It's all like that

It's all like that

[Hyman Rosen]

I've often thought that the ratio of high to low quality
programmers and programming techniques carries through to
other fields as well. Frighten yourself by imagining if
the situation in medicine was the same as the one in
programming. Well, according to the New York Times, it is.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/18/opinion/18WED1.html>

Basically, most doctors appear to be C programmers :-)

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

Probably a wondeful article ... however, one has to be
subscribed :-(

Oh well :-)

Re: It's all like that

[Hyman Rosen]

sk wrote:
> however, one has to be subscribed :-(

Free subscription.

Re: It's all like that

[Ted Dennison]

Hyman Rosen wrote:
> sk wrote:
> 
>> however, one has to be subscribed :-(
> 
> 
> Free subscription.
> 

Free or not, its still annoying, and requires you to answer intrusive 
questions. sk is far from alone in being put off by that. That's why 
many sites (eg: slashdot) have a policy against posting links to 
"registration required" sites. That's also why there's a little 
mini-industry around getting around the nytimes registrations.

For instance, one can get oneself a randomly-generated registration by 
going here: http://www.majcher.com/nytview.html (you have to save-as the 
webpage and load it from your system as a file, as the Times has blocked 
registrations from that web page's domain).

Also, one can bypass the registration entirely by clicking the "NYTimes 
Registration Bypass" link at 
http://galeon.sourceforge.net/bookmarks/browse.php?category=News

Also, if you really know what you're doing (and what you're looking 
for), you can use Google to find it, and get in that way.

btw: Using the first method, I got access to the story. I won't bother 
to post it here because, while it is a bit scary, I don't think its 
close to being on-topic here.

Re: It's all like that

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <1040322971.732607@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
> Ted Dennison wrote:
>> Free or not, its still annoying
> 
> That seems quite ungrateful to me.

I am not grateful to institutions that are annoying.

>  > intrusive questions
> 
> Gender, age, zip code, job, income range.
> No actual name with which to associate these.
> And it will cookie your login so you never
> have to login after the first time.

Certainly any institution that tries to put a cookie on my machine
gets my disrespect.

Re: It's all like that

[Hyman Rosen]

Ted Dennison wrote:
> Free or not, its still annoying

That seems quite ungrateful to me.

 > intrusive questions

Gender, age, zip code, job, income range.
No actual name with which to associate these.
And it will cookie your login so you never
have to login after the first time.

Re: It's all like that

[Pascal Obry]

Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:

> In article <1040322971.732607@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
> > Gender, age, zip code, job, income range.
> > No actual name with which to associate these.
> > And it will cookie your login so you never
> > have to login after the first time.
> 
> Certainly any institution that tries to put a cookie on my machine
> gets my disrespect.

Same here. It is not because you don't have to reenter the info that this is
not known by the server!

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: It's all like that

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <1040327523.670557@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>> I am not grateful to institutions that are annoying.
> 
> They are not annoying. They don't come banging on your door.
> They are cheerfully offering a free service, and want you to
> answer a half-dozen easy questions, once, for access. It seems
> profoundly ungrateful to cavil at this.

Anybody trying to gather personal information about me is annoying.

Re: It's all like that

[Hyman Rosen]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> I am not grateful to institutions that are annoying.

They are not annoying. They don't come banging on your door.
They are cheerfully offering a free service, and want you to
answer a half-dozen easy questions, once, for access. It seems
profoundly ungrateful to cavil at this.

I see this so many times - there are always people who feel
that the provider of a free service is in some way obligated
to satisfy all demands from its users. Come to think of it,
this puts us squarely back on topic, doesn't it?

> Certainly any institution that tries to put a cookie on my
 > machine gets my disrespect.

They don't "try". On their login page, you are offered the
option of doing this. Good grief, what is it with some people?

Re: It's all like that

[Georg Bauhaus]

sk <sk@noname.com> wrote:
: Probably a wondeful article ... however, one has to be
: subscribed :-(

Not one, but an anonymous (whatever the definitions and implications
might be for computers). NYT will send a few cookies.  Ask your
browser software not to hand out cookies to unauthorized parties,
if that is possible; NYT's privacy policy and subscriber agreement
will explain what they are doing.

Is that so different from a polite, anonymous survey?

-- georg

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

Georg Bauhaus<sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>
 > Is that so different from a polite, anonymous survey?

Any web page that ...

1) Requires cookies
2) Requires Java/Javascript/Flash ... any of the so called
web features which will "enhance" my web experience,
3) Require me to change my fonts so that I can read
them

... do not get visited by me.HTML and ascii are fine for me.

Polite anonymous surveys get asked, (politely of course :-),
to sod off.

PS. How do you stop Mozilla from prompting for the stupid
Flsah plugin ?


-- Merge vertically for real address
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[Georg Bauhaus]

sk <sk@noname.com> wrote:
: Polite anonymous surveys get asked, (politely of course :-),
: to sod off.
 
Seen from the other side, maybe NYT needs to know, e.g., what kind
of ads make sense, in order to finance spreading information for
free. A subscriber survey as a kind of requirements document. No
use placing ads in the newspaper if those who pay NYT for ads cannot
expect to reach the audience they want.

: PS. How do you stop Mozilla from prompting for the stupid
: Flsah plugin ?
 
no, unfortunately. The Javascript code in macromedia's home page
has some hints. It looks like someone building this into mozilla
(if at all possible?) will feel embraced by many :-)

-- Georg

Re: It's all like that

[Pascal Obry]

Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:

> Anybody trying to gather personal information about me is annoying.

Especially because you can be sure they will sell these info at some
point. And the spams will get right into your mailbox !

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: It's all like that

[Georg Bauhaus]

sk <sk@noname.com> wrote:
: PS. How do you stop Mozilla from prompting for the stupid
: Flsah plugin ?

http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html

Re: It's all like that

[Georg Bauhaus]

Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
: Especially because you can be sure they will sell these info at some
: point. And the spams will get right into your mailbox !

The terms and conditions about selling or not selling the addresses are
outlined in the subscriber agreement.

Re: It's all like that

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <atvmak$igk$2@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>, Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> writes:
> Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> : Especially because you can be sure they will sell these info at some
> : point. And the spams will get right into your mailbox !
> 
> The terms and conditions about selling or not selling the addresses are
> outlined in the subscriber agreement.

I do not have the resources to bring lawsuits against all those who
attempt to violate such agreements.  By not providing the information
I am nipping the problem in the bud.

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

Hi,

Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>:

 > http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html

Thanks ...

I immediately found "zap embeds" which, according
to the details, gets rid of all the things that
annoy me.

However, to download it, I have to enable
Javascript ...

Dilemas dilemas ...

  o o
   |
  \_/

-- 
--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[Florian Weimer]

sk <sk@noname.com> writes:

> Probably a wondeful article ... however, one has to be
> subscribed :-(

<http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/18/opinion/18WED1.html?ex=1040878800&en=b188581a9b579fdc&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE>

I'm not sure if this a permanent link, though.

Re: It's all like that

[Baugereau]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 473 bytes --]


"sk" <sk@noname.com> a �crit dans le message de news: >
> Any web page that ...
>
> 1) Requires cookies
> 2) Requires Java/Javascript/Flash ... any of the so called
> web features which will "enhance" my web experience,
> 3) Require me to change my fonts so that I can read
> them
>
> ... do not get visited by me.HTML and ascii are fine for me.

Why? HTML is enhancing your experience. You should stick to ASCII! :)

I'd like to know what is so evil about cookies?

Re: It's all like that

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <au1fr7$3ru$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>, "Baugereau" <baugereau@ifrance.kom> writes:

> I'd like to know what is so evil about cookies?

They are used for invasion of privacy.

Re: It's all like that

[Pascal Obry]

faust <urfaust@optushome.com.au> writes:

>  Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> ,  emitted these fragments:

Sorry but none of the quoted sentence are mine !

Please be careful when quoting people.

Thanks,
Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: It's all like that

[Larry Kilgallen]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]

In article <au20ao$2gn$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>, "Baugereau" <baugereau@ifrance.kom> writes:
> How?
> 
> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> a �crit dans le message de news:
> rPqIIevMroEt@eisner.encompasserve.org...
>> In article <au1fr7$3ru$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>, "Baugereau"
> <baugereau@ifrance.kom> writes:
>>
>> > I'd like to know what is so evil about cookies?
>>
>> They are used for invasion of privacy.

Aggregating information about successive site visits.

Re: It's all like that

[Baugereau]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 323 bytes --]

How?

"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> a �crit dans le message de news:
rPqIIevMroEt@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> In article <au1fr7$3ru$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>, "Baugereau"
<baugereau@ifrance.kom> writes:
>
> > I'd like to know what is so evil about cookies?
>
> They are used for invasion of privacy.

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

baugereau@ifrance.kom
 > How?
 >
 > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> a �crit dans le message de 
 > > news:
 > rPqIIevMroEt@eisner.encompasserve.org...

 > > In article <au1fr7$3ru$1@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr>, "Baugereau"

 > <baugereau@ifrance.kom> writes:

 > >

 > > > I'd like to know what is so evil about cookies?

 > >
 > > They are used for invasion of privacy.

I don't know if your question is facaetious or not, but in case it
isn't ...

A technique used by some ad companies is to sponsor websites and, as
part of the sponsorship deal, immediately redirect you to the ad company
and back again to the original site. This allows the ad company to
place a cookie on your machine.

In essence, the ad company becomes a "root" webpage for many other
unrelated webpages.

Every web page you visit which is sponsored by the ad company is tracked
through this cookie (or set of cookies). This method quickly builds a
"profile" of you even if it doesn't neccessarily know who you are as an
individual.

I believe that this also means that if it is necessary to submit
personal information to a website, the ad company also has access to
the information.



 > Why? HTML is enhancing your experience. You should stick to ASCII! :)
 > I'd like to know what is so evil about cookies?

In general, it is my protest and the method I use to "opt out" of all 
the trickery going on on the internet to invade my privacy. HTML, I
believe, is passive and cannot do things without my knowledge. The
other "web enhancements" allow the servers to do things without my
permission.


-- 
--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

For a discussion of cookies and the misuse of,

http://www2.mybc.com/webspace/rocket/rs-9809p1.html

-- 
--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[faust]

 Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> ,  emitted these fragments:


>> In article <1040322971.732607@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> writes:
>> > Gender, age, zip code, job, income range.


I am registered on many sites as a 99 year old female unemployed CEO
who earns 2000000$ and lives in Antartica.

>> > And it will cookie your login so you never
>> > have to login after the first time.

Decookie frequently !

--------------------------------------------------------
Come see,
real flowers
of this pain-filled world.

(from Basho)

Re: It's all like that

[Baugereau]

> A technique used by some ad companies is to sponsor websites and, as
> part of the sponsorship deal, immediately redirect you to the ad company
> and back again to the original site. This allows the ad company to
> place a cookie on your machine.
>
> In essence, the ad company becomes a "root" webpage for many other
> unrelated webpages.
>
> Every web page you visit which is sponsored by the ad company is tracked
> through this cookie (or set of cookies). This method quickly builds a
> "profile" of you even if it doesn't neccessarily know who you are as an
> individual.
>
> I believe that this also means that if it is necessary to submit
> personal information to a website, the ad company also has access to
> the information.

Thanks didn't know that "technique".
I was under the (false) impression that the websites could juste push/pop
info on your machine, which is not inherently evil I guess.

But these advertising people always seem to find a way, huh...

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

Hi,

 > Thanks didn't know that "technique".

I would rely on the description at the URL I
posted in the second message to give you the
outline of the technique rather than my voodoo
understanding of it.

-- 
--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[Wes Groleau]

> the trickery going on on the internet to invade my privacy. HTML, I
> believe, is passive and cannot do things without my knowledge. The
> other "web enhancements" allow the servers to do things without my
> permission.

"without your knowledge" is a key.  It is possible,
and I have done it, to do what cookies do without
Javascript or cookies.  It is generally obvious,
however, that it is happening to one who is paying
attention.  It doesn't happen often because it is
so much easier to do it with cookies.

For an example, turn off cookies and Javascript,
and go to http://www.acpl.lib.in.us

Hover over "Library Catalog" and note what the link
URI is.  Click it and note that you get something
different.  Something like:

..../uhtbin/cgisirsi/cUj3y3f4tp/97370270/60/61/X

The stuff after the 'cgisirsi' is functionally
identical to a cookie.  Since (unless you have
disabled this also) any http GET reveals the URI
of the referring page, putting the codes there
can track you just as well as if it were done with
cookies.  And nothing but honor prevents them from
sharing the info.

Re: It's all like that

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <HiEN9.2311$c6.2314@bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com>, Wes Groleau <wesgroleau@despammed.com> writes:

> The stuff after the 'cgisirsi' is functionally
> identical to a cookie.  Since (unless you have
> disabled this also) any http GET reveals the URI
> of the referring page, putting the codes there
> can track you just as well as if it were done with
> cookies.  And nothing but honor prevents them from
> sharing the info.

No, technical difficulty stands in their way, since there is
a problem sharing information between totally disparate sessions
run from the same computer.  With cookies, such aggregation is
not at all difficult for those with a Big Brother inclination.

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

wesgroleau@despammed.com:
 > For an example, turn off cookies and Javascript,
 > and go to http://www.acpl.lib.in.us

This technique seems acceptable but my paranoia has
suddenly risen :-)

This is all server-side and non-persistent ?

No shady dealings with my client to open a side-door
or put things on my system ?

<Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> in the other response to your
post suggests this is the case and I have, upto now,
assumed the same

I am trying to be brief since all this is irrelevent to
CLA but I would be interested to read about the technique,
do you have references or examples ?

-- 
--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[Wes Groleau]

> No, technical difficulty stands in their way, since there is
> a problem sharing information between totally disparate sessions
> run from the same computer.  With cookies, such aggregation is
> not at all difficult for those with a Big Brother inclination.

Any string I can put in a cookie I can put in a URI.
I can use that string as a key into a database, and
if I collect any info from a surfer, I can find it
in the database and use the same string as part of
the URI I serve to them.

Sure, they can defeat it by clearing the cache
and surfing into my web site with a fresh session.
But they have the same protection if they just delete
the cookies.

As I said before, the only reason it's not done
is that cookies are easy, and they work for 98%
of the victims^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers

Re: It's all like that

[Wes Groleau]

> This is all server-side and non-persistent ?

What means server-side?  The server does it.
It is as persistent as they want to make it,
provided you cooperate.

> No shady dealings with my client to open a side-door
> or put things on my system ?

The only things it puts on _your_ system are
the cached pages your browser stores.

Relax.  It can be done, but it isn't done.
If someone wants to do something uncivilized
to someone else, why would he do this when
cookies are so much easier?

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

 > What means server-side?

As opposed to a Java/Javascript interpreters
which are on my host

 > ... cached pages your browser stores.
understood.

 > Relax.  It can be done, but it isn't done.
 > If someone wants to do something uncivilized
 > to someone else ...

"It can be done" is what worries me :-) People
assumed that cookies would not be used for
devious purposes.

 > why would he do this when cookies are so much easier?

Because people, like myself, switch them off and the
nosy might not like this and therefore take steps to
nullify the effect.

I am still not sure how the technique illustrated by
"http://www.acpl.lib.in.us" could be made to do uncivilized
things if I stick to HTML ?

--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[faust]

 Wes Groleau <wesgroleau@despammed.com> ,  emitted these fragments:
 
>Sure, they can defeat it by clearing the cache
>and surfing into my web site with a fresh session.
>But they have the same protection if they just delete
>the cookies.

With Opera, there is an easily menu choice ,"delete private data"
This deletes all history, cookies and cache.
It can be configured easily to do just a subset.



--------------------------------------------------------
Come see,
real flowers
of this pain-filled world.

(from Basho)

Re: It's all like that

[Georg Bauhaus]

sk <sk@noname.com> wrote:
: I am still not sure how the technique illustrated by
: "http://www.acpl.lib.in.us" could be made to do uncivilized
: things if I stick to HTML ?

I think,
You send a request
This request is bound to come from some IP
whosthere : constant String := mix(now, ip);
store(server, whosthere);
answer the request either
- redirecting to http://server/requested/whosthere/the.real.thing
- make navigation accessible through forms only, using
  "http://server//personalised.cgi?who=" & whosthere & "&amp;link=requested"
  as ACTION value or use whosthere as a HIDDED parameter value

Some time ago, European court decided that Cookies should not be
allowed, but SPAM should as long as the sender can be idetified. (Oh,
well...) I think coding a URL is considered the appropriate replacement
technique for cookies. Apple's WebObject does similar things, afaik.

Re: It's all like that

[Alexander Schreiber]

Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
>Ted Dennison wrote:
>> Free or not, its still annoying
>
>That seems quite ungrateful to me.
>
> > intrusive questions
>
>Gender, age, zip code, job, income range.
>No actual name with which to associate these.

Isn't it amazing that a 72 year old pakistani woman has a monthly income
of more that $50.000?

He who asks annoying questions on the web will get useless answers.

>And it will cookie your login so you never
>have to login after the first time.

Which gets purged nightly on my machine.

Regards,
      Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: It's all like that

[sk]

Hi,

Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>
 > I think,
 > ... <snip>
 > technique for cookies. Apple's WebObject does similar things, afaik.

I've been meaning to look at CGI stuff to see what it is all about
for a while but not actually needing it, never got around to it ...

... which reminds me, for those who haven't noticed, 3.15p comes with
CGI interfaces (and CRC32) which I don't think were present with 3.14p.

-- 
--
-- Merge vertically for real address
--
------------------------------------
-- s n p @ t . o
--  k i e k c c m
------------------------------------

Re: It's all like that

[Hyman Rosen]

Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> Isn't it amazing that a 72 year old pakistani woman has a monthly income
> of more that $50.000?
> He who asks annoying questions on the web will get useless answers.

The questions are asked in order for them to understand their audience
better, and therefore to be able to match advertisers to the interests
of their audience. If you and many like you lie, and it turns out that
the ads are mistargeted, then the ads will disappear, along with the
free content.

Thank you for providing a living, breathing example of the Tragedy of
the Commons.