Best option for portable GUI?

Best option for portable GUI?

[Jano]

Hello everybody.

I'm near to start a project of some size using Ada. I intend to make
it portable, at least between Windows and Linux.

Part of this project is a GUI. I have no previous experience out of
the Win32 API, but I guess there are some libraries for GUIs in Ada
that would help me in my objective of portability. I seek advice on
what one to choose, because I'll need to learn it in detail.

I've heard of some options:

GtkAda: Seems a good option but with steep learning curve?

GWindows: it's portable?

Claw: isn't free... 

Could you be so kind to offer some advice? Some candidates I don't
know of?

Thanks in advance,

A. Mosteo.

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Peter Hermann]

Jano <402450@cepsz.unizar.es> wrote:
> I'm near to start a project of some size using Ada. I intend to make
> it portable, at least between Windows and Linux.
> Could you be so kind to offer some advice? Some candidates I don't
> know of?

ftp://ftp.usafa.af.mil/pub/dfcs/carlisle/usafa/rapid/index.html

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Dale Stanbrough]

Jano wrote:

> Hello everybody.
> 
> I'm near to start a project of some size using Ada. I intend to make
> it portable, at least between Windows and Linux.
> 
> Part of this project is a GUI. I have no previous experience out of
> the Win32 API, but I guess there are some libraries for GUIs in Ada
> that would help me in my objective of portability. I seek advice on
> what one to choose, because I'll need to learn it in detail.
> 
> I've heard of some options:
> 
> GtkAda: Seems a good option but with steep learning curve?
> 
> GWindows: it's portable?
> 
> Claw: isn't free... 
>

another is Qt...

Dale

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Grein, Christoph]

> I've heard of some options:
> 
> GtkAda: Seems a good option but with steep learning curve?
> 
> Claw: isn't free... 

The intro version is free (GMGPL)

Personally, I've found Claw more intuitive and easier to use than GtkAda.

But Claw is bound to Windows, GtkAda can run on both, Windows and Linux.

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Jeffrey Creem]

"Jano" <402450@cepsz.unizar.es> wrote in message
news:5d6fdb61.0301170303.625bc6c9@posting.google.com...
>
> GtkAda: Seems a good option but with steep learning curve?
>

Try to create a simple user interface with glade/gtkada. I think you will
find that the learning curve is not
all that steep.

Once you accept the way widgets are typically packed in Gtk it is actually
pretty simple.

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Marin David Condic]

Both have their advantages. GtkAda has as its biggest advantage that it can
run in a number of places. Claw has as its advantage that it is easier to
use and more intuitive - especially for those used to building Windows apps.
GtkAda has the resizable widgets that may be more attractive to some but
makes it a) difficult to learn how to use and b) difficult to get a nice
looking window constructed without lots of experience. It has improved some
in that there are various documents floating around that help get you up to
speed, but not all in one nice, convenient location and it tends to suffer
from that "Well, go look at the C code and the C documentation and then
you'll understand..." syndrome. I like Claw, but it is hard to argue with
the portability factor in GtkAda if you consider that at all important to
your project.

It would be nice to see Ada evolve some sort of standard, portable GUI in a
manner similar to what Java does - use a graphics engine and some flavor of
XML to build a GUI server.

MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jast.mil/

Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g

    "I'd trade it all for just a little more"
        --  Charles Montgomery Burns, [4F10]
======================================================================

Grein, Christoph <christoph.grein@eurocopter.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2.1042803271.18144.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
>
> The intro version is free (GMGPL)
>
> Personally, I've found Claw more intuitive and easier to use than GtkAda.
>
> But Claw is bound to Windows, GtkAda can run on both, Windows and Linux.

XML GUI, was Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[tmoran]

> XML to build a GUI server.
  Pardon my ignorance, but can you draw real-time moving images
with XML?  For instance a picture that morphs between dog and cat
as you drag the mouse left and right?  Or does GUI mean essentially
text and static images?

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Jano]

En el mensaje <b08oka$4a1$1@news.uni-stuttgart.de>, 
ica2ph@iris16.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de dice...
> Jano <402450@cepsz.unizar.es> wrote:
> > I'm near to start a project of some size using Ada. I intend to make
> > it portable, at least between Windows and Linux.
> > Could you be so kind to offer some advice? Some candidates I don't
> > know of?
> 
> ftp://ftp.usafa.af.mil/pub/dfcs/carlisle/usafa/rapid/index.html

Wow. Sounds promising.

I see it's another layer over the real interface implementor. Could it 
be said that it's equivalent to Glade for GtkAda?

The multiple targets listed made it very interesting, though.

-- 
-------------------------
Jano
402450[at]cepsz.unizar.es
-------------------------

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Jano]

En el mensaje <9xSV9.19610$hl1.1632@sccrnsc04>, jeff@thecreems.com 
dice...
> 
> "Jano" <402450@cepsz.unizar.es> wrote in message
> news:5d6fdb61.0301170303.625bc6c9@posting.google.com...
> >
> > GtkAda: Seems a good option but with steep learning curve?
> >
> 
> Try to create a simple user interface with glade/gtkada. I think you will
> find that the learning curve is not
> all that steep.
> 
> Once you accept the way widgets are typically packed in Gtk it is actually
> pretty simple.

I must say I'm impressed with GVD. 

I'm getting a hard time trying to compile the testgtk folder, but if I 
continue without success I'll post in the gtkada mailing list to not go 
off-topic.

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Martin Dowie]

> Claw: isn't free... 

There are free versions of Claw but it isn't ported to Linux that I know of.

RE: XML GUI, was Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Robert C. Leif]

Yes, one uses scalable vector graphics (SVG) for animation.
Bob Leif

-----Original Message-----
From: tmoran@acm.org [mailto:tmoran@acm.org] 
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 6:23 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: XML GUI, was Re: Best option for portable GUI?

> XML to build a GUI server.
  Pardon my ignorance, but can you draw real-time moving images
with XML?  For instance a picture that morphs between dog and cat
as you drag the mouse left and right?  Or does GUI mean essentially
text and static images?

RE: Best option for portable GUI?

[Robert C. Leif]

This is now becoming feasible. The next portable GUI should employ XForms.
For Windows this can be downloaded from http://www.formsplayer.com/
Frankly, since the literature posted at this site did not include a complete
working example, I had to ask for help on their Yahoo list. A gentleman
kindly sent me an example, which I will gladly e-mail to interested parties.
The bottom line is that one no longer needs JavaScript or the equivalent.
The combination of an Ada binding to XForms and an extended version of Tom
Moran's Simple_Server would be ideal for embedded applications. The use of
XForms and XML with the A# .NET compiler would permit the development of
very powerful Windows applications, which could be ported to other operating
systems. 
Bob Leif

-----Original Message-----
From: Marin David Condic [mailto:mcondic.auntie.spam@acm.org] 
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 5:32 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: Best option for portable GUI?

Both have their advantages. GtkAda has as its biggest advantage that it can
run in a number of places. Claw has as its advantage that it is easier to
use and more intuitive - especially for those used to building Windows apps.
GtkAda has the resizable widgets that may be more attractive to some but
makes it a) difficult to learn how to use and b) difficult to get a nice
looking window constructed without lots of experience. It has improved some
in that there are various documents floating around that help get you up to
speed, but not all in one nice, convenient location and it tends to suffer
from that "Well, go look at the C code and the C documentation and then
you'll understand..." syndrome. I like Claw, but it is hard to argue with
the portability factor in GtkAda if you consider that at all important to
your project.

It would be nice to see Ada evolve some sort of standard, portable GUI in a
manner similar to what Java does - use a graphics engine and some flavor of
XML to build a GUI server.

MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jast.mil/

Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g

    "I'd trade it all for just a little more"
        --  Charles Montgomery Burns, [4F10]
======================================================================

Grein, Christoph <christoph.grein@eurocopter.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2.1042803271.18144.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
>
> The intro version is free (GMGPL)
>
> Personally, I've found Claw more intuitive and easier to use than GtkAda.
>
> But Claw is bound to Windows, GtkAda can run on both, Windows and Linux.

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[David Botton]

You basicly have three options if you want a framework that is portable:

TASH
GtkAda
or any X binding and running and X Server on Windows / OSX, etc.

> I'm near to start a project of some size using Ada. I intend to make
> it portable, at least between Windows and Linux.

The other option is to design your software in a way that your GUI code is
written with the best API per platform (performance, looks, compatability
with OS services, etc.)

GtkAda for Linux and GWindows for windows  :-)

David Botton

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[achrist]

"Robert C. Leif" wrote:
> 
> This is now becoming feasible. The next portable GUI should employ XForms.
> For Windows this can be downloaded from http://www.formsplayer.com/

The site says that the client uses the web browser.  This is ok,
but it says for Windows use IE 6. 

What other browsers work with XForms?

I assume that 'portable' can't mean that we have to use IE 6.

Al

Re: XML GUI, was Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Dale Stanbrough]

tmoran@acm.org wrote:

>   Pardon my ignorance, but can you draw real-time moving images
> with XML?  For instance a picture that morphs between dog and cat
> as you drag the mouse left and right?  Or does GUI mean essentially
> text and static images?

<transition>
   <morph>
      <from dog>
      <to cat>
   </morph>
</transition>

Of course XML doesn't draw anything. It specifies things.
Apple have used PDF as the specification language for their interface.
Why not XML?

dale

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Jano]

I'm narrowing my selection to Rapid or GtkAda. I'm currently
downloading both of them to try.

I know absolutely nothing about Rapid but its targetting options
including Mac seem very attractive. Someone has used it? Also, using
.NET targetting I assume that native look&feel is the result. That's
also a plus.

For what have been said about layout management of GtkAda, I guess
it's similar to Java AWT in that no absolute positioning it's made.
I'm ok with that. However, I've read at libre-act that GtkAda can be
instructed to sport "native" looking. It's that true? I searched some
time ago for that option in GVD but to no avail.

Many thanks to all of you for your replies.

Re: XML GUI, was Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Eric G. Miller]

In article <2lUV9.22373$Yq3.6351@sccrnsc02>, tmoran@acm.org wrote:
>> XML to build a GUI server.
>   Pardon my ignorance, but can you draw real-time moving images
> with XML?  For instance a picture that morphs between dog and cat
> as you drag the mouse left and right?  Or does GUI mean essentially
> text and static images?

With the libglade for gtk (not the GNAT GLADE), the XML connects
callbacks to widgets like a pixbuf.  AFAIK, once the XML is parsed into
the widgets and callbacks and instantiated, it's running whatever code
you've hooked to the widgets.  So, I guess "real-time" at that point is
up to the OS ;-)  I've no idea if there's a libgladeada type of thing
with the GtkAda binding...

-- 
echo ">gra.fcw@2ztr< eryyvZ .T pveR" | rot13 | reverse

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Eric G. Miller]

In article <3E284969.85FF8394@easystreet.com>, achrist@easystreet.com wrote:
> "Robert C. Leif" wrote:
>> 
>> This is now becoming feasible. The next portable GUI should employ XForms.
>> For Windows this can be downloaded from http://www.formsplayer.com/
> 
> The site says that the client uses the web browser.  This is ok,
> but it says for Windows use IE 6. 
> 
> What other browsers work with XForms?

XForms is still just a candidate standard.  However, my take is XForms
is a a better HTML forms method, but not necessarily rich enough to
specify a general GUI.  I could be wrong...

-- 
echo ">gra.fcw@2ztr< eryyvZ .T pveR" | rot13 | reverse

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Ed Cogburn]

Dale Stanbrough wrote:
> Jano wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hello everybody.
>>
>>I'm near to start a project of some size using Ada. I intend to make
>>it portable, at least between Windows and Linux.
>>
>>Part of this project is a GUI. I have no previous experience out of
>>the Win32 API, but I guess there are some libraries for GUIs in Ada
>>that would help me in my objective of portability. I seek advice on
>>what one to choose, because I'll need to learn it in detail.
>>
>>I've heard of some options:
>>
>>GtkAda: Seems a good option but with steep learning curve?
>>
>>GWindows: it's portable?
>>
>>Claw: isn't free... 
>>
> 
> 
> another is Qt...


The questioner didn't state how important it was, but keep in mind that Qt 
isn't free (as in access to source code) on the Windows side, it is on the 
Linux side.

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[David C. Hoos, Sr.]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric G. Miller" <felix@calico.local>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada
To: <comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>
Sent: January 18, 2003 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: Best option for portable GUI?


> In article <3E284969.85FF8394@easystreet.com>, achrist@easystreet.com wrote:
> > "Robert C. Leif" wrote:
> >> 
> >> This is now becoming feasible. The next portable GUI should employ XForms.
> >> For Windows this can be downloaded from http://www.formsplayer.com/
> > 
> > The site says that the client uses the web browser.  This is ok,
> > but it says for Windows use IE 6. 
> > 
> > What other browsers work with XForms?
> 
> XForms is still just a candidate standard.  However, my take is XForms
> is a a better HTML forms method, but not necessarily rich enough to
> specify a general GUI.  I could be wrong...
> 
XForms is not just for GUIs -- it's for UIs.  E.g., the UI could be aural
instead of visual, or it could be for touch-tome telephones as a UI device.
It's not ready for prime time, but it's an idea whose time has come.

It's main idea seems to be the separation of data, presentation and logic.
  
> -- 
> echo ">gra.fcw@2ztr< eryyvZ .T pveR" | rot13 | reverse
> _______________________________________________
> comp.lang.ada mailing list
> comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
> http://ada.eu.org/mailman/listinfo/comp.lang.ada
> 
> 

Re: XML GUI, was Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[Marin David Condic]

Well, gee, I don't know. I've never tried. :-) Maybe with the speed of
today's computers and a fast enough communication link it might actually
work O.K.

Just because a particular approach would not be amenable to *every* possible
application doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried or might not be a suitable
direction down which to go. For example: Are web pages across the internet
suitable to that sort of realtime animation? Not usually, but that doesn't
stop them from being a suitable interface for truckloads of applications. In
a situation like this you have to pick a direction and go there without
worrying about the fact that it isn't perfect for everything.

It would seem that defining and adopting some approach to doing GUIs with
Ada as a "standard" and "portable" means of user I/O would be a good thing.
If it was innovative and unique enough - providing features not commonly
seen in Windows or Linux or Mac apps, it might create a kind of "product
distinction" and an incentive to use Ada to get these extra capabilities. It
might possibly provide large amounts of developmental leverage that would
create an incentive for using Ada. People might say "I want that GUI... Oh?
I have to program in Ada to use that GUI? O.K. I guess we'll switch to that
language..." Its happened before.

MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jast.mil/

Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g

    "I'd trade it all for just a little more"
        --  Charles Montgomery Burns, [4F10]
======================================================================

<tmoran@acm.org> wrote in message news:2lUV9.22373$Yq3.6351@sccrnsc02...
> > XML to build a GUI server.
>   Pardon my ignorance, but can you draw real-time moving images
> with XML?  For instance a picture that morphs between dog and cat
> as you drag the mouse left and right?  Or does GUI mean essentially
> text and static images?

RE: Best option for portable GUI?

[Robert C. Leif]

XForms is a W3C standard. There are implementations on other operating
systems. Please see http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/
Obviously, an Ada implementation of an Ada plug-in for XForms would be my
preference.
Bob Leif

-----Original Message-----
From: achrist@easystreet.com [mailto:achrist@easystreet.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:20 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: Best option for portable GUI?

"Robert C. Leif" wrote:
> 
> This is now becoming feasible. The next portable GUI should employ XForms.
> For Windows this can be downloaded from http://www.formsplayer.com/

The site says that the client uses the web browser.  This is ok,
but it says for Windows use IE 6. 

What other browsers work with XForms?

I assume that 'portable' can't mean that we have to use IE 6.

Al

Re: Best option for portable GUI?

[jim hopper]

A Mac OSX native version of Gtk is now avaliable.  its still not
totally complete but its getting there fast.  we havent tried GtkAda
with it yet but it should work fine.

jim
www.adapower.net/macos

In article <5d6fdb61.0301171640.65193f50@posting.google.com>, Jano
<402450@cepsz.unizar.es> wrote:

> I know absolutely nothing about Rapid but its targetting options
> including Mac seem very attractive. Someone has used it? Also, using
> .NET targetting I assume that native look&feel is the result. That's
> also a plus.

RE: Best option for portable GUI?

[Robert C. Leif]

" XForms is still just a candidate standard.  However, my take is XForms
is a a better HTML forms method, but not necessarily rich enough to
specify a general GUI.  I could be wrong..."
You probably are. Since XForms can work with both XSL and SVG, it has a very
rich environment. It is much more than "a better HTML forms method". It
includes most of the required functionality supplied by JavaScript. The
other required functionality should be supplied by Ada.
XForms is a candidate recommendation, which usually means that it will have
very few changes prior to becoming a W3 standard.
Bob Leif

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric G. Miller [mailto:felix@calico.local] 
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 3:18 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: Best option for portable GUI?

In article <3E284969.85FF8394@easystreet.com>, achrist@easystreet.com wrote:
> "Robert C. Leif" wrote:
>> 
>> This is now becoming feasible. The next portable GUI should employ
XForms.
>> For Windows this can be downloaded from http://www.formsplayer.com/
> 
> The site says that the client uses the web browser.  This is ok,
> but it says for Windows use IE 6. 
> 
> What other browsers work with XForms?

XForms is still just a candidate standard.  However, my take is XForms
is a a better HTML forms method, but not necessarily rich enough to
specify a general GUI.  I could be wrong...

-- 
echo ">gra.fcw@2ztr< eryyvZ .T pveR" | rot13 | reverse