From: Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid>
Subject: Re: Canal+ crash
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 14:31:27 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <lg49sfFbc7aU1@mid.individual.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <v7ijr1$12fk$1@dont-email.me>
On 2024-07-21 12:19, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> On 2024-07-21 10:00, Niklas Holsti wrote:
>> On 2024-07-21 10:22, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>>> On 2024-07-21 03:04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 11:08:47 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-07-20 09:43, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 09:23:11 +0200, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is about the fundamental principle that security cannot be
>>>>>>> added on
>>>>>>> top of an insecure system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, it can. Notice how the Internet itself is horribly
>>>>>> insecure,
>>>>>> yet we are capable of running secure applications and protocols on
>>>>>> top
>>>>>> of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why on earth do we need security updates?
>>>>
>>>> Because computer systems are complex, and new bugs keep being
>>>> discovered
>>>> all the time.
>>>
>>> This does not make sense. You can create a very complex system out of
>>> screwdrivers and still each screwdriver would require no update.
>>>
>>> Systems consist of computers and computers of software modules. There
>>> is nothing inherently complex about making a module safe and bug
>>> free. Security interactions are primitive and 100% functional. There
>>> is no difficult issues with non-functional stuff like real-time
>>> problems.
>>
>> Well, several recent attacks use variations in execution timing as a
>> side-channel to exfiltrate secrets such as crypto keys. The crypto
>> code can be functionally perfect and bug-free, but it may still be
>> open to attack by such methods.
>
> It is always a tradeoff between the value of the information and costs
> of breaking the protection. I doubt that timing attack are much more
> feasible in that respect than brute force.
Security researchers and crypto implementers seem to take timing attacks
quite seriously, putting a lot of effort into making the crucial crypto
steps run in constant time.
>> But certainly, most attacks on SW have used functional bugs such as
>> buffer overflows.
>
> Exactly. Non-functional attacks are hypothetical at best. They rely on
> internal knowledge which is another problem.
As I understand it, the "internal knowledge" needed for timing attacks
is mostly what is easily discoverable from the open source-code of the
SW that is attacked.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-07-21 11:31 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 22+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-07-19 21:41 Canal+ crash Nicolas Paul Colin de Glocester
2024-07-20 7:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-20 7:43 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-20 9:08 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-21 1:04 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-21 7:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-21 8:00 ` Niklas Holsti
2024-07-21 9:10 ` J-P. Rosen
2024-07-21 9:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-21 11:11 ` Nicolas Paul Colin de Glocester
2024-07-21 21:53 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-22 6:36 ` J-P. Rosen
2024-07-23 1:48 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-21 9:19 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-21 11:31 ` Niklas Holsti [this message]
2024-07-21 16:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-21 21:55 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-21 21:52 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-22 7:16 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-23 1:49 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-23 7:06 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2024-07-23 8:36 ` Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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