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From: "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: What would you like in Ada202X?
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 18:18:34 -0500
Date: 2012-04-27T18:18:34-05:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <jnf9gh$et5$1@munin.nbi.dk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 2867357.127.1335561067669.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynee1

<sbelmont700@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:2867357.127.1335561067669.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynee1...
>procedure Shut_Down_Reactor (Reactor : Reactor_Type) is null;
>
>is quite literally a disater waiting to happen.

Sure, but bad management is not a reason to not include a language feature 
that is useful.

> Ada is all about being explicit,

And this *is* explicit. It says "is null", it doesn't imagine that.

>and takes a harsh stance on things that could be misused or abused to make 
>a program confusing (i.e. overloading, >etc), yet it gives an express lane 
>for writing subprograms that by definition don't do what they intend.

This is a significant misreading of Ada's design. Ada 83 included operator 
overloading, even though it is EASY to abuse that to write a confusing 
program:

     function "*" (Left, Right : My_Type) return My_Type is
     begin
          return Left + Right;
     end "*";

The Ada 83 Rationale has an explicit statement about this; the feature was 
included because it was useful, even though it can be misused.

And there are many other features (new and old) that can be abused.

We've talked about this several times in the ARG, and our feeling is that it 
is not our job (or the language's job) to prevent intentional misuse of the 
language. What Ada strives for is eliminating *unintentional* misuse; it 
hard to see that in this case (this is clearly intentional). There is no 
replacement for sensible and enforced programming style (and management that 
understands that without being heavy-handed).

Null procedures are intended to be used in places where doing nothing is a 
reasonable default action. For instance, when you have a "hook" that you 
wouldn't always use. One example was the (eventually rejected) storage pool 
dereference procedure; most pools would have no use for it, so it could be a 
null procedure; pools that did have a use for it could replace it with 
something interesting.

Note that Ada 95 did that (implicitly) for the Initialize/Adjust/Finalize 
routines of type Controlled. We made that more explicit in Ada 2005, but 
that did not reflect any language change. This is another example of a 
"hook".

Using a null procedure for something that must have an action is a serious 
bug, one that could not fail to be caught by a code review (it's hard to 
miss the very explicit "is null" in the code).

> The phrase "where the default behavior is null" is a contridiction in 
> terms; calling
> a subprogram to achieve the effect of not calling a subprogram is simply 
> bananas.

As noted above, it's common to have "hook" routines that aren't used in most 
implementations. It's impossible in general to remove those calls, so what 
else would you have the subprogram do??

                                      Randy.





  reply	other threads:[~2012-04-27 23:18 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 312+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2012-04-25  7:47 What would you like in Ada202X? Martin
2012-04-25  8:01 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25  8:30   ` stefan-lucks
2012-04-25 19:21   ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-28 11:50   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-28 13:21   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-29  1:03     ` BrianG
2012-04-25  8:36 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2012-04-25  8:46   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25  9:04     ` leonid
2012-04-25 11:30     ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2012-04-26  2:00       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-26 13:10         ` AdaMagica
2012-04-26 15:49       ` anon
2012-04-27  0:26         ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-25  9:10   ` Martin
2012-04-25  8:36 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25  8:59   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25  9:24     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25 10:05       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26  2:08       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-26  8:50         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-26 23:50           ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-27  5:03             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-27 13:50               ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-27 23:25               ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-28  6:32                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-27  7:56             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27 13:56               ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-28  8:32                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-28 11:44                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-29 13:35                   ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-29 15:59                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-29 19:27                       ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-29 20:09                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-01  2:17                     ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-25  9:31   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-26  2:10     ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-10  7:29   ` Gustaf Thorslund
2012-05-14  9:25     ` stefan-lucks
2012-05-14 12:19       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-14 13:09         ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-05-14 13:40           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-14 15:50             ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-05-14 20:24               ` Gustaf Thorslund
2012-05-14 22:49                 ` tmoran
2012-05-15  6:15                   ` Gustaf Thorslund
2012-04-25  9:09 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-25  9:14   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25  9:30   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25 13:11   ` Marc C
2012-04-25 13:35     ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-25 13:36     ` Pascal Obry
2012-04-25 14:18     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25 16:12     ` björn lundin
2012-04-25 17:36       ` Lucretia
2012-04-25 20:26         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26 15:20       ` Simon Wright
2012-04-28 10:58         ` björn lundin
2012-04-26 12:37     ` Marc C
2012-04-25 18:14   ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-25 18:51     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25 20:53     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25 21:14       ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-25 21:27         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25 21:30         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25 22:33           ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-26  0:50             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26  1:06               ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-28 11:02               ` okellogg
2012-04-28 11:48                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-29 13:43                 ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-29 16:59                   ` okellogg
2012-04-29 19:04                     ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-29 19:32                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-29 19:37                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-29 19:55                         ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-29 21:37                       ` okellogg
2012-04-29 22:51                         ` Robert A Duff
2012-04-26  2:23   ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-26  8:25     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-26 23:58       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-27  7:23         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27 22:42           ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-28  7:53             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-28 11:40               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-28 11:51                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-01  2:32               ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-27  7:41   ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2012-04-27 15:33     ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-29  7:57     ` J-P. Rosen
2012-04-29 17:32       ` Robert Love
2012-04-29 23:33       ` Shark8
2012-05-10  7:18   ` ytomino
2012-05-10 15:25     ` Adam Beneschan
2012-05-10 15:51       ` ytomino
2012-05-10 17:09         ` Adam Beneschan
2012-05-10 18:25           ` ytomino
2012-04-25 12:13 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-25 16:41   ` tmoran
2012-04-25 13:10 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2012-04-25 18:10   ` Zhu Qun-Ying
2012-04-25 18:07 ` okellogg
2012-04-25 19:15   ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-25 20:12     ` okellogg
2012-04-25 20:26       ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-25 21:09         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-25 21:11         ` Martin Dowie
2012-04-25 22:18           ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-26  2:36             ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-25 20:40       ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-25 22:05         ` okellogg
2012-04-25 23:13           ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-26  1:46             ` Brad Moore
2012-04-26  2:41             ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-26  7:43         ` Mart van de Wege
2012-04-26  8:46           ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-26 14:57             ` Mart van de Wege
2012-04-26 15:28           ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-26 18:16           ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-26 21:41             ` Mart van de Wege
2012-04-26 22:01               ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-25 20:19     ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-25 21:05   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26  2:33   ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-25 18:24 ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-04-25 19:02   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25 19:02 ` Oliver Kleinke
2012-04-25 19:27   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25 20:50   ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-26  8:15     ` Oliver Kleinke
2012-04-26  9:16       ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2012-04-26  9:16       ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-25 21:17   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26  8:18     ` Oliver Kleinke
2012-04-25 22:14 ` ytomino
2012-04-26  0:37   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26  2:52     ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-26 15:19       ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-26 15:55         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27  2:38         ` ytomino
2012-04-27  8:09           ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-27  8:19             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27  9:46               ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-27 10:05                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27 11:04                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-04-27 12:10                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-26  4:12     ` ytomino
2012-04-26  8:44     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-26 11:22       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26 13:17         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27  0:09       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-27  5:23         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-27 22:49           ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-27  7:31         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-27 22:46           ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-28  8:41             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-25 22:30 ` Shark8
2012-04-26  0:42   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26  9:29 ` gautier_niouzes
2012-04-26 11:27   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-26 13:19     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-30 22:38     ` gautier_niouzes
2012-04-27  0:18 ` sbelmont700
2012-04-27 16:04   ` Shark8
2012-04-27 21:11     ` sbelmont700
2012-04-27 23:18       ` Randy Brukardt [this message]
2012-04-27 23:40         ` sbelmont700
2012-04-28  2:17           ` Adam Beneschan
2012-04-28  8:03           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-29  3:20       ` Shark8
2012-04-29 15:42         ` sbelmont700
2012-04-29 23:29           ` Shark8
2012-04-30  2:00             ` sbelmont700
2012-04-27 23:03   ` Randy Brukardt
2012-04-27  5:10 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2012-04-27  5:36   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-04-27 10:59 ` Martin
2012-04-27 17:05   ` Simon Wright
2012-04-30  7:28     ` Martin
2012-05-01  2:45       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-01  7:28         ` Martin
2012-05-01 17:15           ` Shark8
2012-05-01 18:13             ` Jeffrey Carter
2012-05-01 19:30             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-01 20:23             ` Robert A Duff
2012-05-01 21:53               ` tmoran
2012-05-01 22:05                 ` Adam Beneschan
     [not found]                   ` <JYOdnei1xPFt8D3SnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
2012-05-02  4:28                     ` Shark8
2012-05-02  8:18             ` Martin
2012-05-02 12:57               ` Shark8
2012-05-08 17:45             ` Martin Dowie
2012-05-03 15:30           ` gautier_niouzes
2012-05-03 15:58             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-05-04  7:25               ` Martin
2012-05-01 16:23         ` Simon Wright
2012-04-29  3:52   ` Shark8
2012-04-29  7:13     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-04-29  9:17       ` gautier_niouzes
2012-04-27 15:33 ` mjsilva
2012-04-28  1:38   ` BrianG
2012-05-01 15:04     ` mjsilva
2012-04-30  6:28 ` Michael Rohan
2012-04-30  6:40 ` Michael Rohan
2012-04-30  8:27   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-05-06 18:48 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-06 19:27   ` Simon Wright
2012-05-06 20:47     ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-06 19:28   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-06 20:06     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-05-06 21:26     ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-07  7:49       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-07 23:18         ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-08  9:03           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-08 19:20             ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-08 19:44               ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-09  8:02               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-10  0:47                 ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-13 19:53                   ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-15  6:30                     ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-15  7:58                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-16  0:05                         ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-17 19:48                       ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-18  4:28                         ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-17 14:40                 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-17 17:12                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-07  6:33   ` ytomino
2012-05-07 22:34     ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-08  0:48       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-08  6:30         ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-08 22:11           ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-08 22:22           ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-09  7:18             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-10  0:30               ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-10  7:44                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-10 21:22             ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-11  7:39               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-12  0:11               ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-15 21:35                 ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-16  0:19                   ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-17 22:01                     ` Niklas Holsti
2012-05-18  4:35                       ` Randy Brukardt
2012-05-16  7:39                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-05-10  6:45       ` ytomino
2012-05-15 21:52         ` Niklas Holsti
2012-07-03 15:41   ` Pascal Obry
2012-07-03 15:50     ` Pascal Obry
2012-07-04 11:41       ` Ada novice
2012-07-04 12:30         ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2012-07-04 17:05           ` shai.lesh
2012-07-04 17:55           ` Simon Wright
2012-07-04 18:35             ` Nasser M. Abbasi
     [not found]             ` <0o59v7djiffnl7sqdpp2uiso78oa9hb8sb@invalid.netcom.com>
2012-07-04 20:34               ` shai.lesh
2012-07-04 22:26                 ` Simon Wright
     [not found]                   ` <j5p9v7l646mlk9m073u4m69dg3gjfjblfm@invalid.netcom.com>
2012-07-05  7:53                     ` shai.lesh
2012-07-05  8:18                       ` Simon Wright
2012-07-06  0:48                         ` John B. Matthews
2012-07-05  8:30                       ` georg bauhaus
2012-07-05 11:57                         ` shai.lesh
2012-07-05 12:11                           ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2012-07-05 12:21                             ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2012-07-05 13:07                               ` shai.lesh
2012-07-05 14:08                                 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2012-07-05 15:51                                   ` Ada novice
2012-07-05 15:55                   ` johnscpg
2012-07-05 16:57                     ` Simon Wright
2012-07-05 17:36                       ` shai.lesh
2012-07-06 12:07                       ` Ada novice
2012-07-06 15:29                         ` Simon Wright
2012-07-12  6:02                           ` Egil Høvik
2012-07-12  8:29                             ` Simon Wright
2012-07-12  9:00                               ` Egil Høvik
2012-07-12 12:44                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-07-12 13:20                                   ` Egil Høvik
2012-07-12 15:53                                   ` Adam Beneschan
2012-07-12 16:34                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-07-12 17:35                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-07-19  6:44                                     ` David Thompson
2012-07-19 18:22                                       ` Simon Wright
2012-07-20  6:20                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2012-07-27 19:49                                           ` Ada novice
2012-07-12  9:47                               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2012-05-10 13:13 ` Martin
2012-05-18  9:56 ` Marius Amado-Alves
2012-06-04  8:10 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-06-11 21:54 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2012-06-29 11:29 ` joachim.schroeer
2012-06-29 11:54   ` AdaMagica
2012-06-29 12:42     ` stefan-lucks
2012-06-29 15:12     ` Adam Beneschan
2012-07-03  0:47     ` Randy Brukardt
2012-06-29 12:13   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-06-29 22:37     ` Robert A Duff
2012-06-30 12:00 ` Brian Drummond
2012-06-30 12:34   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-06-30 17:00     ` Brian Drummond
2012-06-30 18:43       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-06-30 21:06         ` Brian Drummond
2012-07-01  8:17           ` Oliver Kellogg
2012-07-01  8:28             ` Pascal Obry
2012-07-01  8:25           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-07-01 10:57             ` Brian Drummond
2012-07-01 12:46               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2012-07-03  0:53               ` Randy Brukardt
2012-06-30 15:51   ` Robert A Duff
2012-06-30 17:37     ` Brian Drummond
2012-06-30 18:09       ` Robert A Duff
2012-06-30 18:26       ` Niklas Holsti
2012-07-01 10:47         ` Brian Drummond
2012-07-13  8:07 ` Martin
2012-07-13 11:04   ` Pascal Obry
2012-07-13 11:13     ` Martin
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