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From: kurtz@mustang.nrl.navy.mil (Bob Kurtz)
Subject: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?
Date: 1996/07/30
Date: 1996-07-30T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <kurtz-3007960512400001@bdcm46.nrl.navy.mil> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 4tiu6e$kpm@news2.cais.com


In article <4tiu6e$kpm@news2.cais.com>, wtangel@cais3.cais.com (Bill
Angel) wrote:

> In article <4t9vdg$jfb@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>,
> ++           robin <rav@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> wrote:
> >In Ariane, both the active processor and the backup failed at
> >the same time, because it was a *programming* error that was
> >encountered at the same time in both processors, and both
> >processors were shut down at the same time by their respective
> >error handlers.
> 
>         I am under the impression that for the US manned spaceflight
> program (to get to the moon) ,an on-board computer that was serving as a
> backup to the primary computer would have been performing its computations
> using completely different software than the primary computer. By
> utilizing this methodology, the same software "glitch" would not halt both
> systems simultaneously.  Perhaps a group of software developers could be
> tasked with producing a version of the on-board software for Ariane in a
> different computer language than that used by the primary processor. The
> two processors, running simultaneously, would serve to check each other's
> results with greater independence that they apparently do now.
> 
>  -- Bill Angel

A number of people have posted on this topic, about the space shuttle, the
A340, etc.  And I'll admit, there is some value (though expensive) to this
approach.  But...

Very frequently, errors are introduced into large software systems in the
requirements specification and design phases.  These are often problems
that dwarf mere coding errors, and are much more difficult to detect
("Gosh, it all passed unit testing okay...").  The Ariane 501 failure is,
in my opinion, an error of this type.  The root cause of the inertial
navigation system failure was the support for an Ariane 4 alignment
requirement not valid for Ariane 5, along with Ariane 4 trajectory
constraints also not valid for Ariane 5.

This sounds like a serious requirements/design oversight.  It's not clear
that having several developer teams working independently would not result
in two completely different programs that exhibit the same disasterous
behavior.

-- 
Bob Kurtz (kurtz@mustang.nrl.navy.mil)
Hughes STX Corp., US Naval Research Lab, Washington DC




  parent reply	other threads:[~1996-07-30  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 194+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-07-25  0:00 Ariane 5 - not an exception? Simon Bluck
1996-07-25  0:00 ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) Kirk Beitz
1996-07-26  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-26  0:00   ` ++           robin
1996-08-05  0:00     ` Darren C Davenport
1996-08-06  0:00       ` U32872
1996-08-07  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Pascal Martin @lone
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-10  0:00               ` dwnoon
1996-08-11  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-15  0:00                   ` dwnoon
1996-08-16  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20  0:00                       ` dwnoon
1996-08-12  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-15  0:00                 ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-22  0:00                   ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-31  0:00                     ` Ada versus PL/I " Richard Riehle
1996-09-02  0:00                       ` ++           robin
1996-09-02  0:00                         ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-03  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-03  0:00                             ` Robb Nebbe
1996-09-17  0:00                             ` shmuel
1996-09-17  0:00                               ` Jay McFadyen
1996-09-18  0:00                                 ` John McCabe
1996-09-20  0:00                               ` shmuel
1996-09-03  0:00                       ` ++           robin
1996-09-04  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-07  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-06  0:00                             ` PL/I or PL/1 Larry Hazel
1996-09-03  0:00                       ` Ada versus PL/I (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) J. Kanze
1996-09-07  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-09  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-09  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-09  0:00                               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-11  0:00                     ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 " J.Worringen
1996-09-12  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-14  0:00                       ` David Alex Lamb
1996-09-14  0:00                       ` Use DejaNews to retrieve Ariane discussion David Alex Lamb
1996-09-19  0:00                         ` Earl H. Kinmonth
1996-08-11  0:00               ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) ++           robin
     [not found]               ` <4uibvh$References: <Dv45EJ.8r@fsa.bris.ac.uk>
1996-08-16  0:00                 ` A. Grant
1996-08-08  0:00         ` bohn
1996-08-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-23  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00       ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-23  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-26  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-27  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-28  0:00             ` Larry Kilgallen
1996-08-29  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-08-30  0:00               ` David Weller
1996-09-04  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-06  0:00                 ` Sandy McPherson
1996-09-09  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00         ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-26  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-26  0:00         ` Dave Jones
1996-08-27  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-09-04  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-06  0:00                 ` ++           robin
1996-09-18  0:00               ` Merlin Dorfman
1996-09-20  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-30  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-30  0:00           ` John McCabe
1996-09-06  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-06  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-26  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Ariane 5 - not an exception? Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-26  0:00 ` JP Thornley
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-07-29  0:00   ` JP Thornley
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-31  0:00     ` JP Thornley
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Alan Brain
1996-08-02  0:00         ` JP Thornley
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-07-30  0:00     ` John McCabe
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Greg Bond
1996-08-03  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-07-26  0:00 ` ++           robin
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Bill Angel
1996-07-29  0:00     ` Paul_Green
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Lloyd Fischer
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Richard Shetron
1996-07-30  0:00       ` ++           robin
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Nancy Mead
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Steve O'Neill
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Tucker Taft
1996-08-01  0:00       ` root
1996-08-01  0:00         ` Tucker Taft
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Bob Kurtz [this message]
1996-08-04  0:00     ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-08-06  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-05  0:00       ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00       ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00           ` Kirk Bradley
1996-08-14  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-18  0:00           ` PL/I Versus Ada (Was: Arianne ...) Richard Riehle
1996-08-19  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20  0:00             ` Lon Amick
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Tim Dugan
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-28  0:00               ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-29  0:00                 ` Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
1996-08-30  0:00                   ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-30  0:00                     ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-30  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00             ` arbuckj
1996-08-22  0:00           ` Ariane 5 - not an exception? ++           robin
1996-08-22  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00         ` Darren C Davenport
1996-08-14  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-19  0:00           ` Chris Papademetrious
1996-08-22  0:00           ` ++           robin
1996-08-22  0:00             ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-08-22  0:00             ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-24  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-26  0:00                   ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-27  0:00                     ` John McCabe
1996-08-28  0:00                       ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-28  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-29  0:00                           ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-30  0:00                         ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00             ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-24  0:00               ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-25  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-27  0:00                 ` Tom Speer
1996-08-26  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-20  0:00         ` Richard Riehle
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Steve O'Neill
1996-07-31  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-08-02  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-03  0:00         ` Thomas Kendelbacher
1996-08-01  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-05  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Mark van Walraven
1996-08-02  0:00       ` Pascal Martin @lone
1996-08-03  0:00         ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-08-05  0:00           ` system
1996-08-06  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Darius Blasband
1996-08-10  0:00             ` dwnoon
1996-08-12  0:00               ` Thomas Kendelbacher
1996-08-13  0:00                 ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00             ` Roy Gardiner
1996-08-13  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00               ` Lance Kibblewhite
1996-08-15  0:00             ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-06  0:00         ` Francis Lipski
1996-08-07  0:00           ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-06  0:00         ` Frank Manning
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Pat Rogers
1996-08-09  0:00           ` JP Thornley
1996-08-13  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-02  0:00     ` Craig P. Beyers
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-02  0:00   ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-27  0:00 ` Bill Angel
1996-07-30  0:00 ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-07-30  0:00   ` David Weller
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-08-08  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-09  0:00 ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-15  0:00 ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-15  0:00 ` John McCabe
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