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From: "Alexandre E. Kopilovitch" <aek@vib.usr.pu.ru>
To: comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org
Subject: Re: += in ada
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 03:24:57 +0400 (MSD)
Date: 2003-10-21T03:24:57+04:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <mailman.125.1066692633.25614.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3F94332E.3010500@comcast.net>; from "Robert I. Eachus" at Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:11:07 GMT

Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> The
> key issue was abstraction.  Some programmers just couldn't get it.  They
> could generated decent code in C or assembler, but when it came to Ada,
> they, like Joe, couldn't accept the idea of abstraction and information
> hiding.  There may have been some way to reach those programmers, but we
> didn't find it.  Anyone who gets information hiding tends to love Ada.

Well, I don't like when information is hidden from me. But I certainly like
to hide information from others, especially if I suspect that they will use
that information in wrong way (for example, devaluating or even destroy it).
And yes, as you may guess, I like to hide (or save -;) information from myself
being in some improper state. So, I tolerate this concept.

But this concept sometimes is (yes, really is) a powerful weapon in hands of
fools. There are cases where some design is simply wrong because it hides too
much information (making desired functionality impossible), and every attempt
to correct it leads only to a lecture about importance of information hiding.
That's trivial - they are so proud that they managed to hide some significant
piece of information that they become unable to listen why this information is
needed to other parts of the system.

So, what I certainly dislike is the term "information hiding". It is no much
better than infamous "total informational awareness" -;) . I like "information
structuring", I agree with various boundaries and safety checkpoints, hierachies,
access levels and rights, etc., etc., but not with simple and popular "hiding".




Alexander Kopilovitch                      aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
Saint-Petersburg
Russia




  parent reply	other threads:[~2003-10-20 23:24 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 303+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-09-25 16:25 += in ada Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-01  8:35 ` Peter Amey
2003-10-01 12:38   ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-10-03 16:22     ` Isaac Gouy
2003-10-06 20:21       ` Russ
2003-10-06 22:47         ` (see below)
2003-10-04 20:17   ` Craig Carey
2003-10-06  7:36     ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2003-10-06  8:13       ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-06 22:49       ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-01 14:06 ` Gautier
2003-10-02 12:26   ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-02 13:03     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-02 13:36       ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-02 21:28         ` Keith Thompson
2003-10-07  0:41           ` Russ
2003-10-07 10:05             ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-07 11:56               ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-07 14:02                 ` (see below)
2003-10-07 22:22                   ` Russ
2003-10-07 23:52                     ` (see below)
2003-10-08  6:08                     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-09 19:07                       ` Russ
2003-10-09 19:42                         ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
     [not found]                           ` <25oh51-uu2.ln1@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-10-10  7:37                             ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-10 18:56                               ` Russ
2003-10-11  8:10                                 ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-11  8:30                                 ` Samuel Tardieu
2003-10-10 12:09                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-10  7:34                         ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-12  0:50                           ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-12  8:24                             ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-12 14:57                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-12 18:37                                 ` (see below)
2003-10-13  0:42                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-13  8:32                                     ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-13 19:18                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-13 23:36                                     ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-10-14  6:14                                       ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-14 15:19                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-30 21:43                                     ` ARG process (was += in ada) Randy Brukardt
2003-10-30 23:21                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-10 20:31                         ` += in ada Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-12  8:23                           ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-14 18:00                           ` Russ
2003-10-14 18:15                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-15 12:50                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-10-15 13:25                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-15 14:04                                 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-15 15:19                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-15 18:06                                     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-15 18:53                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-15 19:34                                         ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-15 23:09                                         ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-10-16  5:05                                     ` Russ
2003-10-16 12:07                                       ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-16 13:43                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-16 23:57                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-17  6:22                                           ` Russ
2003-10-17  6:38                                             ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-17 15:48                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-19  1:15                                               ` Russ
2003-10-19 16:04                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-19 23:59                                                   ` Russ
2003-10-20  5:24                                                     ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-20  5:52                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-20 12:40                                                         ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-20 14:36                                                           ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-21  0:23                                                           ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-21  3:46                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21  6:37                                                           ` Russ
2003-10-21 10:10                                                             ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-22  5:23                                                               ` Russ
2003-10-20 14:34                                                         ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-21  7:43                                                         ` Russ
2003-10-21 12:45                                                           ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-22  7:13                                                             ` Russ
2003-10-22  8:48                                                               ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-22  9:02                                                               ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-22 18:21                                                                 ` Russ
2003-10-22 19:10                                                                   ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-23  5:24                                                                     ` + " Russ
2003-10-22 19:16                                                                   ` += " sk
2003-10-22 19:13                                                                     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-23  5:16                                                                     ` Russ
2003-10-23  5:45                                                                       ` sk
2003-10-22 21:22                                                                 ` Russ
2003-10-23  2:23                                                                   ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-22  9:46                                                               ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-22  8:01                                                             ` Russ
2003-10-21 13:38                                                           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-22  7:24                                                             ` Russ
2003-10-22 19:50                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-23  5:34                                                                 ` Russ
2003-10-23 14:14                                                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-24  9:15                                                                     ` Peter Hermann
2003-10-24 10:11                                                                       ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-26  7:35                                                                         ` Pascal Obry
2003-10-24 11:20                                                                       ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-25  3:14                                                                       ` Russ
2003-10-25  5:07                                                                     ` Russ
2003-10-19 23:19                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2003-10-20  6:16                                                   ` Russ
2003-10-20 14:31                                                     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-20 17:10                                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-20 17:53                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-20 19:11                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-20 19:32                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-20 23:24                                                           ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch [this message]
2003-10-21  0:40                                                     ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-21  3:45                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21 12:07                                                         ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-21 12:18                                                           ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-21 12:45                                                         ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-21 14:46                                                           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-21 17:54                                                             ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-21 20:23                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-22  0:18                                                             ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-22  4:07                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-22 20:41                                                                 ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-22 11:56                                                             ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-22  0:14                                                           ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-22 12:31                                                             ` Early Ada Mistakes (was: Re: += in ada) Marin David Condic
2003-10-22 20:05                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-23  4:47                                                                 ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-23 14:36                                                                   ` Early Ada Mistakes Hyman Rosen
2003-10-23 19:04                                                                     ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-24 13:33                                                                       ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-24 16:59                                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-23 19:08                                                                     ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-23 22:17                                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-24 11:26                                                                       ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-23 18:50                                                                   ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-22 21:00                                                               ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-23  4:53                                                                 ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-22  6:56                                                           ` += in ada Russ
2003-10-22  7:26                                                             ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-22 11:27                                                             ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-22 20:12                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-22 20:52                                                             ` Wes Groleau
     [not found]                                                         ` <emte61-d03.ln1@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-10-21 12:57                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21  2:43                                                 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-10-21  9:39                                                   ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-19 22:26                                               ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-16  4:31                                   ` + " Russ
2003-10-16  8:57                                     ` += " Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-16 20:56                                     ` + " Georg Bauhaus
2003-10-16  4:04                               ` += " Russ
2003-10-16  8:57                                 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-17  3:03                                 ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-17 11:46                                   ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-17 11:50                                     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-17 12:40                                       ` sk
2003-10-17 12:48                                         ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-15 14:16                             ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-16  5:40                               ` Russ
2003-10-16 12:45                                 ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-16 22:07                                   ` Russ
2003-10-17  9:10                                     ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-16 13:48                                 ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-16 20:46                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-10-17  2:37                                   ` Russ
2003-10-17  3:01                                     ` sk
2003-10-17  5:42                                       ` Russ
2003-10-17 11:26                                         ` sk
2003-10-17 20:24                                           ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-17  3:52                                     ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-17  6:32                                     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-17  8:48                                     ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-16  1:25                             ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-19 23:50                               ` Robert A Duff
2003-10-20  5:52                                 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-07 18:28                 ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-10-10 19:56                   ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-20  7:41       ` idem (Was: += in ada) Jacob Sparre Andersen
2003-10-20  8:28         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-10-20  8:34         ` (see below)
2003-10-31 22:40         ` Nick Roberts
2003-10-14  9:52   ` += in ada Stuart Palin
2003-10-16  8:49     ` Russ
2003-10-16 12:46       ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-16 13:46         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-16 15:42           ` Mark A. Biggar
2003-10-16 16:48             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-17  0:26               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-17  1:26                 ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-17  3:59                   ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-17 11:54                     ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-17 20:35                       ` Russ
2003-10-19 22:22                     ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-19  1:37                   ` Russ
2003-10-19  3:16                     ` sk
2003-10-19 14:10                     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-19 14:29                     ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-20  2:47                       ` Russ
2003-10-20  3:03                         ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-20  5:47                         ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-20 12:56                           ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-20  6:19                         ` Ross Higson
2003-10-21 17:30                           ` Russ
2003-10-21 18:40                             ` sk
2003-10-22  7:35                               ` Russ
2003-10-21 23:28                             ` Ross Higson
2003-10-21 23:55                               ` Jerry Petrey
2003-10-22  7:35                             ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-20 16:30                         ` Martin Dowie
2003-10-20 17:05                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-20 17:46                             ` Martin Dowie
2003-10-20 18:01                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21  0:57                           ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-21  1:46                             ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-21  3:38                             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21  8:49                             ` Martin Dowie
2003-10-21  9:04                             ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-21 13:00                               ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-21 13:37                                 ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-21 14:50                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-21 15:01                                     ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-21 15:03                                     ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-21 15:07                                     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-21 15:13                                       ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-21 15:58                                       ` (see below)
2003-10-21 15:24                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-10-21 16:44                                     ` Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-22  7:32                                     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-22  8:48                                       ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-22 20:24                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-27 12:01                                           ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-27 17:31                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-21 13:01                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21  4:49                           ` sk
2003-10-21 21:19                             ` Simon Wright
2003-10-22  4:37                               ` sk
2003-10-19 14:40                     ` chris
2003-10-19 15:12                     ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-19 16:26                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-20  2:02                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-20  6:12                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-20 12:50                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-20 17:53                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-20 18:03                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21  1:35                                 ` Marin David Condic
2003-10-21  3:05                             ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-10-21  3:30                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-21 13:22                                 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-10-21 15:02                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-19 21:09                     ` Dmytry Lavrov
2003-10-17 14:15                 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-17 14:40                   ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-17 15:40                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-17 15:49                       ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-17 20:43                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-17 16:02                       ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-17 16:06                         ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-19 22:36                         ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-18  0:08                   ` Russ
2003-10-18 10:31                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-10-20  5:35                   ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-20 13:00                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-20 14:27                       ` (see below)
2003-10-20 15:58                         ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-16 21:53             ` Russ
2003-10-17  8:20           ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-17 14:21             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-17 14:42               ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2003-10-17 15:46                 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-17 15:35               ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-10-17 16:02               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-17 17:20                 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-16  8:57     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-10-01  8:54 christoph.grein
2003-10-04 12:51 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-10-13  9:22 christoph.grein
2003-10-13 18:38 ` Wes Groleau
2003-10-13 18:59   ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-10-16  8:25 + " Lionel.DRAGHI
2003-10-16 13:22 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-10-16 14:30   ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2003-10-16 16:13 ` Russ
2003-10-16 21:47   ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-10-17 20:03     ` Russ
2003-10-16 15:55 Lionel.DRAGHI
2003-10-17  8:58 Lionel.DRAGHI
2003-10-20 10:42 += " christoph.grein
2003-10-21  6:16 ` Russ
2003-10-21  8:25   ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2003-10-21  8:40 += in Ada Marius Amado Alves
2003-10-21  8:41 += in ada christoph.grein
2003-10-22  5:00 ` Russ
2003-10-21  8:53 christoph.grein
2003-10-21 13:48 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2003-10-22  7:31   ` Russ
2003-10-22  8:02     ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-22 11:41       ` Stephane Richard
2003-10-22 15:17       ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-10-22 15:47         ` Preben Randhol
2003-10-22 15:07     ` Martin Dowie
2003-10-21 10:03 christoph.grein
     [not found] <1066725615.2801.26.camel@localhost.localdomain>
2003-10-21 11:57 ` += in Ada sk
2003-10-21 12:07 += in ada christoph.grein
2003-10-21 13:51 ` Preben Randhol
     [not found] <3F957DAD.2020801@myob.com>
2003-10-21 21:16 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
     [not found] ` <nSp8Qb_KxF@vib.usr.pu.ru>
2003-10-21 21:40   ` sk
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