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From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>
Subject: Re: Seeking for papers about tagged types vs access to subprograms
Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 09:42:14 +0200
Date: 2013-05-11T09:42:14+02:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <hxkln519n179.1kt13z7phxg2f.dlg@40tude.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 518dedd4$0$6581$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net

On Sat, 11 May 2013 09:06:11 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote:

> On 11.05.13 08:37, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>> First of all, there are preconditions of operations and the precondition
>> put on individual calls. I don't know which one you mean here. But the
>> preconditions of operations must be statically true. Meaning: a declared
>> operation can be called anywhere. The client may annotate his calls to the
>> operation with additional preconditions related to the logic of the program
>> that uses the operation. These are not the property of the operation and
>> unrelated to the type.
>>
>> The idea that the precondition of first kind should depend on the state of
>> the objects involved in the operation is a very, VERY bad idea.
> 
> How do you specify the preconditions of the second kind (on individual
> calls) in such a way that a programmer, wishing to calling these operations,
> ensures the calls won't fail as a consequence of violating these
> preconditions?

"Fail" is a wrong word here. The right wording is ensuring postconditions.
That is completely unrelated issue, IMO.

I have a feeling that people confuse typing with this, which is basically
program correctness en large. You cannot ensure program correctness through
types. And since full correctness proof is unachievable anyway I want to
separate it from types.

Second kind checks (e.g. SPARK) should be optional so that the programmer
would add or remove checks depending on requirements and provability. 

Especially because there is also a big difference in the design of type
checks and correctness checks. We design types top-down, at least the most
important ones. Type design is frequently irreversible, few things can be
changed later without big troubles. It is almost waterfall. On the
contrary, the correctness checks are bottom-up. You probably never get to
the top. But you can well figure up essential things at the bottom for
which it were possible and desirable to check things statically.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de



  reply	other threads:[~2013-05-11  7:42 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 202+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-04-28  5:14 Seeking for papers about tagged types vs access to subprograms Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-04-30  0:31 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-04-30  0:41   ` Shark8
2013-04-30  1:00     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-02  1:18       ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-02  2:29         ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-06 10:00   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-06 10:18     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-06 10:55       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-06 12:11         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-06 13:16           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-06 14:16             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-06 15:15               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-06 18:55                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-06 20:05                   ` Adam Beneschan
2013-05-07  7:30                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10  4:33                     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-07 20:35                   ` Jacob Sparre Andersen news
2013-05-07 20:44                     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-07 22:32                     ` Dennis Lee Bieber
2013-05-07 23:10                       ` Adam Beneschan
2013-05-08  0:18                     ` Shark8
2013-05-10  4:34                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  8:27                         ` Simon Wright
2013-05-10 18:08                         ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-08  7:38                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-08  7:59                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08  8:23                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-08  9:39                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08  9:51                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08 10:23                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-08 11:08                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08 15:29                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-08 16:13                                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08 18:17                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10  4:35                                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08 20:27                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-09  7:33                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-09 22:19                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-10  3:29                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  4:16                                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  8:42                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10 11:18                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10 12:15                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10 12:40                                                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10 12:59                                                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10 13:54                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10 14:01                                                     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10 14:27                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10 15:20                                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  7:22                                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2013-05-10 18:04                                           ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-10 19:33                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  0:18                                             ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-11  7:14                                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11 21:06                                               ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-11 23:19                                                 ` Shark8
2013-05-12  6:09                                                   ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-14  2:02                                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-12  6:44                                                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-12  8:10                                                   ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-12  8:49                                                     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-12 18:56                                                     ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-12 22:15                                                       ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-13  0:26                                                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-13  7:03                                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-13 13:15                                                           ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-13 17:30                                                             ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-13 18:01                                                               ` J-P. Rosen
2013-05-13 18:39                                                                 ` Bill Findlay
2013-05-13 18:57                                                                 ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-13 19:13                                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-13 20:38                                                                   ` J-P. Rosen
2013-05-14  7:26                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14 20:00                                                                       ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-15 10:10                                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14 19:56                                                                     ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-15  4:24                                                                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-15  9:28                                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-15 11:31                                                                           ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-15 12:32                                                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-15 19:59                                                                               ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-15 20:56                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-15 12:46                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-15 18:15                                                                             ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-15 19:18                                                                               ` Eryndlia Mavourneen
2013-05-15 19:57                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-15 20:37                                                                                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-15 20:48                                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-16 12:45                                                                                       ` Eryndlia Mavourneen
2013-05-16 17:16                                                                                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2013-05-16  9:41                                                                                 ` G.B.
2013-05-16 12:35                                                                                   ` J-P. Rosen
2013-05-15 14:21                                                                       ` J-P. Rosen
2013-05-14  2:14                                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-14 19:35                                                           ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-15  4:11                                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-16 23:36                                                             ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-13  5:21                                                       ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-13  7:22                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-13  8:23                                                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-13 19:20                                                           ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-14  8:14                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10  3:47                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  0:22                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-11  7:22                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  3:59                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  4:03                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  7:48                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-10  8:12                                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10 15:11                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  0:42                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-11  6:37                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11  7:06                                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2013-05-11  7:42                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov [this message]
2013-05-11  8:14                                                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-14  2:29                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-14  7:44                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14 11:34                                                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-14 12:16                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14 13:13                                                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-14 18:41                                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-15 11:20                                                           ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-15 13:00                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-15 21:12                                                               ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-15 22:08                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-16 11:31                                                                   ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-16 11:56                                                                     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-16 12:20                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-16 13:10                                                                       ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-16 13:54                                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-16 17:15                                                                           ` G.B.
2013-05-16 18:09                                                                             ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-16 19:16                                                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-16 21:59                                                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2013-05-17 19:57                                                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-16 21:20                                                                               ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-16 23:20                                                                                 ` Peter C. Chapin
2013-05-17  5:25                                                                                   ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-17  7:53                                                                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2013-05-16 13:09                                                                     ` Eryndlia Mavourneen
2013-05-11  7:58                                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  9:08                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11 18:14                                                 ` Niklas Holsti
2013-05-11  8:03                                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  9:16                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11 11:49                                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2013-05-11 12:25                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11 22:51                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-12  6:02                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-12  6:25                                                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-12  7:14                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-12  7:37                                                           ` Simon Wright
2013-05-12  7:59                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-12  8:21                                                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-12  9:25                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-12  9:32                                                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-12 10:07                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11  7:32                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  7:46                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-14 12:46                                         ` Weaker typing as a part of the way to stronger typing? (Was: Seeking for papers about tagged types vs access to subprograms) Jacob Sparre Andersen
2013-05-14 19:08                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-10 16:02                                       ` Seeking for papers about tagged types vs access to subprograms Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08 20:12                       ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-09  7:50                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-09 21:43                           ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-10  4:39                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-10  7:49                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11  0:09                               ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-11  6:40                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14  3:01                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-14  8:32                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14 19:02                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-15  4:43                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-16 23:27                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-15  9:14                                       ` G.B.
2013-05-15 12:08                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-15 14:43                                           ` G.B.
2013-05-15 15:02                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14 19:21                                     ` Robert A Duff
2013-05-10  4:29                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-07  1:14             ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-07  2:42               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-07  1:09     ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-07  7:41       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-07 20:27         ` Jacob Sparre Andersen news
2013-05-07 20:40           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-08  7:57           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-08 20:37             ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-09  8:04               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-09 21:33                 ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-10  7:15                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-11  1:00                     ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-11  7:08                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2013-05-11  7:12                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-14  2:52                         ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-11  5:31                     ` Simon Wright
2013-05-11  7:22                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-02  1:09 ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-02  6:56   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2013-05-02 21:49     ` Randy Brukardt
2013-05-03  6:49       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
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