* RE: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
@ 2001-05-09 19:29 Beard, Frank
2001-05-09 22:10 ` Gary Scott
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Beard, Frank @ 2001-05-09 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org'
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dennison [mailto:dennison@telepath.com]
> I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4
spaces
> in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another
file?),
> and I notice its not in your list.
I was listing what it has, not what it is missing. As far as the 4 spaces
example,
if you are talking about indenting the 300 declarations over 4 spaces, then
yes
that is the indent/unindent that I listed. If you are talking about adding
4 spaces
in the middle of a line, as in wanting to move the colons (:) in the
declarations
over 4 spaces to keep them all lined up, then that is what I called the
"repeat"
feature from emacs, which I do miss. But it is far from a monumental
problem unless
you have a huge number of lines involved, which doesn't seem to happen that
often.
> The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode
on
> one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory
tree
> until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
> significatly different.
You're right, it is similar, but less user friendly and less aesthetically
pleasing,
at least to me.
> Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through
all that
> effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.
That's not exactly true, it does have something similar, in that after you
bring up
the dialog box (just as in the ObjectAda project window), if you begin
typing
characters, it will jump you to the nearest matching name. Then you can
pick from
that part of the list. Windows Explorer works the same way.
I really don't want to start an editor war. Everyone has their own
preference.
Emacs is a powerful editor (as is vi). I just don't like the more primitive
look
and feel.
Frank
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
2001-05-09 19:29 RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal) Beard, Frank
@ 2001-05-09 22:10 ` Gary Scott
2001-05-09 23:45 ` Aron Felix Gurski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Gary Scott @ 2001-05-09 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
If you're using windows, Kedit for Windows has the best of both worlds,
either GUI or command line or both in whatever mixture you might need.
Emulate virtually any other editor, extremely powerful macros and native
command set. Not sure if there's a syntax highlighting recognition file
for Ada, but fairly easy to create one that's reasonably comprehensive.
http://www.kedit.com I mix usage with Visual Studio by adding Kedit to
the "tools" menu.
"Beard, Frank" wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Dennison [mailto:dennison@telepath.com]
>
> > I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4
> spaces
> > in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another
> file?),
> > and I notice its not in your list.
>
> I was listing what it has, not what it is missing. As far as the 4 spaces
> example,
> if you are talking about indenting the 300 declarations over 4 spaces, then
> yes
> that is the indent/unindent that I listed. If you are talking about adding
> 4 spaces
> in the middle of a line, as in wanting to move the colons (:) in the
> declarations
> over 4 spaces to keep them all lined up, then that is what I called the
> "repeat"
> feature from emacs, which I do miss. But it is far from a monumental
> problem unless
> you have a huge number of lines involved, which doesn't seem to happen that
> often.
>
> > The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode
> on
> > one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory
> tree
> > until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
> > significatly different.
>
> You're right, it is similar, but less user friendly and less aesthetically
> pleasing,
> at least to me.
>
> > Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through
> all that
> > effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.
>
> That's not exactly true, it does have something similar, in that after you
> bring up
> the dialog box (just as in the ObjectAda project window), if you begin
> typing
> characters, it will jump you to the nearest matching name. Then you can
> pick from
> that part of the list. Windows Explorer works the same way.
>
> I really don't want to start an editor war. Everyone has their own
> preference.
> Emacs is a powerful editor (as is vi). I just don't like the more primitive
> look
> and feel.
>
> Frank
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
2001-05-09 22:10 ` Gary Scott
@ 2001-05-09 23:45 ` Aron Felix Gurski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Aron Felix Gurski @ 2001-05-09 23:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
Gary Scott wrote:
>
> If you're using windows, Kedit for Windows has the best of both worlds,
> either GUI or command line or both in whatever mixture you might need.
> Emulate virtually any other editor, extremely powerful macros and native
> command set. Not sure if there's a syntax highlighting recognition file
> for Ada, but fairly easy to create one that's reasonably comprehensive.
> http://www.kedit.com I mix usage with Visual Studio by adding Kedit to
> the "tools" menu.
A non-commercial equivalent of KEdit (or IBM's XEdit) is available; it's called
THE and can be found at
http://www.lightlink.com/hessling/THE/index.html
It's available for the Win* as well as the Un*x platforms.
--
-- Aron
NB: To reply by e-mail, remove "spam-block." from my address.
- - - - - - - - - - -
There has been an alarming increase in the number of things about which you know
absolutely nothing.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
@ 2001-05-09 17:15 Beard, Frank
2001-05-09 18:18 ` Ted Dennison
2001-05-09 18:20 ` Ted Dennison
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Beard, Frank @ 2001-05-09 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org'
Kent, I certainly agree with most of your comments.
However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
to use a different editor, but its editor is adequate.
I tried numerous editors without finding one I liked
better, so I gave up trying to find a better one.
It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:
- the standard search/replace
- auto formatting
- color coded identifiers (reserved words, comments, etc.)
- multi-line indent/unindent and auto-indent
- multi-line comment/uncomment
- find in files the allows you to click on the
entry to jump to the location in the file
- bookmarks
- go to definition/completion (browse), unfortunately
it has a limitation. You can browse forward all you
want, but it will only pop back one level. I'm
hoping they will have a fix for that soon.
I miss the repeat function in emacs, where you could repeat
an action anywhere in a file. That would definitely come in
handy when we have to add an update comment to the end of
every line that we modify.
But I hate the way you open a file in emacs. I like the
GUI approach of popping up an Open Dialog box to allow you
to browse to a file. ObjectAda has a Project window that
lists all the files included in the project. Simply
double click the entry and it opens it. If the file is
not part of the project, then the Open Dialog is an easy
way to find and open it.
> I find it much easier to keep an editor window
> open, and build my software with _my_ choice of
> editors, importing the code fresh into the IDE
> with each edit and paying the penalty of no
> incremental compilation or whatever
This usually isn't a problem with ObjectAda until the
project starts getting large. And even then, you can
open another copy of ObjectAda as an editor only.
That way the copy that's opened as the project for
compilation doesn't do the internal validation, but you
do lose the "go to completion" capability, because it
will only browse on files that are part of the project.
I don't think I tried vim. Where can I find it? Does
it work on Windows NT?
Thanks
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: xanthian@well.com [mailto:xanthian@well.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:26 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: <no subject>
Subject powerful editors versus IDEs in software development Re: License to
Steal
References: <mailman.988913824.5508.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>
> I prefer a GUI oriented IDE with some power. I
> miss some of the features of both editors, but
> not nearly enough to ever go back.
> Frank
I'm a bit confused; how could you describe an IDE
as "with some power" if it doesn't even provide
for dropping through to your power editor of
choice?
[I'm a vim() fan myself, having outgrown both
vi() and emacs(), but that's not really
relevant to the larger issue of being captive
to wimpy editing tools when writing software.]
The StarLogo language in which I'm presently
writing code (don't ask) also has an IDE, also
has a "wimpy to the point of provoking suicidal
impulses" editor.
I find it much easier to keep an editor window
open, and build my software with _my_ choice of
editors, importing the code fresh into the IDE
with each edit and paying the penalty of no
incremental compilation or whatever, than I do
trying to work with an editor roughly as feature
free as MS-Notepad.
After all, typical compilers are lightning fast
today, so almost all of the _time_ I spend in
software development is spent editing, whether of
code or docs, so editing is where I want the most
powerful assistance from my choice of tools. In
my experience with several integrated development
environments, IDE developers have too many things
on their plates to also develop the world's best
editor, whatever that might be, as part of their
tool, and the embedded editor more often smacks
of being an afterthought.
I suppose this is back to the Unix concept of a
suite of tools each of which does one thing well
and has a simple integration technique, being
more usable than a monolithic tool that does lots
of things tolerably.
Which is of course a religious issue.
All of which are only opinions, but ones based on
grunches of carpal tunnel syndrome risk taking over
almost 41 years.
Cheers!
xanthian.
--
Kent Paul Dolan <xanthian@well.com>
--
Posted from smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
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comp.lang.ada mailing list
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
2001-05-09 17:15 Beard, Frank
@ 2001-05-09 18:18 ` Ted Dennison
2001-05-09 23:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-05-09 18:20 ` Ted Dennison
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-05-09 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
says...
>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
..
>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:
I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
and I notice its not in your list.
>But I hate the way you open a file in emacs. I like the
>GUI approach of popping up an Open Dialog box to allow you
>to browse to a file. ObjectAda has a Project window that
The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode on
one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory tree
until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
significatly different.
Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through all that
effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.
---
T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
2001-05-09 18:18 ` Ted Dennison
@ 2001-05-09 23:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2001-05-09 23:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <hSfK6.8063$vg1.667986@www.newsranger.com>, Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes:
> In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
> says...
>>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
> ..
>>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:
>
> I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
> in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
> and I notice its not in your list.
Although I prefer TECO (somewhat more powerful than a Macro facility),
if those 300 lines are adjacent the feature I hear GUI editor fans
espouse is "rectangular cut and paste".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)
2001-05-09 17:15 Beard, Frank
2001-05-09 18:18 ` Ted Dennison
@ 2001-05-09 18:20 ` Ted Dennison
1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Ted Dennison @ 2001-05-09 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
says...
>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
..
>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:
I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
and I notice its not in your list.
>But I hate the way you open a file in emacs. I like the
>GUI approach of popping up an Open Dialog box to allow you
>to browse to a file. ObjectAda has a Project window that
The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode on
one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory tree
until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
significatly different.
Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through all that
effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.
---
T.E.D. homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
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2001-05-09 19:29 RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal) Beard, Frank
2001-05-09 22:10 ` Gary Scott
2001-05-09 23:45 ` Aron Felix Gurski
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2001-05-09 17:15 Beard, Frank
2001-05-09 18:18 ` Ted Dennison
2001-05-09 23:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-05-09 18:20 ` Ted Dennison
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