  wrote: 

>Hi,
>
>It seems to me that in today's market, for a language to survive and be
>used in anything but a niche manner, requires making the masses aware.

Yes, you're right. This could be a complex problem, because now we have
vicious circle (deadlock). There is small number (in compare to C++)
of Ada programmers. Because there is not enough Ada programmers, 
companies do not undertake projects in Ada, instead taking C++. Because
there are no job opportunities in Ada people (I think mostly computer
science students) do not learn Ada. There are not taught Ada in 
universities (or they just have short introduction where they do not
get best aspects of Ada, but just some comparision to C++). They are
not taught, because it is almost impossible to get Ada books in their
native language. There is no books, because small percent of people
needs it, so the publishers will have no profit. 
	Yes, I agree, that promotional campain can be a solution. The
most important points in this chain are companies and students.
The companies should know about all Ada advantages, about that Ada
programs are less error-proneand therefore reliable, that maintenace 
is simpler, and that all this leads to increased income. Because I'm
still a student I try to point what to do at student's side. I had
2 lectures about Ada on VIII semester. There was a little project on
laboratories to do. I caught Ada, most of my friends no. I tried to
encourage to write programs in Ada, but in most cases do not succeeded.
The answers I got :
1. "Ada is strange. I do not understand it. There are some nice things,
   but I cannot write my programs easily".
2. "There is no job in Ada. Why waste time for learning it?"
3. "Is it only for console applications? There is not GUI support for it.
   Who will use such applications?"
My conclusions:
- Group 1. After writing in C/C++ and Java for three years they are so 
familiar with these languaes, that new, different language is totally
strange to them. Theye are able to write quite complex apllications in
C++/Java. They tried to do it at once in Ada and had difficulites on
start. It may be difficult to switch "thinking style" from  C++ to Ada. 
Ada should be tauhgt earlier, on III/IV semester, maybe parallel with 
C++, so students can compare both.
- Group 2. Hmm, they had some truth in it. I told them about job 
possibilities abroad. "But I do not want to work abroad". I don't know
if it is possible, but maybe there are kind of projects and companies 
allow to work on it remotely - so it is possible to write code on own
computer and send it to employer.
- Group 3. I told them about GtkAda, about how portable it is. They 
needed something like Borland Builder or MSVC++. Sound of their voice
indicated, that they would not use such a product for Ada, even if it
exist. They are lost and will not get back from integrated environments
world, but such product can encourage people to reach for Ada. I prefer
commandline tools, because I have control on all compilation process,
but maybe complex environments can be useful for others.

>The very small numbers of people using news groups may be highly aware
>of what's available (and possibly what's superior), but less than 2
>percent of the 2000 or so programmers at my company are aware that Ada
>is even an option for students and would never consider using it for
>their personal projects, even though a significant portion of them are
>required to use it at work.  They have no idea about GNAT or ADAPOWER. 
>All they know is M$oft promotes the heck out of C++ and it's available
>at Best Buy, CompUSA, and Fry's, and "management is forcing me to use a
>dead language".

Yes, really awful situation. I don't why, but after writing some projects
in Ada, they should be familiar with it, so it should not be easier to 
them to write Ada code. They writing in Ada, and do not know about GNAT
or ADAPOWER? 

>Ada SHOULD have a better chance of putting a dent in C++ usage
>than my favorite (dead) language, but doesn't seem to be doing as well,
>at least in the last 3-5 years.  

I don't know what's you favourite language (looks it is Fortran), but
I wish you well. I don't know recent situation in Ada, because im totally
newbie in this world, but for me it looks that Ada has stabile, strong
position of good language.

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: [comp.lang.ada] Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Gary Scott]

Hi,

Michal Nowak wrote:
> 
> On 01-06-16, at 09:57, Gary Scott  wrote:
> 
> >Hi,

<snip> 

> 
> >The very small numbers of people using news groups may be highly aware
> >of what's available (and possibly what's superior), but less than 2
> >percent of the 2000 or so programmers at my company are aware that Ada
> >is even an option for students and would never consider using it for
> >their personal projects, even though a significant portion of them are
> >required to use it at work.  They have no idea about GNAT or ADAPOWER.
> >All they know is M$oft promotes the heck out of C++ and it's available
> >at Best Buy, CompUSA, and Fry's, and "management is forcing me to use a
> >dead language".
> 
> Yes, really awful situation. I don't why, but after writing some projects
> in Ada, they should be familiar with it, so it should not be easier to
> them to write Ada code. They writing in Ada, and do not know about GNAT
> or ADAPOWER?

We use Green Hills almost exclusively.  For some embedded processors, we
write the OS itself, along with a subcontractor, but for others we use a
real time OS provided by GH.

> 
> >Ada SHOULD have a better chance of putting a dent in C++ usage
> >than my favorite (dead) language, but doesn't seem to be doing as well,
> >at least in the last 3-5 years.

I was referring to the continuing move of my company away from Ada and
towards C++.  Every new project that starts that can conceivably NOT be
written in Ada (i.e. not a modification to a legacy product or otherwise
dependent on baseline code, but a completely new product (and one that
can stand the costs involved)) is moved to C++. In some cases, we also
have background projects going on to investigate moving even the biggest
projects away from Ada.  I'm anticipating that to occur for the largest
2 projects in about 5 years when we simultaneously redesign the main
processors to a PowerPC base (now MIPS).  I advise my senior management
of the error of their ways whenever the opportunity arises, but it falls
on deaf ears.  The pressure now is from the workforce that wants to
"maintain its skills at the state of the art" (meaning C++).  No matter
the facts, "state of the art" is for the most part whatever M$oft says
it is.

> 
> I don't know what's you favourite language (looks it is Fortran), but
> I wish you well. I don't know recent situation in Ada, because im totally
> newbie in this world, but for me it looks that Ada has stabile, strong
> position of good language.
> 
> ------------------------
> Mike Nowak
> mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl


-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

Re: [comp.lang.ada] Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Michal Nowak]

On 01-06-17, at 09:32, Gary Scott  wrote:

>> Yes, really awful situation. I don't why, but after writing some projects
>> in Ada, they should be familiar with it, so it should not be easier to
>> them to write Ada code. They writing in Ada, and do not know about GNAT
>> or ADAPOWER?
>
>We use Green Hills almost exclusively.  For some embedded processors, we
>write the OS itself, along with a subcontractor, but for others we use a
>real time OS provided by GH.

I mean self-study. If you are interested in something, you always try to
find some new information, improve your skills, broaden your minds.
It look like they really do not like Ada (you wrote, they say, that
"management is forcing them to use dead language"). Preety bad situation.

>processors to a PowerPC base (now MIPS).  I advise my senior management
>of the error of their ways whenever the opportunity arises, but it falls
>on deaf ears.  The pressure now is from the workforce that wants to
>"maintain its skills at the state of the art" (meaning C++).  No matter
>the facts, "state of the art" is for the most part whatever M$oft says
>it is.

Really bad news. I really don't understand them. Moving from C++ to Ada
is step forward. Moving from Ada to C++ is step backward. I didn't know,
that M$sof can make such a mess in people's brains (a think of programmers).
If it is so, we can have dark future before us.

------------------------
Mike Nowak
mailto: vinnie@inetia.pl

Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Marin David Condic]

I have said here before that the best way to get Ada out of the "niche
market" and into the "mass market" would be to get a really nice, integrated
development kit into a shrink-wrap box with a book and get this in a corner
gondola display at CompUSA, et alia. Thousands of programmers are totally
unaware of the existence of Ada and they don't stand much of a chance of
becoming aware of it when the number of books about Ada on the shelves at
Barnes & Noble, Fryes, etc. is at or near zero and their exposure to Ada
products on the shelves at Best Buy or CompUSA is at a similar level.

Its good that Ada gets taught in some schools. However, a *lot* of
programming is done by high-school geek hobbyists or non-computer
professionals, etc. who tend to pick things up based on what they see in
trade rags and store shelves. A nice, inexpensive, shrink-wrap Ada kit with
textbook and a "Why Ada" introduction at a relatively simple level would
help expose them to it. They might get excited about learning some new
things and start generating that "critical mass" that would make Ada a
market dominator.

Of course, all that takes promotional $$$ and Ada lacks a big institutional
investor. I don't know how to get out of that except to possibly look at
some of the big computer companies and see if one of them could get sold on
the idea of hawking Ada as their own kind of product distinction. Maybe we
need to hire the guy who invented the "Pet Rock" and see if he has any ideas
about promoting Ada. (I always thought the DoD did an absolutely horrible
job of promoting Ada once they invented it. Had they hired a Madison Avenue
firm & paid for an advertising campaign, Ada would not be suffering from the
situation it is in now.)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Gary Scott" <scottg@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3B2B73D0.F5E67C01@flash.net...
> Hi,
>
> It seems to me that in today's market, for a language to survive and be
> used in anything but a niche manner, requires making the masses aware.
> The very small numbers of people using news groups may be highly aware
> of what's available (and possibly what's superior), but less than 2
> percent of the 2000 or so programmers at my company are aware that Ada
> is even an option for students and would never consider using it for
> their personal projects, even though a significant portion of them are
> required to use it at work.  They have no idea about GNAT or ADAPOWER.
> All they know is M$oft promotes the heck out of C++ and it's available
> at Best Buy, CompUSA, and Fry's, and "management is forcing me to use a
> dead language".  Ada is not my favorite language...but it's my second
> favorite language and I could live comfortably in an Ada-dominant
> world.  Ada SHOULD have a better chance of putting a dent in C++ usage
> than my favorite (dead) language, but doesn't seem to be doing as well,
> at least in the last 3-5 years.  I wish my favorite language well, it is
> evolving well (generally well designed) considering the baggage it must
> carry (albeit very very (very) slowly).  But unless something
> significant changes in the way standards are developed (meaning rate of
> progress), it will be perpetually 5-10 years behind where it should be.
> Ada is already "state of the art" (I obviously don't like some aspects
> of it's definition of "state of the art").  I expect more marketing
> (darnit)!
>

Re: Need the Same Promotion for Ada

[Charles Hixson]

"Marin David Condic" <marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com>
wrote in news:9gl2kv$abb$1@nh.pace.co.uk: 

> I have said here before that the best way to get Ada out of
> the "niche market" and into the "mass market" would be to
> get a really nice, integrated development kit into a
> shrink-wrap box with a book and get this in a corner gondola
> display at CompUSA, et alia. Thousands of programmers are
> totally unaware of the existence of Ada and they don't stand
> much of a chance of becoming aware of it when the number of
> books about Ada on the shelves at Barnes & Noble, Fryes,
> etc. is at or near zero and their exposure to Ada products
> on the shelves at Best Buy or CompUSA is at a similar level. 
> 
>... 
> MDC
> --
> Marin David Condic
> Senior Software Engineer
> Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
> Enabling the digital revolution
> e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
> Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/
...
> 

Here's a bit of a problem.  The obvious answer would be to 
package Gnat, Gtk+, Glade (the dialog builder, not the annex) 
with an editor a bit better than AdaGlide or JGrasp and a really 
good installer.  Some nice help files.  A few utilities.  The 
problem is that I don't know how often you could sell it.  
Basically what you are doing here is putting together a 
distribution that's a compiler instead of an OS, and it's not 
clear that you could recover your costs.  And creating an 
installer that could successfully install that combination on a 
computer picked at random isn't trivial.  (E.g., I still haven't 
gotten Glade to work on my Win95 box.  I haven't worked at it 
much, but it's a lot simpler to get it working on one box than 
one all of them.  Particularly the one's that haven't been 
released yet.)

It should also work on Linux, but that shouldn't be as much of a 
big deal.  It looks like an easier job, and if it doesn't, you 
don't loose as much.  Not only is the market smaller, it's 
easier to get all of the pieces, and get them working.  And most 
of the users will be more adept (Winxx systems make being adept 
quite difficult).


-- 
Charles Hixson

Copy software legally, the GNU way!
Use GNU software, and legally make and share copies of software.
See http://www.gnu.org
    http://www.redhat.com
    http://www.linux-mandrake.com
    http://www.calderasystems.com/
    http://www.linuxapps.com/