Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[dewar]

<<Are you intending on extending this policy at some point to the GNAT
runtime, GtkAda or other frameworks (executables of course have always been
GPL) under the ACT wing?
>>

First of all, we have no firm policy even in this case, so far our customers
have reacted entirely positively (those who have raised the issue), so it is
not an issue for them. 

Second, we will do things on a case by case basis, so it is not clear what
will happen in the future.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Emmanuel Briot]

[Posted on behalf of Robert Dewar]



First, a general note, the direct posts you saw from me in this
thread are not posts at all, but the results of some very strange
cc mechanism in what were intended to be personal replies to David
Botton. I apologize for these, they were definitely worded as private
mail to Dave, and not for general consumption (in particular I
certainly would not have posted the comment about RR, and I want
to make it clear that I appreciate RR's efforts in the Ada area,
indeed they are a technical partner of ours, and we point customers
in their direction, but we certainly do not regard them as a competitive
force, quite the contrary, we regard them as partners).

None of these posts should be regarded as official comments from ACT, they
are simply off hand comments to David. I will refrain from answering
any of David's email in the future to prevent this strange occurrence.
It never occured to me that a cc could be used in this way to create
a direct post that looks like it was deliberately posted as an
article.

  > I am glad to see you back, Mr Dewar, I hope it's not just a temporary
  > thing.

As I explained, any posts that appear directly from me are entirely
accidental, and most certainly that phenomenon is temporary. I do not
intend to post my personal email here, and once again, apologize for
doing so (email is a tricky area, with all sorts of traps like this :-)

I do watch some threads, and will post indirectly from time to time
when it is appropriate to do so.

-----------------------------------------

Second, a couple of specific comments (these ARE intended as posts).
In general from now on, only posts coming indirectly from someone
else at ACT are intentional posts :-)

  Florian said

  > But what will you do if someone contributes code under the GPL?  Or
  > won't you accept such contributions?  (Maybe that's a highly
  > theoretical issue at this point, but you never know...)

I must say I am completely puzzled by this comment. All the code in
question IS under the GPL, so certainly people can contribute GPL'ed
code. You have to explain what on earth you mean here :-) Furthermore
people have contributed a lot of GPL'ed code in the past, as well as
GMGPL'ed code where appropriate, so there is nothing theoretical about
such a possibility.

  Ted said

  > Since a copy was cc-ed to me, I too was wondering where it was. I'm glad to see
  > it finally appear, as it has some good info in it (despite the personal
  > attacks).

Please do not regard it as a personal attack if I correct plain inaccurate
information, and if I suggest more careful checking up on information. It
really doesn't help if incorrect stuff is posted. if you are relying on
your memory, check first :-)

  > Now perhaps you can see why I got so defensive all of a sudden. I'll leave it up
  > to everyone else's judgement whether what I said was reasonably close to the
  > truth, based on the old messages I referenced. What started that thread that
  > contained the RMS suggestion to use a modified GPL is unfortunately lost to the
  > mists of time, but my memory of it was that someone piped up about their lawyers
  > refusing to allow use of GNAT due to the GPL/LGPL issue. 

No, nothing is lost in this mists of time, and the facts are quite clear, 
despite Ted's memory to the contrary. Here are the historical facts (if
you like, go back and check the document trail, you will find this all
documented).

1. The original GNAT contract required all software to be released under
the GPL or LGPL and the copyright assigned to the FSF. The idea was to
release the runtime under the LGPL. This was a direct response to my
suggestion of what the contract should say.

2. On examination, we became concerned that the LGPL was not the right vehicle
because of two factors

  a) the annoyance of distributing objects
  b) the issue of generics

So I created the GMGPL very early on, and we used it from the very beginning
for all GNAT sources (neither the GPL nor the LGPL was ever used for any
GNAT runtime sources). We then discussed with Stallman to ask if he had
any objection to the change.

He was confused at first, and thought we were suggesting using the *GPL* for
the runtime library, and he encouraged us to look to the C model and use a 
modified non-restrictive version of the GPL, but that was what we were already
doing in any case.

So once again, no, there was no one who "piped up about their lawyer
refusing to allow use of GNAT" that had any influence on this decision
which was made long before any lawyer had a chance to pipe up :-)

Sure, there were lawyers who piped up, and we went through many occasions
on which we had to demonstrate to lawyers that our GMGPL license for the 
runtime meant that they could use the system without concerns. Now days,
we provide a formal license agreement to our customers that clarifies all
issues. In the case of non-customers, there really is no clear legal license
agreement, and indeed it is a bit unclear in court what the status would be
for users of the public version (in other words, courts would have to decide
whether the fact that you had published a statement that something was
distributed under the GPL constituted receiving specific permission for
copying, we hope it would, but we do not know till it is litigated).
For customers, the situation is like dealing with any other company,
indeed it is like dealing with Microsoft, except our license is a bit
more liberal than theirs :-)

(by the way, I comment on Microsoft's latest outburst that they have a lot
of chutzpah to complain that they don't like the license we choose to give
because it means they cannot abscond with *our* intellectual property :-)

But back to piping up lawyers ... as I said in my previous message, we knew
perfectly well that using the GPL for everything would have caused trouble
(not the least of which is that it would have been non-responsive to the
DoD contract which required the LGPL to be used for the runtime :-)
Neither the decision to use the LGPL, nor the subsequent decision to
replace it with the GMGPL had anything to do with external lawyers. Indeed
at that time, we knew more about how GPL licensing works than virtually
all IPR lawyers (now of course Microsoft, Redhat, WRS, IBM etc have large
armies of lawyers who have studied these licenses VERY carefully).

(another side comment on Microsoft is that of course when they try to spread
FUD about open source software in general, and the GPL in particular, what
they are really trying to do is to stop people using the stuff. It must be
very frustrating for Microsoft that not only is there important software
that they don't own it, but they can't even buy it, no matter how much
money they have :-)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <l81yq2twlt.fsf@berlin.int.act-europe.fr>, Emmanuel Briot says...
>[Posted on behalf of Robert Dewar]
>(by the way, I comment on Microsoft's latest outburst that they have a lot
>of chutzpah to complain that they don't like the license we choose to give
>because it means they cannot abscond with *our* intellectual property :-)
..
>(another side comment on Microsoft is that of course when they try to spread
>FUD about open source software in general, and the GPL in particular, what
>they are really trying to do is to stop people using the stuff. It must be
>very frustrating for Microsoft that not only is there important software
>that they don't own it, but they can't even buy it, no matter how much
>money they have :-)

They also can't use their famous "embrace and extend" technique, as they have to
make the sources available for any extensions they distribute. :-)

For anyone who doesn't know what Microsoft comments we are referring to, see:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/craig/05-03sharedsource.asp

There's a response from Alan Cox posted at
http://news.wideopen.com/fc/2-118,209-119,509967

and a response from Linus at
http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/05/03/opinion/dgillmor/weblog/torvalds.htm

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Marin David Condic]

I thought the English translation of "Embrace And Extend" was "Engulf And
Devour" :-)

I definitely get the feeling that Micro$oft is running scared because of
things like Linux, etc. Just goes to show that the American Free Enterprise
System doesn't always need anti-trust suits in order to remain in fine
working order.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:iLyJ6.4497$vg1.349668@www.newsranger.com...
>
> They also can't use their famous "embrace and extend" technique, as they
have to
> make the sources available for any extensions they distribute. :-)
>

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Preben Randhol]

On Mon, 7 May 2001 11:06:51 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote:
> I thought the English translation of "Embrace And Extend" was "Engulf And
> Devour" :-)
> 
> I definitely get the feeling that Micro$oft is running scared because of
> things like Linux, etc. Just goes to show that the American Free Enterprise
> System doesn't always need anti-trust suits in order to remain in fine
> working order.

Yes it does. The only reason why Linux isn't already bought and devoured
by Microsoft, is that it isn't something you can buy. It is unattainable
so they are now sucking their thumb and crying : "Mammy, Mammy! I don't
like GPL. It is nice as I won't get so much money for my crappy software
anymore! It forces me to make something that works!" It isn't for
nothing that Sun bought and released the source code of Star Office.

What they want is to get an alternative to M$ Office, because if they do
get that then people can start uninstalling Windows and install other
OSes.  Now "everybody" needs to have Windows because they get
documents in Word or Powerpoint format.  It isn't for nothing either
that Micro$oft won't use an open file format for Word, Excel,
Powerpoint etc.., nor make a port to Linux and other Unices...

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Marin David Condic]

I read the article that Ted pointed to and I have to agree - they sound like
whining crybabies. "We can't compete against someone who is giving their
stuff away for free, so its not fair!!! They should stop!!!" (If its such a
lousy business model, then why would they be so worried? Just wait for the
business model to implode, like the dotcoms they site as examples. Maybe its
not such a lousy business model after all? Otherwise why would Micro$oft be
out trying to share their source code now?)

While there are potential problems with Open Source Software (divergence,
infection & the potential for abuses) it is hard to imagine that reasonably
intelligent people are suddenly going to jump on the Micro$oft Shared Source
stuff if it is more restrictive. Semi-sane developers will ask "What's in it
for me?" If I can work with OSS stuff at no cost to me with the possible
risk of GPL infection, is there some reason I want to start paying Micro$oft
money for access to *their* source? Or at least risking that by using
Micro$oft's source I am exposing myself to a predatory giant with a history
of eating its "partners"? Gee! I think I'll take my chances with some
version of the GPL!

Its a little like the Internet itself. The government built it with an eye
towards making something that couldn't be stopped by nuclear war. Now they
discover that they can't stop it with legislation. (Duh!) Now this Linux
thing is out there unleashed on the world of PC developers and users, and
Windoze is finding it hard to compete & they have now way of stopping it.
(boohoohoo!!! I weep for Micro$oft!) If Windows hadn't been so "proprietary"
it might have avoided this sort of competitor.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

"Preben Randhol" <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message
news:slrn9fdgsv.946.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no...
> Yes it does. The only reason why Linux isn't already bought and devoured
> by Microsoft, is that it isn't something you can buy. It is unattainable
> so they are now sucking their thumb and crying : "Mammy, Mammy! I don't
> like GPL. It is nice as I won't get so much money for my crappy software
> anymore! It forces me to make something that works!" It isn't for
> nothing that Sun bought and released the source code of Star Office.
>
> What they want is to get an alternative to M$ Office, because if they do
> get that then people can start uninstalling Windows and install other
> OSes.  Now "everybody" needs to have Windows because they get
> documents in Word or Powerpoint format.  It isn't for nothing either
> that Micro$oft won't use an open file format for Word, Excel,
> Powerpoint etc.., nor make a port to Linux and other Unices...
>

OT: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9d6i89$3nf$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
>While there are potential problems with Open Source Software (divergence,

I had to laugh when they raised that issue. How many different "Windows" OS's
does Microsoft have floating around now? At least 4, no matter how you count.
Just about any serious Windows app has to have some code somewhere that detects
the Windows version and does completely different things depending on which one
it is. One good example is trying to get see if a certain program is running.
There's an API for it in 9x. With NT you have to do a series of convoulted
real-time registry lookups (which won't work on 9x).

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Marin David Condic]

Excellent point! Even with absolute control over their own product, they
couldn't stop it from diverging! Sort of the "Tower of Babel" all over
again. Internally, you have a community of programmers (& managers) who
aren't going to be nice little robots all performing in lock-step ballet
with each other. For business reasons and probably also for turf-wars,
protection of feifdoms, etc., multiple paths evolved. Maybe you can exercise
more discipline over the programmers & managers internally than you could
over a widespread group of OSS developers - but still, managing programmers
is like hearding cats... :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:xSAJ6.4705$vg1.368306@www.newsranger.com...
> In article <9d6i89$3nf$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
> >While there are potential problems with Open Source Software (divergence,
>
> I had to laugh when they raised that issue. How many different "Windows"
OS's
> does Microsoft have floating around now? At least 4, no matter how you
count.
> Just about any serious Windows app has to have some code somewhere that
detects
> the Windows version and does completely different things depending on
which one
> it is. One good example is trying to get see if a certain program is
running.
> There's an API for it in 9x. With NT you have to do a series of convoulted
> real-time registry lookups (which won't work on 9x).
>
> ---
> T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
>           home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Samuel T. Harris]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> Excellent point! Even with absolute control over their own product, they
> couldn't stop it from diverging! Sort of the "Tower of Babel" all over
> again. Internally, you have a community of programmers (& managers) who
> aren't going to be nice little robots all performing in lock-step ballet
> with each other. For business reasons and probably also for turf-wars,
> protection of feifdoms, etc., multiple paths evolved. Maybe you can exercise
> more discipline over the programmers & managers internally than you could
> over a widespread group of OSS developers - but still, managing programmers
> is like hearding cats... :-)
> 

Once thing which continues to amuse me is that when I
look at the Windows API stuff, I can identify different
"epochs" of API creation. Naming schemes, the order of
parameters, the style of the documentation all show a
partitioning of the calls into little stylistically
consistent groups.

-- 
Samuel T. Harris, Principal Engineer
Raytheon, Aerospace Engineering Services
"If you can make it, We can fake it!"

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Marin David Condic]

Would you call this study "Software Archeology" or "Software Anthropology"?
I'm wondering if we'd discover evidence proving the existence of Piltdown
Man... :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

"Samuel T. Harris" <u61783@gsde.hou.us.ray.com> wrote in message
news:3AF854C4.406F464C@gsde.hou.us.ray.com...
>
> Once thing which continues to amuse me is that when I
> look at the Windows API stuff, I can identify different
> "epochs" of API creation. Naming schemes, the order of
> parameters, the style of the documentation all show a
> partitioning of the calls into little stylistically
> consistent groups.
>

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[James Rogers]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> Would you call this study "Software Archeology" or "Software Anthropology"?
> I'm wondering if we'd discover evidence proving the existence of Piltdown
> Man... :-)
> 

I think there are a lot of unexplored opportunities for software
"sciences". While working briefly as a contractor in a shop doing
Y2K amelioration a few years back I realized I had become a
software proctologist.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9d9nni$9sb$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
>
>Would you call this study "Software Archeology" or "Software Anthropology"?
>I'm wondering if we'd discover evidence proving the existence of Piltdown
>Man... :-)

You mean Hungarian Notation isn't evidence enough? :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9d6pnr$6a6$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
>
>Excellent point! Even with absolute control over their own product, they
>couldn't stop it from diverging! Sort of the "Tower of Babel" all over
>again. Internally, you have a community of programmers (& managers) who

As another good illustration of this, just yesterday I purchaced a new Windows
game (Tropico) which listed on its box no less than 5 Windows OS's that it runs
on. That's acutally a really nice effort on PopTop's part. Most game companies
only list one or two, and refuse any support calls from users on unlisted
variants, like NT. Most of my software development tools at work are even worse.
They support either NT or 2K, and nothing else.

You'd think Microsoft would take great pains to *avoid* the "forking" issue. :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[tmoran]

>You'd think Microsoft would take great pains to *avoid* the "forking" issue. :-)
  One might think the airlines could simplify ticketting, meals, etc. and
save money if they had one class, instead of Economy, Business, First.  ;)
  I wonder what courses Gates took during his short time at Harvard.
Econ or CS?

Re: Microsoft Follies (was: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <TLfK6.549$%i7.302004@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, tmoran@acm.org
says...
>
>>You'd think Microsoft would take great pains to *avoid* the "forking" issue. :-)
>  One might think the airlines could simplify ticketting, meals, etc. and
>save money if they had one class, instead of Economy, Business, First.  ;)

Perhaps, but it ceartianly wouldn't save the airlines any money if they had the
different classes flying on different planes using different schedules. B-)

The only OS in their panoply that I think you could really make an argument for
needing to be separate is Wince.

The trick to making money on "discrimintory pricing" is to keep the services
provided as similiar to each other as possible. Microsoft already does that
quite well with their "student versions" that are the exact same versions of
their software, but sold at school bookstores for %20-50 less. Note that a new
"student version" of Win2K costs less than a new consumer version of WinMe. 

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

MS crybabies (was Re: [ANNOUNCE])

[Stanley R. Allen]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> I read the article that Ted pointed to and I have to agree - they sound like
> whining crybabies. "We can't compete against someone who is giving their
> stuff away for free, so its not fair!!! They should stop!!!" 

Of course, Microsoft would never give away a major
product for free in order to preclude competition.

-- 
Stanley Allen
mailto:Stanley_R_Allen-NR@raytheon.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[tmoran]

>Now "everybody" needs to have Windows because they get
>documents in Word or Powerpoint format.
  Or gigantic, slow, PDF files so even Government web sites
virtually force Adobe's Acrobat on people. :(

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[tmoran]

>For anyone who doesn't know what Microsoft comments we are referring to, see:
>http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/craig/05-03sharedsource.asp
>
>There's a response from Alan Cox posted at
>http://news.wideopen.com/fc/2-118,209-119,509967
>
>and a response from Linus at
>http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/05/03/opinion/dgillmor/weblog/torvalds.htm

  Both Cox and Linus seem to frame the question as Open Source vs
Microsoft, as if MS was the only alternative, and commodity shrink
wrap the only kind of software.

  They would also be more convincing if they cut out the illogical
statements and emotional ad hominem remarks:

Cox:
>he mysteriously forgot
>The obsession
>Craig is apparently unable to grasp the concept
>Craig also appears so obsessed
>Apparently Craig also has problems reading licenses.
>strangely neglects

Linus:
>Mundie seems to hate so much
>I wonder if Mundie has ever heard of Sir Isaac Newton?
>I'd rather listen to Newton than to
  Mundie.  He may have been dead for almost three hundred years,
  but despite that he stinks up the room less.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Brian Orpin]

On Sun, 06 May 2001 13:50:39 GMT, Emmanuel Briot <briot@gnat.com> wrote:

>[Posted on behalf of Robert Dewar]
>
>First, a general note, the direct posts you saw from me in this
>thread are not posts at all, but the results of some very strange
>cc mechanism in what were intended to be personal replies to David
>Botton.

Tricky this email stuff.  The messages clearly state that they are 'To'
the mail-news gateway that David obviously uses as well as David himself.

From David's posts
Reply-To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Cc: <dewar@gnat.com>
To: <comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>
Return-Path: <David@Botton.com>

So clearly if Robert had simply replied the reply to address is the
mail-news gateway at ada.eu.org.

Hardly some strange cc mechanism.

It just sounded to me like Robert was blaming David for his own
incompetence with an email client.

GIGO

-- 
Brian Orpin    BAE SYSTEMS, Edinburgh
"If you really know C++, there isn't much you can't do with it, though it may 
not always be what you intended!"  Tucker Taft 1998 

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <tj4fftggst1onf6itc6cvts8t3tnlfbhqg@4ax.com>, Brian Orpin <abuse@borpin.co.uk> writes:

> So clearly if Robert had simply replied the reply to address is the
> mail-news gateway at ada.eu.org.
> 
> Hardly some strange cc mechanism.
> 
> It just sounded to me like Robert was blaming David for his own
> incompetence with an email client.

Regardless of those involved, I would blame the design of the user
interface for the mail program.  The program that I prefer _never_
automatically adds other names to a REPLY.  The other one that I
happen to use always displays a full list when I am composing the
list, but still it would be possible to make a mistake.

Computers are supposed to be programmed to serve the humans,
not the other way around.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Jeffrey Carter]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> Computers are supposed to be programmed to serve the humans,
> not the other way around.

What planet are you from? This is Earth, 2001 CE, where the latest,
greatest, hottest, bestest, OS is ... [drum roll] ... a new
implementation of UNIX?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Starner]

On 8 May 2001 07:22:10 -0500, Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> Regardless of those involved, I would blame the design of the user
> interface for the mail program.  The program that I prefer _never_
> automatically adds other names to a REPLY.  The other one that I
> happen to use always displays a full list when I am composing the
> list, but still it would be possible to make a mistake.
> 
> Computers are supposed to be programmed to serve the humans,
> not the other way around.

If you build an idiot-proof program, the world will build a better
idiot . . . and we've all had those days when we were that idiot and
screwed up what couldn't be screwed up. Most mail programs provide a
reply and reply-all, and I always reply-all and edit the messages,
because the address I usually want it to go to (the list) isn't what
reply will use. 

It's easy to always blame the software, but it's often only an
accomplice to your errors, and the easiest part to replace.

-- 
David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org
Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org
"I don't care if Bill personally has my name and reads my email and 
laughs at me. In fact, I'd be rather honored." - Joseph_Greg

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

I must apologize if it was not obvious that my e-mails included the CLA
gateway address in the CC line. I will certainly make a point of indicating
so if I ever do so in the future. It was not my intention to do any thing
underhanded.

David Botton


----- Original Message -----
From: "Emmanuel Briot" <briot@gnat.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
To: <comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released


>
> [Posted on behalf of Robert Dewar]
>
>
>
> First, a general note, the direct posts you saw from me in this
> thread are not posts at all, but the results of some very strange
> cc mechanism in what were intended to be personal replies to David
> Botton.


> None of these posts should be regarded as official comments from ACT, they
> are simply off hand comments to David. I will refrain from answering
> any of David's email in the future to prevent this strange occurrence.
> It never occured to me that a cc could be used in this way to create
> a direct post that looks like it was deliberately posted as an
> article.

RE: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[dewar]

<<I still believe that in the long run, a significant part of the Ada
community could make a large amount of money by going beyond the outdated
Free Software philosophy and pursuing an effective approach to assist
startups. I have described this and created a first draft of a license (see
references below). Ada technology including ASIS has the unique capacity to
create a rear loaded licensing scheme which includes competitive forces.
This is an ideal condition for capitalizing on a unique software technology.
In short, many of us could make substantial amounts of money by producing
commercial products that work.
>>

You are welcome to follow this commercial path for yourself. Why not do so
if you think it will make money? We don't see it as viable, but
the marketplace is about completing viewpoints, and the nice thing about
the Free Software philsophy (I have no idea what you are referring to when
you use this phrase, but undoubtedly you are confused a
bit on what this means) is that it allows people like you to put
your money where your mouth is on this issue.

You should know by now that you are not going to persuade us to change
course in this respect. We are the only remaining successful Ada vendor
(as in a vendor whose primary product is Ada), and we think that is becayuse
we know how to persue the market. If you think you know better, give it
a try, and show everyone you are right :-)

RE: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[tmoran]

>I have no idea what you are referring to when you use this phrase,
>but undoubtedly you are confused a bit on what this means
  An interesting viewpoint.

>We are the only remaining successful Ada vendor (as in a vendor whose
>primary product is Ada), and we think that is becayuse we know how to
>persue the market.
  It would be interesting to hear your former competitor's views on
their reasons for abandoning the Ada compiler business.  In fact, is it
reasonable to call ACT an "Ada vendor" when it does not in fact "vend"
Ada compilers?  Isn't ACT a vendor of support services, specialized for
the GNAT compiler?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Emmanuel Briot]

[On behalf of Robert Dewar]

Tom Moran asks

<<It would be interesting to hear your former competitor's views on
their reasons for abandoning the Ada compiler business.  In fact, is it
reasonable to call ACT an "Ada vendor" when it does not in fact "vend"
Ada compilers?  Isn't ACT a vendor of support services, specialized for
the GNAT compiler?
>>

Of course we sell Ada compilers. Just like Microsoft, we offer copyrighted,
licensed software together with support. Now it is true that we offer a
considerably less restrictive license, which is good for our customers
in many ways, and we certainly hope that our support is considerably
better than what Microsoft supplies :-)

But the basic business model is the same, if you buy our product you get
a nice box with manuals, CD ROM's and a license agreement. You also
get support included.

Now it is certainly true that our business model is MUCH more oriented to
giving high level support, but the fundamental model here is the same as
any other software business. Tom Moran's characterization definitely does
not correspond to our business model!

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

P.S. I do not know of other vendors "abandoning" the Ada business. Far from
it, all the ARA vendors report increasing business in the Ada market. What
distinguishes Ada Core Technologies is that we are, as far as I know, the
only Ada compiler vendor whose primary business is in the Ada market (and
I am happy to report that we can pay our bills just fine :-)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

> The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported
customers
> and those developing free software products for use in entirely free
software
> activities.

I hope that if you should see (in my opinion, realize) in the future that
making these sort of libraries available in a less restrivtive lic. will
help to garner more interest in Ada and that can only be good for ACT's
business in the future that you will consider changing the lic.

In principle I agree with you, I only wish that Ada was such a force in the
programming world that the GMGPL for anything but the GNAT runtime would not
be (in my opinion) needed.

Either way I hope ACT continues to both use "real" open source licenses and
distribute its sources as it has up until now.

David Botton





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RE: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.]

From: Bob Leif
To: Robert Dewar, David Bottom et al.

Robert Dewar wrote:
"The only people who are affected by this policy are non-customers who want
to build proprietary software, or those who want to build tools and
libraries
for such parties, and they have never been on our radar screen."

I can certainly sympathize with your position. Since ACT is a for profit
corporation, I can understand why you do not wish to provide charity for
other profit making ventures.

I believe that what you are doing is the expected result of the economic
model being employed by ACT. This model has produced a two tier pricing
strategy: too high and zero. I also believe that the well-deserved great
success of ACT is in large part the result of technical superiority and
dedication to the use of Ada.

I still believe that in the long run, a significant part of the Ada
community could make a large amount of money by going beyond the outdated
Free Software philosophy and pursuing an effective approach to assist
startups. I have described this and created a first draft of a license (see
references below). Ada technology including ASIS has the unique capacity to
create a rear loaded licensing scheme which includes competitive forces.
This is an ideal condition for capitalizing on a unique software technology.
In short, many of us could make substantial amounts of money by producing
commercial products that work.

R. C. Leif, �SIGAda �98, Workshop: How do We Expedite the Commercial Use of
Ada?.� Ada letters XIX, No 1 pp. 28-39 (1999).
R. C. Leif, �Ada Developers Cooperative License (Draft) Version 0.3�, Ada
letters XIX, No 1 pp. 97-107 (1999).
-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org]On Behalf Of dewar@gnat.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:35 AM
To: David@Botton.com; comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Cc: dewar@gnat.com
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released


<<Will packages like XML\Ada that are under the new ACT policy be available
for purchase or under a very low price minimal support contract that are
reasonable for small time developers?
>>

No, we are not in this kind of business at all

<<(The guys at RR Software must be loving this new policy :-)
>>

They aren't a force in the Ada market at all at this stage, and they sell
all their stuff under proprietary licenses anyway.

The only people who are affected by this policy are non-customers who want
to build proprietary software, or those who want to build tools and
libraries
for such parties, and they have never been on our radar screen.

The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported customers
and those developing free software products for use in entirely free
software
activities.

Re: RE: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <mailman.989219766.20003.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Robert C. Leif,
Ph.D. says...
>I still believe that in the long run, a significant part of the Ada
>community could make a large amount of money by going beyond the outdated
>Free Software philosophy and pursuing an effective approach to assist

Personally, I'm not all that interested in making "a large amount of money" off
of Ada. What I'd like to do is increase the utility and usage of the language,
and trust that the rising tide raises all boats.

I'm not sure where you get "outdated" from. As near as I can tell, the Free
Software licenses are still quite effective at achieving their goals, when
appropriately used. Nothing has happened that I can see to make them obsolete.

The problem here, and David nailed this dead-on in a previous post, is that the
GPL simultaniously encourages further use of the GPL, and discourages use of the
environment in question. This is no new insight; its talked about at length in
the LGPL rationale. If there is no feasable alternative to the environment in
which the GPL'ed code exists, then the net effect is going to be positive (at
least from the perspective of someone who wants to see more GPL'ed code).
However, if there are lots of other alternatives, then the GPL just becomes a
poison pill. That is why the LGPL (and the GMGPL) exists.

In this case, there are certianly no cost (or low cost) alternatives to using
ACT's XML parser on most platforms, but they mostly involve not using Ada. Of
course that's the situation we had *before* the XML parser was released, so its
not like ACT is hurting Ada, they just aren't helping it as much as they could.
But considering that no *other* Ada compiler vendor has seen fit to release
GMGPL'ed code at all, there's no sense bashing ACT about this. 

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Preben Randhol]

On Mon, 07 May 2001 14:23:31 GMT, Ted Dennison wrote:

[...]
> course that's the situation we had *before* the XML parser was
> released, so its not like ACT is hurting Ada, they just aren't helping
> it as much as they could.  But considering that no *other* Ada
> compiler vendor has seen fit to release GMGPL'ed code at all, there's
> no sense bashing ACT about this. 

As I see it the Xml/Ada will greatly help Ada. I'm of course thinking of
the Free Software scene where GPL is used. Now I can easily develope
software with Ada as I have both GtkAda (which is also getting Gnome
support) and XML/Ada available. And other libraries and tools like
Orbit, and different graphics libraries... :-)

I found this rather nice quote at 

   http://erik.bagfors.nu/gnome/languages.html

from Owen Taylor one of the core developers of the GTK+ library: 

   To quote Owen Taylor (at Redhat): 

   And of course, the number 1 tip for GTK+ programming is:  

   - Don't use C; In my opinion, C is a library programming language
     not an app programming language.

Let's add: "Use Ada!" and then show how it is done by making and
releasing apps that are stable and good! :-)

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[dewar]

<<I hope that if you should see (in my opinion, realize) in the future that
making these sort of libraries available in a less restrivtive lic. will
help to garner more interest in Ada and that can only be good for ACT's
business in the future that you will consider changing the lic.
>>

We don't really see that allowing people to use our technology in proprietary
products when they are not our customers helps us :-)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[dewar]

<<The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported customers
and those developing free software products for use in entirely free software
activities.
>>

I should add students fiddling around to that :-)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[dewar]

<<Will packages like XML\Ada that are under the new ACT policy be available
for purchase or under a very low price minimal support contract that are
reasonable for small time developers?
>>

No, we are not in this kind of business at all

<<(The guys at RR Software must be loving this new policy :-)
>>

They aren't a force in the Ada market at all at this stage, and they sell
all their stuff under proprietary licenses anyway.

The only people who are affected by this policy are non-customers who want
to build proprietary software, or those who want to build tools and libraries
for such parties, and they have never been on our radar screen.

The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported customers
and those developing free software products for use in entirely free software
activities. 

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Peter Hend�n]

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Robert Dewar wrote:
> The only people who are affected by this policy are non-customers who want
> to build proprietary software, or those who want to build tools and
libraries
> for such parties, and they have never been on our radar screen.

> The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported
customers
> and those developing free software products for use in entirely free
software
> activities.

I guess some of my "arguments" as well as some of those of others in this
thread could be summarised as being about broadening the user base of
Ada. Isn't what's good for Ada good for ACT?

Personally I use the public release of gnat as a means of "getting Ada in
the door", and a GMGPLed license for the XML package would have helped
immensely. As for my own XML package, well that isn't quite the same thing,
since with that I can no longer say "and look - if this proves to be good,
you can get support for all of this from a stable company, with (cross-)
compilers for most platforms you can dream up, and what-not".

I am glad to see you back, Mr Dewar, I hope it's not just a temporary
thing.

Regards

Peter Hend�n

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[tmoran]

>The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported customers
>and those developing free software products for use in entirely free software
>activities.
  Sounds like a very clear statement of what market you are ceding to
others. :)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Florian Weimer]

dewar@gnat.com writes:

> The only comunities we are interested in helping are our supported
> customers and those developing free software products for use in
> entirely free software activities.

But what will you do if someone contributes code under the GPL?  Or
won't you accept such contributions?  (Maybe that's a highly
theoretical issue at this point, but you never know...)

[ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Emmanuel Briot]

We are happy to announce the first public release of the XML/Ada suite of
tools.
This is a set of Ada packages that can be used to manipulate XML streams. It
includes a full XML parser (including for the DTD part), as well as
SAX 2.0 and DOM 2.0 compliant interfaces (please see the web page and the
documentation for more information on these interfaces).
It also includes a Unicode module to manipulate and convert Unicode streams.

It passes most of the applicable tests of the official XML conformance
testsuite.

This library is still considered beta, and is released under the
standard GNU Public License (GPL).  As usual, it is provided as is,
without guarantee or support. We do not recommend using of this
package in a commercial application. If you are interested in using a
supported version of this library suitable for commercial
applications, please contact sales@act-europe.fr.

This software is available freely on the
   http://libre.act-europe.fr/
web page.

Please contact the author for questions or bug reports.


Emmanuel Briot
briot@act-europe.fr

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Preben Randhol]

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:19:53 GMT, Emmanuel Briot wrote:
> 
> We are happy to announce the first public release of the XML/Ada suite of
> tools.

Brilliant! 
-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Emmanuel Briot]

Oups, I didn't test that XmlAda was compiling fine with the latest 3.13p
release of GNAT.
As a result, I have left some switches in the Makefile that didn't
exist at the time.

I'll make a new release soon, but in the meanwhile you can compile
XmlAda by removing

   -gnatwu -gnaty
from the GNATMAKE_FLAGS in the file Makefile.module (root directory)

and removing the "-u" on line 71 in the same file.

Although this will recompile some files several times unnecessarily, you will
at least be able to use the library.

regards,
Emmanuel

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Florian Weimer]

Emmanuel Briot <briot@gnat.com> writes:

> Oups, I didn't test that XmlAda was compiling fine with the latest 3.13p
> release of GNAT.
> As a result, I have left some switches in the Makefile that didn't
> exist at the time.

The current release of ada-mode has the same problem, BTW.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

Is there any plans to have a public version of XML\Ada with the GNAT
Modified GPL?

David Botton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emmanuel Briot" <briot@gnat.com>

> This library is still considered beta, and is released under the
> standard GNU Public License (GPL).

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Preben Randhol]

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:49:56 -0400, David Botton wrote:
> Is there any plans to have a public version of XML\Ada with the GNAT
> Modified GPL?

If it is a library isn't LGPL better?

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <slrn9eibsn.1on.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>, Preben
Randhol says...
>
>On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:49:56 -0400, David Botton wrote:
>> Is there any plans to have a public version of XML\Ada with the GNAT
>> Modified GPL?
>
>If it is a library isn't LGPL better?

I don't think its that kind of library. The LGPL works best with run-time
libraries (libxx.so, xx.dll, etc.); the kind of stuff that it makes sense to
distribute separately in binary form. Many of the provisions in it make no sense
outside of that context. Some of them are actively harmful. For instance, if I
want to make a traditional closed-source Windows program and sell it to someone,
I have to also give them a compiler and my sources so that they can compile new
versions of the library when it is released. If it were a proper Windows DLL,
they'd only need the compiler. :-)

Generally what I'd like to see is that I can use the sources in my own program,
and distribute my program under whatever license I choose, as long as I allow
access to the Free Software sources that I used (inluding any mods I made). The
GNAT-Modified GPL accomplishes that goal.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Preben Randhol]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:57:58 GMT, Ted Dennison wrote:
>>If it is a library isn't LGPL better?
> V
> I don't think its that kind of library. The LGPL works best with
> run-time libraries (libxx.so, xx.dll, etc.); the kind of stuff that it
> makes sense to distribute separately in binary form. Many of the
> provisions in it make no sense outside of that context. Some of them
> are actively harmful. For instance, if I want to make a traditional
> closed-source Windows program and sell it to someone, I have to also
> give them a compiler and my sources so that they can compile new
> versions of the library when it is released. If it were a proper
> Windows DLL, they'd only need the compiler. :-)

Ah. I see. I was thinking of XmlAda as a library. :-) As to
restictiveness I understand it is GPL > LGPL > GMGPL.

Personally I'm very happy that XmlAda is released publicly, GPL is
enough for my needs at the moment. And if you want to make a software
product you can use the GPL, though you don't have to release it
publically just to paying customers, although they can pass it on I
guess if they want to :-) GPL doesn't force you to release...

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <slrn9el67g.lo.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>, Preben
Randhol says...
>restictiveness I understand it is GPL > LGPL > GMGPL.

I wouldn't put it quite that way. The relation of each to the GPL is right, but
you can't really compare the LGPL and the GMGPL in such a simple way. I don't
think I'd ever use LGPL for anything other than a proper link/runtime library.
The GMGPL is useful for things like reusable Ada packages. Its really more of an
issue of what each is good for, not which is "more free".

>Personally I'm very happy that XmlAda is released publicly, GPL is
>enough for my needs at the moment. And if you want to make a software
>product you can use the GPL, though you don't have to release it
>publically just to paying customers, although they can pass it on I
>guess if they want to :-) GPL doesn't force you to release...

It does make it available to people working on GPL'ed Ada projects (of which I'm
one), so it is still a Good Thing.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Thierry Lelegard]

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Ted Dennison wrote :
> I don't think its that kind of library. The LGPL works best with run-time
> libraries (libxx.so, xx.dll, etc.); the kind of stuff that it makes sense to
> distribute separately in binary form. Many of the provisions in it make no sense
> outside of that context.

I am not a lawyer (far from that), not even a GNU lawyer. However, I used
to think that LGPL precisely does not apply to shareable libraries (.so),
but only to object libraries (.a).

When you distribute a commercial software on Linux (for instance), you do
NOT redistribute any .so file, you use the one that is on the end-user's
system. On the other hand, you redistribute part of the content of the
.a files. This is why, in my opinion, LGPL applies to .a files, while
GPL is fine for .so files.

Am I wrong?

After all, forking a process running the user's "ls" executable (under GPL)
or dynamically invoking a routine from the user's libreadline.so (also
under GPL, unlike libc.so which is under LGLP) makes no difference in
terms of software redistribution.

-Thierry
____________________________________________________________________________

Thierry Lelegard, "The Jazzing Troll", Email: thierry.lelegard@canal-plus.fr
CANAL+ Technologies, 34 place Raoul Dautry, 75906 Paris Cedex 15, France
Tel: +33 1 71 71 54 30   Fax: +33 1 71 71 52 08   Mobile: +33 6 03 00 65 75
____________________________________________________________________________

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Starner]

On Thu, 03 May 2001 16:39:51 +0200, Thierry Lelegard <thierry.lelegard@canal-plus.fr> wrote:
> I am not a lawyer (far from that), not even a GNU lawyer. However, I used
> to think that LGPL precisely does not apply to shareable libraries (.so),
> but only to object libraries (.a).
> 
> When you distribute a commercial software on Linux (for instance), you do
> NOT redistribute any .so file, you use the one that is on the end-user's
> system. On the other hand, you redistribute part of the content of the
> .a files. This is why, in my opinion, LGPL applies to .a files, while
> GPL is fine for .so files.

The FSF doesn't agree; in their opinion, a lot of the technical 
arguments are moot, as what will rule the day in court is the legal
arguments. And in their opinion, linking is linking, and will be 
treated the same in court. 

In general, most people who use GPL for libaries intend for it work
the way the FSF says it works. Taking your approach with someone else's
library without their permission may find you in court, or at least 
the target of a lot of pissed-off free software people.

-- 
David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org
Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org
"I don't care if Bill personally has my name and reads my email and 
laughs at me. In fact, I'd be rather honored." - Joseph_Greg

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Tarjei T. Jensen]

David Starner wrote
>The FSF doesn't agree; in their opinion, a lot of the technical
>arguments are moot, as what will rule the day in court is the legal
>arguments. And in their opinion, linking is linking, and will be
>treated the same in court.

That would depend on you loading/linking the entire library. If you on the
other hand do this under program control (like it is common in VMS) they
will have problems, especially if the library in question is one of many.

A common technique in VMS is to load e.g. policy libraries at runtime. That
means that the people developing the libraries does it against a
specification. If you GPL your library, it does not infect the main program.
One thing I really miss in Ada is a common way of linking routines etc in a
dll at runtime (on a general computer). That would be a very powerful
feature.


>In general, most people who use GPL for libaries intend for it work
>the way the FSF says it works. Taking your approach with someone else's
>library without their permission may find you in court, or at least
>the target of a lot of pissed-off free software people.

That may well be the case.

Greetings,

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Thierry Lelegard]

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> > I am not a lawyer (far from that), not even a GNU lawyer. However, I used
> > to think that LGPL precisely does not apply to shareable libraries (.so),
> > but only to object libraries (.a).
> >
> > When you distribute a commercial software on Linux (for instance), you do
> > NOT redistribute any .so file, you use the one that is on the end-user's
> > system. On the other hand, you redistribute part of the content of the
> > .a files. This is why, in my opinion, LGPL applies to .a files, while
> > GPL is fine for .so files.
> 
> The FSF doesn't agree; in their opinion, a lot of the technical
> arguments are moot, as what will rule the day in court is the legal
> arguments. And in their opinion, linking is linking, and will be
> treated the same in court.

OK, let's be specific.

Consider a GPL executable file (say the GNU "ls") and a GPL shared
library (say "libfoo.so").

1) You say that referencing the symbol "foo" from libfoo.so and linking
   against libfoo.so makes your application fall under GPL. Right?

2) If you write (C code, sorry):

     system ("ls");

   your application does not fall under GPL because you don't *link*
   against the executable file "ls". Right?

3) Now let's assume that you don't reference the symbol "foo" any more
   and you replace your procedure call by:

     handle = dlopen ("libfoo.so", ...);
     foo_p = dlsym (handle, "foo");
     (*foo_p) (....);

   You no longer *link* against libfoo.so. There is no stronger interaction
   between your application and libfoo.so than you have with "ls" when you
   use system().

   However, the result is technically identical to point 1.

   So, do you fall under GPL in this case?

The word "link" no longer have a specific meaning these days...

-Thierry
____________________________________________________________________________

Thierry Lelegard, "The Jazzing Troll", Email: thierry.lelegard@canal-plus.fr
CANAL+ Technologies, 34 place Raoul Dautry, 75906 Paris Cedex 15, France
Tel: +33 1 71 71 54 30   Fax: +33 1 71 71 52 08   Mobile: +33 6 03 00 65 75
____________________________________________________________________________

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[tmoran]

>1) You say that referencing the symbol "foo" from libfoo.so and linking
>   against libfoo.so makes your application fall under GPL. Right?
  Your *application* isn't GPLed, but the executable file produced by
the linker is GPLed.

>     handle = dlopen ("libfoo.so", ...);
>     foo_p = dlsym (handle, "foo");
>     (*foo_p) (....);
>
>   You no longer *link* against libfoo.so. There is no stronger interaction
>   between your application and libfoo.so than you have with "ls" when you
>   use system().
>
>   However, the result is technically identical to point 1.
  No it isn't.  In (1) you are distributing a file that contains
material copyrighted (GPL) by someone else, while in (2) you are
distributing a program whose documentation says "to run this you
will need to have a copy of ... on your system."
  It's not a question of strength of interaction.  It's a question
of what's in the file(s) you are distributing copies of.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Thierry Lelegard]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1653 bytes --]

tmoran@acm.org a �crit :
> 
> >1) You say that referencing the symbol "foo" from libfoo.so and linking
> >   against libfoo.so makes your application fall under GPL. Right?
>   Your *application* isn't GPLed, but the executable file produced by
> the linker is GPLed.
> 
> >     handle = dlopen ("libfoo.so", ...);
> >     foo_p = dlsym (handle, "foo");
> >     (*foo_p) (....);
> >
> >   You no longer *link* against libfoo.so. There is no stronger interaction
> >   between your application and libfoo.so than you have with "ls" when you
> >   use system().
> >
> >   However, the result is technically identical to point 1.
>   No it isn't.  In (1) you are distributing a file that contains
> material copyrighted (GPL) by someone else, while in (2) you are
> distributing a program whose documentation says "to run this you
> will need to have a copy of ... on your system."
>   It's not a question of strength of interaction.  It's a question
> of what's in the file(s) you are distributing copies of.

No, I don't agree. When you link against a shared library (.so), you
don't include anything from the .so file. You just mark a reference
and you need the .so file on the target system. So, in both cases you
don't redistribute anything that is GPL'ed.

-- Thierry
____________________________________________________________________________

Thierry Lelegard, "The Jazzing Troll", Email: thierry.lelegard@canal-plus.fr
CANAL+ Technologies, 34 place Raoul Dautry, 75906 Paris Cedex 15, France
Tel: +33 1 71 71 54 30   Fax: +33 1 71 71 52 08   Mobile: +33 6 03 00 65 75
____________________________________________________________________________

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Emmanuel Briot]

(I am posted this message on behalf of Robert Dewar for the second time.
 For some reason, the first time never made it to the newsgroup. Sorry
 if it might seem a little bit out of context, especially since I
 am not directly replying to the intended message, and thus am breaking
 the threading -- Emmanuel)


A note on the licensing of the XML libraries

The XML libraries are currently licensed under the GPL, allowing free
use in free software, but deliberately limiting use in software with
restricted distribution. This is intentional, and there are two reasons
for this. First these are beta libraries and it is entirely premature
for anyone to assume that the interfaces are fixed and to incorporate
them into any mission critical software.

Second, we are for this library inclined to license and distribute
this library in such a manner that they can be freely used by our
commercial paying customers, and also freely used by writers
of free software and students and others learning Ada.

This emphasizes that these are the constituencies to whom GNAT is
addressed. It is true that it may discourage some use in non-free
software, but we hope it may also encourage some people to consider
writing free software instead of non-free software. True, a byproduct
is that it makes it impossible for non-customers to use the library
to create proprietary products, but we have never targetted this
constituency in any case.

Ted said

> I was around before that exception existed. What happened was that someone
> piped up saying that their lawyers wouldn't allow them to use Gnat for their
> projec as they were of the opinion that linking GPL-ed packages into their
> program would require them to make the whole program GPL-ed.

This is what Winston Churchill would call a "terminological inexactitude"
[my first dratf said "complete and utter nonsense" :-)]. The original NYU
contract with the government required that the compiler runtime library be
licensed using the LGPL (because that is what I suggested to Chris), and
the reason was that we wanted the GNAT compiler itself to be as widely
usable as possible. Of course everyone involved understood what the GPL
meant. We did not need to wait for some miscellaneous lawyers to give
the (obviously correct) opinion that linking GPL-ed packages into a
program either requires you not to distribute the program, or to
distribute it under the GPL.

As the project developed at NYU, we discussed the matter with Stallman
and others and decided to use use the more permissive GMGPL instead of
the LGPL, because the LGPL is a pain in the neck (it assumes a rather
obsolete model of linking, does not take care of generics, and requires
distribution as object files, so it really does not achieve its objectives
very well). This change was accepted. There has never ever been a version
of GNAT with a GPL'ed runtime (before or after Ted's starting to be around)

So Ted is quite wrong here (really Ted, you should check your facts before
you post, one of the reasons I have decided to spend far less time with
CLA - I only read occasionally when someone points out a thread - is that
there is so much misinformation and ill-informed opinion expressed!).

Al Christians said

> What is the chance that any of the recipients of the GNAT-Modified
> GPLed versions of the library would allow a copy to slip into general
> circulation with the GNAT-Modified license attached?

Contrary to what was posted here, we have not decided to release any
versions of this library with a GMGPL license. The form of license to
our customers [really the only formal licenses that exist, since the
informal licenses where there is no contractual relationship are odd
legal beasts of dubious validity] has not yet been determined.

Ted said

> Why not just use the same lever that you do with the Ada compiler? You could
> claim that the only versions of XML\Ada certified to pass the XML conformance
> suites (or whatever it is they call them) are the ones you directly distribute
> to customers.

This is not a matter of "levers" at all, but rather a way of making clear
what constituencies Ada Core Technologies is addressing with both its
commercial and public releases, something that has not always been clear
to everyone in the past.

Peter Hendon said

> I have been working on an ADA implementation of an XML parser, DOM and
> tools. These would have the purpose stated above, and I nearly scrapped
> that project when I first read the announcement. Now... we'll see. It needs
> some serious (re-)work before I release it anyway. If I do, it will be GMGPL.

Well that's one good by-product of our decision already. It would have been
a shame if distributing this library had inhibited Peter from continuing his
work. It will benefit everyone in the Ada community if there are alternative
solutions to such problems. Note Peter that although the code we distribute
is copyrighted, we never protect with patents, and the important point there
is that you are not only free, but welcome, to look at our sources and borrow
any good ideas you see!

I will ask Emmanuel Briot to post this (I must say I feel that Deja did me
a favor in cutting off my connection to CLA :- I have much more time for
other activities, like improving GNAT!)

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

I guess the only answer to this "official" position is thank you for
distributing your code at least as GPL, it could have been a worse blow to
the Ada community.

Are you intending on extending this policy at some point to the GNAT
runtime, GtkAda or other frameworks (executables of course have always been
GPL) under the ACT wing?

David Botton

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

Will packages like XML\Ada that are under the new ACT policy be available
for purchase or under a very low price minimal support contract that are
reasonable for small time developers?

(The guys at RR Software must be loving this new policy :-)

David Botton

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <l84rv1tul9.fsf@berlin.int.act-europe.fr>, Emmanuel Briot says...
>(I am posted this message on behalf of Robert Dewar for the second time.
> For some reason, the first time never made it to the newsgroup. Sorry

Since a copy was cc-ed to me, I too was wondering where it was. I'm glad to see
it finally appear, as it has some good info in it (despite the personal
attacks).

>So Ted is quite wrong here (really Ted, you should check your facts before
>you post, one of the reasons I have decided to spend far less time with

Now perhaps you can see why I got so defensive all of a sudden. I'll leave it up
to everyone else's judgement whether what I said was reasonably close to the
truth, based on the old messages I referenced. What started that thread that
contained the RMS suggestion to use a modified GPL is unfortunately lost to the
mists of time, but my memory of it was that someone piped up about their lawyers
refusing to allow use of GNAT due to the GPL/LGPL issue. 

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Emmanuel Briot]

"David Botton" <David@Botton.com> writes:

> Is there any plans to have a public version of XML\Ada with the GNAT
> Modified GPL?

This is not the plan currently.
We will release soon some GNAT-Modified GPLed versions of the library to
our customers that want support for XML/Ada and want to use it in their
proprietary application.
However, we will probably leave the public versions under the GPL. This means
that people can easily use this library for student projects, and for testing
the technology.

Note: All these decisions are not fully discussed yet, we are still
examining them at Ada Core Technologies.
I also don't speak for the marketing team :-)

Emmanuel

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

It would be sad to see ACT start to use a CYGNUS model of business.

I hope for the sake of Ada a decision will be made to keep the model as is
and release products like this in a way that I believe helps promote Ada,
under the GNAT Modified GPL. Perhaps once Ada has replaced C++ as the
language of choice by most we can look to furthering the FSF's agenda
instead of our own, that of Ada.

Just as an example, I would love to make use of the XML/Ada as part of my
Ada projects, but would almost never do so if it was under the GPL or LGPL
since it would encumber my packages that are always released under GMGPL
(tools are of course under the regular GPL).

Please reconsider and _ANY ONE ELSE_ who is looking to release Ada packages
please don't step in to this trend. If you need more explanation as to why a
regular GPL or LGPL will create problems for users of your packages not
themselves releasing code under GPL/LGPL, please e-mail me.

David Botton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emmanuel Briot" <briot@gnat.com>

> This is not the plan currently.
> We will release soon some GNAT-Modified GPLed versions of the library to
> our customers that want support for XML/Ada and want to use it in their
> proprietary application.
> However, we will probably leave the public versions under the GPL. This
means
> that people can easily use this library for student projects, and for
testing
> the technology.
>
> Note: All these decisions are not fully discussed yet, we are still
> examining them at Ada Core Technologies.
> I also don't speak for the marketing team :-)
>
> Emmanuel

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Peter Hend�n]

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"David Botton" wrote:
<snip>
> I hope for the sake of Ada a decision will be made to keep the model as is
> and release products like this in a way that I believe helps promote Ada,
> under the GNAT Modified GPL. Perhaps once Ada has replaced C++ as the
> language of choice by most we can look to furthering the FSF's agenda
> instead of our own, that of Ada.
Precisely. Of course, ACT can do as they please, but I believe this decision
will further neither their business, nor that of the Ada community.

Access to a good Ada implementation of XML/XSL/DOM/SAX and whatnot,
with a GMGPL along with the public GNAT and jGNAT, would help me, at
least, to pry open the doors into some Java/C++ sites for Ada.

<snip>
> Please reconsider and _ANY ONE ELSE_ who is looking to release Ada
packages
> please don't step in to this trend. If you need more explanation as to why
a
> regular GPL or LGPL will create problems for users of your packages not
> themselves releasing code under GPL/LGPL, please e-mail me.
I have been working on an ADA implementation of an XML parser, DOM and
tools. These would have the purpose stated above, and I nearly scrapped
that project when I first read the announcement. Now... we'll see. It needs
some
serious (re-)work before I release it anyway. If I do, it will be GMGPL.

Regards,
Peter
--
Peter Hend�n           http://www.algonet.se/~phenden
ICQ: 14672398
Teknisk Dokumentation AB          http://www.tdab.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Al Christians]

Emmanuel Briot wrote:
> We will release soon some GNAT-Modified GPLed versions of the library > to our customers that want support for XML/Ada and want to use it in 
> their  proprietary application.


What is the chance that any of the recipients of the GNAT-Modified 
GPLed versions of the library would allow a copy to slip into general
circulation with the GNAT-Modified license attached?  


Al

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <l866fqwjm0.fsf@berlin.int.act-europe.fr>, Emmanuel Briot says...
>
>"David Botton" <David@Botton.com> writes:
>
>> Is there any plans to have a public version of XML\Ada with the GNAT
>> Modified GPL?
>
>This is not the plan currently.

Ahhh. I'd foolishly assumed that the GPL was only going to be used for 0.x
releases.

>We will release soon some GNAT-Modified GPLed versions of the library to
>our customers that want support for XML/Ada and want to use it in their
>proprietary application.

You do realize that the GNAT-Modified GPL does not prevent your customers from
redistributing the software you give them to anyone/everyone else with the
GMGPL? Using easier Free Software licenses as a sales lever may only net you all
of 1 extra customer. :-)  But then you guys know way more about this business
than I do...

>However, we will probably leave the public versions under the GPL. This means
>that people can easily use this library for student projects, and for testing
>the technology.

That just means that XML\Ada will most likely *not* become the one standard Ada
XML parser, and someone else will probably end up writing a competing parser
under licensing terms more akin to the GMGPL.

Why not just use the same lever that you do with the Ada compiler? You could
claim that the only versions of XML\Ada certified to pass the XML conformance
suites (or whatever it is they call them) are the ones you directly distribute
to customers.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <IkhG6.957$SZ5.77576@www.newsranger.com>, Ted Dennison says...
>Why not just use the same lever that you do with the Ada compiler? You could
>claim that the only versions of XML\Ada certified to pass the XML conformance
>suites (or whatever it is they call them) are the ones you directly distribute
>to customers.

Ahhh. Its "XML Conformance Test Suite". See
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xmltest/testsuite.htm (but not with
Mozilla. :-( ). 

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Starner]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:43:20 GMT, Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote:
> You do realize that the GNAT-Modified GPL does not prevent your customers from
> redistributing the software you give them to anyone/everyone else with the
> GMGPL? 

I've never seen a wavefront release of GNAT, so it may not be much
different. In any case, that will just be one release; unless 
someone puts a lot of work into that copy, it will soon by obsolete
wrt the latest versions from ACT.

-- 
David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org
Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org
"I don't care if Bill personally has my name and reads my email and 
laughs at me. In fact, I'd be rather honored." - Joseph_Greg

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[David Botton]

What makes you think the exact GMGPL would be used? I am sure that if it is
ACT's intention to prevent its distribution they can easily add a clause to
do so. It is their code after all to do with as they please and restrict in
any way they please.

David Botton

"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:IkhG6.957>

> You do realize that the GNAT-Modified GPL does not prevent your customers
from
> redistributing the software you give them to anyone/everyone else with the
> GMGPL? Using easier Free Software licenses as a sales lever may only net
you all
> of 1 extra customer. :-)  But then you guys know way more about this
business
> than I do...

Re: [ANNOUNCE] XML/Ada 0.5 released

[Ted Dennison]

In article <mailman.988397900.7618.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, David Botton
says...
>
>What makes you think the exact GMGPL would be used? I am sure that if it is
>ACT's intention to prevent its distribution they can easily add a clause to
>do so. It is their code after all to do with as they please and restrict in
>any way they please.
>
>"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:IkhG6.957>
>
>> You do realize that the GNAT-Modified GPL does not prevent your customers
>> from redistributing the software you give them to anyone/everyone else with >> from GMGPL? Using easier Free Software licenses as a sales lever may only net

Because that's what the message I was replying to speculated would be used. 

Personally I'd agree that it would make no sense to use the GMGPL for a
"customer release" under this scenario. In fact, that was what I was trying to
point out. I suppose they could refuse to do business with anyone who just turns
around and redistributes it. But if they are going to do that, why pretend to
give them that right in the license? They might as well be honest about it and
use a closed-source license.

---
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