Re: No call for Ada

Re: No call for Ada

[Marc A. Criley]

"Florian Weimer" <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote in message
news:87zn9sjc5r.fsf@deneb.enyo.de...
> Ludovic Brenta <ludovic.brenta@insalien.org> writes:
>
> > Is this not a strength rather than a weakness?  Garbage collectors
> > encourage sloppy programming.
>
> So does Ada's type safety.

Pardon??

There are only a couple ways I can think of wherevone could conceivably
argue that type safety encouraged sloppy programming:

One way is if the programmer is just going to churn out code and then
compile it again and again and again ad nauseum while the compiler
identifies all the type conflicts after the fact. And the fixing of which
basically means going back and declaring types and variables intelligently,
which would've been much less exasperating to do at the start.

Or, due to the presence of Ada's type safety, the programmer wants to
_avoid_ it, and so declares all numeric variables to be of the standard
types integer and float.

It's in dynamically typed languages where I've seen sloppy programming as
regards variable typing.

Marc A. Criley

Re: No call for Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

Marc A. Criley <mcNOSPAM@mckae.com> wrote:
: 
: "Florian Weimer" <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote in message
: news:87zn9sjc5r.fsf@deneb.enyo.de...
:> Ludovic Brenta <ludovic.brenta@insalien.org> writes:
:>
:> > Is this not a strength rather than a weakness?  Garbage collectors
:> > encourage sloppy programming.
:>
:> So does Ada's type safety.
: 
: Pardon??

Maybe along these lines:
If everything is an int you have do spend lots of time making sure
you use the correct ranges in all sorts of places, and write code
which does this correctly.
Likewise you don't just rely on type systems to find the correct
subprogram, but think hard about it, use different names explicitly?....

Re: No call for Ada

[Ludovic Brenta]

"Marc A. Criley" writes:
> "Florian Weimer" wrote in message
> > Ludovic Brenta writes:
> >
> > > Is this not a strength rather than a weakness?  Garbage collectors
> > > encourage sloppy programming.
> >
> > So does Ada's type safety.
> 
> Pardon??
> 
> There are only a couple ways I can think of wherevone could conceivably
> argue that type safety encouraged sloppy programming:
> 
> One way is if the programmer is just going to churn out code and then
> compile it again and again and again ad nauseum while the compiler
> identifies all the type conflicts after the fact. And the fixing of which
> basically means going back and declaring types and variables intelligently,
> which would've been much less exasperating to do at the start.

Yes, but you still end up with a properly written, maintainable, Ada
program :) So, the extra effort was really the programmer's fault, and
the programmer was wise enough to recognise it as such and let the
compiler teach him.  A good apprentice of a Zen Master.  Next time,
this apprentice will avoid the unnecessary effort and produce a
(relatively) good program on the first attempt.

> Or, due to the presence of Ada's type safety, the programmer wants to
> _avoid_ it, and so declares all numeric variables to be of the standard
> types integer and float.

And then you end up with a C program that happens to be in Ada; the
programmer tries to rebel against the Master and produces bugs.

> It's in dynamically typed languages where I've seen sloppy programming as
> regards variable typing.

Yes.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: No call for Ada

[chris]

Marc A. Criley wrote:
> "Florian Weimer" <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote in message
>
>>So does Ada's type safety.
>  
> Pardon??

It could be an attempt at wit?

> It's in dynamically typed languages where I've seen sloppy programming as
> regards variable typing.

That's because of sloppy programmers.  If they ain't smart enough to 
program in a language they shouldn't do it.

Re: No call for Ada

[Marin David Condic]

Measurements I've made of error rates tend to indicate that when 
everything is an int and the programmer has to make his own range checks 
and scalings and so forth, that error rates are *significantly* higher. 
People get lazy or make mistakes. Compilers apply predefined rules over 
and over and over and..... One is more likely than the other to get it 
wrong. Guess which? :-)

Or are we talking about that "Any *Competent* Programmer..." again? :-)

MDC

Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> 
> Maybe along these lines:
> If everything is an int you have do spend lots of time making sure
> you use the correct ranges in all sorts of places, and write code
> which does this correctly.
> Likewise you don't just rely on type systems to find the correct
> subprogram, but think hard about it, use different names explicitly?....


-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Face it ladies, its not the dress that makes you look fat.
     Its the FAT that makes you look fat."

         --  Al Bundy

======================================================================

Re: No call for Ada

[Marc A. Criley]

"chris" <spamoff.danx@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:FWkcc.21$zE6.0@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net...
> Marc A. Criley wrote:
> > "Florian Weimer" <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote in message
> >
> >>So does Ada's type safety.
> >
> > Pardon??
>
> It could be an attempt at wit?
>
> > It's in dynamically typed languages where I've seen sloppy programming
as
> > regards variable typing.
>
> That's because of sloppy programmers.  If they ain't smart enough to
> program in a language they shouldn't do it.

<troll>
Are you therefore calling for the certification and licensing of
programmers?
</troll>

 :-)  :-)

No call for Ada

[Andrew Carroll]

Boy, my original post, "No call for Ada", has blown up and spread out like a
wildfire.
I think it was originally "No call for Ada?".

I'm no expert with Ada but I've been trying things out.  I wrote several
small programs in Ada.  Nothing to really see the benefit of the "package"
and maintenance features of Ada yet.  One thing I have noticed, after having
worked with Ada a little bit and going to other "systems" is that Ada IS
spread out.  You go get GTK for this, and RAPID for that, and GNAT, and
MGNAT, and AdaGIDE, and on and on.  I was so tired of downloading stuff and
"making" it that I just went to Visual Basic, even though I had only a
tutorial on VB from a friend and some old software.

It isn't that "Ada" was bad, or unproductive, it was all the work to get the
tools.  Using VB has to be the easiest development I have done.  All I
wanted was to make a little tool to organize my CRC Cards so I could look at
them and edit them without having to scroll through a Word doc or buy some
expensive UML product.  It took me all of 10 hours.  Almost the same amount
of time I spent downloading and "making" all the Ada tools.

I haven't given up on Ada and I still seek to us Ada because it fits the way
I want to work.  It's just amazing to me that there is no one entity to
organize all these parts.  Microsoft is the entity for Microsoft, Sun is for
Java, Borland is one for C++.  With Ada it is all scattered about and
there's no apparent group effort.  Whatever it is, it's not a centralized
effort.  At least I don't see a centralized effort.

Would anyone be interested in that?

Good software is definitely NOT doomed.  In fact, quite the contrary.
Here's a read for you:
http://www.ad-mkt-review.com/public_html/air/ai200401.html


Andrew Carroll
Carroll-Tech
andrew@carroll-tech.net

Re: No call for Ada

[Ed Falis]

On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 17:42:07 -0600, Andrew Carroll 
<andrew@carroll-tech.net> wrote:

>
> Would anyone be interested in that?

While I realize that it is not necessarily portable to windows, it looks 
like what Ludovic is doing packaging Ada tools on Debian is a step in the 
right direction.  http://libre.act-europe.fr/ is also not at all bad as a 
collocation of necessary and interesting parts.

- Ed

Re: No call for Ada

[Marius Amado Alves]

> <troll>
> Are you therefore calling for the certification and licensing of
> programmers?
> </troll>

<aside>
As of a couple of years informatics engineers can belong to the "ordem"
(gild?) of engineers in Portugal. For certain non-informatics activities
(e.g. civil construction), membership in this structure is required (e.g.
for civil and electrotechnic engineers). For informatics, AFAIN, there is no
regulation yet. I'd like to know about other countries.
</aside>

Re: No call for Ada

[Martin Krischik]

Andrew Carroll wrote:

> I haven't given up on Ada and I still seek to us Ada because it fits the
> way
> I want to work.  It's just amazing to me that there is no one entity to
> organize all these parts.  Microsoft is the entity for Microsoft, Sun is
> for
> Java, Borland is one for C++.  With Ada it is all scattered about and
> there's no apparent group effort.  Whatever it is, it's not a centralized
> effort.  At least I don't see a centralized effort.

There had been some attempts:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/ascl/

However even with 4 programers the project stalled.
 
> Would anyone be interested in that?

Well I would give up AdaCL and merge it into a unified library.

With Regards

Martin

PS: One can "take over" stalled SourceForge Projects.

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
http://www.ada.krischik.com

Re: No call for Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

Andrew Carroll <andrew@carroll-tech.net> wrote:
: 
: 
:   It's just amazing to me that there is no one entity to
: organize all these parts.  Microsoft is the entity for Microsoft, Sun is for
: Java, Borland is one for C++.

It is not that different the moment you want to do something
that doesn't happen to be in the vendors' packages. And usually
the number of suppliers can be > 1?

No call for Ada

[Andrew Carroll]

> ------------------------------
> From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: No call for Ada (was Re: Announcing new
> [snip]
> XML/Ada has complete Unicode support. I am using it for AdaCL.CGI. The
> problem is, as somebody allready pointed out, that you have to collect
half
> a dozend Libs before Ada becomes usefull. What needed is a Unified Ada
> Library which does not need to provide anything new - only put the
> different parts together for a "one click download".
>
> With Regards
>
> Martin

Yes, "one CLICK download".  I don't know that it would be one QUICK
download because I've downloaded about 100MB so far.  Which is about
a 3 day download for me.

Point is, most everyone here has a binding or library or "something" they
want to get out.  An investment so to speak in Ada.  What would happen
if RAPID and AdaGIDE were merged into one?  I would choose GLADE
but I don't think it can spit out MSIL.

How would JGNAT fit in?  Well, can't say for sure yet but I'm sure it could
fit in there somewhere.  Maybe that's the way to go for "Web Services"?
Doesn't Java have SOAP?
(A little soap in your java?  ewe, yuck.  Talk about a platform that
"runs"!)

Right now I have GTK, TCL/TK, RAPID, GLADE, AdaGIDE, MGNAT,
JGNAT, msil2ada, GNAT and JGRASP installed on my computer.  Don't
ask me why.  I am just evaluating all this stuff.  Well, except for GNAT.  I
had A# but it seems to have disappeared...hmmmmm.  Ohh, don't forget
GVD.

Now if we could combine RAPID, GLADE, AdaGIDE (or JGRASP),
MGNAT, GNAT, JGNAT, GVD, AUnit and msil2ada into one tool then
you would pretty much have it all covered as far as "human interaction"
and building/debugging.  You could combine a bunch of bindings like
AWS, GTK, TCL/TK, X11Ada, CORBA, POSIX, AdaCL and
could pull-in/reuse code from the Ada Software Repositories then
you would have a MONSTER.  Whoa ho ho!!!

Who would use it?  Other than me, I don't have a clue.  Who could
understand it?  Well, hopefully everyone who used it.

Monumental task?
Marketable?

What of conversion modules to help companies get into this tool?
Anyone want to write C#2A#?  How about VB.Net2Ada.Net?
Isn't that a market?

Then, the kicker, bust out a blazing fast version of AdaOS.
How many people are on this mailing list?  How many developers?
And that's not enough?

Comments?  Am I insane?


Andrew Carroll
Carroll-Tech
720-273-6814
andrew@carroll-tech.net

Re: No call for Ada

[Berend de Boer]

>>>>> "Marin" == Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com> writes:

    Marin> Then there is the issue of a GUI. Java comes with a GUI as
    Marin> an integral part. Ada does not. There are a few
    Marin> GUI-building kits for Ada, but not a standard one. So Java
    Marin> gets to come to the table saying "Here's your language and
    Marin> here's your GUI and all the Java developers know how to use
    Marin> both and they both work together in a variety of places..."

Yep, there's just on GUI for Java, everyone likes it and it has been a
phenomenal success on the desktop.

-- 
Regards,

Berend. (-:

Re: No call for Ada

[Pascal Obry]

"Andrew Carroll" <andrew@carroll-tech.net> writes:
> and building/debugging.  You could combine a bunch of bindings like
> AWS, GTK, TCL/TK, X11Ada, CORBA, POSIX, AdaCL and

No, AWS is not a binding. It is a full framework to develop Web
applications. It binds to nothing! It brings a very different way to build
Web applications and all this in Ada.

Just wanted to correct this :)

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|              http://www.obry.org
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"
--|
--| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595

Re: No call for Ada

[Marius Amado Alves]

> Yes, "one CLICK download".  I don't know that it would be one QUICK
> download because I've downloaded about 100MB so far.  Which is about
> a 3 day download for me.

A CD can be delivered in *one* day to virtually anyone. Never underestimate
the bandwith of the postal service :-)

Re: No call for Ada

[Martin Krischik]

Andrew Carroll wrote:

>> ------------------------------
>> From: Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net>
>> Subject: Re: No call for Ada (was Re: Announcing new
>> [snip]
>> XML/Ada has complete Unicode support. I am using it for AdaCL.CGI. The
>> problem is, as somebody allready pointed out, that you have to collect
> half
>> a dozend Libs before Ada becomes usefull. What needed is a Unified Ada
>> Library which does not need to provide anything new - only put the
>> different parts together for a "one click download".
>>
>> With Regards
>>
>> Martin

> Now if we could combine RAPID, GLADE, AdaGIDE (or JGRASP),
> MGNAT, GNAT, JGNAT, GVD, AUnit and msil2ada into one tool then
> you would pretty much have it all covered as far as "human interaction"
> and building/debugging.  You could combine a bunch of bindings like
> AWS, GTK, TCL/TK, X11Ada, CORBA, POSIX, AdaCL and
> could pull-in/reuse code from the Ada Software Repositories then
> you would have a MONSTER.  Whoa ho ho!!!
> 
> Who would use it?  Other than me, I don't have a clue.  Who could
> understand it?  Well, hopefully everyone who used it.
 
> Monumental task?
> Marketable?

Yes. It has been done for other languages - critics may look at
"http://www.perl.org/" or "http://www.python.org/". 

Yes they have more programmers now - but they both started as a "one man
show".

> Then, the kicker, bust out a blazing fast version of AdaOS.
> How many people are on this mailing list?  How many developers?
> And that's not enough?

I am shure there are enogh here. However, how many are prepared to give up
there privat project and merge it into a unified ada lib.

Mind you, they don't have to. When I did gnat-asis I dicovered the power of
"cvs import". Combining several projects into one with "cvs import" doen't
take that much work.

With Regards

Martin.

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
http://www.ada.krischik.com

No call for Ada

[Andrew Carroll]

> ------------------------------
> From: Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr>
> Subject: Re: No call for Ada
[snip]
> No, AWS is not a binding. It is a full framework to develop Web
> applications. It binds to nothing! It brings a very different way to build
> Web applications and all this in Ada.
>
> Just wanted to correct this :)
>
> Pascal.

I apologize Pascal, AWS is NOT a binding.  Sorry.
All I was trying to convey is that it, and other work, could be used to
provide functionality and re-use to the program I was talking about.

Andrew Carroll
Carroll-Tech
720-273-6814
andrew@carroll-tech.net

Re: No call for Ada

[Ludovic Brenta]

Martin Krischik said:
> PS: One can "take over" stalled SourceForge Projects.

How?  I looked for a "take over" command, but couldn't find one.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

RE: No call for Ada

[Lionel.DRAGHI]

| -----Message d'origine-----
| De: Ed Falis [mailto:falis@verizon.net]
...
| >
| > Would anyone be interested in that?
| 
| While I realize that it is not necessarily portable to 
| windows, it looks 
| like what Ludovic is doing packaging Ada tools on Debian is a 
| step in the 
| right direction.  http://libre.act-europe.fr/ is also not at 
| all bad as a 
| collocation of necessary and interesting parts.

Yes, Ludovic is doing a great job. Using Ada on Debian is now easier than
ever.

On the Windows side, there is Stephane Riviere's promising AIDE : 
Ada on a CD, with compiler/IDE/tools/library.
It's ready to run, and 100% free software.

Those environment are easy to install and use, giving more or less the same
ease *feeling* than on VB. 
Actually, it's just because the choice between components was done by the
"packager", here Ludovic or Stephane.

For those for wich the default choice is not the right one, some sort of
central Ada catalogue on the web is still missing.
 

-- 
Lionel Draghi

Re: No call for Ada

[Samuel Tardieu]

>>>>> "Jean-Pierre" == Jean-Pierre Rosen <rosen@adalog.fr> writes:

Jean-Pierre> When one of my students asks "May I ask a stupid
Jean-Pierre> question?", I always reply: "There are no stupid
Jean-Pierre> questions. Only stupid answers".

And at the same time, you make your point :)

Re: No call for Ada

[Martin Krischik]

Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> Martin Krischik said:
>> PS: One can "take over" stalled SourceForge Projects.
> 
> How?  I looked for a "take over" command, but couldn't find one.

I have never done it myself however my understanding is that you apply for a
new project of the same name and tell the sourceforge staff in the freeform
description that this is indeed a takover.

With Regards

Martin

-- 
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
http://www.ada.krischik.com

Re: No call for Ada

[Marius Amado Alves]

Here's a idea to ease the adoption of Ada, and thus expand it, and thus
augment the percentage of reliable software in the world, and throw some
business our way along with it.

The main result is a CD+book that constitutes the big package everyone seems
to be expecting, containing every resource/library required to learn Ada and
build a vast class of applications, and easy to install and use.

*The economical feasability of this project assumes that such a package does
not exist already. Is GNAT Pro it? Is ACE? Another? If yes then stop reading
here.*

The realisation of this project requires money investment and/or resources,
because I see no other way to do it than setting up a team of Ada library
mantainers, application developers, authors, and perhaps trainers, holding
at least one initial physical meeting in a laboratory somewhere. 10 or 20
people.

This requires coordination, leading to the selection of participants and
identification of leaders. CEO+CTO is a likely structure. The very initial
brainstorming could be done right here on CLA, but to advance it should
rapidly shift to a dedicated structure. A virtual organization.

The first gathering would take a week or two and result in:
- the first prototype of the product
- a planned structure to produce and distribute copies of it
- coordination and maintainance structures strengthened.

The launch would of coincide with Ada 2005 :-)

This project clearly need managerial and commercial skills as well as
technical, and as I said, money investment (e.g. for the meetings), and thus
a business plan, and thus a market research. We have some market indicators
from the people on this list, but perhaps not enough. Basically we need to
have a good idea of how many entities would buy a copy, and for how much.
The expenditures we know. Once we have the market figures, the business plan
is relatively easy.

Re: No call for Ada

[Marin David Condic]

Well, I'm sure I could get my company to cough up a conference room for 
some kind of after-hours team sessions to facilitate some discussion. I 
don't know how much that would help. But I like the idea of doing 
something that puts together a book/CD for publication. Potentially, 
this is something a publishing firm could partially finance - but they 
wouldn't likely do that without seeing some market that would justify 
the cost. It may end up a follow-on deal.

What I'd imagine doing would be to pull together an integrated kit that 
supported a GUI, Database and Class Library. That might not be an 
unachievable goal, but, as you observe, it would take some money. 
Volunteer software only gets so far and the public seems to like the 
"Professionalism" that comes with commercially supported products.

Its a noble goal and I'd be willing to discuss it - and even do some 
speculative work on it if we agree on where it should go. However, I'd 
have to agree that it will need money eventually, so I don't see any way 
of doing this as an all-volunteer, evenings-and-weekends project.

MDC


Marius Amado Alves wrote:
> Here's a idea to ease the adoption of Ada, and thus expand it, and thus
> augment the percentage of reliable software in the world, and throw some
> business our way along with it.
> 
> The main result is a CD+book that constitutes the big package everyone seems
> to be expecting, containing every resource/library required to learn Ada and
> build a vast class of applications, and easy to install and use.
> 
> *The economical feasability of this project assumes that such a package does
> not exist already. Is GNAT Pro it? Is ACE? Another? If yes then stop reading
> here.*
> 
> The realisation of this project requires money investment and/or resources,
> because I see no other way to do it than setting up a team of Ada library
> mantainers, application developers, authors, and perhaps trainers, holding
> at least one initial physical meeting in a laboratory somewhere. 10 or 20
> people.
> 
> This requires coordination, leading to the selection of participants and
> identification of leaders. CEO+CTO is a likely structure. The very initial
> brainstorming could be done right here on CLA, but to advance it should
> rapidly shift to a dedicated structure. A virtual organization.
> 
> The first gathering would take a week or two and result in:
> - the first prototype of the product
> - a planned structure to produce and distribute copies of it
> - coordination and maintainance structures strengthened.
> 
> The launch would of coincide with Ada 2005 :-)
> 
> This project clearly need managerial and commercial skills as well as
> technical, and as I said, money investment (e.g. for the meetings), and thus
> a business plan, and thus a market research. We have some market indicators
> from the people on this list, but perhaps not enough. Basically we need to
> have a good idea of how many entities would buy a copy, and for how much.
> The expenditures we know. Once we have the market figures, the business plan
> is relatively easy.
> 
> 


-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Face it ladies, its not the dress that makes you look fat.
     Its the FAT that makes you look fat."

         --  Al Bundy

======================================================================

Re: No call for Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

Marius Amado Alves wrote:

> Here's a idea to ease the adoption of Ada, and thus expand it, and thus
> augment the percentage of reliable software in the world, and throw some
> business our way along with it.
> 
> The main result is a CD+book that constitutes the big package everyone
> seems to be expecting, containing every resource/library required to learn
> Ada and build a vast class of applications, and easy to install and use.
> 
> *The economical feasability of this project assumes that such a package
> does not exist already. Is GNAT Pro it? Is ACE? Another? If yes then stop
> reading here.*
> 
> The realisation of this project requires money investment and/or
> resources, because I see no other way to do it than setting up a team of
> Ada library mantainers, application developers, authors, and perhaps
> trainers, holding at least one initial physical meeting in a laboratory
> somewhere. 10 or 20 people.
> 
> This requires coordination, leading to the selection of participants and
> identification of leaders. CEO+CTO is a likely structure. The very initial
> brainstorming could be done right here on CLA, but to advance it should
> rapidly shift to a dedicated structure. A virtual organization.
> 
> The first gathering would take a week or two and result in:
> - the first prototype of the product
> - a planned structure to produce and distribute copies of it
> - coordination and maintainance structures strengthened.
> 
> The launch would of coincide with Ada 2005 :-)
> 
> This project clearly need managerial and commercial skills as well as
> technical, and as I said, money investment (e.g. for the meetings), and
> thus a business plan, and thus a market research. We have some market
> indicators from the people on this list, but perhaps not enough. Basically
> we need to have a good idea of how many entities would buy a copy, and for
> how much. The expenditures we know. Once we have the market figures, the
> business plan is relatively easy.

Where you will get the money? To make it useful, the body resposible for
this should as authoritative as ARG. These people are expensive to get.

In my view, nothing will change until governments (US, I do not believe in
EU) understand that the current state of software development is a real
threat, in a long term perspective, maybe, greater than terrorism.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: No call for Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com> wrote:

: What I'd imagine doing would be to pull together an integrated kit that 
: supported a GUI, Database and Class Library. That might not be an 
: unachievable goal, but, as you observe, it would take some money. 

Isn't this what you can get from RR software?

No call for Ada

[Andrew Carroll]

> ------------------------------
> From: Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com>
> Subject: Re: No call for Ada
>
> Well, I'm sure I could get my company to cough up a conference room for
> some kind of after-hours team sessions to facilitate some discussion. I
> don't know how much that would help.
[snip]
> but they wouldn't likely do that without seeing some market that would
justify
> the cost. It may end up a follow-on deal.

I don't know where you sent your email from (where your office is) but if it
isn't in Colorado then I'm guessing I would be missing the meetings.  Not
that I was invited.

> What I'd imagine doing would be to pull together an integrated kit that
> supported a GUI, Database and Class Library. That might not be an
> unachievable goal, but, as you observe, it would take some money.
> Volunteer software only gets so far and the public seems to like the
> "Professionalism" that comes with commercially supported products.

Considering all the pieces are already out there it is a highly achievable
goal.  All that really needs to be done is to have an "install" or "setup"
program to install the existing components.  I personally don't think
it would be such a bad idea to go through the existing components
and organize them/integrate them into one directory tree instead of
trying to work with the existing component directory layouts from
each individual component.

Who says we can't sell the final product?  As long as the source code
is freely available.  Look at RedHat Linux or FreeBSD.  They get from
$75 to ~$200 per box set.  Assuming of course that the license is the same.
Who's going to fund it initially?  Well I will, if $1.92 will cut it.


> Marius Amado Alves wrote:
> > Here's a idea to ease the adoption of Ada, and thus expand it, and thus
> > augment the percentage of reliable software in the world, and throw some
> > business our way along with it.
> >
> > The main result is a CD+book that constitutes the big package everyone
seems
> > to be expecting, containing every resource/library required to learn Ada
and
> > build a vast class of applications, and easy to install and use.

This is a great idea as well!!  I was aiming more for a box of software but
hey, if
it comes with a book instead then great.

As far as raising money, maybe we could sell some t-shirts to the
C/C++ community?  Better yet, we could develop some simple
little software programs for C/C++ developers and sell those.  OF
COURSE their writen in Ada, what else would bring some irony
to the situation?

------------------------------
From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>
Subject: Re: No call for Ada
[snip]
> In my view, nothing will change until governments (US, I do not believe in
> EU) understand that the current state of software development is a real
> threat, in a long term perspective, maybe, greater than terrorism.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Dmitry A. Kazakov
> www.dmitry-kazakov.de

I'm not sure if your saying that governments need to verify all software
that goes to market, sort of like the FDA approves medications or
if your saying that the US companies are predominantly responsible
for the majority of bad software and it's the US governments fault.
Either way I agree that ALL software from EVERY country could
be writen better.  I disagree that it should be "approved" by some
government entity.  Imagine how much a copy of Windows would
cost then!!

Not only that but who approves the methods of approval?  What
your saying is like saying that the industry needs an unpenetrable
network firewall.  To your surprise, there is one!  Disconnect your
network from the Internet and then, your network is unpenetrable
from the Internet.  See how easy that was?


Andrew Carroll
Carroll-Tech
720-273-6814
andrew@carroll-tech.net

Re: No call for Ada

[Marin David Condic]

Andrew Carroll wrote:
> 
> I don't know where you sent your email from (where your office is) but if it
> isn't in Colorado then I'm guessing I would be missing the meetings.  Not
> that I was invited.
> 
Its at least a potential resource if face-to-face sessions were 
necessary from time to time. I doubt I could find a dozen or so Ada 
advocates in Palm Beach County, FL interested in working a project like 
this - but I bet come February, any given team would *love* to come here 
for a few sessions. :-)

> 
> Considering all the pieces are already out there it is a highly achievable
> goal.  All that really needs to be done is to have an "install" or "setup"
> program to install the existing components.  I personally don't think
> it would be such a bad idea to go through the existing components
> and organize them/integrate them into one directory tree instead of
> trying to work with the existing component directory layouts from
> each individual component.
> 

Its more than that. You can't just pile stuff onto a disk with an 
install shield and expect it to somehow be "good" - much less exciting 
enough to draw interest from the non-Ada crowd. It would need a) really 
nice integration of all the tools and b) a bunch of "leverage" you don't 
get right now.



> Who says we can't sell the final product?  As long as the source code
> is freely available.  Look at RedHat Linux or FreeBSD.  They get from
> $75 to ~$200 per box set.  Assuming of course that the license is the same.
> Who's going to fund it initially?  Well I will, if $1.92 will cut it.
> 
Sure. But one way or another, if you don't get some kind of revenue from 
somewhere, nobody has this as a "job" - just a hobby. Hobby stuff takes 
forever to emerge and won't have the kind of commercial support & 
quality one expects from similar products.


MDC

-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Face it ladies, its not the dress that makes you look fat.
     Its the FAT that makes you look fat."

         --  Al Bundy

======================================================================

Re: No call for Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

Andrew Carroll wrote:

> From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>
> Subject: Re: No call for Ada
> [snip]
>> In my view, nothing will change until governments (US, I do not believe
>> in EU) understand that the current state of software development is a
>> real threat, in a long term perspective, maybe, greater than terrorism.
>>
> I'm not sure if your saying that governments need to verify all software
> that goes to market, sort of like the FDA approves medications

There are different ways. Don't you agree that the software which fault may
lead to loss of human life shall be approved? For the rest it would be
enough to require some level of liability for commercial software depending
on its price and application area.

> or
> if your saying that the US companies are predominantly responsible
> for the majority of bad software and it's the US governments fault.

The government should have cared to keep OS diversity. It should have
invested in key software development areas such as languages, OS,
networking, graphics. Ada exists only because it was sponsored.

> Either way I agree that ALL software from EVERY country could
> be writen better.  I disagree that it should be "approved" by some
> government entity.  Imagine how much a copy of Windows would
> cost then!!

Imagine that a new Windows version will be bought once per decade? But see
above, there is no need to approve Windows used at home.

> Not only that but who approves the methods of approval?

It is much lesser problem. It is not rocket science to see what Windows is. 

> What
> your saying is like saying that the industry needs an unpenetrable
> network firewall.  To your surprise, there is one!  Disconnect your
> network from the Internet and then, your network is unpenetrable
> from the Internet.  See how easy that was?

Consider that recent attempts to introduce an internet-based voting system.
Sooner or later it will come.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: No call for Ada

[chris]

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> Andrew Carroll wrote:
>>
>>I'm not sure if your saying that governments need to verify all software
>>that goes to market, sort of like the FDA approves medications
> 
> There are different ways. Don't you agree that the software which fault may
> lead to loss of human life shall be approved? For the rest it would be
> enough to require some level of liability for commercial software depending
> on its price and application area.

I sort of agree, however we all know any significant software will 
contain bugs no matter what you do so liability may not be the best way 
with respect to commercial software, unless it's in terms of negligance, 
for the foreseeable future.  Perhaps the licensing of software engineers 
is the way to go on this.  i.e. if the software engineer is licensed 
they meet certain standards they are fit to work on projects.  The 
problem is deciding who sets the criteria and who enforces it.

I wouldn't mind being licensed, infact it's probably one of the few ways 
you could make software without making it too risky for companies to 
develop it.  Lots of people won't like it though, especially programmers 
because everybody knows programming is a bit of witchcraft and art, that 
it's their god given right to code and it all just 'works'. ;)

>>What
>>your saying is like saying that the industry needs an unpenetrable
>>network firewall.  To your surprise, there is one!  Disconnect your
>>network from the Internet and then, your network is unpenetrable
>>from the Internet.  See how easy that was?
> 
> 
> Consider that recent attempts to introduce an internet-based voting system.
> Sooner or later it will come.

Like biometric ID cards in the UK.  The problem is the old line about 
theory and pratice.

Re: No call for Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

chris wrote:

> Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>> Andrew Carroll wrote:
>>>
>>>I'm not sure if your saying that governments need to verify all software
>>>that goes to market, sort of like the FDA approves medications
>> 
>> There are different ways. Don't you agree that the software which fault
>> may lead to loss of human life shall be approved? For the rest it would
>> be enough to require some level of liability for commercial software
>> depending on its price and application area.
> 
> I sort of agree, however we all know any significant software will
> contain bugs no matter what you do so liability may not be the best way
> with respect to commercial software, unless it's in terms of negligance,
> for the foreseeable future.

There are different kinds of bugs. When I buy shoes I do not expect to use
them for the rest of my life. One could specify which kinds of software
defects are admissible and which are not.

> Perhaps the licensing of software engineers
> is the way to go on this.  i.e. if the software engineer is licensed
> they meet certain standards they are fit to work on projects.

I think that more important would be to license software firms. ISO-2000 is
a rubbish, but the idea was right.

> The problem is deciding who sets the criteria and who enforces it.

Law-makers prepare a legal basis, the government creates a body, judges send
Billy to jail. (:-))

> I wouldn't mind being licensed, infact it's probably one of the few ways
> you could make software without making it too risky for companies to
> develop it.

You mean to push the responsibility down to software engineers. No I think
that companies have to be liable for what they sell. Whether they choose to
employ licensed engineers to minimise risk, it is their business. Though in
some application areas it might be required by law.

> Lots of people won't like it though, especially programmers
> because everybody knows programming is a bit of witchcraft and art, that
> it's their god given right to code and it all just 'works'. ;)

We have an excellent field for those who want to apply their skills without
being responsible for the results. It's the free software movement.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: No call for Ada

[Robert I. Eachus]

Marin David Condic wrote:

> Sure. But one way or another, if you don't get some kind of revenue from 
> somewhere, nobody has this as a "job" - just a hobby. Hobby stuff takes 
> forever to emerge and won't have the kind of commercial support & 
> quality one expects from similar products.

The best way to do this would be to put together a reference book for 
the collection, and provide a CD with all the software plus compiler, 
for the PC.  (You could probably include other versions on the CD as 
well, but just having the non-Windows versions available for download is 
probably okay.)

Anyway, I have a project I have bitten off, and due to a failed disk, 
this is my first chance to get back to work on it...

-- 

                                           Robert I. Eachus

"The terrorist enemy holds no territory, defends no population, is 
unconstrained by rules of warfare, and respects no law of morality. Such 
an enemy cannot be deterred, contained, appeased or negotiated with. It 
can only be destroyed--and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the business 
at hand."  -- Dick Cheney

Re: No call for Ada

[Jeffrey Carter]

Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> Personally, I think that the need for web servers for companies doing 
> web commerce is an area where Ada's strengths will eventually mean that 
> it is needed to avoid the hazards associated with other languages. There 
> is a large, nasty group of crackers out there, and if they ever sniff 
> out the ability to redirect the billions of dollars in e-commerce 
> transactions into their accounts, financially safe software will be in 
> great demand.

Indeed. Buffer overflows account for about half of all known 
vulnerabilities. People have been "fixing" these errors for over a 
decade, yet even today people are creating new buffer-overflow 
vulnerabilities, so it appears that something stronger than knowing 
about the problem is needed to avoid them. Something like a language 
that doesn't allow them in the first place. Yet none of the discussions 
of how to improve security mention the effects of appropriate language 
choice.

When big customers refuse to use networking SW written in a language 
that allows buffer overflows, Ada, and products like AWS, will be there 
to fill the need. But the customers need to know that language choice 
can make a big difference.

The server SW at AdaIC.org is written in Ada, and I understand that 
there have been many attempts to crack it, but none have succeeded. It 
would be nice if that could be documented, written up, and presented at 
security conferences and published in security journals.

Even better, if we could find the resources, would be to set up a dummy 
web site using that SW, and offer a reward to anyone who can crack it. 
That would generate a lot of interest.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"Blessed are they who convert their neighbors'
oxen, for they shall inhibit their girth."
Monty Python's Life of Brian
83

Re: No call for Ada

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Jeffrey Carter wrote:

> Robert I. Eachus wrote:
> 
>> Personally, I think that the need for web servers for companies doing 
>> web commerce is an area where Ada's strengths will eventually mean 
>> that it is needed to avoid the hazards associated with other 
>> languages. There is a large, nasty group of crackers out there, and if 
>> they ever sniff out the ability to redirect the billions of dollars in 
>> e-commerce transactions into their accounts, financially safe software 
>> will be in great demand.
> 
> Indeed. Buffer overflows account for about half of all known 
> vulnerabilities. People have been "fixing" these errors for over a 
> decade, yet even today people are creating new buffer-overflow 
> vulnerabilities, so it appears that something stronger than knowing 
> about the problem is needed to avoid them. Something like a language 
> that doesn't allow them in the first place. Yet none of the discussions 
> of how to improve security mention the effects of appropriate language 
> choice.

That is why I have said in the past that someone needs to rewrite
BIND (DNS) in Ada. I would sleep better at night with an Ada version
of it exposed to the net than the C versions we use.

> When big customers refuse to use networking SW written in a language 
> that allows buffer overflows, Ada, and products like AWS, will be there 
> to fill the need. But the customers need to know that language choice 
> can make a big difference.

Absolutely.

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://ve3wwg.tk