* The letter Sharp S and the English language @ 2013-03-23 21:22 Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 15:23 ` Adam Beneschan 2013-03-25 16:15 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-23 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw) In case you remember a heated discussions of what ß is, whether it is an S-Z ligature or an S-S, and how to (not) downcase "ACCESS", more evidence comes from Ireland of 1759, in the signature of Arthur Guinneß, http://home.arcor.de/bauhaus/Ada/GUINNESS.jpg The original is seen here: http://www.guinness.com/en-row/img/story/1759/1759-t2.jpg Cheers! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-23 21:22 The letter Sharp S and the English language Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 15:23 ` Adam Beneschan 2013-03-25 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 21:55 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 16:15 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Adam Beneschan @ 2013-03-25 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:22:26 PM UTC-7, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > In case you remember a heated discussions of what ß is, > whether it is an S-Z ligature or an S-S, and how to (not) > downcase "ACCESS", more evidence comes from Ireland of 1759, > in the signature of Arthur Guinneß, > > http://home.arcor.de/bauhaus/Ada/GUINNESS.jpg That pretty clearly looks like two separate letters to me, although the two s's are in different styles. But it isn't a ligature. I'm not sure what your point is since I don't remember the original thread very well. -- Adam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 15:23 ` Adam Beneschan @ 2013-03-25 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 23:08 ` Randy Brukardt 2013-03-31 19:47 ` Paul Sture 2013-03-25 21:55 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25.03.13 16:23, Adam Beneschan wrote: > On Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:22:26 PM UTC-7, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >> In case you remember a heated discussions of what � is, >> whether it is an S-Z ligature or an S-S, and how to (not) >> downcase "ACCESS", more evidence comes from Ireland of 1759, >> in the signature of Arthur Guinne�, >> >> http://home.arcor.de/bauhaus/Ada/GUINNESS.jpg > > That pretty clearly looks like two separate letters to me, although the two s's are in different styles. But it isn't a ligature. I'm not sure what your point is since I don't remember the original thread very well. I'm investigating how Unicode enabled Ada can help me "export" street names to Switzerland. Thus, To_Upper ("Xyz-Stra�e"); -- String or Wide_String What interests me is whether or not this might or might not work in the future, i.e. with Ada 2012, in the light of recent developments of ISO/IEC 10646: First, you'd typically not be writing '�' in Switzerland and instead replace every occurrence with "ss". That's for both lower case and upper case. (And also when using small caps). So, To_Upper's definition won't help. But! Since Ada 2005 there are two new twists. In 2008, ISO/IEC 10646 has published an official upper case character for '�', U+1E9E. And in 2010, official spelling (read: government; "amtlich") requires U+1E9E in geographical names. These include street names. http://141.74.33.52/stagn/Portals/0/101125_TopR5.pdf Currently, GNAT's implementation of Ada.Wide_Characters.Handling.To_Upper gives Wide_Character'Val (223) for To_Upper ('�'), AFAICS. Unicode's CaseFolding.txt, if applicable, has two lines pertaining to the matter, 1E9E; F; 0073 0073; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S 1E9E; S; 00DF; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S So I'm wondering if Simple Case Mapping might mean that To_Upper (Wide_Character'('�')) should return Wide_Character'Val (16#1E9E#) in Ada 2012. ('�' will thus continue to cause problems originating in web based form entry fields and elsewhere, I'm almost sure. Just one out of many experiences: a major fruit company's customer invoices have consistently shown what looks like junk HTML right after "Stra" in my address for years.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 23:08 ` Randy Brukardt 2013-03-31 19:47 ` Paul Sture 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2013-03-25 23:08 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1427 bytes --] "Georg Bauhaus" <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> wrote in message news:5150a9f2$0$6567$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net... ... > Unicode's CaseFolding.txt, if applicable, has two lines pertaining > to the matter, > > 1E9E; F; 0073 0073; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S > 1E9E; S; 00DF; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S > > So I'm wondering if Simple Case Mapping might mean that > > To_Upper (Wide_Character'('ß')) > > should return Wide_Character'Val (16#1E9E#) in Ada 2012. No. You are looking at the wrong Unicode table (case folding is used for case-insensitive comparisons, you want case mapping -- these get different results. Besides, case folding is a mapping to *lower* case.) If you were looking at the right table, the 'S' line would be the important one, and in this case, the mapping is to "00DF", which definitely is not "1E9E". ;-) It's possible that the upper case mapping does use that character, but case mapping is implementation-defined in the respect that we don't require the use of any particular character set standard so long as it is at least as new as 10646:2003. So if a compiler used the 2003 definition, then it would be impossible to have the result you want. Moral: if you care about anything that's changed in character set mappings since 10646:2003, then you have to write your own conversions in order to be sure that they happen. Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 23:08 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2013-03-31 19:47 ` Paul Sture 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Paul Sture @ 2013-03-31 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2853 bytes --] In article <5150a9f2$0$6567$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net>, Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> wrote: > On 25.03.13 16:23, Adam Beneschan wrote: > > On Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:22:26 PM UTC-7, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > >> In case you remember a heated discussions of what � is, > >> whether it is an S-Z ligature or an S-S, and how to (not) > >> downcase "ACCESS", more evidence comes from Ireland of 1759, > >> in the signature of Arthur Guinne�, > >> > >> http://home.arcor.de/bauhaus/Ada/GUINNESS.jpg > > > > That pretty clearly looks like two separate letters to me, although the two > > s's are in different styles. But it isn't a ligature. I'm not sure what > > your point is since I don't remember the original thread very well. > > I'm investigating how Unicode enabled Ada can help me "export" > street names to Switzerland. Thus, > > To_Upper ("Xyz-Stra�e"); -- String or Wide_String > > What interests me is whether or not this might or might not work in the > future, i.e. with Ada 2012, in the light of recent developments of > ISO/IEC 10646: > > First, you'd typically not be writing '�' in Switzerland and instead > replace every occurrence with "ss". That's for both lower case and > upper case. (And also when using small caps). So, To_Upper's definition > won't help. Indeed, Swiss German keyboards do not have '�' (which was a real pain when doing a German language course on Windows which insisted I used it). > > But! Since Ada 2005 there are two new twists. In 2008, ISO/IEC 10646 > has published an official upper case character for '�', U+1E9E. And in > 2010, official spelling (read: government; "amtlich") requires U+1E9E > in geographical names. These include street names. > > http://141.74.33.52/stagn/Portals/0/101125_TopR5.pdf That's a useful document. The last paragraph on Page 10 might mean you need to clean up existing data: "NEW: Due to the new regulation of German spelling the letter � is after a short (stressed) vowel now replaced by ss. The letter � remains after a long vowel or a diphthong." <snip> > ('�' will thus continue to cause problems originating in web based form > entry fields and elsewhere, I'm almost sure. Yes I would expect problems with web based forms. On OS X I can get � via option-s, but on Windows that is alt-0223, not something I expect a typical end user to remember. > Just one out of many > experiences: a major fruit company's customer invoices have consistently > shown what looks like junk HTML right after "Stra" in my address for years.) I had an example the other day in a Captcha which decided from my IP address that I needed German when viewing a UK based website. I wish that if they are going to do that they would get it right... http://www.sture.ch/images/scrambled-umlauts.png -- Paul Sture ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 15:23 ` Adam Beneschan 2013-03-25 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 21:55 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25.03.13 16:23, Adam Beneschan wrote: > On Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:22:26 PM UTC-7, Georg Bauhaus wrote: >> In case you remember a heated discussions of what ß is, >> whether it is an S-Z ligature or an S-S, and how to (not) >> downcase "ACCESS", more evidence comes from Ireland of 1759, >> in the signature of Arthur Guinneß, >> >> http://home.arcor.de/bauhaus/Ada/GUINNESS.jpg > > That pretty clearly looks like two separate letters to me, although the two s's are in different styles. But it isn't a ligature. I'm not sure what your point is since I don't remember the original thread very well. I forgot to mention the issue with 'ß' and Ada. Ada-auth.org produces AI-05-0227 which mentions acceß and the 'Image of enumeration literal Diyarbakır. Seeing that reminds me that I should search at least two memories before posting (mine and the net's 8-°). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-23 21:22 The letter Sharp S and the English language Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 15:23 ` Adam Beneschan @ 2013-03-25 16:15 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 2013-03-25 19:42 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Eryndlia Mavourneen @ 2013-03-25 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw) A friend suggests... Perhaps a simple answer? He was drunk! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 16:15 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen @ 2013-03-25 19:42 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 20:12 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 2013-03-25 23:12 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 19:42 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25.03.13 17:15, Eryndlia Mavourneen wrote: > A friend suggests... > > Perhaps a simple answer? He was drunk! Half of that bottle had gone when I saw the "ſs" on it, so... your friend is right. Sorry! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 19:42 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2013-03-25 20:12 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 2013-03-25 22:09 ` Adam Beneschan 2013-03-25 23:12 ` Randy Brukardt 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Eryndlia Mavourneen @ 2013-03-25 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw) On Monday, March 25, 2013 2:42:01 PM UTC-5, Georg Bauhaus wrote: > On 25.03.13 17:15, Eryndlia Mavourneen wrote: > > > A friend suggests... > > > > > > Perhaps a simple answer? He was drunk! > > > > Half of that bottle had gone when I saw the "ſs" on it, so... > > your friend is right. Sorry! It has been many, many years since I looked at Old or Middle English; however, it would make sense that during the time of the Norman invasion, which created Middle English (French influence), there would be a mix of writing styles, just as there was a mix of spellings and pronunciations. As a couple of for instances, final "e" was pronounced as in Brook-e, and a combination of French (the court) and English (the commoners) was frequently used to help ensure clarity of intent as in "Cease and desist!" -- Eryndlia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 20:12 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen @ 2013-03-25 22:09 ` Adam Beneschan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Adam Beneschan @ 2013-03-25 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw) On Monday, March 25, 2013 1:12:22 PM UTC-7, Eryndlia Mavourneen wrote: > It has been many, many years since I looked at Old or Middle English; however, it would make sense that during the time of the Norman invasion, which created Middle English (French influence), there would be a mix of writing styles, just as there was a mix of spellings and pronunciations. As a couple of for instances, final "e" was pronounced as in Brook-e, and a combination of French (the court) and English (the commoners) was frequently used to help ensure clarity of intent as in "Cease and desist!" I think it's also the Normans' fault that we don't have wonderful letters like thorn and yogh and edh in English any more. Too bad. Wouldn't it be better if we could write something like wiþ Ada.Text_IO; procedure Display_Value (B : Boolean) is begin if B ðen Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line ("true"); else Ada.Text_IO.Put_Line ("false"); end if; end; Clearly our world would be improved if we could write that. Or maybe that's just the Guinneſs in me talking ... -- Adam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 19:42 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 20:12 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen @ 2013-03-25 23:12 ` Randy Brukardt 2013-03-26 13:13 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2013-03-25 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw) "Georg Bauhaus" <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de> wrote in message news:5150a88a$0$6556$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net... > On 25.03.13 17:15, Eryndlia Mavourneen wrote: >> A friend suggests... >> >> Perhaps a simple answer? He was drunk! > > Half of that bottle had gone when I saw the "?s" on it, so... > your friend is right. Sorry! Isn't this the issue of the two forms of 's' that John Barnes wrote about in the Ada 2005 Rationale?? http://www.adaic.org/resources/add_content/standards/05rat/html/Rat-7-5.html "The Greek situation used to apply in English where the long s was used in the middle of words (where it looked like an f but without a cross stroke) and the familiar short s only at the end. To modern eyes this makes poetic lines such as "Where the bee sucks, there suck I" somewhat dubious. (This is sung by Ariel in Act V Scene I of The Tempest by William Shakespeare.)" It would appear that the spelling of "Guiness" would also use one long and one short 's'. Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: The letter Sharp S and the English language 2013-03-25 23:12 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2013-03-26 13:13 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Eryndlia Mavourneen @ 2013-03-26 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw) > > Isn't this the issue of the two forms of 's' that John Barnes wrote about in > the Ada 2005 Rationale?? > > http://www.adaic.org/resources/add_content/standards/05rat/html/Rat-7-5.html > > Randy John Barnes says, In some systems, such as the ideographic system used by Chinese, Japanese and Korean, there is only one case, so things are easy. But in other systems, like the Latin, Greek and Cyrillic alphabets, upper and lower case characters have to be considered. But, of course, in languages using the Persian-Arabic script (such as Arabic, Farsi, and Urdu) we have to contend with 3 letter forms -- beginning-of-word, middle-of-word, and end-of-word. -- Eryndlia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-03-31 19:47 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2013-03-23 21:22 The letter Sharp S and the English language Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 15:23 ` Adam Beneschan 2013-03-25 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 23:08 ` Randy Brukardt 2013-03-31 19:47 ` Paul Sture 2013-03-25 21:55 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 16:15 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 2013-03-25 19:42 ` Georg Bauhaus 2013-03-25 20:12 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen 2013-03-25 22:09 ` Adam Beneschan 2013-03-25 23:12 ` Randy Brukardt 2013-03-26 13:13 ` Eryndlia Mavourneen
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