POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

hi,

I have been looking for Ada tools for my one man company. There are many Ada
compilers/tools on the market each with their own strong and weak points,
but I feel there would still be room for another tool set (probably from
some already existing developer...).

I hope to get some replies here that would in some small way make it easier
for tool developers to make the decision to produce a new kind of commercial
Ada package. I believe there is certain hidden potential in people who learn
Ada and are willing to use it in their work, but then can't _partly_ because
they can't find tools they need. For example, go to
http://netscan.research.microsoft.com/ and get statistics for "comp.lang."
newsgroups. The ranking of comp.lang.ada is getting better all the time...
[statistics start around 10/1999] [I know this message doesn't make it any
easier to produce the tools, but hopefully it adds something new to question
about how large the non-embedded & non-high-reliability user base might be.]

(I personally would like to use Ada for "yet another consumer application"
development).

The question is: Would you or your company use Ada more if there was Visual
C++/Metroworks/.. like tools available at reasonable cost? By "Visual
C++/Metroworks/.. like" I mean products that are easy to buy from any web
shop, are commercially developed and can be "used together" to get wide
platform support (Mac/Linux/Win/Unix).

Why easy to buy? Because it's so common to buy off-the-shelf products. If
someone says to his/her boss: "there is this open source package I want to
use...", the reaction is IMO quite likely: "I don't trust open source
stuff". Yes, people accept open source stuff more easily these days, but
people making decisions feel they are responsible and they need to look at
the matter more closely before approval and they don't have time... so they
say no. If someone says: "I want to buy support contract...", the reaction
is same: people want to know more before approval. Off-the-shelf packages
are easier: it's a concrete physical package that has certain price tag.
People are used to buying packages: Software, books, food, anything... [the
idea here is that unfortunately many decision makers don't make smart
decisions, they make easy decisions]

Why commercially developed? I think people feel there is higher risk in
using "without commercial gain" developed packages.[The whole idea might be
in error, but if many people feel that way it will affect sales.]

Why wide platform support? I think people have now learned their portability
lessons... many packages have been ported to platforms no one believed they
would have to deal with. I think people already look at Mac and Linux as
potential targets and it's important to be prepared. [the process of porting
a C++ app is known and even if it's not always an easy process, it's a known
process. The effort needed to port Ada code is unknown for many
non-Ada-using managers, but wide platform support would make it easier to
believe the porting can be done (of course it can be done!)]

Okay, thanks for your time,
Juha Valimaki
Digital Studio Lifelike Oy

P.S. simple YES/NO replies would make this poll easier to follow :-)

-------------------------------------------
(email reply: remove 'x' from domain name)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <ajie5a$oqv$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>, "Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> writes:

> The question is: Would you or your company use Ada more if there was Visual
> C++/Metroworks/.. like tools available at reasonable cost? By "Visual
> C++/Metroworks/.. like" I mean products that are easy to buy from any web
> shop, are commercially developed and can be "used together" to get wide
> platform support (Mac/Linux/Win/Unix).

I don't need wide platform support -- I just need support for my platform,
and since you did not include my platform your plan is immaterial to me.

> Why commercially developed? I think people feel there is higher risk in
> using "without commercial gain" developed packages.[The whole idea might be
> in error, but if many people feel that way it will affect sales.]

I favor the traditional business model for several reaons, none of which
is dislike of Richard Stallman.  I look for something where one can just
buy software (and updates if needed) without a "10 user minimum".  But it
is crucial to me that software be available on CDROM not as a "download".

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Preben Randhol]

Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote on 16/08/2002 (12:32) :
> I favor the traditional business model for several reaons, none of which
> is dislike of Richard Stallman.  I look for something where one can just
> buy software (and updates if needed) without a "10 user minimum".  But it
> is crucial to me that software be available on CDROM not as a "download".
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why?

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:11:12 +0200, Preben Randhol
<randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote:

>Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote on 16/08/2002 (12:32) :
>> I favor the traditional business model for several reaons, none of which
>> is dislike of Richard Stallman.  I look for something where one can just
>> buy software (and updates if needed) without a "10 user minimum".  But it
>> is crucial to me that software be available on CDROM not as a "download".
>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Why?

Ask an accountant :-)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Preben Randhol]

John McCabe <john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk> wrote on 16/08/2002 (13:56) :
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:11:12 +0200, Preben Randhol
> <randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote:
> 
> >Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote on 16/08/2002 (12:32) :
> >> is crucial to me that software be available on CDROM not as a "download".
> >                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Why?
> 
> Ask an accountant :-)

Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
Manual from a shop, but there is no other warrenties from that you
download from the net. Besides relying on CD-ROM releases only is
inherently less secure than also using the net for updates.

-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:44:22 +0200, Preben Randhol
<randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote:

>> Ask an accountant :-)

>Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
>Manual from a shop,

Oh yes! That's right. But where can you buy e.g. GNAT (public) on a CD
in a box with a printed manual?

> but there is no other warrenties from that you
>download from the net.

>Besides relying on CD-ROM releases only is
>inherently less secure than also using the net for updates.

I don't disagree with these comments, but I'm a software
engineer/developer, not an accountant.

If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say "there you go,
I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where is it?" and
you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're going to say
to that?

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Preben Randhol]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:17:31 GMT, John McCabe wrote:
> 
> Oh yes! That's right. But where can you buy e.g. GNAT (public) on a CD
> in a box with a printed manual?

Hmm, perhaps I should make a small company ;-)

> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say "there you go,
> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where is it?" and
> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're going to say
> to that?

Well if you download GNAT (Public) or some other program then you say
"I've spent $0 on software" and the accountant will smile from ear to
ear and get big dewy dollar symbols in his eyes whilst drooling. ;-) 

If one is expected to pay for the program, then of course I also would
like to have a printed manual and a CD-ROM. Unless it is support you pay
for.

Preben Randhol

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:23:14 +0000 (UTC), Preben Randhol
<randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:17:31 GMT, John McCabe wrote:
>> 
>> Oh yes! That's right. But where can you buy e.g. GNAT (public) on a CD
>> in a box with a printed manual?
>
>Hmm, perhaps I should make a small company ;-)

Feel free :-)

>> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say "there you go,
>> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where is it?" and
>> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're going to say
>> to that?

>Well if you download GNAT (Public) or some other program then you say
>"I've spent $0 on software" and the accountant will smile from ear to
>ear and get big dewy dollar symbols in his eyes whilst drooling. ;-) 

Ah, but then the manager with some vague [odd] idea of software comes
in and says "If it doesn't cost anything, it can't be any good" :-)

>If one is expected to pay for the program, then of course I also would
>like to have a printed manual and a CD-ROM. Unless it is support you pay
>for.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert A Duff]

john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) writes:

> Ah, but then the manager with some vague [odd] idea of software comes
> in and says "If it doesn't cost anything, it can't be any good" :-)

That reminds me of a talk I heard some years ago, given by a guy from
NASA.  He was talking about the software for the Apollo program.  They
had weight budgets for all the pieces of the rocket -- obviously you
want to make the thing as light as possible if you're launching it into
space.  So the manager asked the software guy how much the software
would weigh.  He said software doesn't weigh anything.  The manager said
come on, these weight budgets are very important, even if it's not much,
every ounce counts.  The software guy tried in vain to convince the
manager that the weight of software really is zero.  Eventually the
software guy showed the manager a deck of punch cards, and said, See the
holes?  That's the software.  Then the manager understood.

- Bob

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:00:52 GMT, Robert A Duff
<bobduff@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote:

>john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) writes:
>
>> Ah, but then the manager with some vague [odd] idea of software comes
>> in and says "If it doesn't cost anything, it can't be any good" :-)
>
>That reminds me of a talk I heard some years ago, given by a guy from
>NASA.  He was talking about the software for the Apollo program.  They
>had weight budgets for all the pieces of the rocket -- obviously you
>want to make the thing as light as possible if you're launching it into
>space.  So the manager asked the software guy how much the software
>would weigh.  He said software doesn't weigh anything.  The manager said
>come on, these weight budgets are very important, even if it's not much,
>every ounce counts.  The software guy tried in vain to convince the
>manager that the weight of software really is zero.  Eventually the
>software guy showed the manager a deck of punch cards, and said, See the
>holes?  That's the software.  Then the manager understood.

Amusing, as long as you don't consider the storage medium for the
software. Point being, if you write an app that's 200MBytes, you're
going to need shit-loads more storage than one that's 2kBytes, and
storage uses mass. Can't say anyone's ever bothered me with such
nonsense though :-)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Dmitry A.Kazakov]

Robert A Duff wrote:

> That reminds me of a talk I heard some years ago, given by a guy from
> NASA.  He was talking about the software for the Apollo program.  They
> had weight budgets for all the pieces of the rocket -- obviously you
> want to make the thing as light as possible if you're launching it into
> space.  So the manager asked the software guy how much the software
> would weigh.  He said software doesn't weigh anything.  The manager said
> come on, these weight budgets are very important, even if it's not much,
> every ounce counts.  The software guy tried in vain to convince the
> manager that the weight of software really is zero.  Eventually the
> software guy showed the manager a deck of punch cards, and said, See the
> holes?  That's the software.  Then the manager understood.

(:-)) 

[OT] I have almost forgot physics, but I suppose that the weights of 
RAM/ROM bits set to 0 and 1 should slightly differ. So same CPU may weigh a 
pair picogramms (?) more or less depending on the software version.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Anatoly Chernyshev]

Dmitry A.Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message news:<akflgg$1hdrbh$1@ID-77047.news.dfncis.de>...
> Robert A Duff wrote:
> 
> > That reminds me of a talk I heard some years ago, given by a guy from
> > NASA.  He was talking about the software for the Apollo program.  They
> > had weight budgets for all the pieces of the rocket -- obviously you
> > want to make the thing as light as possible if you're launching it into
> > space.  So the manager asked the software guy how much the software
> > would weigh.  He said software doesn't weigh anything.  The manager said
> > come on, these weight budgets are very important, even if it's not much,
> > every ounce counts.  The software guy tried in vain to convince the
> > manager that the weight of software really is zero.  Eventually the
> > software guy showed the manager a deck of punch cards, and said, See the
> > holes?  That's the software.  Then the manager understood.
> 
> (:-)) 
> 
> [OT] I have almost forgot physics, but I suppose that the weights of 
> RAM/ROM bits set to 0 and 1 should slightly differ. So same CPU may weigh a 
> pair picogramms (?) more or less depending on the software version.

From the Brillouin's theorem:					
Increase in information is equal to the decrease in entropy:		

	dI = -dS							

As soon as dS is in J/(mole*K), the intrinsic energetic part of S
depends on the fraction of the matter by which 1 bit is coded, and, of
course, on the temperature too.
If the bit is coded by, let's say, the spin state of single electron
then mole fraction is equal to 1/NA (Avogadro's number = 6.02e23) =
1.66E-24	moles
Another example, when the bit is coded by an abacus stone maden of
quartz, then molar fraction is going to be mass of the stone (take it
for 5g)/molar mass of quartz (60) = 8.00E-02	moles

The difference in energy for 0 and 1 states for these devices at	
298 K (1*mole*T) will be respectively 4.95E-22 J and 2.38E+01 J.				
From E=mc**2 we now obtain the mass difference between 0 and 1 bits
for these cases: 5.50E-39 kg and 2.65E-16 kg.
If the length of program is 1Mb which is 8388608 bits (we do not
consider the domination of 1 states over 0 states because they do not
complement each other, since one has to always spent some energy to
keep both states ordered) then the mass difference between bulk
support (CD, abacus, etc) will be 4.61E-32	kg in the first case or
2.22E-09 kg in the second case (if one was dare enough to code 1Mb
program in abacus).

This is just an estimation made for fun, so I may be totally wrong.

Regards,
Anatoly

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Jim Rogers]

Anatoly Chernyshev wrote:

> Dmitry A.Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message news:<akflgg$1hdrbh$1@ID-77047.news.dfncis.de>...
> 
>>Robert A Duff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That reminds me of a talk I heard some years ago, given by a guy from
>>>NASA.  He was talking about the software for the Apollo program.  They
>>>had weight budgets for all the pieces of the rocket -- obviously you
>>>want to make the thing as light as possible if you're launching it into
>>>space.  So the manager asked the software guy how much the software
>>>would weigh.  He said software doesn't weigh anything.  The manager said
>>>come on, these weight budgets are very important, even if it's not much,
>>>every ounce counts.  The software guy tried in vain to convince the
>>>manager that the weight of software really is zero.  Eventually the
>>>software guy showed the manager a deck of punch cards, and said, See the
>>>holes?  That's the software.  Then the manager understood.
>>>
>>(:-)) 
>>
>>[OT] I have almost forgot physics, but I suppose that the weights of 
>>RAM/ROM bits set to 0 and 1 should slightly differ. So same CPU may weigh a 
>>pair picogramms (?) more or less depending on the software version.
>>
> 
> From the Brillouin's theorem:					
> Increase in information is equal to the decrease in entropy:		
> 
> 	dI = -dS							
> 
> As soon as dS is in J/(mole*K), the intrinsic energetic part of S
> depends on the fraction of the matter by which 1 bit is coded, and, of
> course, on the temperature too.
> If the bit is coded by, let's say, the spin state of single electron
> then mole fraction is equal to 1/NA (Avogadro's number = 6.02e23) =
> 1.66E-24	moles
> Another example, when the bit is coded by an abacus stone maden of
> quartz, then molar fraction is going to be mass of the stone (take it
> for 5g)/molar mass of quartz (60) = 8.00E-02	moles
> 
> The difference in energy for 0 and 1 states for these devices at	
> 298 K (1*mole*T) will be respectively 4.95E-22 J and 2.38E+01 J.				
> From E=mc**2 we now obtain the mass difference between 0 and 1 bits
> for these cases: 5.50E-39 kg and 2.65E-16 kg.
> If the length of program is 1Mb which is 8388608 bits (we do not
> consider the domination of 1 states over 0 states because they do not
> complement each other, since one has to always spent some energy to
> keep both states ordered) then the mass difference between bulk
> support (CD, abacus, etc) will be 4.61E-32	kg in the first case or
> 2.22E-09 kg in the second case (if one was dare enough to code 1Mb
> program in abacus).
> 
> This is just an estimation made for fun, so I may be totally wrong.


This analysis relies upon a misunderstanding of the formula E=mc**2.
Not all energy transmission results in the formation or destruction
of matter. This only happens during fusion or fission.

If this were not so, your calculations would still be incomplete.
You ignore state transition energies, friction, differences in
gravitational forces, and perturbations of nearby electric and magnetic
fields. These other forces result in additional energy consumption
resulting in a local increase in heat.

Jim Rogers

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Anatoly Chernyshev]

Jim Rogers <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3D6BD1A8.9060801@worldnet.att.net>...
> This analysis relies upon a misunderstanding of the formula E=mc**2.
> Not all energy transmission results in the formation or destruction
> of matter. This only happens during fusion or fission.
> 
> If this were not so, your calculations would still be incomplete.
> You ignore state transition energies, friction, differences in
> gravitational forces, and perturbations of nearby electric and magnetic
> fields. These other forces result in additional energy consumption
> resulting in a local increase in heat.
> 

Well, you suggested a whole theme for research, which, I believe, will
win the Nobel prize upon completion. Thanks a
lot, but... tough luck.
Anyway, as I said, it was only crude ESTIMATION made in 10 min, not
analysis or whatever else.

What did you mean by the destruction of matter? Decomposition into
photons? But they are also a kind of matter, and
one can compute their mass from
de Broigle wavelength: lambda=h/mc.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Jim Rogers]

Anatoly Chernyshev wrote:

> Jim Rogers <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3D6BD1A8.9060801@worldnet.att.net>...
> 
>>This analysis relies upon a misunderstanding of the formula E=mc**2.
>>Not all energy transmission results in the formation or destruction
>>of matter. This only happens during fusion or fission.
>>
>>If this were not so, your calculations would still be incomplete.
>>You ignore state transition energies, friction, differences in
>>gravitational forces, and perturbations of nearby electric and magnetic
>>fields. These other forces result in additional energy consumption
>>resulting in a local increase in heat.
>>
>>
> 
> Well, you suggested a whole theme for research, which, I believe, will
> win the Nobel prize upon completion. Thanks a
> lot, but... tough luck.
> Anyway, as I said, it was only crude ESTIMATION made in 10 min, not
> analysis or whatever else.
> 
> What did you mean by the destruction of matter? Decomposition into
> photons? But they are also a kind of matter, and
> one can compute their mass from
> de Broigle wavelength: lambda=h/mc.
> 

What particle is created or converted to produce kinetic energy?
Particle theory also includes the concept of momentum for each individual
particle. The ideal gas law describes this very clearly: pv=nRt.
Kinetic energy is responsible for the temperature (t) in the above
equation. Note that classical mechanics defines energy as
E=(mv**2)/2. The first indication that the Einsteinian formal was true
came with nuclear fission results in the 1940's. Prior to that the
classical formula was dominant for particle physics. How can this be?
Were all old calculations off by a factor of 2? No, the classical
formula was quite reliable. The Einsteinian formula is only seen to be
valid under conditions not normally encountered on the surface of Earth
such a fission and fusion reactions.

Jim Rogers

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Darren New]

Jim Rogers wrote:
> What particle is created or converted to produce kinetic energy?

I don't think you need a particle. Fusion doesn't result in a different
collection of particles, AFAIK, just a different overall weight, yes?

-- 
Darren New 
San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
   ** http://images.fbrtech.com/dnew/ **

Try our EbolaBurgers...
      So tender they melt in your mouth.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Jim Rogers]

Darren New wrote:

> Jim Rogers wrote:
> 
>>What particle is created or converted to produce kinetic energy?
>>
> 
> I don't think you need a particle. Fusion doesn't result in a different
> collection of particles, AFAIK, just a different overall weight, yes?
> 
> 

Fusion does produce a number of photons of different energy levels
as well as radiation caused by neutrons. It does produce lower radiation
due to protons than does fission.

Jim Rogers

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Jerry Petrey]

Darren New wrote:

> Jim Rogers wrote:
> > What particle is created or converted to produce kinetic energy?
>
> I don't think you need a particle. Fusion doesn't result in a different
> collection of particles, AFAIK, just a different overall weight, yes?
>
> --
> Darren New
> San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
>    ** http://images.fbrtech.com/dnew/ **
>
> Try our EbolaBurgers...
>       So tender they melt in your mouth.

There are a number of fusion processes but they all result in the creation of
some
new particles.  The most common process in our sun's core  is the
proton-proton process.
The process is something like this:  two protons collide and fuse, one
deteriorates into
a neutron releasing a positron and a very high energy neutrino.  The resulting
nucleus is
deuterium.  Another proton fuses with this nucleus forming the light helium
isotope.
When two of these helium isotopes collides and fuses, a helium nuclei results
with
two protons expelled at high energy to continue the process.  If you add up
the masses
of the original protons and compare with the resulting particles, the missing
mass
is the binding energy that was released according to Einstein's famous
equation.

This process starts in stars where the core temperature is about 700,000 K.

Jerry

P.S. a good description of this can be found in a new book, "Journey from the
Center of the Sun"
which I recently reviewed on Amazon.com


--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Jerry Petrey
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation (GPS/INS), Guidance, &
Control
-- Raytheon Missile Systems          - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

ada@polarhome.com (Anatoly Chernyshev) wrote in message news:<2a038d0e.0208271023.6b0fc44e@posting.google.com>...
> Dmitry A.Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message news:<akflgg$1hdrbh$1@ID-77047.news.dfncis.de>...

> This is just an estimation made for fun, so I may be totally wrong.

Well in general it is certainly possible to store information in devices
where the mass of a 0 and 1 are identical. For example, consider a slider
with a weight sliding on it. If the weight is at one end it is a 0 and
if it is at the other, it is a 1. Clearly the mass is the same in both
cases, so I think the argument from entropy change is bogus :-)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[tmoran]

> where the mass of a 0 and 1 are identical. For example, consider a slider
> with a weight sliding on it. If the weight is at one end it is a 0 and
> if it is at the other, it is a 1. Clearly the mass is the same in both
> cases, so I think the argument from entropy change is bogus :-)
  If the weight is at one end or the other, then let the slider rotate
about its center to let the heavy end hang down.  The drop in the weights
can generate energy, which could be used in a cyclotron to smash medium
weight nuclei together to form uranium, converting part of the energy to
mass.
  Or consider the initial state of the sliding-mass-RAM in a rocket
gliding through space, with weights randomly positioned.  To move the
weights requires a change in entropy, which requires an energy input.
Take that energy from your nuclear reactor, which got it from converting
mass into energy.  If you have a sealed system and don't dump heat or
anything into space, your rocket will continue on the same orbit.  On
landing the weight budget manager will weigh the fuel rods and ask where
the mass went, especially since the orbit guys say you didn't lose any
mass during your trip.  You'll have to tell him the mass went into the
loading the software into RAM.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[tmoran]

> rocket gliding through space, ...
> continue on the same orbit.
  Sorry, it must be accelerating, not gliding, to change motion due
to a mass change.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Anatoly Chernyshev]

dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) wrote in message news:<5ee5b646.0208271741.45930506@posting.google.com>...
> ada@polarhome.com (Anatoly Chernyshev) wrote in message news:<2a038d0e.0208271023.6b0fc44e@posting.google.com>...
> > Dmitry A.Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message news:<akflgg$1hdrbh$1@ID-77047.news.dfncis.de>...
>  
> > This is just an estimation made for fun, so I may be totally wrong.
> 
> Well in general it is certainly possible to store information in devices
> where the mass of a 0 and 1 are identical. For example, consider a slider
> with a weight sliding on it. If the weight is at one end it is a 0 and
> if it is at the other, it is a 1. Clearly the mass is the same in both
> cases, so I think the argument from entropy change is bogus :-)

It was a mere formal approach. Yet the mass difference of  4.61E-32 kg
is just
about 0.05 of electron mass, i.e. quite negligible and hardly
measurable.
If you, Dr. Dewar, want a real bogus, step on the floor scales and
check your mass. Then raise your left hand, raise your right hand and
watch how your mass is changing.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Dmitry A.Kazakov]

Robert Dewar wrote:

> ada@polarhome.com (Anatoly Chernyshev) wrote in message
> news:<2a038d0e.0208271023.6b0fc44e@posting.google.com>...
>> Dmitry A.Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message
>> news:<akflgg$1hdrbh$1@ID-77047.news.dfncis.de>...
> 
>> This is just an estimation made for fun, so I may be totally wrong.
> 
> Well in general it is certainly possible to store information in devices
> where the mass of a 0 and 1 are identical. For example, consider a slider
> with a weight sliding on it. If the weight is at one end it is a 0 and
> if it is at the other, it is a 1. Clearly the mass is the same in both
> cases, so I think the argument from entropy change is bogus :-)

[ I do not think it is that simple. There is no information without a 
reading device. The whole system shoud be considered. I belive that even a 
mechanical system would have states having different levels of energy. ]

[Even more OT] Approx. 10 years ago in Scientific American there was a 
paper considering implementation of Maxwell's daemons. Authors criticized 
the common point of view that solely a measuring process were the reason 
why a daemon could not work. They pointed that actually it could be 
possible to avoid that loss. But energy would get lost when information 
were erased, i.e. when the system had to be brought to a definite state 
before a new cycle.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Adrian Hoe]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:17:31 GMT, John McCabe wrote:
> 
>>Oh yes! That's right. But where can you buy e.g. GNAT (public) on a CD
>>in a box with a printed manual?
>>
> 
> Hmm, perhaps I should make a small company ;-)
> 



Small is not good enough. Even smaller - one-man company and you are 
the boss! No one will complain when the boss spend the money unless 
you are complaining and stingy.


> 
>>If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say "there you go,
>>I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where is it?" and
>>you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're going to say
>>to that?
>>
> 
> Well if you download GNAT (Public) or some other program then you say
> "I've spent $0 on software" and the accountant will smile from ear to
> ear and get big dewy dollar symbols in his eyes whilst drooling. ;-) 
> 
> If one is expected to pay for the program, then of course I also would
> like to have a printed manual and a CD-ROM. Unless it is support you pay
> for.
> 
> Preben Randhol
> 



-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnalpv63.5k9.randhol+news@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>...
> Well if you download GNAT (Public) or some other program 
> then you say "I've spent $0 on software" and the 
> accountant will smile from ear to
> ear and get big dewy dollar symbols in his eyes whilst 
> drooling. ;-) 

Of course your lawyers (who want to be assured of proper
licensening) and your software folks (who want to be assured of
support) may not drool quite so much :-)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Preben Randhol]

On 17 Aug 2002 03:12:47 -0700, Robert Dewar wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnalpv63.5k9.randhol+news@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>...
>> Well if you download GNAT (Public) or some other program 
>> then you say "I've spent $0 on software" and the 
>> accountant will smile from ear to
>> ear and get big dewy dollar symbols in his eyes whilst 
>> drooling. ;-) 
> 
> Of course your lawyers (who want to be assured of proper
> licensening) and your software folks (who want to be assured of
> support) may not drool quite so much :-)

Yes, but if the license is the same? :-)

Preben Randhol

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnalsatm.2g5.randhol+abuse@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no
 
> Yes, but if the license is the same? :-)

If you download something from the net, it is up to you
to verify that it is properly licensed. You can't just
assume that because something says it is licensed under
the GPL that it is. Three examples:

1. Someone steals microsoft code and puts it on the net
with a GPL notice. That in no way protects you if you
illegally copy it and use it.

2. Someone modifies a version of a standard GPL tool
with non-GPL'ed code, but the tool still looks like it
is GPL'ed. This in no way protects you if you illegally
copy it and use it.

3. Someone puts out a GPL'ed tool, and in good faith
thinks that it is all their own work and they can issue
a valid GPL, but in fact there are copyright or patent
issues. You are compeltely responsible for any difficulties
if you download this.

By comparison if you get software from a company with whom
you have an executed license agreement, then that other
company is taking responsibility for ensuring that the
license is valid, and that they are entitled to issue the
license, and you are protected.

It's quite a big difference. I often find that people do
not realize that when they download something from the net,
they have to take 100% responsibility on themselves for
ensuring that there are no IPR violations.

And to remember again, the appearence of a copyright or
license statement on the artifact itself has no legal
significance, you are not entitled to rely on this information for legal protection.

So back to your original question. The license may or may
not be "the same", but the big difference is that in one
case you take responsibility, in the other case, you sign
a contract with another company and that other company
takes responsibility.

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Caffeine Junky]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:00:06 -0400, Robert Dewar wrote:

> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote in message
> news:<slrnalsatm.2g5.randhol+abuse@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no
>  
>> Yes, but if the license is the same? :-)
> 
> If you download something from the net, it is up to you to verify that
> it is properly licensed. You can't just assume that because something
> says it is licensed under the GPL that it is. Three examples:
> 
> 1. Someone steals microsoft code and puts it on the net with a GPL
> notice. That in no way protects you if you illegally copy it and use it.
> 
> 2. Someone modifies a version of a standard GPL tool with non-GPL'ed
> code, but the tool still looks like it is GPL'ed. This in no way
> protects you if you illegally copy it and use it.

If I'm unable to compare the code in the GPLed work with Microsoft code,
how am I suppose to know that it was copied illegaly. The responsibility
lies with the person who did the copying in the first place. There is no
way Microsoft is going to lend me a copy of thier source code so that I
can check to see if it was illegaly ripped or not. I suspect most judges
would see it that way as well.
Furthermore, for this to even be possible, I would require access to the
source of every proprietary piece of software that's ever been made.
After all, the source code could come from anywhere.
What your suggesting is a practical impossibility.


> 3. Someone puts out a GPL'ed tool, and in good faith thinks that it is
> all their own work and they can issue a valid GPL, but in fact there are
> copyright or patent issues. You are compeltely responsible for any
> difficulties if you download this.
> Robert Dewar
> Ada Core Technologies
 
Although I would accept responsibility for any technical problems, it's
the responsibility of the company who "owns" the copyright or patent to
check the code and see if it infringes on thier IP. If the company doesnt
bother to enforce thier IP protections, then having a patent or copyright
is pointless anyways.
Likewise, is it reasonable to expect an individual developer to spend days
scanning patent and copyright databases and infinitum to make sure that
every jot and tittle of source code doesnt infringe on someone elses
so-called "Intellectual Property". Perhaps large companies can afford
this kind of work, but it's well beyond the resources of most (all?)
independent developers.

If your advice were adhered to strictly, it would be the death-knell for
any sort of innovation or productivity in the software industry. What
you're suggesting in this regard is outlandish and completely
unreasonable.

No judge in his right mind would enforce the kinds of terms your
suggesting.

If, however, you could concieve of a way to make your above points
practical for all software developers everywhere, then I might be
inclined to concede the points.

St4pL3

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[AG]

Let me tear your argument down to pieces. Even while
I'm not nearly in the same legal expertise group as Dr Dewar,
your arguments are so full of holes that:


[And yes, I do realise I'm responding to a troll but it seemed
interesting enough to do that]


"Caffeine Junky" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9Jx79.182317$uj.257854@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:00:06 -0400, Robert Dewar wrote:
>

> > 2. Someone modifies a version of a standard GPL tool with non-GPL'ed
> > code, but the tool still looks like it is GPL'ed. This in no way
> > protects you if you illegally copy it and use it.
>
> If I'm unable to compare the code in the GPLed work with Microsoft code,
> how am I suppose to know that it was copied illegaly.

How do you know that W95 CD that came with your machine
was *not* copied illegaly? It has nothing to do with access
to the code. Or ability to compare it with some standard or other.

> The responsibility
> lies with the person who did the copying in the first place.

Next time you buy a stolen car, try telling that to the cops ...

> There is no
> way Microsoft is going to lend me a copy of thier source code so that I
> can check to see if it was illegaly ripped or not.

Why would they? You either buy it from them or their
approved resellers or you are buying a stolen copy.
No question of code compares.

> I suspect most judges
> would see it that way as well.

I rather doubt that but it's up to the judges to decide.
The question is however - what sort of a business
would want to use something in it's day-to-day
operations which require a court (judge's) call
to say if it's legal or not?

> What your suggesting is a practical impossibility.

Hmmm ...

>
> > 3. Someone puts out a GPL'ed tool, and in good faith thinks that it is
> > all their own work and they can issue a valid GPL, but in fact there are
> > copyright or patent issues. You are compeltely responsible for any
> > difficulties if you download this.
> > Robert Dewar
> > Ada Core Technologies
>
> Although I would accept responsibility for any technical problems, it's
> the responsibility of the company who "owns" the copyright or patent to
> check the code and see if it infringes on thier IP. If the company doesnt
> bother to enforce thier IP protections, then having a patent or copyright
> is pointless anyways.

Let's try this:

A person takes out a loan on his/her car. Then, he or she sells it to
another
person who (just by mistake) does not check the register and drives around
in it for a while before selling it to you (in good faith). You liked the
car so
much that you forgot to check the debts on it either (yeah, yeah, I know
- not likely to happen but just for the sake of argument}. Come reposession
time - who do you think pays? Yes, you can try to reclaim your losses from
either or both of the first two parties. But regradless of how it goes, the
debt
collection company will be on *your* tail far before you can even try to sue
either of them.

> Likewise, is it reasonable to expect an individual developer to spend days
> scanning patent and copyright databases and infinitum to make sure that
> every jot and tittle of source code doesnt infringe on someone elses
> so-called "Intellectual Property".

No. That's why you should have a legally-binding contract which states
that the "IP" is, in fact, the property of whoever sells it and will
indemnify you
in case of any breaches. In this way, the only risk you take on is that the
seller is totally bogus and will disappear tomorrow. There is that, but it's
a somewhat smaller risk than just downloading something from an unknown
source and betting your business on it ...

> Perhaps large companies can afford
> this kind of work, but it's well beyond the resources of most (all?)
> independent developers.
>
> If your advice were adhered to strictly, it would be the death-knell for
> any sort of innovation or productivity in the software industry.

No, (getting into the independent developer's shoes) you would want
to make sure that whatever you have developed is protecetd at least
a bit - including it not being copied without your express permission.
(Unless you publish it under the GPL or similar that is)

> What
> you're suggesting in this regard is outlandish and completely
> unreasonable.

That's your opinion.

>
> No judge in his right mind would enforce the kinds of terms your
> suggesting.

That's up to the judge(s) to decide. But, seeing that this kind of
terms have been enforced before, I'd rather withhold my bets ...

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <5ee5b646.0208171000.3893d213@posting.google.com>, dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes:

> So back to your original question. The license may or may
> not be "the same", but the big difference is that in one
> case you take responsibility, in the other case, you sign
> a contract with another company and that other company
> takes responsibility.

Depending, of course, on how the contract is worded.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <9Jx79.182317$uj.257854@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, Caffeine Junky <nospam@hotmail.com> writes:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:00:06 -0400, Robert Dewar wrote:

>> If you download something from the net, it is up to you to verify that
>> it is properly licensed. You can't just assume that because something
>> says it is licensed under the GPL that it is. Three examples:
>> 
>> 1. Someone steals microsoft code and puts it on the net with a GPL
>> notice. That in no way protects you if you illegally copy it and use it.
>> 
>> 2. Someone modifies a version of a standard GPL tool with non-GPL'ed
>> code, but the tool still looks like it is GPL'ed. This in no way
>> protects you if you illegally copy it and use it.
> 
> If I'm unable to compare the code in the GPLed work with Microsoft code,
> how am I suppose to know that it was copied illegaly. The responsibility
> lies with the person who did the copying in the first place. There is no
> way Microsoft is going to lend me a copy of thier source code so that I
> can check to see if it was illegaly ripped or not. I suspect most judges
> would see it that way as well.

> No judge in his right mind would enforce the kinds of terms your
> suggesting.

It depends on what you mean by "enforce".  I would not expect you to
be sentenced to prison.  However you should not be surprised in such
circumstances to receive a court order requiring that you cease and
desist from using the tainted software or in providing it to others.
Whether that puts a severe dent in your own business depends on your
particular circumstances.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Preben Randhol]

Robert Dewar <dewar@gnat.com> wrote on 17/08/2002 (12:17) :
> 
> Of course your lawyers (who want to be assured of proper
> licensening) and your software folks (who want to be assured of
> support) may not drool quite so much :-)

By bying a software product you don't necessarily buy any support. If
you want good support you buy from a company that sells support.


-- 
Preben Randhol ------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ --
                 �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

Preben Randhol <randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<mailman.1029660061.17623.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>...
 
> By bying a software product you don't necessarily buy any 
> support. If you want good support you buy from a company 
> that sells support.

Yes, indeed that's a reasonable model. Unfortunately, all
too often proprietary licensing models mean that you are tied to the
original vendor for ever when it comes to support.

At Ada Core Technologies, we know very well that people
could compete with us on GNAT support, and very likely
will compete if we don't do a good job. That keeps us
working hard to provide good support :-)

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Eric Merritt]

> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and
> say "there you go,
> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well,
> where is it?" and
> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think
> they're going to say
> to that?

Hopefully, if they have half a brain, they will ask
you to make sure its burned to a CD, then let you
handle the matters you are expert in (software) the
same way you let them handle the company's accounting.
I have  had this argument several times with various
Bugeteers (I think I just made up a word lol). So far
I have always won the arguments on the grounds that I
know what I am doing and they just need to let me do
it (within reason). How a product is delivered really
shouldn't concern an Accountant/Bugeteer beyond the
fact that it was delivered. 

I realize that this will not work for everyone, but
companies need to get used to the idea that CDs are
going away. Getting a product via download is cheaper
for most everyone. Its cheaper for the environment
becuase there is no packaging or transporting. Its
cheaper for the vendor becuase there is no packaging,
warehouses, and associated costs. For the buyer it may
not be cheaper but it certainly no more costlier then
a CD. 

I, personally, would much rather have a download then
have to wait on snail-mail for a CD. Having the
ability to get a product more or less immediatly after
 the decision to buy it is a major selling point for
me. This is one reason that I love open source, if I
need something I can find it download it and start
using it to solve my problems in a few minutes total.
This would not be possible using the more traditional
software vending practices.

Oh well, thats my opinion. Take it or leave it as desired.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT), Eric Merritt
<cyberlync@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and
>> say "there you go,
>> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well,
>> where is it?" and
>> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think
>> they're going to say
>> to that?
>
>Hopefully, if they have half a brain, they will ask
>you to make sure its burned to a CD, then let you
>handle the matters you are expert in (software) the
>same way you let them handle the company's accounting.

Accountant? Half a brain? You'll be lucky :-)

In general I agree with your comments, but I'm used to working in
large companies like BAE Systems and Marconi where, ultimately, the
company was run by accountants who really hadn't a clue about the
technical stuff. It may be better now though.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Eric Merritt]

John,

So far I guess I have been lucky, the largest company
I have ever worked for was about a 1000 employees.
Even there there was only about 20 or so developers.
At that size its still pretty simple to have personal
contact with the Accountants and get them to see the
light. My experience ends there though, I am not a big
fan of large moribund companies so I may every effort
to avoid them if possible. 

A few years ago I consulted at a *very* large company
and that pretty much cured me of any wish to ever work
at such a place. I have never seen so much beaurocracy
in my life. It was sickening.

Accounts should'nt run the company, they are support
personel nothing more. If its an engineering company
the Engineers should drive it, if its a software
company the developers should drive it, etc. Of
course, if that was the case we would be living in a
utopia lol.

In any case, you are probably right.

Thanks,
Eric

> In general I agree with your comments, but I'm used
> to working in
> large companies like BAE Systems and Marconi where,
> ultimately, the
> company was run by accountants who really hadn't a
> clue about the
> technical stuff. It may be better now though.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> comp.lang.ada mailing list
> comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
> http://ada.eu.org/mailman/listinfo/comp.lang.ada


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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Darren New]

Eric Merritt wrote:
> Accounts should'nt run the company, they are support
> personel nothing more. If its an engineering company
> the Engineers should drive it, if its a software
> company the developers should drive it, etc. Of
> course, if that was the case we would be living in a
> utopia lol.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that *every* company is a *money*
company. :-) The engineers and developers are only there to make money for
the accountants to account for. 

My rule of thumb is to avoid companies not being run by the person/people
who founded the company. Once the boss retires and passes it on to the head
bean counters, it invariably goes downhill.

-- 
Darren New 
San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
   ** http://images.fbrtech.com/dnew/ **

Humility? Why would I need to show some humility?

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Eric Merritt]

Darren,
> 
> The problem with this kind of thinking is that
> *every* company is a *money*
> company. :-) The engineers and developers are only
> there to make money for
> the accountants to account for. 

 Nope, The Accountants are only there to keep track of
the money the Engineers and Developers bring into the
company. Its all in how you look at things I guess.

Other then that I would agree that after the orginal
founder leaves a company is likly to go downhill.
Assuming, of course, that the company was a good
company to begin with. 

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RE: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert C. Leif]

From: Bob Leif
To: Darren New et al.
From my experience, you are correct concerning companies.
Returning to the subject of the use of Ada:
My company would like to develop our next product, which is a
research-clinical instrument in Ada.
Here is what I want. 
1) A compiler vendor with the needed technology and interest in dealing
with a small company. I should note that if we find a sponsor with deep
pockets, I would then minimize risk by paying for support. However, I do
not foresee having more than 3 developers.
2) A simple target operating system with the tasking all in Ada; the GUI
in XML including the capability to display, store, and print XML
documents; and a relational database written in Ada 95. This eliminates
AdaSAGE, which is primarily an Ada translation of Modula 2 code.
Note 1: The file management part of the system should be a database
application.
Note 2: My management would like the added security of an Ada compiler
that would work with Microsoft .Net tools.  

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Darren New
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 8:04 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

Eric Merritt wrote:
> Accounts should'nt run the company, they are support
> personel nothing more. If its an engineering company
> the Engineers should drive it, if its a software
> company the developers should drive it, etc. Of
> course, if that was the case we would be living in a
> utopia lol.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that *every* company is a
*money*
company. :-) The engineers and developers are only there to make money
for
the accountants to account for. 

My rule of thumb is to avoid companies not being run by the
person/people
who founded the company. Once the boss retires and passes it on to the
head
bean counters, it invariably goes downhill.

-- 
Darren New 
San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
   ** http://images.fbrtech.com/dnew/ **

Humility? Why would I need to show some humility?

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[henderson was no auteur]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:26:44 -0700, "Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com>
wrote:

 
>1) A compiler vendor with the needed technology and interest in dealing
>with a small company. I should note that if we find a sponsor with deep
>pockets, I would then minimize risk by paying for support. However, I do
>not foresee having more than 3 developers.

check out http://www.galoisconnections.com/

However, they are FP oriented.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Hyman Rosen]

Eric Merritt wrote:
> A few years ago I consulted at a *very* large company
> and that pretty much cured me of any wish to ever work
> at such a place. I have never seen so much beaurocracy
> in my life. It was sickening.

Odd. As an Ada programmer, you should find this situation
pleasing. It's the corporate version of Ada's strong type
checking and syntax. Just as Ada is intended to be useful
for very large projects, and favors the reader over the
writer, the bureaucratic nature of the organization is meant
to support the management of a large number of employees. It
favors ability to manage over employee convenience.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Eric Merritt]

> 
> Odd. As an Ada programmer, you should find this
> situation
> pleasing. It's the corporate version of Ada's strong
> type
> checking and syntax. Just as Ada is intended to be
> useful
> for very large projects, and favors the reader over
> the
> writer, the bureaucratic nature of the organization
> is meant
> to support the management of a large number of
> employees. It
> favors ability to manage over employee convenience.

I think you are missing a core concept here. The
strong typing and syntax help me get my job done in a
stable, fast, and timely manner. A bureaucratic and
moribund organization restricts me from getting my job
done in a stable, fast and timely manner. The Ada
typeing an syntax do not exist simply for the purpose
of existing, as I believe many of these bureaucratic
organizations do, they exist to help the programmer.
Now I will admit that some bureaucracy is required to
run an organization but, for some reason, in many
organizations the bureaucracy grows from a support
structure to manage large numbers of employees to a
ravounous beast that sucks the money and life out of
an organization.  

Basically you are saying that becuase Ada constrains
the programmer it is like a bureaucracy that
constrains an employee. I would refute that by saying
there are good constraints and bad constraints. An
example of a good constraint is one that restricts a
person from murdering another person. An example of a
bad constraint is one that restricts a person from
reading or traveling. In this reguard Ada is an
example of good constraints (constraints that are
helpfull and usefull). Bureaucratic organizations are
an example of bad constraints (constraints that are
harmfull and descructive).

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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Hyman Rosen]

Eric Merritt wrote:
> I think you are missing a core concept here. The
> strong typing and syntax help me get my job done in a
> stable, fast, and timely manner. A bureaucratic and
> moribund organization restricts me from getting my job
> done in a stable, fast and timely manner.

No, I think *you* are missing a core concept here. You are
reacting to your management the way a C programmer reacts
when told to use Ada. If you are open-minded and prepared
to learn, you will discover that the business processes of
the company are there for a reason, and that things are
much smoother when you act in accordance with them instead
of fighting them.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Eric Merritt]

> No, I think *you* are missing a core concept here.
> You are
> reacting to your management the way a C programmer
> reacts
> when told to use Ada. If you are open-minded and
> prepared
> to learn, you will discover that the business
> processes of
> the company are there for a reason, and that things
> are
> much smoother when you act in accordance with them
> instead
> of fighting them.
> 

(We should probably take this off CLA btw).

You can not make a blanket statement that the business
processes of a company are there for a reason or that
they exist to help a company function. Generally I
have found that they are there becuase a person/group
of people felt like it was a good idea at some point.
In some cases they are a good idea in many others they
were not. I question the competency of many of the
people making these rules. In the particular situation
that I described that started this particular
discussion I talked with many of the people
responsable for the rules and they were patently
incompetant. For example, this particular company had
some 70 remote locations that used the software
developed in the primary headquarters. One of the
policies was that when a programmer completed changes
to a program those changes were pushed out immediatly
to all 70 remote locations. There as no allowance for
QA, no time to test, etc. Do you think this was a good
policy? Another of the policies that you are defending
was the fact that change management was not permitted
in the organization. At some point in the past some
idiot had decided that it limited programmer
productivity. Once again, do you think this was a good
idea? There are many other examples of this type of
stupidity, but I think these two serve well.

I follow the rules of any company I work for
reguardless of how stupid they are becuase that is
what I am paid to do. That does not imply that I have
to like them or agree with them. 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Hyman Rosen]

Eric Merritt wrote:
 > Generally I have found that they are there becuase a
 > person/group of people felt like it was a good idea at
 > some point.

Ah, we are now in the realm of backwards compatibility.
Just like in programming, changing business processes
can be extremely difficult and expensive. That isn't to
say that it shouldn't be done, but you, as a lowly cog,
aren't really in a position to know all the consequences
of such changes, or their cost. There are people who make
their living doing nothing but organizing such changes,
and they earn their keep.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Hyman Rosen" <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1029516691.277855@master.nyc.kbcfp.com...
> No, I think *you* are missing a core concept here. You are
> reacting to your management the way a C programmer reacts
> when told to use Ada. If you are open-minded and prepared
> to learn, you will discover that the business processes of
> the company are there for a reason, and that things are
> much smoother when you act in accordance with them instead
> of fighting them.

This concept is flawed.  The C programmer is reacting to a suggestion
whereas Eric is reacting to a situation that he observed.  Bureaucraticies
can be serious problems in businesses, and appearently Eric observed one
that was problematic.  When the X (choose your language) programmer is
reacting to reasonable language change they are usually voicing problems
that may exist in the future.  So here we have two cases.  Case one is where
Eric is reacting to actual problems, and case two is where the X programmer
is complaining about hypothecial problems.  Since cases one and two are
clearly different, claiming they are the same seems like flawed reasoning.

-CRM

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Hyman Rosen" <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1029511909.206639@master.nyc.kbcfp.com...
> Odd. As an Ada programmer, you should find this situation
> pleasing. It's the corporate version of Ada's strong type
> checking and syntax. Just as Ada is intended to be useful
> for very large projects, and favors the reader over the
> writer, the bureaucratic nature of the organization is meant
> to support the management of a large number of employees. It
> favors ability to manage over employee convenience.

This is such an interesting bad analogy.  On the surface it appears like a
reasonable analogy, but then one realizes Ada is a language implemented on
machines while bureaucraticies are a group of humans.  It not that
bureaucracies are inheritably evil, but instead that they inherit all the
problems that go with humanity.  The language Ada has no ulterior motives
being that it not composed of humans.  Thus it is perfectly reasonable to
like the strong typing of Ada and despise the practical nature of
bureaucracies.  Note that I am not advocating despising bureaucracies. I am
pointing out how nasty this analogy is.

-CRM

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Simon Wright]

john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) writes:

> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT), Eric Merritt
> <cyberlync@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and
> >> say "there you go,
> >> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well,
> >> where is it?" and
> >> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think
> >> they're going to say
> >> to that?
> >
> >Hopefully, if they have half a brain, they will ask
> >you to make sure its burned to a CD, then let you
> >handle the matters you are expert in (software) the
> >same way you let them handle the company's accounting.
> 
> Accountant? Half a brain? You'll be lucky :-)
> 
> In general I agree with your comments, but I'm used to working in
> large companies like BAE Systems and Marconi where, ultimately, the
> company was run by accountants who really hadn't a clue about the
> technical stuff. It may be better now though.

I work in a company very like those and we have had no trouble from
our accountants buying support from ACT (and I'm fairly sure we don't
have a physical box even yet, could be wrong there).

Trouble caused by a long, partly outsourced, supply chain and losing
renewals in the loop and managing (I think) to order the wrong support
contract, yes :-(

The downloaded software has to go on a CD because the computers it is
to run on aren't connected to the Net. And it's a good idea anyway.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

Simon Wright <simon@pushface.org> wrote in message news:<x7velcy6m3h.fsf@pushface.org>...
> I work in a company very like those and we have had no 
> trouble from our accountants buying support from ACT (and 
> I'm fairly sure we don't have a physical box even yet, 
> could be wrong there).

Well I am not sure when your support contract started, but
we definitely mail off handsome blue boxes with a CD ROM
and printed manuals. Generally people get started by
downloading from the Ada Core Technologies site, so it
is possible you have not got your box yet, but you 
definitely should receive it, so if you don't contact
sales@gnat.com or sales@act-europe.fr and ask where your
box is :-)

Seriously, we do find that people like to have printed
manuals, especially to get started. Of course the printed
manuals do get out of date, as does the CD ROM in the box,
but they are a good starting point and the blue box looks
very nice on the shelf!

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Robert Dewar wrote:
...
> Seriously, we do find that people like to have printed
> manuals, especially to get started. Of course the printed
> manuals do get out of date, as does the CD ROM in the box,
> but they are a good starting point and the blue box looks
> very nice on the shelf!
> 
> Robert Dewar
> Ada Core Technologies

I havn't checked your website, but do you sell manuals to
non-supported hobbiests too?  I don't need the CD, but I
do like a nicely bound set of book(s).
-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:3D5E7538.3050108@cogeco.ca...
> Robert Dewar wrote:
> ...
> > Seriously, we do find that people like to have printed
> > manuals, especially to get started. Of course the printed
> > manuals do get out of date, as does the CD ROM in the box,
> > but they are a good starting point and the blue box looks
> > very nice on the shelf!
> >
> > Robert Dewar
> > Ada Core Technologies
>
> I havn't checked your website, but do you sell manuals to
> non-supported hobbiests too?  I don't need the CD, but I
> do like a nicely bound set of book(s).
> --
> Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
> http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg
>

That would be acceptable alternative for me too, if real support deal is not
available: ACT gets money, I reduce my (technology related) risk. I
personally wouldn't mind if the manuals were pricey ($300? $500?), but I
understand that $300 would be absolutely too much for many.

Juha

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <5ee5b646.0208170753.4c044cef@posting.google.com>, dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes:

> Well I am not sure when your support contract started, but
> we definitely mail off handsome blue boxes with a CD ROM
> and printed manuals. Generally people get started by
> downloading from the Ada Core Technologies site, so it
> is possible you have not got your box yet, but you 
> definitely should receive it, so if you don't contact
> sales@gnat.com or sales@act-europe.fr and ask where your
> box is :-)
> 
> Seriously, we do find that people like to have printed
> manuals, especially to get started. Of course the printed
> manuals do get out of date, as does the CD ROM in the box,
> but they are a good starting point and the blue box looks
> very nice on the shelf!

The part I see missing, is the ability for supported customers
to get successive versions sent on CDROM.  Certainly the cost of
pressing more CDROMs is not an issue, since that gets cheaper
with quantity.  Even if ACT were using CD-R that is no worse
than proportional to quantity.

In the VMS world, the OS vendor (fill in today's name) even makes
patches available on CDROM, with download as an option for those
who want them sooner/cheaper.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On 17 Aug 2002 08:53:28 -0700, dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) wrote:

>but they are a good starting point and the blue box looks
>very nice on the shelf!

It does - it's very pretty.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <mailman.1029504842.4595.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Eric Merritt <cyberlync@yahoo.com> writes:
>> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and
>> say "there you go,
>> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well,
>> where is it?" and
>> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think
>> they're going to say
>> to that?
> 
> Hopefully, if they have half a brain, they will ask
> you to make sure its burned to a CD, then let you
> handle the matters you are expert in (software) the
> same way you let them handle the company's accounting.

To rely on the individual's ability to correctly put all
of what has been purchased onto CDROM is riskier than to
reply on the manufacturer doing so, since there is a
wider audience for the manufacturer's work.  If there
is an error, it will likely be encountered by the successor
of the individual who made the purchase, after they have
left the company.

> I have  had this argument several times with various
> Bugeteers (I think I just made up a word lol). So far

Indeed, that is a dandy word for those who introduce defects
into software, but with a slight tweak I would suggest you
use "Budgeteers" :-)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Eric Merritt]

> Indeed, that is a dandy word for those who introduce
> defects
> into software, but with a slight tweak I would
> suggest you
> use "Budgeteers" :-)

LMAO. This was a great miskey! thanks for pointing it
out. The mischievous computer gremlin strikes again
swaping and removing my keystrokes randomly (thats my
story and I am sticking to it). One of these days I
will have to open up my computer and introduce myself
to him.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On 16 Aug 2002 11:03:09 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)
wrote:

>To rely on the individual's ability to correctly put all
>of what has been purchased onto CDROM is riskier than to
>reply on the manufacturer doing so, since there is a
>wider audience for the manufacturer's work.  If there
>is an error, it will likely be encountered by the successor
>of the individual who made the purchase, after they have
>left the company.

That's a good point as, even if it was an ISO image, there is little
gaurantee (without checking the checksums, and who does that? :-) that
the image has been written correctly.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3d60ac7d.1799807@news.demon.co.uk>, john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) writes:
> On 16 Aug 2002 11:03:09 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)
> wrote:
> 
>>To rely on the individual's ability to correctly put all
>>of what has been purchased onto CDROM is riskier than to
>>reply on the manufacturer doing so, since there is a
>>wider audience for the manufacturer's work.  If there
>>is an error, it will likely be encountered by the successor
>>of the individual who made the purchase, after they have
>>left the company.
> 
> That's a good point as, even if it was an ISO image, there is little
> gaurantee (without checking the checksums, and who does that? :-) that
> the image has been written correctly.

In and of itself, the ISO-9660 format does not provide for checksums.
But anything an individual could provide would merely check that what
they had committed to optical disc matched what they had on magnetic
disk, which is not a strong guarantee that it matches that which the
originator produced.  In particular I would be concerned about damage
to files that were not needed for day-to-day use but only for special
occasions such as upgrading to the next version of the operating system.

Not having proper versions of those files might go unnoticed for a
while, and when (if) the problem was fully analyzed, obtaining old
versions from many software originators might pose problems.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Keith Thompson]

john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) writes:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:44:22 +0200, Preben Randhol
> <randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote:
> 
> >> Ask an accountant :-)
> 
> >Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
> >Manual from a shop,
> 
> Oh yes! That's right. But where can you buy e.g. GNAT (public) on a CD
> in a box with a printed manual?

I have a CD writer and a printer.  How much are you offering?

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center           <*>  <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Schroedinger does Shakespeare: "To be *and* not to be"

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

"Keith Thompson" wrote:
> I have a CD writer and a printer.  How much are you offering?

IMO value of GNAT is in the product, not in a CD or manuals. I am willing to
pay _ACT_ for anything (CD, manuals, t-shirt, coffee mug...) if that's the
only way a small company can support GNAT development without getting
discriminated.

Juha






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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote in message
news:3d5d6c93$1_6@news.newsgroups.com...

> IMO value of GNAT is in the product, not in a CD or manuals. I am willing
to
> pay _ACT_ for anything (CD, manuals, t-shirt, coffee mug...) if that's the
> only way a small company can support GNAT development without getting
> discriminated.

I am confused now.  Why can't you make them an offer for a service you
require?   The worst they could do is refuse your offer.

-CRM

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

"Chad R. Meiners" wrote:
> I am confused now.  Why can't you make them an offer for a service you
> require?   The worst they could do is refuse your offer.
>
> -CRM

I did that. The answer was: 5 developer minimum.

I asked for one license custom solution that would include following:
-downloadable binaries for GPS & GNAT Pro
-downloadable documentation
-normal updates as they release new versions
-bug fixes or other workarounds if there are any bugs

and not include the following:
-general Ada/GNAT feature usage support
-Optional add-on items (GTK/Ada,...)

I am not saying the 5 dev license isn't acceptable solution. I am still
comparing other options (C++ / ObjectAda /...) and I started this poll
hoping to get some positive response that would make it more likely some
company (ACT, Aonix, Rational, ...) would produce something more ideal to me
(and I believe for many other Ada users too). So far this thread has caused
mostly noise, which is my fault as I started the thread, but that was a risk
I had to take if I wanted to talk (Ada related) business issues on cla. No
one is right or wrong about business issues (,so everyone has an opinion)
and only a few companies are actually in position where they can change
their target user group. These companies will decide if Ada will be used in
embedded/high reliability application only or if it will see more use in
general computing.

Juha





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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

"Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote in message news:<3d5d6c93$1_6@news.newsgroups.com>...

> IMO value of GNAT is in the product, not in a CD or 
> manuals. I am willing to pay _ACT_ for anything (CD, 
> manuals, t-shirt, coffee mug...)

There must be some confusion here. Like Microsoft, we are
a software company, we sell software and support services
for that software, we are not in the t-shirt or mug business!

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

"Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote in message
news:5ee5b646.0208170214.449bc476@posting.google.com...
> "Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote in message
news:<3d5d6c93$1_6@news.newsgroups.com>...
>
> > IMO value of GNAT is in the product, not in a CD or
> > manuals. I am willing to pay _ACT_ for anything (CD,
> > manuals, t-shirt, coffee mug...)
>
> There must be some confusion here. Like Microsoft, we are
> a software company, we sell software and support services
> for that software, we are not in the t-shirt or mug business!

Hi Robert,

Nice to hear that, could you make me an offer for 1 developer support deal?
Just remove the x from my domain name to reply. Even better if you are
willing to offer a special deal that would cost you less and still get you
money to develop GNAT:
included:
  -downloadable binaries for GPS & GNAT Pro
  -downloadable documentation
  -normal updates as you release new versions
  -bug fixes or other workarounds if there are any bugs (this service
wouldn't have to be as high priority as it's usually)

not included:
  -general Ada/GNAT feature usage support
  -Optional add-on items (GTK/Ada,...)

I believe this kind of deal wouldn't burder your support people as much as
ordinary support deal and you still would get money. The fact I am willing
to pay for anything should be an indication of frustration I feel as a small
developer. Like I said before, 5 dev deal is not impossible, but for what it
costs me I am likely to find better ways to invest my money. I would love to
use Ada, but I am in the same situation many start-ups are: There is just
certain amount of money (that's the price of freedom) and spending more
means I have to find more income to keep development going. (Those who need
only Windows platform are lucky, they have more options, but I happen to
need many platforms)

Juha





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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <5ee5b646.0208170214.449bc476@posting.google.com>, dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes:
> "Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote in message news:<3d5d6c93$1_6@news.newsgroups.com>...
> 
>> IMO value of GNAT is in the product, not in a CD or 
>> manuals. I am willing to pay _ACT_ for anything (CD, 
>> manuals, t-shirt, coffee mug...)
> 
> There must be some confusion here. Like Microsoft, we are
> a software company, we sell software and support services
> for that software, we are not in the t-shirt or mug business!

If you are not in the t-shirt business, you are not like Microsoft.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[chris.danx]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:

> If you are not in the t-shirt business, you are not like Microsoft.

Not a good idea to say you're like Microsoft anyway.  Well unless your 
licenses give you the right to snoop on your customers machines and 
install patches as you see fit, which certainly isn't the case for ACT.

-- 
for personal replies change 'spamoff' to 'chris'

Point of Information was RE: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert C. Leif]

From: Bob Leif
To: Robert Dewar et al.
At the Microsoft store and picnic, there were T shits for sale by
Microsoft.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kilgallen
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 7:03 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

In article <5ee5b646.0208170214.449bc476@posting.google.com>,
dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes:
> "Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote in message
news:<3d5d6c93$1_6@news.newsgroups.com>...
> 
>> IMO value of GNAT is in the product, not in a CD or 
>> manuals. I am willing to pay _ACT_ for anything (CD, 
>> manuals, t-shirt, coffee mug...)
> 
> There must be some confusion here. Like Microsoft, we are
> a software company, we sell software and support services
> for that software, we are not in the t-shirt or mug business!

If you are not in the t-shirt business, you are not like Microsoft.

Re: Point of Information was RE: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

"Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1029611162.24654.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>...

> From: Bob Leif
> To: Robert Dewar et al.
> At the Microsoft store and picnic, there were T shits for 
> sale by Microsoft.


Yes, but this is not to make money for Microsoft, this is
a publicity effort :-)

Actually we give away our stuff (mugs, frizbies, mouse pads
etc) rather than seeling them :-)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Richard Riehle]

Robert Dewar wrote:

> There must be some confusion here. Like Microsoft, we are
> a software company, we sell software and support services
> for that software, we are not in the t-shirt or mug business!

Dogggggonnnnnnit!  Just when I was thinking I might like a
nice big ACT coffee mug with a picture of Robert on it.  :-)

Richard Riehle

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) wrote in message news:<3d5cfa8e.16958234@news.demon.co.uk>...

> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say 
> "there you go,
> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where 
> is it?" and
> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're 
> going to say
> to that?

Please don't invent problems where none exist. This is
almost never a problem in practice. One or two times out
of hundreds of customers, we have had to ship a box with
a CD ROM, and indeed now we always ship a box with a 
CD ROM, but not because of any accountants, but rather
we think people like to have a nice set of printer manuals
and a box!

Going back to accountants. Suppose you work for an airline
and you tell the accountant that you have just signed a
1.7 million dollar order for maintenance of front wing
doohickeys, do you think the accountant is concerned there
is no physical box. Of course not :-)

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Keith Thompson]

dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) writes:
[...]
> Going back to accountants. Suppose you work for an airline
> and you tell the accountant that you have just signed a
> 1.7 million dollar order for maintenance of front wing
> doohickeys, do you think the accountant is concerned there
> is no physical box. Of course not :-)

Of course not; he'll be more concerned that you're spending 1.7
million dollars of the airline's money to maintain "doohickeys".  8-)}

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center           <*>  <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Schroedinger does Shakespeare: "To be *and* not to be"

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On 17 Aug 2002 03:11:21 -0700, dewar@gnat.com (Robert Dewar) wrote:

Robert

>> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say 
>> "there you go,
>> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where 
>> is it?" and
>> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're 
>> going to say
>> to that?
>
>Please don't invent problems where none exist. This is
>almost never a problem in practice.

This problem certainly does exist, possibly not in your world, but
this situation has certainly arisen where I've worked.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[pontius]

In article <3d5cfa8e.16958234@news.demon.co.uk>,
	john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) writes:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:44:22 +0200, Preben Randhol
> <randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote:
>
>>> Ask an accountant :-)
>
>>Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
>>Manual from a shop,
>
> Oh yes! That's right. But where can you buy e.g. GNAT (public) on a CD
> in a box with a printed manual?
>
Assuming GNAT has made it into one of the archive collections, there
are places like Cheapbytes where you can buy those. No printed manuals,
and likely a half-dozen CDs, but pick the right set and GNAT would be
somewhere on one of them.

Seems to me that someone could set up a tiny business on the side in
pseudo-competition with ACT in the sub-10-developer arena. Just begin
by selling CDs and hardcopy manuals, maybe support for the public
code version. Feed the fixes back to ACT in a symbiotic fashion. Don't
know how much money there'd be in such a niche, though.

>> but there is no other warrenties from that you
>>download from the net.
>
>>Besides relying on CD-ROM releases only is
>>inherently less secure than also using the net for updates.
>
> I don't disagree with these comments, but I'm a software
> engineer/developer, not an accountant.
>
> If you go to your [large] company's accountat and say "there you go,
> I've spent $1000 on software" and they say, "well, where is it?" and
> you say "it's a file on my PC" what do you think they're going to say
> to that?
>
Around here, you don't say, "I've spent..."  You signify your wish to
spend money on software, send it up through the bureaucracy, and
eventually it becomes a Contract.  Hopefully someone else has bought
from the company before, in which case getting the Contract is easy.
Otherwise, the lawyers have their fun with the licensing provisions for
a while, until you hopefully get a Contract.

Once you have a Contract, the accountants are happy.  They don't get
hung up on CDs, boxes, downloads or whatever. In some ways, it seems
more enlightened, in other ways, a giant pain.

Dale Pontius
NOT speaking for IBM

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if..

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <mailman.1029501902.3108.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Preben Randhol <randhol+ada@pvv.org> writes:

> Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
> Manual from a shop, but there is no other warrenties from that you

There is the assurance of a transmission medium with better quality
control and not subject to the great bulk of computer crackers out
there.

> download from the net. Besides relying on CD-ROM releases only is
> inherently less secure than also using the net for updates.

Only if the software being released is shaky in the first place.

(I don't suppose you are under the misapprehension that all computers
are connected to the Internet.)

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if..

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> In article <mailman.1029501902.3108.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Preben Randhol <randhol+ada@pvv.org> writes:
>>Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
>>Manual from a shop, but there is no other warrenties from that you
> 
> There is the assurance of a transmission medium with better quality
> control and not subject to the great bulk of computer crackers out
> there.

But "FlybyNight Co" could be set up to sell you CD-ROM releases. Then
how do you know they didn't just download it from the net and then
burned you a CD? Chances are, that is precisely what they did! ;-)
-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if..

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3D5D272A.6010408@cogeco.ca>, "Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>> In article <mailman.1029501902.3108.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Preben Randhol <randhol+ada@pvv.org> writes:
>>>Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
>>>Manual from a shop, but there is no other warrenties from that you
>> 
>> There is the assurance of a transmission medium with better quality
>> control and not subject to the great bulk of computer crackers out
>> there.
> 
> But "FlybyNight Co" could be set up to sell you CD-ROM releases. Then
> how do you know they didn't just download it from the net and then
> burned you a CD? Chances are, that is precisely what they did! ;-)

If I know the other customers rely on that same CDROM, I have additional
assurance that the CDROM in my possession is good.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if..

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> In article <3D5D272A.6010408@cogeco.ca>, "Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:
> 
>>Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>>
>>>In article <mailman.1029501902.3108.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Preben Randhol <randhol+ada@pvv.org> writes:
>>>
>>>>Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
>>>>Manual from a shop, but there is no other warrenties from that you
>>>
>>>There is the assurance of a transmission medium with better quality
>>>control and not subject to the great bulk of computer crackers out
>>>there.
>>
>>But "FlybyNight Co" could be set up to sell you CD-ROM releases. Then
>>how do you know they didn't just download it from the net and then
>>burned you a CD? Chances are, that is precisely what they did! ;-)
> 
> If I know the other customers rely on that same CDROM, I have additional
> assurance that the CDROM in my possession is good.

All that says is that "misery likes company" ;-)  The underlying possibilities
do not otherwise change.
-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Adrian Hoe]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> John McCabe <john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk> wrote on 16/08/2002 (13:56) :
> 
>>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:11:12 +0200, Preben Randhol
>><randhol+ada@pvv.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote on 16/08/2002 (12:32) :
>>>
>>>>is crucial to me that software be available on CDROM not as a "download".
>>>>
>>>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>Why?
>>>
>>Ask an accountant :-)
>>
> 
> Say you want Debian GNU/Linux you can buy it as a CD and with printed
> Manual from a shop, but there is no other warrenties from that you
> download from the net. Besides relying on CD-ROM releases only is
> inherently less secure than also using the net for updates.
> 
> 

Inventory! When you download the software, you have no inventory but 
you incurred cost while downloading. With high speed connection, 
downloading cost may be next to zero but still has $$$!

-- 
type Dmitry is new Adrian;           -- Adrian Hoe
                                      -- http://adrianhoe.com
                                      -- Remove *nospam* to email

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On 16 Aug 2002 05:25:00 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)
wrote:

>> Why commercially developed? I think people feel there is higher risk in
>> using "without commercial gain" developed packages.[The whole idea might be
>> in error, but if many people feel that way it will affect sales.]

>I favor the traditional business model for several reaons, none of which
>is dislike of Richard Stallman.  I look for something where one can just
>buy software (and updates if needed) without a "10 user minimum".  But it
>is crucial to me that software be available on CDROM not as a "download".

Just for the record, I agree. For many purposes is essential to have
something tangible such as a CD and installation manual.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Preben Randhol]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:25:20 GMT, John McCabe wrote:
> Just for the record, I agree. For many purposes is essential to have
> something tangible such as a CD and installation manual.

If you buy M$ Office or some other program you don't have any warrenties
nor can you call M$ and complain if something doesn't work. It puzzels
me why accountants/lawyer still think that. 

Preben Randhol

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:33:35 +0000 (UTC), Preben Randhol
<randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:25:20 GMT, John McCabe wrote:
>> Just for the record, I agree. For many purposes is essential to have
>> something tangible such as a CD and installation manual.
>
>If you buy M$ Office or some other program you don't have any warrenties
>nor can you call M$ and complain if something doesn't work. It puzzels
>me why accountants/lawyer still think that. 

I'm not questioning the warranties, but many accountants / lawyers
just don't understand computers that well and that software is really
intangible - having a CD/box/manual makes it less intangible in their
eyes and easier to cope with. For example they can assign it an asset
number and put a nice sticker on it so that they can manage
depreciation etc.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

John McCabe wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:33:35 +0000 (UTC), Preben Randhol
> <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:25:20 GMT, John McCabe wrote:
>>
>>>Just for the record, I agree. For many purposes is essential to have
>>>something tangible such as a CD and installation manual.
>>
>>If you buy M$ Office or some other program you don't have any warrenties
>>nor can you call M$ and complain if something doesn't work. It puzzels
>>me why accountants/lawyer still think that. 
> 
> I'm not questioning the warranties, but many accountants / lawyers
> just don't understand computers that well and that software is really
> intangible - having a CD/box/manual makes it less intangible in their
> eyes and easier to cope with. For example they can assign it an asset
> number and put a nice sticker on it so that they can manage
> depreciation etc.

Just burn your own CD when you download the software. Then you have
the option of putting any kind of tracking number on it that your
heart desires.
-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[AG]

"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:3D5D286A.2020208@cogeco.ca...

> Just burn your own CD when you download the software. Then you have
> the option of putting any kind of tracking number on it that your
> heart desires.

Ooops, have you consulted you friendly copyright lawyer?

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

AG wrote:
> "Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
> news:3D5D286A.2020208@cogeco.ca...
> 
>>Just burn your own CD when you download the software. Then you have
>>the option of putting any kind of tracking number on it that your
>>heart desires.
> 
> Ooops, have you consulted you friendly copyright lawyer?

What?!? Your accountant wears a copyright lawyer hat too? ;-)

AFAIK, it is not against any posted copyright to make a CD-ROM
copy of your downloaded GNAT software.
-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Randy Brukardt]

John McCabe wrote in message <3d5cfb75.17189236@news.demon.co.uk>...
>I'm not questioning the warranties, but many accountants / lawyers
>just don't understand computers that well and that software is really
>intangible - having a CD/box/manual makes it less intangible in their
>eyes and easier to cope with. For example they can assign it an asset
>number and put a nice sticker on it so that they can manage
>depreciation etc.

It is worse than that. We learned years ago that your odds of getting
paid for support agreements is much better if you send a box (usually
nearly empty except for a letter) to the official receiving address with
the purchase order number on it. Some companies don't need it (and then
it is harmless), but others refuse to pay until a box is received -- so
sending them one makes their accountants happy.

               Randy Brukardt
               R.R. Software, Inc.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[David Thompson]

Randy Brukardt <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote :
> John McCabe wrote in message <3d5cfb75.17189236@news.demon.co.uk>...
> >I'm not questioning the warranties, but many accountants / lawyers
> >just don't understand computers that well and that software is really
> >intangible - having a CD/box/manual makes it less intangible ...

> It is worse than that. We learned years ago that your odds of getting
> paid for support agreements is much better if you send a box (usually
> nearly empty except for a letter) to the official receiving address with
> the purchase order number on it. ...

With the increased scrutiny of accounting expected due to
recent events, you should probably include a packing list also:

Contents:  100 milli-units software support, left-handed #17, green

Ingredients:  80% nitrogen, 15% oxygen, 3% cellulose

Do not expose to open flame, high humidity, or excessive
with clauses.  Store in a cool, dry partition with at least
25% free space.  Do not use if tamper-proof seal is broken.
Induce vomiting if swallowed.  Have a nice day.


--
- David.Thompson 1 now at worldnet.att.net

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Robert Dewar]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnalps90.50s.randhol+news@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>

> If you buy M$ Office or some other program you don't have 
> any warrenties nor can you call M$ and complain if 
> something doesn't work. It puzzels
> me why accountants/lawyer still think that. 

Maybe because they know something you don't? There is no
such thing as a product with no warranties at all. You
might want to investigate the controversy over the new
proposed uniform commercial code for software that moves
in this direction, but has only been adopted in two states.
You are also assured that the product you are using is
properly licensed for your use.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:38 +0300, "Juha Valimaki"
<juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote:

>The question is: Would you or your company use Ada more if there was Visual
>C++/Metroworks/.. like tools available at reasonable cost?

Possibly.

But from what I remember, when Aonix started selling various editions
of ObjectAda to compete with Visual C++, they didn't get anywhere with
it. I wonder whether people have got into the position of thinking
that, if Ada tools can be acquired at a reasonable cost, aren't they
going to be shit?

Are you aware that ACT are starting to push their GPS product? This
sounds like exactly what is needed (and like what you are suggesting).
I would have loved to have the opportunity to pay, for example,
$150.00 for something like that with tools that would compete with the
standard edition of Visual C++, but I can't see ACT doing that (they
have certainly not shown any interest in the past in that market in my
experience).

However "reasonable price" is all relative. Visual Studio .NET
Professional Edition is around $1000.00, but that includes VB.NET,
VC++.NET, VC#.NET and VJ#.NET so you would probably have to try to
compete with that.

The Standard Edition of VC++.NET is only around $110.00, so could
something like that be produced? I doubt it would be viable for any of
the Ada vendors to do this.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Tarjei T. Jensen]

John McCabe
> But from what I remember, when Aonix started selling various editions
> of ObjectAda to compete with Visual C++, they didn't get anywhere with
> it. I wonder whether people have got into the position of thinking
> that, if Ada tools can be acquired at a reasonable cost, aren't they
> going to be shit?

I still think that the greatest obstacle is the Ada out of box experience. I
have still the feeling that there is a lot of work to be done to get a
toolset which makes one comfortable.

greetings,

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[henderson was no auteur]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:38:32 +0200, "Tarjei T. Jensen"
<tarjei.jensen@kvaerner.com> wrote:

 
>I still think that the greatest obstacle is the Ada out of box experience. 

I have to agree.
I have never used the pro version of GNAT. ( no big bucks here)
However, the free version with the various free IDEs is abyssmal.

It feels like something out of the sixties.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

"John McCabe" wrote:
> Are you aware that ACT are starting to push their GPS product? This
> sounds like exactly what is needed (and like what you are suggesting).
> I would have loved to have the opportunity to pay, for example,
> $150.00 for something like that with tools that would compete with the
> standard edition of Visual C++, but I can't see ACT doing that (they
> have certainly not shown any interest in the past in that market in my
> experience).

At the moment there are two ways to use GNAT: pay for support or just use it
for free. Using it for free doesn't sound like wise business plan if I am
going write a lot of code that depends on the fact GNAT is available on
every platform I need. Paying for support is okay if I get more value from
the product. If I had 10 developers the situation would be different, but as
I am working alone I really have to think if I get best value for my money.
I believe there have been other small development teams that have turned to
other options because of ACT policy. How many potential Ada users are lost
that way nobody knows... It certainly would be great news if ACT started
selling some kind of "limited edition" support or something else that would
make them (at least some) money, but wouldn't burden too much. Damn, if they
sold GNAT CDs for $500 I would buy! (They get money to create a better
product, I get to be more certain there will be tools for me in the future
also)

ObjectAda seems nice product, but it's unfortunately not going to be
available on Macs... (not yet!). OS X is kind of a unix, so I think it would
be good idea to check if the effort to port really is that big. (Well, they
would of course have to support the platform also and it might be bad if
there aren't enough users... I can only hope).

The reason why I need Mac/Linux/Win/Unix (SGI actually) is that I am
developing graphics sw and these days Linux and Mac are gaining very fast
users on that market. If I happened to be planning a plugin for an animation
package it would quite likely have to be available for all these
platforms... ;-)

Juha





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Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[henderson was no auteur]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:27:39 +0300, "Juha Valimaki"
<juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote:

 
>At the moment there are two ways to use GNAT: pay for support or just use it
>for free. Using it for free doesn't sound like wise business plan if I am
>going write a lot of code that depends on the fact GNAT is available on
>every platform I need. Paying for support is okay if I get more value from
>the product. If I had 10 developers the situation would be different, but as
>I am working alone I really have to think if I get best value for my money.

Stop begging Dewar for a special deal then.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[henderson was no auteur]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:25:28 GMT,
john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:38 +0300, "Juha Valimaki"
><juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote:
>
>>The question is: Would you or your company use Ada more if there was Visual
>>C++/Metroworks/.. like tools available at reasonable cost?
>
>Possibly.

Only now there is Visual Studio.NET.
C# totally blows Ada away.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3225nuklajvkhvau1fq387is632addc0cs@4ax.com>, henderson was no auteur <morbid_dreams@cia.gov> writes:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:25:28 GMT,
> john.nospam@nospamassen.nospamdemon.co.uk (John McCabe) wrote:
> 
>>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:38 +0300, "Juha Valimaki"
>><juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The question is: Would you or your company use Ada more if there was Visual
>>>C++/Metroworks/.. like tools available at reasonable cost?
>>
>>Possibly.
> 
> Only now there is Visual Studio.NET.
> C# totally blows Ada away.

I have heard that C# leads to double and triple posting disease.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Larry Kilgallen fed this fish to the penguins on Monday 02 September 
2002 04:32 pm:

> 
> I have heard that C# leads to double and triple posting disease.

        Anything that passes as a synonym for D- must be dangerous <G>

--
 > ============================================================== <
 >   wlfraed@ix.netcom.com  | Wulfraed  Dennis Lee Bieber  KD6MOG <
 >      wulfraed@dm.net     |       Bestiaria Support Staff       <
 > ============================================================== <
 >        Bestiaria Home Page: http://www.beastie.dm.net/         <
 >            Home Page: http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/             <

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[Dale Stanbrough]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:


> > 
> > Only now there is Visual Studio.NET.
> > C# totally blows Ada away.
> 
> I have heard that C# leads to double and triple posting disease.


It's good when people identify themselves so early on. I've put
him in my kill file straight away. 

Dale :-)

Re: Would you use Ada more if...

[Marin D. Condic]

One of the things that hurt Ada in the early days was the fact that for even
rather terrible compilers with no surrounding tools, you were being asked to
pay megabucks for the privilege of using them at all. This was happening
while people were able to get inexpensive Pascal compilers and those with
Unix got C free of charge. (Well, O.K., "bundled in with Unix" so whatever
you paid for the system included some payment for C. But the point was you
didn't have to go beg your boss to spend a hundred thousand for a compiler
and the custom hardware to run it on.)

Now, while Ada has certainly come down in cost to be competitive with other
languages, it still suffers in some respects for lack of nice integrated
toolsets all available in a shrink-wrap package on the shelf at CompUSA.
Things are getting better and more/better integrated toolsets are becoming
available or are in the works. You still won't see Ada standing next to the
C/C++/Java/Basic/etc. development kits on the shelves at computer stores. It
would be good for Ada to be there. If your plan is to work on producing more
or better integrated development tools for Ada, I'd say that was a noble
goal. It doesn't guarantee success, but these days, I think its the price of
admission for a language to be competitive.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com

Enabling Digital.
Our Vision is to be the biggest supplier worldwide of digital gateway
technology.
www.pacemicro.com

"Juha Valimaki" <juha.valimaki@xdsloy.com> wrote in message
news:ajie5a$oqv$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> hi,
>
> I have been looking for Ada tools for my one man company. There are many
Ada
> compilers/tools on the market each with their own strong and weak points,
> but I feel there would still be room for another tool set (probably from
> some already existing developer...).

Re: Would you use Ada more if...

[Richard Riehle]

"Marin D. Condic" wrote:

> Now, while Ada has certainly come down in cost to be competitive with other
> languages, it still suffers in some respects for lack of nice integrated
> toolsets all available in a shrink-wrap package on the shelf at CompUSA.
> Things are getting better and more/better integrated toolsets are becoming
> available or are in the works. You still won't see Ada standing next to the
> C/C++/Java/Basic/etc. development kits on the shelves at computer stores. It
> would be good for Ada to be there.

What is just as bad is that no Ada books appear on the shelves
of bookstores anymore, even those that specialize in computer
books.   Book publishers, all of them as nearly as I can determine,
have decided against publishing any new Ada books.   Their view
is that, once the DoD abandoned Ada, the market for Ada books
would decline to a point where it would be unprofitable.

At several bookstores, I even saw books on Pascal, Modula-3,
and other marginal languages.   People who don't see Ada in
evidence anywhere are likely to thing it really is gone.

At present, there is no significant effort within our industry to
raise the level of visibility for Ada.   No one is writing articles,
and even if they do, editors are disinclined to publish anything
too directly related to Ada.  The best way to get an Ada article
published is to write about something else and "Oh, by the way,
we did this in Ada."   Even the large number of stories written
about the Boeing 777 rarely mention that the language used
was Ada.   However, when an Arianne V explodes, everyone
is quick to note that it was programmed in Ada.   We really
need a more effective effort in PR.

I continue to encounter professors where I teach who are surprised
that anyone is still using Ada.   A conference program chair who
wanted me to present a tutorial stated emphatically, "But no Ada,
please."    If the new audience for Ada is not getting the message,
we are in deep trouble.

ACT is doing its part by providing cost-effective options for
entering the world of Ada.   I would be surprised if they are
getting a lot of new customers just starting to use Ada for the
first time.  My guess is that most of the customers for most of
the Ada compiler publishers are continuing from Ada 83
rather than starting new projects in Ada 95.   Does anyone
have better information about this?

Richard Riehle

Re: Would you use Ada more if...

[Marin D. Condic]

Well, its not that hard to understand. Bookstores don't want to stock books
unless some fair number of people are going to pick them up off the shelf
and pay for them. Conference organizers don't want to bring in lectures that
folks won't find relevant to their current work or needs. Magazines don't
want to publish articles advocating a language that is perceived as having
largely been ignored. You can't really blame people for following the
market.

I am convinced that better PR is a) not likely to happen and b) not likely
to change anything. We in the Ada community tend to stand around saying
"Look, its a really great language..." - which may be true, but is not
nearly so compelling as "Here's this spiffy thing I built with Ada...." or
"Here's how I made my first million dollars with Ada..." (The two possibly
being closely related.)

You observe that articles about other things with an "Oh, by the way, it was
done with Ada..." line is right on track. People want to see that something
cool was done and will be less concerned about the language. If what was
done was truly cool, they'll pick up the code and start fiddling around with
it and you'll find new converts to the language that way. I doubt people
want to read dozens of articles about how cool *any* language is. They'd
rather read an article on how someone implemented some tricky math thing or
clever navigation thing or internet web thing and if they discover that it
was done with Ada, they'll have an incentive to learn something about the
language.

Likewise, if a software product is built and a successful business is
established selling it (or related services & support - it amounts to the
same thing) that's the sort of thing that people will take notice of. If Ada
is *really* better at building mousetraps, then it would seem that a little
entrepreneurial activity along those lines will be rewarded. When someone
can stand up and say "We're making more money than our competitors and one
of the big reasons for that is our software quality due to Ada..." its going
to get noticed and immitated. When someone dreams up a new electronic gadget
and programs it in Ada, it will help create that critical mass. When someone
develops a new business system and programs it in Ada, they'll create more
Ada jobs and more interest in the language will result. The way for Ada to
become a market force is for the Ada-philes to construct a market that uses
Ada.

When that happens, the PR will be a natural outflow. Waiting for some
organization to start a PR campaign is probably fruitless, but creating
success will breed more success and with it will come the favorable PR.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com

Enabling Digital.
Our Vision is to be the biggest supplier worldwide of digital gateway
technology.
www.pacemicro.com

"Richard Riehle" <richard@adaworks.com> wrote in message
news:3D612669.2B0BA48C@adaworks.com...
>
> What is just as bad is that no Ada books appear on the shelves
> of bookstores anymore, even those that specialize in computer
> books.   Book publishers, all of them as nearly as I can determine,
<snip>

Re: Would you use Ada more if...

[Juha Valimaki]

Well, I would like to choose Ada... I have been using mostly C/C++ so far,
but some time ago I discovered Ada, and I like it. It's just a language and
there are many other factors that affect productivity, so Ada itself may not
be the silver bullet, but it would help. I like to think that Ada is like my
personal assistant that can point out mistakes and guide me. All the effort
that has gone to designing the language and tools is available every time I
compile my code. It's like having an extra worker :-)

(Of course, Ada can be a burden too, for example when I have to interface
other languages. I don't see that as a major problem if I only have to
create a new bindings to something once in a while, but it's time that could
be used more productively.)

Juha

Re: Would you use Ada more if...

[John McCabe]

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:10:01 -0700, Richard Riehle
<richard@adaworks.com> wrote:

>At several bookstores, I even saw books on Pascal, Modula-3,
>and other marginal languages.

As far as I'm aware, Pascal is still a common teaching language. Given
that Modula-3 is similar but with the modular stuff built-in I guess
that is also used to teach. From what I remember of Modula-2, it was a
much easier progression to that from Pascal than to Ada.

Re: Would you use Ada more if...

[Kevin Cline]

"Marin D. Condic" <not.valid@acm.org> wrote in message news:<ajj0hq$f6$1@nh.pace.co.uk>...
> One of the things that hurt Ada in the early days was the fact that for even
> rather terrible compilers with no surrounding tools, you were being asked to
> pay megabucks for the privilege of using them at all. This was happening
> while people were able to get inexpensive Pascal compilers and those with
> Unix got C free of charge. (Well, O.K., "bundled in with Unix" so whatever
> you paid for the system included some payment for C. But the point was you
> didn't have to go beg your boss to spend a hundred thousand for a compiler
> and the custom hardware to run it on.)

This was definitely a large factor that slowed adoption of Ada. 
Another
major factor was (and still is) the difficulty of using Ada to write
typical desktop applications.  As late as 1988 there still was no
standard binding to
POSIX services nor to X-Windows, and Ada-83 didn't even provide a
portable
way to write such a binding.  And of course the infamous inability to
pass
functions as arguments made event-driven programming nearly
impossible.
So even though Ada-83 was a much safer language than C, the startup
costs for typical (non-embedded) application development were
enormous.

> 
> Now, while Ada has certainly come down in cost to be competitive with other
> languages, it still suffers in some respects for lack of nice integrated
> toolsets all available in a shrink-wrap package on the shelf at CompUSA.
> Things are getting better and more/better integrated toolsets are becoming
> available or are in the works. You still won't see Ada standing next to the
> C/C++/Java/Basic/etc. development kits on the shelves at computer stores...

I don't think an IDE is all that important.  New languages (e.g. Perl,
PHP, Python, Ruby) have appeared and gained a fairly large following
without an IDE.

Re: POLL: Would you use Ada more if...

[chris.danx]

Juha Valimaki wrote:
> hi,
> 
 > [snip]
 >
> The question is: Would you or your company use Ada more if there was Visual
> C++/Metroworks/.. like tools available at reasonable cost? By "Visual
> C++/Metroworks/.. like" I mean products that are easy to buy from any web
> shop, are commercially developed and can be "used together" to get wide
> platform support (Mac/Linux/Win/Unix).

I personally would use it more if there was an open source tool that 
incorporated UML, *use cases in and of themselves*  (they're not just 
diagrams, so it'd be nice to attach a use case to a use case entity in a 
UML use case diagram.  Double click on the entity and it opens the 
associated use case, sorted!  Just a convienance really), project 
management, code generation in a language independant way (that is the 
tool is not tightly coupled to one or even a couple of languages, in 
short it is capable of handling any language you chose to tell it 
exists!) and had a degree of platform and tool independance.  This is 
really a design issue, but that's what keeps me from coding nowadays, 
i.e. design.



> P.S. simple YES/NO replies would make this poll easier to follow :-)

Obviously missed that bit.  Yes and no.  Depends what else it had to offer.


-- 
for personal replies change 'spamoff' to 'chris'