Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Michal Nowak]

On 2002-05-23 at 20:09 byhoe@greenlime.com wrote:

>Try Linux! You will fall in love with it. I once tried Linux
>(OpenLinux 1.2) and I did not quite like it. After a while of mingling
>around, I started to love it. I am an advance user nowaday!

Linux is becoming good option for wider part of community. It supports 
more and more devices and is easier to maintain. However, there
are still some configuration issues, which require more computer 
skills and knowledge than non-cs folk has. To force my TV card work
with S3 Savage 4 card I had to do some kernel tweaking (and it still
is a bit unstable). There is still too much black magic for a typical
user. Well, using Linux I may feel a bit like a wizard among "normal"
users :-). Hmm, I like this possibility to have whole system under 
control, where there are no "super-clever" creators which wants to
do everything for me. I'm still dual systems user (not exactly - 
two Linux installations + FreeBSD + Win 95), but the proportions
are changing towards Linux. Two years ago I was mostly on Win, but 
now it is Linux. I hope to switch to Linux/BSD in nearest future.
I may miss AdaGIDE, but maybe it will be possible to run it 
through Wine.

To cheer up a bit. Most people after taking some course of using 
MS Windows&Co. put in their resumes point: "Skill in using a computer",
where it should be "Skill in using MS Word & Excel under MS Windows".
One day, when I was away, a neighbor of mine asked my Mother, if he
can print something urgent on my PC. She let him in, he turned on
the PC, and Linux booted up. She told me then, that after seeing 
all startup messages and landing in console mode he panicked a bit
and resigned from his urgent printout...

  Mike

"In the world of machines, virtual machines,
dominated by software ...
                  ... a new culture is born"

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Preben Randhol]

On Sat, 25 May 2002 23:38:14 +0200, Michal Nowak wrote:
> 
> Linux is becoming good option for wider part of community. It supports 
> more and more devices and is easier to maintain. However, there
> are still some configuration issues, which require more computer 
> skills and knowledge than non-cs folk has. To force my TV card work
> with S3 Savage 4 card I had to do some kernel tweaking (and it still
> is a bit unstable). There is still too much black magic for a typical
> user. Well, using Linux I may feel a bit like a wizard among "normal"
> users :-). Hmm, I like this possibility to have whole system under 

The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for themselves
how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to
share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by
the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can
be much easier on Windows.

When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that this
may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all
the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I
installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I
installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the
computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the
underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to
Windows. Besides it is much easier for me to maintain his computer (now
that he has Linux) even if I reside 1000 km away from home.

Preben

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Michal Nowak]

On 2002-05-26 at 09:37 Preben Randhol wrote:

>The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for themselves
>how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to
>share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by
>the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can
>be much easier on Windows.

Yes, I know that. That is real pain for Linux users. I signed a petition
some months ago directed to hardware manufacturers. It was a request that
they notice growing Linux community and cooperate with Linux developers
to create device drivers. It was on http://www.libranet.com/petition.html
but it seems it is closed now. However Polish version still exists. 
I hope they succeeded in collecting enough signatures to be noticed.

>When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that this
>may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all
>the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I
>installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I
>installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the
>computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the
>underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to
>Windows.

I do not claim that Linux is unusable for non-cs people, but there was
my observation. What I saw is, if they had no "click-click-do-all-for-me
-graphical-wizard", they fell lost/are too lazy(?)/want more convenience
in using system. It reminds me some post we had on CLA concerning GUIs
- "click-click-do-all-for-me-graphical-environment". Well...

Cheers,
Mike

"In the world of machines, virtual machines,
dominated by software ...
                  ... a new culture is born"

RE: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Robert C. Leif]

From: Bob Leif
To: Michal Nowak et al.

An XML based GUI that was powered by Ada including the use of protected
types and tasking could be much easier to use than Windows. This XML GUI
would also be much more reliable and efficient than Windows. 

Incidentally for normal mortals, I highly recommend EasyDesktop
www.microseconds.com
It employs a revolutionary GUI based on words. No icons. This makes it
very easy to use for those of us who were educated with a Western
alphabet.

As for the device drivers, writing them in Ada should facilitate their
reuse in multiple similar products, such as graphics boards. Eventually
XSL FOP could be part of the driver for both printers and graphics
boards.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Michal Nowak
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 2:23 AM
To: comp.lang.ada usegroup->mailing list gateway
Subject: Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

On 2002-05-26 at 09:37 Preben Randhol wrote:

>The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for
themselves
>how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to
>share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by
>the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can
>be much easier on Windows.

Yes, I know that. That is real pain for Linux users. I signed a petition
some months ago directed to hardware manufacturers. It was a request
that
they notice growing Linux community and cooperate with Linux developers
to create device drivers. It was on
http://www.libranet.com/petition.html
but it seems it is closed now. However Polish version still exists. 
I hope they succeeded in collecting enough signatures to be noticed.

>When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that
this
>may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all
>the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I
>installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I
>installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the
>computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the
>underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to
>Windows.

I do not claim that Linux is unusable for non-cs people, but there was
my observation. What I saw is, if they had no "click-click-do-all-for-me
-graphical-wizard", they fell lost/are too lazy(?)/want more convenience
in using system. It reminds me some post we had on CLA concerning GUIs
- "click-click-do-all-for-me-graphical-environment". Well...

Cheers,
Mike

"In the world of machines, virtual machines,
dominated by software ...
                  ... a new culture is born"

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[chris.danx]

"Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1022595242.12403.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> From: Bob Leif
> To: Michal Nowak et al.
>
> An XML based GUI that was powered by Ada including the use of protected
> types and tasking could be much easier to use than Windows. This XML GUI
> would also be much more reliable and efficient than Windows.

Can you provide some details of XML guis or your thoughts? (or are they a
secret, incase someone rips off your ideas?)  This has popped up once or
twice here in the past, but there hasn't been much debate or indeed provided
information on the marrying of XML and a GUI.


> Incidentally for normal mortals, I highly recommend EasyDesktop
> www.microseconds.com
> It employs a revolutionary GUI based on words. No icons. This makes it
> very easy to use for those of us who were educated with a Western
> alphabet.

it's a bit *different*, eh?


> As for the device drivers, writing them in Ada should facilitate their
> reuse in multiple similar products, such as graphics boards. Eventually
> XSL FOP could be part of the driver for both printers and graphics
> boards.

Some OS developers in aod have taken an interest in UDI, Ada might be a
perfect partner to this but since I don't know what UDI specifies in terms
of types (if anything) I can't say whether there would be a great benefit in
a mix of the two.

Depending on how things go this summer, I hope to have a small microkernel
(think L4 small) finally in development.  Nick Roberts (right second name?
apologies to Nick if it isn't) is also planning a microkernel and it'll be
interesting to contrast the designs; which can only improve each others
efforts  (although it will help to bare in mind that the projects aim to
meet different requirements, with each design reflecting this.  Obvious, but
better said than left to chance).


Chris

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[chris.danx]

"chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pUcJ8.1671$D3.149718@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> Some OS developers in aod have taken an interest in UDI, Ada might be a
> perfect partner to this but since I don't know what UDI specifies in terms
> of types (if anything) I can't say whether there would be a great benefit
in
> a mix of the two.

Something I forgot which may be of interest to some is Devil (maybe it's
been mentioned before).  This is an idl for specifying programming
interfaces to hardware via abstractions.

At present the thing seems to have stalled, perhaps if there was enough
interest inria might put it into the open and it could be modified to
generate Ada code instead of C.

a page is available at
http://compose.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/prototypes/devil/specs/ for any who find
this concept interesting?

RE: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Robert C. Leif]

From: Bob Leif
To: Chris Danx et al.
Absolutely, no secret! I spoke about it at my XML workshop at SIGAda
2001 and submitted a paper to Ada Letters. If anyone wants a copy, write
to me directly.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of chris.danx
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 3:48 PM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)


"Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1022595242.12403.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> From: Bob Leif
> To: Michal Nowak et al.
>
> An XML based GUI that was powered by Ada including the use of
protected
> types and tasking could be much easier to use than Windows. This XML
GUI
> would also be much more reliable and efficient than Windows.

Can you provide some details of XML guis or your thoughts? (or are they
a
secret, incase someone rips off your ideas?)  This has popped up once or
twice here in the past, but there hasn't been much debate or indeed
provided
information on the marrying of XML and a GUI.


> Incidentally for normal mortals, I highly recommend EasyDesktop
> www.microseconds.com
> It employs a revolutionary GUI based on words. No icons. This makes it
> very easy to use for those of us who were educated with a Western
> alphabet.

it's a bit *different*, eh?


> As for the device drivers, writing them in Ada should facilitate their
> reuse in multiple similar products, such as graphics boards.
Eventually
> XSL FOP could be part of the driver for both printers and graphics
> boards.

Some OS developers in aod have taken an interest in UDI, Ada might be a
perfect partner to this but since I don't know what UDI specifies in
terms
of types (if anything) I can't say whether there would be a great
benefit in
a mix of the two.

Depending on how things go this summer, I hope to have a small
microkernel
(think L4 small) finally in development.  Nick Roberts (right second
name?
apologies to Nick if it isn't) is also planning a microkernel and it'll
be
interesting to contrast the designs; which can only improve each others
efforts  (although it will help to bare in mind that the projects aim to
meet different requirements, with each design reflecting this.  Obvious,
but
better said than left to chance).


Chris

RE: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Michal Nowak]

On 2002-05-28 at 07:13 Robert C. Leif wrote:

>From: Bob Leif
>To: Michal Nowak et al.
>
>An XML based GUI that was powered by Ada including the use of protected
>types and tasking could be much easier to use than Windows. This XML GUI
>would also be much more reliable and efficient than Windows. 

Do you have any research, papers, whatever, why XML would be more
reliable? I hope you haven't wote it beceause XML is now hot subject,
so there must be some reasons. What are they?

>Incidentally for normal mortals, I highly recommend EasyDesktop
>www.microseconds.com
>It employs a revolutionary GUI based on words. No icons. This makes it
>very easy to use for those of us who were educated with a Western
>alphabet.
>
>As for the device drivers, writing them in Ada should facilitate their
>reuse in multiple similar products, such as graphics boards.

Agree. It should be also easier to get to know what's going on in the
code, thanks to Ada's readibility. Sometimes when I dig in Linux sources,
it is not so straightforward to discover what was programmer's intent...

Mike

"In the world of machines, virtual machines,
dominated by software ...
                  ... a new culture is born"

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Marin David Condic]

I have not looked at this extensively, but there are a couple of things that
might apply. XUL is a XML based markup language that aims at describing user
interfaces. I think XForms is something similar - but I don't think these
are highly solidified yet.

The basic idea here would be to have *some* (TBD) XML based markup language
that described the GUI. (Note that GtkAda does this) When the GUI is
interacted with, data could be returned to the application in some XML-based
format. (I think Bob Leif sees a strong correlation between the kinds of
data descriptions possible in XML and Ada so it would be fairly
straightforward to line up data coming out of XML and into Ada structures.
But I wouldn't want to presume to speak for Bob - read his Ada Letters
article.)

So it would be possible to envision an  Ada GUI building scenario that had
XML for the markup of the GUI (enabling the possible use of all sorts of
off-the-shelf tools) and XML for the transfer of data between the GUI engine
and the Ada application. This would give you platform independent GUI
capabilities and the possibility of having applications easily operate on a
client/server model. (The GUI-driving engine need not be on the same
platform as the back-end Ada application - they just need to transfer XML
between each other.)

Its an interesting idea but it would be a lot of work to pull it all
together.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com


"chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pUcJ8.1671$D3.149718@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> Can you provide some details of XML guis or your thoughts? (or are they a
> secret, incase someone rips off your ideas?)  This has popped up once or
> twice here in the past, but there hasn't been much debate or indeed
provided
> information on the marrying of XML and a GUI.
>
>

RE: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Robert C. Leif]

From: Bob Leif
To: Marin David Condic et al.
I agree about reading my Ada Letters article. However, if someone is
motivated to do something, I will gladly send them a preprint. I agree,
"Its an interesting idea but it would be a lot of work to pull it all
together." Hopefully, it would be very profitable.

The creation of an XForms package that was bootstrapped using the
relevant parts of XSL and/or SVG would permit the development of an XML
based GUI. An Ada tool that creates a thick binding to a GUI, such as
Windows, could be morphed into an XML tool. It could even employ Adobe's
SVG browser plug-in. 

XMLSpy (www.xmlspy.com) sells for $399 and they claim that they have
525,710 users worldwide. That is just under $210 million. Obviously, not
all of XMLSpy's users paid retail. However, I suspect that their gross
is pretty good compared to the overall Ada market. XMLSpy, as of yet,
can not do XForms. The use of Ada should provide a significant
competitive advantage over C based languages.

-----Original Message-----
From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org
[mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Marin David Condic
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 6:25 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

I have not looked at this extensively, but there are a couple of things
that
might apply. XUL is a XML based markup language that aims at describing
user
interfaces. I think XForms is something similar - but I don't think
these
are highly solidified yet.

The basic idea here would be to have *some* (TBD) XML based markup
language
that described the GUI. (Note that GtkAda does this) When the GUI is
interacted with, data could be returned to the application in some
XML-based
format. (I think Bob Leif sees a strong correlation between the kinds of
data descriptions possible in XML and Ada so it would be fairly
straightforward to line up data coming out of XML and into Ada
structures.
But I wouldn't want to presume to speak for Bob - read his Ada Letters
article.)

So it would be possible to envision an  Ada GUI building scenario that
had
XML for the markup of the GUI (enabling the possible use of all sorts of
off-the-shelf tools) and XML for the transfer of data between the GUI
engine
and the Ada application. This would give you platform independent GUI
capabilities and the possibility of having applications easily operate
on a
client/server model. (The GUI-driving engine need not be on the same
platform as the back-end Ada application - they just need to transfer
XML
between each other.)

Its an interesting idea but it would be a lot of work to pull it all
together.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com


"chris.danx" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pUcJ8.1671$D3.149718@news8-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> Can you provide some details of XML guis or your thoughts? (or are
they a
> secret, incase someone rips off your ideas?)  This has popped up once
or
> twice here in the past, but there hasn't been much debate or indeed
provided
> information on the marrying of XML and a GUI.
>
>

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Pascal Obry]

I have seen a lot of time now reference to Ada, XML and GUI. You have claimed
that this will be the best way to build GUI with XSLT or Schema or XForms or
SVG. I know well most of these technologies and I fail to see any relation
here!

Please can you describe what you have in mind ?

- How Ada and XML are related ? For me they complement each others like coffee
  and Milk...

- How to build a GUI based on Ada + XML/XSLT ?

- Which kind of widget set will you use ? The one on the browser are just too
  simple for complexe applications.

I think that the list of technology is missing JavaScript. This is the way to
have dynamic on the client side... Ada is nowhere to play a role here... Ada
is good on the server side and middleware...

So again where do you see Ada on this ?

And no I have not yet read your article :), if the answers are there please
send it to me, thanks.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[chris.danx]

"Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1022819409.14626.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> From: Bob Leif
> To: Marin David Condic et al.
> I agree about reading my Ada Letters article. However, if someone is
> motivated to do something, I will gladly send them a preprint.

Forgive my stupidity but what is a preprint?

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Darren New]

"chris.danx" wrote:
> 
> "Robert C. Leif" <rleif@rleif.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1022819409.14626.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org...
> > From: Bob Leif
> > To: Marin David Condic et al.
> > I agree about reading my Ada Letters article. However, if someone is
> > motivated to do something, I will gladly send them a preprint.
> 
> Forgive my stupidity but what is a preprint?

It's a reprint, only before it's published instead of after.

-- 
Darren New 
San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
** http://home.san.rr.com/dnew/DNResume.html **
** http://images.fbrtech.com/dnew/ **

     My brain needs a "back" button so I can
         remember where I left my coffee mug.

Re: [OT] Switching to Linux (was: Microsoft takes on ACT)

[Adrian Hoe]

Michal Nowak wrote:

> On 2002-05-26 at 09:37 Preben Randhol wrote:
> 
> 
>>The point is that the Linux developers have to figure out for themselves
>>how a device works unless the company developing this device wants to
>>share their documentation. Now device drivers are made for Windows by
>>the companies producing them so installing some brand new hardware can
>>be much easier on Windows.
>>
> 
> Yes, I know that. That is real pain for Linux users. I signed a petition
> some months ago directed to hardware manufacturers. It was a request that
> they notice growing Linux community and cooperate with Linux developers
> to create device drivers. It was on http://www.libranet.com/petition.html
> but it seems it is closed now. However Polish version still exists. 
> I hope they succeeded in collecting enough signatures to be noticed.
> 
> 
>>When speaking about the ease of installation, on seem to forget that this
>>may not be so important. Example: my father uses Linux because of all
>>the Windows viruses and all the problems he got using Windows. I
>>installed Windows for him as he had no computer experience. And later I
>>installed Linux. All he has to concern himself with is to use the
>>computer for that he wants to do. He doesn't have to bother with the
>>underlaying drivers etc... And he has no problem with Linux compared to
>>Windows.
>>
> 
> I do not claim that Linux is unusable for non-cs people, but there was
> my observation. What I saw is, if they had no "click-click-do-all-for-me
> -graphical-wizard", they fell lost/are too lazy(?)/want more convenience
> in using system. It reminds me some post we had on CLA concerning GUIs
> - "click-click-do-all-for-me-graphical-environment". Well...
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike
> 
> "In the world of machines, virtual machines,
> dominated by software ...
>                   ... a new culture is born"
> 
> 

I believe with UnitedLinux, things will get smoother... :-)

-- 
Remove *nospam* to email.              -- Adrian Hoe
                                        -- http://adrianhoe.com