* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?
@ 2002-03-07 21:09 Ingo Marks
2002-03-08 12:18 ` Ada image problems, was JGnat support Joachim Schröer
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Ingo Marks @ 2002-03-07 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
Joachim Schr�er <joachim.schroer@dornier.eads.net> wrote:
> The current public version does only support j2sdk1.2 (currently we have
> 1.4.0). From ACT-Europe I got the information that JGnat will not be
> maintained in future due to lack of customer interest.
> We were interested in Ada -> Java technology that has future. Our current
> project demands Java and we have a few hundred thousend loc of (not very
> nice) Ada83. I would prefer a transition to Ada95 and a parallel
> improvement of the code but we need an Ada95 to bytecode compiler.
> Has anyone information about maintenance of other Ada->Java products like
> Aonix ObjectAda/Averstars appletmagic or similar?
>
> J. Schr�er
If ACT-Europe is not willing to support JGNAT anymore, they would possibly be
willing to put JGNAT into Open Source. Would that make sense or doesn't it
matter due to lack of commercial support? I think it's better to support
JGNAT by the public than to let JGNAT disappear into oblivion. Another choice
would be to write a Ada 95 -> Java compiler (and/or Ada95 -> C#) but that
would be pretty much work ;-)
I am sorry about that most programmers prefer light-weight languages like
Java and C# instead of Ada 95. Of course, they seem to be more comfortable
and easier to learn. But my experience with Ada is far better that with all
my previous languages Perl, PHP, Java, C++ etc. The larger the projects the
better the life with Ada. Now the IMHO very best language seems to pass away
- slowly but surely. It's a shame! But there is some hope: In last weeks I
discovered some new websites regarding Ada 95 (for example,
http://www.ada-deutschland.de in German).
By the way: Does anyone know about any Ada support for the Microsoft .NET
platform?
Ingo
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada image problems, was JGnat support. 2002-03-07 21:09 JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA? Ingo Marks @ 2002-03-08 12:18 ` Joachim Schröer 2002-03-08 15:28 ` Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? Joachim Schröer 2002-03-09 7:37 ` JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) Wannabe h4x0r 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Joachim Schröer @ 2002-03-08 12:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Ingo Marks wrote: > Joachim Schr�er <joachim.schroer@dornier.eads.net> wrote: > > >>The current public version does only support j2sdk1.2 (currently we have >>1.4.0). From ACT-Europe I got the information that JGnat will not be >>maintained in future due to lack of customer interest. >>We were interested in Ada -> Java technology that has future. Our current >>project demands Java and we have a few hundred thousend loc of (not very >>nice) Ada83. I would prefer a transition to Ada95 and a parallel >>improvement of the code but we need an Ada95 to bytecode compiler. >>Has anyone information about maintenance of other Ada->Java products like >>Aonix ObjectAda/Averstars appletmagic or similar? >> >>J. Schr�er >> > > If ACT-Europe is not willing to support JGNAT anymore, they would possibly be > willing to put JGNAT into Open Source. Would that make sense or doesn't it > matter due to lack of commercial support? I think it's better to support > JGNAT by the public than to let JGNAT disappear into oblivion. Another choice > would be to write a Ada 95 -> Java compiler (and/or Ada95 -> C#) but that > would be pretty much work ;-) I don't think Ada will disappear. There are too many large systems out there that need maintenance. And there are domains where Ada also will be selected for new projects. But there are more and more projects, not safety critical, no realtime, where new stuff is written in Java or C++. The decision makers are told since years that Ada will die and they assure that this is a self fullfilling prophecy. The young colleagues that come from university only know C++ and Java. Some have difficulties to read type declarations (Is Pascal not taught nowadays). If you tell them of Ada the usual question is: "Is it still used?". There is absolutely no interest in learning, reading about Ada. It's like me in school, I hated learning latin cause noone speaks it. I put the Ada/Java comparision papers into our intranet but noone took the hour reading one of them. In my environment (and I've seen a lot of projects) I see a major problem with Ada. The so called Ada experts are often out of date. They only know Ada83. They often have no clue of OO, protected types, bindings and all this new stuff. They don't read newsgroups, magazins etc. On the other hand you have these young Java guys. They are up to date. And I've seen so many huge and absolutely horribly coded Ada(83) systems. The only reasonable conclusion: The authors of that code knew C or Fortran, where forced to write in Ada and did it without any ambition and without reading a book. I've no idea how this could be changed. I'm tired of fighting these pro Ada wars. > > I am sorry about that most programmers prefer light-weight languages like > Java and C# instead of Ada 95. Of course, they seem to be more comfortable > and easier to learn. But my experience with Ada is far better that with all > my previous languages Perl, PHP, Java, C++ etc. The larger the projects the > better the life with Ada. Now the IMHO very best language seems to pass away > - slowly but surely. It's a shame! But there is some hope: In last weeks I > discovered some new websites regarding Ada 95 (for example, > http://www.ada-deutschland.de in German). This site surely will not help Ada very much! > > By the way: Does anyone know about any Ada support for the Microsoft .NET > platform? > > Ingo > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? 2002-03-07 21:09 JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA? Ingo Marks 2002-03-08 12:18 ` Ada image problems, was JGnat support Joachim Schröer @ 2002-03-08 15:28 ` Joachim Schröer 2002-03-08 19:21 ` Dr. Michael Paus 2002-03-09 7:37 ` JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) Wannabe h4x0r 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Joachim Schröer @ 2002-03-08 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw) You mention an Ada95 -> Java compiler. Has anyone tried to disassamble .class files compiled by an Ada95 to bytecode compiler like JGnat. There are some disassemblers that convert .class files to .java files. J. Schr�er > If ACT-Europe is not willing to support JGNAT anymore, they would possibly be > willing to put JGNAT into Open Source. Would that make sense or doesn't it > matter due to lack of commercial support? I think it's better to support > JGNAT by the public than to let JGNAT disappear into oblivion. Another choice > would be to write a Ada 95 -> Java compiler (and/or Ada95 -> C#) but that > would be pretty much work ;-) > > I am sorry about that most programmers prefer light-weight languages like > Java and C# instead of Ada 95. Of course, they seem to be more comfortable > and easier to learn. But my experience with Ada is far better that with all > my previous languages Perl, PHP, Java, C++ etc. The larger the projects the > better the life with Ada. Now the IMHO very best language seems to pass away > - slowly but surely. It's a shame! But there is some hope: In last weeks I > discovered some new websites regarding Ada 95 (for example, > http://www.ada-deutschland.de in German). > > By the way: Does anyone know about any Ada support for the Microsoft .NET > platform? > > Ingo > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? 2002-03-08 15:28 ` Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? Joachim Schröer @ 2002-03-08 19:21 ` Dr. Michael Paus 2002-03-11 8:55 ` Joachim Schröer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Dr. Michael Paus @ 2002-03-08 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Joachim Schr�er wrote: > > You mention an Ada95 -> Java compiler. Has anyone tried to disassamble > .class files compiled by an Ada95 to bytecode compiler like JGnat. > There are some disassemblers that convert .class files to .java files. Yes, I did but I failed. I took a class file produced by AdaMagic and tried to decompile it. It worked for a trivial hello world example but after I added a little bit more code the decompiler failed. It seems that the Ada compiler produced some legal bytecode which the decompiler could not translate into some legal piece of Java. I finally gave up on this issue. Just for curiosity. For what kind of project do you need an Ada to Java compiler? Michael ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? 2002-03-08 19:21 ` Dr. Michael Paus @ 2002-03-11 8:55 ` Joachim Schröer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Joachim Schröer @ 2002-03-11 8:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Dr. Michael Paus wrote: > Joachim Schr�er wrote: > >>You mention an Ada95 -> Java compiler. Has anyone tried to disassamble >>.class files compiled by an Ada95 to bytecode compiler like JGnat. >>There are some disassemblers that convert .class files to .java files. >> > > Yes, I did but I failed. I took a class file produced by AdaMagic and tried > to decompile it. It worked for a trivial hello world example but after I > added a little bit more code the decompiler failed. It seems that the > Ada compiler produced some legal bytecode which the decompiler could not > translate into some legal piece of Java. I finally gave up on this issue. > > Just for curiosity. For what kind of project do you need an Ada to Java > compiler? > > Michael > First, as other people in this newsgroup I prefer Ada over Java. The other reason: Our current project demands Java (J2EE) and we have a few hundred thousend loc of (not very nice) Ada83. I would prefer a transition to Ada95 and a parallel improvement of the code but we need an Ada95 to bytecode compiler. (I did not ask for an Ada to Java source compiler, but this would be a nice thing). J. Schr�er ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-07 21:09 JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA? Ingo Marks 2002-03-08 12:18 ` Ada image problems, was JGnat support Joachim Schröer 2002-03-08 15:28 ` Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? Joachim Schröer @ 2002-03-09 7:37 ` Wannabe h4x0r 2002-03-09 15:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-03-09 15:50 ` Wes Groleau 2 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Wannabe h4x0r @ 2002-03-09 7:37 UTC (permalink / raw) It would be terribly dissapointing to see the Ada/Java concept pass into oblivion. However, perhaps one could swipe the Java idea entirely and create an Ada bytecode compiler with Java support, rather than the other way around, no? I suspect the added flexibility of Ada(Ada95 in particular) would make this a very useful tool for certain software engineering problems that many of the engineers on this newsgroup are or will be dealing with. I use the word "suspect" because my limited experience with real software engineering doesnt qualify me to make more than a guess. We already have the GNAT runtime libraries. Perhaps that would be a good place to start. Even if only for the research value. i.e. Even a briefe study of the concept could yeild ideas that would have never crossed our minds before. As far as distributed computing and such goes(which is what Java and .NET are designed for, if my understanding is correct) perhaps we could do some research into Grid computing(where Ada95 would really shine I suspect). Check out http://www.globus.org Or maybe I'm off in lala land again. Anyways, I dont suppose it would hurt to take a look at the idea. Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-09 7:37 ` JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) Wannabe h4x0r @ 2002-03-09 15:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-03-11 14:32 ` Wes Groleau 2002-03-09 15:50 ` Wes Groleau 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-03-09 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Here may be a reason that Ada-to-Java-Byte-Code may not have been meeting with much commercial success. If someone is going to build something that runs on the JVM and has to have all that Java stuff around anyway, why create the extra problems of piling on a third-party product? Why not just use the Java stuff and be done with it? This is another case of Ada playing catch-up and going "Me Too!!" and not offering a significant enough perceived advantage to the prospective user. From the non-Ada-ite's perspective (or the non-techie) it gets perceived as "Why should I make my life harder just to use your favorite pet language?" Dredging up "reliability" and "maintainability" and all that to someone developing web applets just doesn't seem to have much advantage. Now if Ada took a look at what the whole Java environment was doing and built its own little world just like Java did and along the way said something to the effect of: "I've got the same capability as the Java development environment, but I do it differently and add all these other spiffy capabilities and give you something useful that you can't get with Java..." then it would have something there. IBM didn't get into the PC business by deciding to make an Apple II clone - they broke new ground and offered the market numerous things you couldn't get with an Apple II. Otherwise there wouldn't have been much incentive to buy an IBM PC if it was just a "me too!" effort. (Some incentive - it is, after all, Big Blue! :-) They'd forever have to chase Apple's tail which ultimately would mean Apple wins. Maybe if Ada offered its own byte code interpreter and libraries and other stuff and maybe built its own GUI based on XML and somehow found a way of saying "This does more/better/faster/cheaper..." it would offer something to the guys doing things in Java now that might convince them to switch. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com Web: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Wannabe h4x0r" <chris@dont.spam.me> wrote in message news:DYii8.7895$Yv2.3042@rwcrnsc54... > > However, perhaps one could swipe the Java idea entirely and create an Ada > bytecode compiler with Java support, rather than the other way around, > no? I suspect the added flexibility of Ada(Ada95 in particular) would > make this a very useful tool for certain software engineering problems > that many of the engineers on this newsgroup are or will be dealing with. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-09 15:09 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-03-11 14:32 ` Wes Groleau 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2002-03-11 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) > Dredging up "reliability" and "maintainability" and all that to someone > developing web applets just doesn't seem to have much advantage. Especially when most of their product re-uses the slapped together classes that come with the JVM. Another reason an Ada Virtual Machine needs to have something going for it is so Ada isn't shooting down it's own reason for existence by adding to the proliferation of incompatible environments. Microsoft already has a "Me, too" in this field with .NET -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-09 7:37 ` JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) Wannabe h4x0r 2002-03-09 15:09 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-03-09 15:50 ` Wes Groleau 2002-03-10 13:34 ` Marc A. Criley 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2002-03-09 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) > However, perhaps one could swipe the Java idea entirely and create an Ada > bytecode compiler with Java support, .... > > We already have the GNAT runtime libraries. Perhaps that would be a good > place to start. .... If I understand you right, you mean an environment where there would be an "Ada Virtual Machine (AVM)" consisting mainly of the run-time libraries and a byte-code interpreter, and a byte-code that includes primitives for the Ada concurrency features? Interesting idea. -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-09 15:50 ` Wes Groleau @ 2002-03-10 13:34 ` Marc A. Criley 2002-03-10 15:34 ` Ingo Marks 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Marc A. Criley @ 2002-03-10 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Wes Groleau wrote: > > > However, perhaps one could swipe the Java idea entirely and create an Ada > > bytecode compiler with Java support, .... > > > > We already have the GNAT runtime libraries. Perhaps that would be a good > > place to start. .... > > If I understand you right, you mean an environment > where there would be an "Ada Virtual Machine (AVM)" > consisting mainly of the run-time libraries and a > byte-code interpreter, and a byte-code that includes > primitives for the Ada concurrency features? > > Interesting idea. I think that's one fork to take, another, though, is simply having a rich set of "standardized", portable, and consistent utility packages ready to go--comparable to the JDK. Marc A. Criley Consultant Quadrus Corporation www.quadruscorp.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-10 13:34 ` Marc A. Criley @ 2002-03-10 15:34 ` Ingo Marks 2002-03-10 19:02 ` Pascal Obry ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ingo Marks @ 2002-03-10 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Marc A. Criley wrote: > Wes Groleau wrote: >> >> > However, perhaps one could swipe the Java idea entirely and create an >> > Ada bytecode compiler with Java support, .... >> > >> > We already have the GNAT runtime libraries. Perhaps that would be a >> > good place to start. .... >> >> If I understand you right, you mean an environment >> where there would be an "Ada Virtual Machine (AVM)" >> consisting mainly of the run-time libraries and a >> byte-code interpreter, and a byte-code that includes >> primitives for the Ada concurrency features? >> >> Interesting idea. > > I think that's one fork to take, another, though, is simply having a > rich set of "standardized", portable, and consistent utility packages > ready to go--comparable to the JDK. > > Marc A. Criley > Consultant > Quadrus Corporation > www.quadruscorp.com I don't think it's a clever idea just to imitate the JDK. An Ada based solution must provide far better features than J2EE and .NET to make Ada attractive to developers. The current big problems Java and .NET suffer is performance. We all know that Java is pretty slow compared to C++ and Ada. AFAIK Microsoft has the same problem with .NET. Here it's not the C# compiler (they have a good JIT compiler for it) but the very slow XML based webservices. In one computer journal MS recently recommended NOT to use .NET based webservices. XML is based on top of HTTP and that on TCPIP, so there is much overhead. Ada provides good networking and tasking capabilities. There exist an Ada based webserver (AWS) which you can compile your own Ada applications into, so that you don't have CGI overhead and compilation overhead (as PHP, Perl, MSIL etc. suffer). With Adas tasking capabilities it should be possible to write network "task" based web applications instead of page (session) based like CGI. Currently you have the choice to use CGI (with C, C++ etc.) or script based server modules (mod_php, mod_perl for Apache, for example). They are all "paged based", that means they must use sessions to recover all user data between page hits (for Java there exists another event based solution). My idea is, that in Ada you could use tasks instead of sessions or events. For every user a "session task" would be started which surveys the user's actions and handle his requests. That way, even realtime behaviour would be possible with Ada based web applications. I haven't heard about any realtime features in Java oder .NET so far. Because Ada has standardized compilers (GNAT) for many platforms (Windows, Linux, BSD, MacOSX, Sun etc.), AWS could run on several platforms and make binary data exchange between different AWS possible. I have played a little bit with AWS, it seems not to be pretty stable yet, but it could be enhanced. The advantages of Ada based web applications are evident: - webserver integrated Ada applications (no CGI overhead, no compilation overhead) - binary data transfer between different AWS platforms (no XML overhead) - session tasks survey user actions and allow proper actions within given time restrictions - better security (due to Ada features (no buffer overflows etc.)) could result to more powerful and much faster solutions than both J2EE and.NET. Ingo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-10 15:34 ` Ingo Marks @ 2002-03-10 19:02 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-10 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-03-10 20:07 ` tmoran 2002-03-10 20:44 ` Ada based web applications ( was JGnat support...) Hans-Olof Danielsson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-10 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Ingo Marks <adv@region-nord.de> writes: > The current big problems Java and .NET suffer is performance. We all know > that Java is pretty slow compared to C++ and Ada. AFAIK Microsoft has the > same problem with .NET. Here it's not the C# compiler (they have a good JIT > compiler for it) but the very slow XML based webservices. In one computer > journal MS recently recommended NOT to use .NET based webservices. XML is > based on top of HTTP and that on TCPIP, so there is much overhead. This is strange, SOAP as been created and pushed by Microsoft. SOAP is XML plus transport layer (one used a lot is HTTP). Of course it is an overhead for an addition style webservices... > Ada provides good networking and tasking capabilities. There exist an Ada > based webserver (AWS) which you can compile your own Ada applications into, > so that you don't have CGI overhead and compilation overhead (as PHP, Perl, > MSIL etc. suffer). With Adas tasking capabilities it should be possible to > write network "task" based web applications instead of page (session) based > like CGI. Currently you have the choice to use CGI (with C, C++ etc.) or > script based server modules (mod_php, mod_perl for Apache, for example). > They are all "paged based", that means they must use sessions to recover > all user data between page hits (for Java there exists another event based > solution). My idea is, that in Ada you could use tasks instead of sessions > or events. For every user a "session task" would be started which surveys > the user's actions and handle his requests. I don't think this is possible. How would you handle 2000 connections at the same time... 2000 tasks, meaning 2000 OS threads, most of them doing just nothing because users are reading most of the time the pages... This would be a big waste of computer resources. BTW, what the problem with current AWS session handling ? Maybe we can improve it... > That way, even realtime > behaviour would be possible with Ada based web applications. I haven't > heard about any realtime features in Java oder .NET so far. > > Because Ada has standardized compilers (GNAT) for many platforms (Windows, > Linux, BSD, MacOSX, Sun etc.), AWS could run on several platforms and make > binary data exchange between different AWS possible. I have played a little > bit with AWS, it seems not to be pretty stable yet, but it could be > enhanced. We are working on it. Version 1.3 should be more stable. But please if you have any problems you can report do so, we'll try to fix that. Without report we just can't find all problems :) > The advantages of Ada based web applications are evident: > > - webserver integrated Ada applications (no CGI overhead, no compilation > overhead) > - binary data transfer between different AWS platforms (no XML overhead) Yet you need SOAP for communication with the outside world. SOAP is an overhead right, but with today computers it is not a big problem and with tomorow computers... > - session tasks survey user actions and allow proper actions within given > time restrictions > - better security (due to Ada features (no buffer overflows etc.)) And since you do not have to spawn executables with AWS, you have better security too. > could result to more powerful and much faster solutions than both J2EE > and.NET. This is indeed something I have experienced. AWS servers can be very fast. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-10 19:02 ` Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-10 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-03-11 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2002-03-10 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> writes: > This is strange, SOAP as been created and pushed by Microsoft. SOAP > is XML plus transport layer (one used a lot is HTTP). Of course it > is an overhead for an addition style webservices... One problem with HTTP as transport layer is that processing a SOAP request can cost a lot of time, during which the TCP connection has to be kept open. People fear that this might kill performance. Anyway, I consider SOAP extremely annoying from a security perspective---the HTTP transport layer was chosen with the purpose to tunnel existing firewalls. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-10 20:19 ` Florian Weimer @ 2002-03-11 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-11 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> writes: > Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> writes: > > > This is strange, SOAP as been created and pushed by Microsoft. SOAP > > is XML plus transport layer (one used a lot is HTTP). Of course it > > is an overhead for an addition style webservices... > > One problem with HTTP as transport layer is that processing a SOAP > request can cost a lot of time, during which the TCP connection has to > be kept open. People fear that this might kill performance. Ok, but you would not argue to close the connection anyway... would you ? If this is done then we are back to HTTP/1.0 without keep-alive connections and this will for sure be a performance-killer ! Transmitting data is not a big deal but opening and closing a connection (socket) is. > Anyway, I consider SOAP extremely annoying from a security > perspective---the HTTP transport layer was chosen with the purpose to > tunnel existing firewalls. Indeed, this is an extremelly nice feature. And about security I don't see the problem. HTTP is a transport layer, you can use HTTP/SSL if you like and if this is not enough you can just crypt the XML payload with DES, RSA or whatever algorithm meets you security expectation. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-10 15:34 ` Ingo Marks 2002-03-10 19:02 ` Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-10 20:07 ` tmoran 2002-03-11 17:41 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-10 20:44 ` Ada based web applications ( was JGnat support...) Hans-Olof Danielsson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2002-03-10 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw) >Ada provides good networking and tasking capabilities. There exist an Ada >based webserver (AWS) which you can compile your own Ada applications into, There exist two public Ada webservers, AWS and smplsrvr (see www.adapower.com), giving a wide choice of features/simplicity. There's also an Ada webserver handling adaic which may be somewhat specialized and is not currently publicly available. There are probably more I don't know about. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-10 20:07 ` tmoran @ 2002-03-11 17:41 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-11 19:15 ` tmoran 2002-03-11 22:17 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-11 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw) tmoran@acm.org writes: > >Ada provides good networking and tasking capabilities. There exist an Ada > >based webserver (AWS) which you can compile your own Ada applications into, > There exist two public Ada webservers, AWS and smplsrvr (see > www.adapower.com), giving a wide choice of features/simplicity. There's > also an Ada webserver handling adaic which may be somewhat specialized > and is not currently publicly available. There are probably more I don't > know about. Just to be fair, AWS is not a simple Web Server but aims at being a complete Web development framework. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-11 17:41 ` Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-11 19:15 ` tmoran 2002-03-11 20:13 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-11 22:17 ` Ted Dennison 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2002-03-11 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>There exist an Ada based webserver (AWS) ... >> There exist two public Ada webservers, AWS and smplsrvr (see >> www.adapower.com), giving a wide choice of features/simplicity. >Just to be fair, AWS is not a simple Web Server but aims at being a complete >Web development framework. Sorry, I thought readers could find the meaning of "features" for AWS by looking at www.adapower.com, but it's apparently not there. And http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry seems to be inaccessible at the moment. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-11 19:15 ` tmoran @ 2002-03-11 20:13 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-11 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw) tmoran@acm.org writes: > >>>There exist an Ada based webserver (AWS) ... > >> There exist two public Ada webservers, AWS and smplsrvr (see > >> www.adapower.com), giving a wide choice of features/simplicity. > >Just to be fair, AWS is not a simple Web Server but aims at being a complete > >Web development framework. > Sorry, I thought readers could find the meaning of "features" for AWS Not a big problem ;) > by looking at www.adapower.com, but it's apparently not there. And > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry > seems to be inaccessible at the moment. It is back now, my provider seems to have had some troubles. Note that there is also a page at: http://libre.act-europe.fr/aws Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) 2002-03-11 17:41 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-11 19:15 ` tmoran @ 2002-03-11 22:17 ` Ted Dennison 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-03-11 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<un0xfrohg.fsf@wanadoo.fr>... > Just to be fair, AWS is not a simple Web Server but aims at being a complete > Web development framework. In other words, you could *use* AWS to create a simple Web server. The SETI@Home service is an example of this. You could also use AWS to create a complex web server. You could also use AWS to create a web *client* (eg: a web crawler). If you want, you could create an entire system that communicates over the web using AWS as the communications layer. At one point we considered that as a way to allow remote CVS and build script access through our uber-protective corporate firewall. -- T.E.D. Home - mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison) Homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada based web applications ( was JGnat support...) 2002-03-10 15:34 ` Ingo Marks 2002-03-10 19:02 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-10 20:07 ` tmoran @ 2002-03-10 20:44 ` Hans-Olof Danielsson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Hans-Olof Danielsson @ 2002-03-10 20:44 UTC (permalink / raw) "Ingo Marks" <adv@region-nord.de> wrote: > > I don't think it's a clever idea just to imitate the JDK. > > An Ada based solution must provide far better features than J2EE and .NET > to make Ada attractive to developers. > > The current big problems Java and .NET suffer is performance. We all know > that Java is pretty slow compared to C++ and Ada. AFAIK Microsoft has the > same problem with .NET. Here it's not the C# compiler (they have a good JIT > compiler for it) but the very slow XML based webservices. In one computer > journal MS recently recommended NOT to use .NET based webservices. XML is > based on top of HTTP and that on TCPIP, so there is much overhead. > > Ada provides good networking and tasking capabilities. There exist an Ada > based webserver (AWS) which you can compile your own Ada applications into, > so that you don't have CGI overhead and compilation overhead (as PHP, Perl, > MSIL etc. suffer). With Adas tasking capabilities it should be possible to > write network "task" based web applications instead of page (session) based > like CGI. Currently you have the choice to use CGI (with C, C++ etc.) or > script based server modules (mod_php, mod_perl for Apache, for example). > They are all "paged based", that means they must use sessions to recover > all user data between page hits (for Java there exists another event based > solution). My idea is, that in Ada you could use tasks instead of sessions > or events. For every user a "session task" would be started which surveys > the user's actions and handle his requests. That way, even realtime > behaviour would be possible with Ada based web applications. I haven't > heard about any realtime features in Java oder .NET so far. > > Because Ada has standardized compilers (GNAT) for many platforms (Windows, > Linux, BSD, MacOSX, Sun etc.), AWS could run on several platforms and make > binary data exchange between different AWS possible. I have played a little > bit with AWS, it seems not to be pretty stable yet, but it could be > enhanced. > > The advantages of Ada based web applications are evident: > > - webserver integrated Ada applications (no CGI overhead, no compilation > overhead) > - binary data transfer between different AWS platforms (no XML overhead) > - session tasks survey user actions and allow proper actions within given > time restrictions > - better security (due to Ada features (no buffer overflows etc.)) > > could result to more powerful and much faster solutions than both J2EE > and.NET. It might be of value to have a look at http://conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/FrontPage and the link from there to "Principled Design of the Modern Web Architecture" to get a good foundation for the thoghts on webserver integrated Ada applications. ( eg No cookies! No frames! ) Hans-Olof ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-03-11 22:17 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-03-07 21:09 JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA? Ingo Marks 2002-03-08 12:18 ` Ada image problems, was JGnat support Joachim Schröer 2002-03-08 15:28 ` Ada -> Java by Java disassemlers? Joachim Schröer 2002-03-08 19:21 ` Dr. Michael Paus 2002-03-11 8:55 ` Joachim Schröer 2002-03-09 7:37 ` JGnat support. was NetBeans and ADA?(Co-opt Java?) Wannabe h4x0r 2002-03-09 15:09 ` Marin David Condic 2002-03-11 14:32 ` Wes Groleau 2002-03-09 15:50 ` Wes Groleau 2002-03-10 13:34 ` Marc A. Criley 2002-03-10 15:34 ` Ingo Marks 2002-03-10 19:02 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-10 20:19 ` Florian Weimer 2002-03-11 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-10 20:07 ` tmoran 2002-03-11 17:41 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-11 19:15 ` tmoran 2002-03-11 20:13 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-11 22:17 ` Ted Dennison 2002-03-10 20:44 ` Ada based web applications ( was JGnat support...) Hans-Olof Danielsson
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