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From: Maciej Sobczak <no.spam@no.spam.com>
Subject: Re: GC in Ada
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 12:15:55 +0100
Date: 2007-02-07T12:15:55+01:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <eqccdc$k89$1@cernne03.cern.ch> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <45c99c24$1@news.post.ch>

Martin Krischik wrote:

>> What I'm against is a GC "paradigm" that prevents me from having 
>> deterministic "good bye" hooks for scoped lifetime. The problem is 
>> that most GC-oriented languages I'm aware of do have this "issue".
> 
> But isn't that exactly what "Unchecked_Deallocation" and "pragma 
> Controlled" is all about? Has Ada - by your rationale - not got GC right?

By my rationale Ada and C++ got it perfectly right ([Limited_]Controlled 
mess aside).

The only difference between them in this regard is that Ada explicitly 
allows GC on the low level without requiring it (so that implementations 
can ignore the whole idea) and that C++ is traditionally silent about 
the concept altogether (so that implementations can provide it). ;-)

(Note that GC will likely be formalized in the upcoming C++ standard.)

My criticism is targeted at those languages which bring GC to the top 
level obstructing the visible part of the object model.

-- 
Maciej Sobczak : http://www.msobczak.com/
Programming    : http://www.msobczak.com/prog/



  parent reply	other threads:[~2007-02-07 11:15 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 395+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-01-23  5:53 How come Ada isn't more popular? artifact.one
2007-01-23  6:37 ` adaworks
2007-01-23  6:50   ` artifact.one
2007-01-23 14:24   ` Arthur Evans Jr
2007-01-23 20:11     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 21:14       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-23 15:23   ` Ed Falis
2007-01-23 20:09   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  8:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-24 20:23       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24 11:06     ` gautier_niouzes
2007-01-24 19:25       ` tmoran
2007-01-25  4:46         ` Gautier
2007-01-25  9:29           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 16:59             ` Stephen Leake
2007-01-27 20:40               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 21:19                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-28  8:44                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-01-29  8:56                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-29 14:21                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-31  9:23                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-31 10:24                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02  8:42                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-02  9:32                           ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-02-02 11:04                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-02 13:57                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03  9:44                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:51                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 17:55                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 20:18                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 21:29                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 22:33                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  9:20                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-05 12:16                                           ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-02-05 14:06                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-05 13:53                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  9:59                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-05 13:43                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06  9:15                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-06 11:45                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 14:16                                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-06 15:44                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 17:40                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-07  8:55                                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-07  9:30                                           ` GC in Ada Martin Krischik
2007-02-07 11:08                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 11:15                                             ` Maciej Sobczak [this message]
2007-02-07 11:53                                               ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-07 12:22                                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  7:26                                                   ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-08  9:33                                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 13:37                                                       ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-09 13:47                                                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-09 15:29                                                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 20:52                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-08  7:48                                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08  8:20                                                   ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-08  8:43                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 14:20                                                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 16:23                                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-12  8:52                                                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-12 12:56                                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08 18:24                                                   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-09  8:57                                                     ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-09 12:57                                                       ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-09 14:44                                                         ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-10 13:38                                                           ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-12  8:47                                                             ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-12 15:31                                                               ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-09 18:35                                                       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-10 19:01                                                         ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-11 15:22                                                         ` Pascal Obry
2007-02-11 20:30                                                           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-13 18:47                                                             ` Pascal Obry
2007-02-13 23:08                                                               ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-14 11:13                                                                 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-14 16:29                                                                   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-14 19:47                                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-14 11:10                                                               ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-14 16:29                                                                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-15  8:39                                                                   ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-15 17:14                                                                     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-08 18:38                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09  7:58                                                   ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 10:07                                                   ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-09 14:10                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-07 12:19                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  7:54                                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08  9:49                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 10:10                                           ` How come Ada isn't more popular? Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-07 10:56                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 22:58                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-08  9:04                                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08 10:01                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 17:47                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 18:05                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-06 18:28                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07  7:54                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-07  9:42                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  8:10                                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08 18:14                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09  8:17                                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 14:02                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09 18:08                                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 18:43                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09 18:57                                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 18:03                                                 ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 18:47                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-09 19:02                                                     ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 19:35                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-09 19:52                                                         ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-12  7:20                                                           ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-02-12 14:12                                                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-09 22:11                                                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 22:05                                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-10  1:31                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-10  2:18                                                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05 19:05                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09  8:01                           ` adaworks
2007-02-09  9:07                             ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-09 10:36                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 12:50                                 ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-09 14:02                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-10 18:21                                     ` adaworks
2007-02-10 18:41                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-10 20:29                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09 14:12                                   ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 19:41                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-12  9:07                                       ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-12 20:56                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-13  9:02                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-14 10:12                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09  9:21                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 21:42           ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-28 19:32             ` Gautier
2007-01-30 19:41               ` tmoran
2007-01-25 22:21           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 11:31   ` Ali Bendriss
2007-01-27  5:12     ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-27  9:52       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 22:01         ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-27 23:24           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-28  9:14             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-28 15:06               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 14:37                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-29 15:50                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-30 19:58                     ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-30 21:52                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-31 22:49                         ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-31 23:07                           ` (see below)
2007-01-31 23:18                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-31 23:36                               ` (see below)
2007-02-01  7:57                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-31 17:49                       ` Ed Falis
2007-01-31 22:53                         ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-31 10:55                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-31 15:16                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 14:22                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-01 15:18                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 16:26                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-01 17:36                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 20:53                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-01 21:57                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 22:03                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 23:40                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03 16:54                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-03 18:39                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 20:06                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  0:06                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05 13:58                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-05 14:23                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02  7:17                                 ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-02-05  0:39                               ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-05  1:00                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02  9:20                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-02 12:34                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03  9:45                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:16                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 19:33                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 20:44                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 23:00                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 23:21                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 14:27                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-02 16:07                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-01 19:31                           ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-01 22:54                             ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-02  1:37                               ` in defense of GC (was Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?) Ray Blaak
2007-02-02  9:35                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-02 12:44                                   ` in defense of GC Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03 10:13                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:28                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 18:38                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 20:24                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 21:57                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 22:47                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 23:08                                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05 15:57                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  8:47                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-05 14:03                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  0:23                                         ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-05  0:55                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06  0:01                                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-06  1:06                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  1:00                                           ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-05  1:19                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06  8:32                                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 11:07                                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 18:01                                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 18:25                                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 19:42                                                     ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06  0:18                                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-06  0:59                                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06  1:07                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 18:15                                   ` in defense of GC (was Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?) Ray Blaak
2007-02-02 19:35                                     ` Adam Beneschan
2007-02-02 20:04                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-02 22:40                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-03 10:00                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:30                                           ` in defense of GC Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 12:36                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 21:50                                 ` in defense of GC (was Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?) Gautier
2007-02-04  8:19                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-04 17:36                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2007-02-04 21:21                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-05  1:12                                 ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-05  9:06                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06  0:28                                     ` in defense of GC Robert A Duff
2007-02-06  8:24                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 11:50                                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07  7:44                                           ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-07  8:54                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-07 11:19                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 23:32                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-08  8:49                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 14:09                                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-09 16:17                                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 20:51                                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-09 22:19                                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  9:24                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 15:08                                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-07 19:01                                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-07 11:17                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 16:23                 ` How come Ada isn't more popular? Georg Bauhaus
2007-01-29 16:56                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 23:56       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-23  6:58 ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-01-23 10:31   ` Talulah
2007-01-23 13:48     ` Anders Wirzenius
2007-01-23 20:17     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 20:43       ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24  9:42       ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-24 20:48         ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 10:02 ` Stephen Leake
2007-01-23 16:49   ` adaworks
2007-01-23 17:40     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 12:51       ` Peter Hermann
2007-01-24 14:42         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-23 20:10   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 22:37     ` Frank J. Lhota
2007-01-24  7:27       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  9:50         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-24 20:25           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24 21:34             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25  9:23               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  7:59               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-26 20:05                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-26 22:43                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-23 21:19   ` Björn Persson
2007-01-23 10:38 ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-01-23 12:58   ` gautier_niouzes
2007-01-23 21:56   ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2007-01-24 13:52     ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-01-24 19:25     ` tmoran
2007-01-24 19:38     ` artifact.one
2007-01-26  2:50     ` Keith Thompson
2007-01-26  5:29     ` Gautier
2007-01-27  5:22     ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-23 19:16 ` Tero Koskinen
2007-01-23 21:12   ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-24  9:59     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-24 18:22       ` Yves Bailly
2007-01-24 19:18       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25  8:37         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-25  9:40           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  8:52             ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-26 11:40               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 16:56             ` Stephen Leake
2007-01-27 19:58               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-28 17:12                 ` Ed Falis
2007-01-28 18:38                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 10:13           ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-25 12:54             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  7:03               ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-25 13:08             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 22:36             ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 23:26               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  4:23                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-26 11:35                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26 20:22                     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-26 23:04                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 19:57                         ` Frank J. Lhota
2007-01-28 20:43                         ` adaworks
2007-01-28 22:57                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  1:04                           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-28 20:32                   ` adaworks
2007-01-28 21:12                     ` Cesar Rabak
2007-01-28 22:43                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 22:40                         ` Cesar Rabak
2007-01-30  9:31                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-30 16:19                           ` adaworks
2007-01-30 21:05                             ` Jeffrey Creem
2007-01-31  7:59                               ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-02-03 16:33                                 ` Martin Krischik
2007-01-28 22:38                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 16:16                       ` adaworks
2007-01-29 16:35                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  1:02                     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-30  0:21                       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-26  7:21                 ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-26  7:16               ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-27  5:30             ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-24 20:10   ` Cesar Rabak
2007-01-23 20:02 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  7:18   ` adaworks
2007-01-24 14:19   ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-01-24 15:27     ` Poll on background of Ada people (was: How come Ada isn't more po) Larry Kilgallen
2007-01-23 21:36 ` How come Ada isn't more popular? kevin  cline
2007-01-23 22:18   ` Martin Dowie
2007-01-24  4:14     ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-24  7:30       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24 20:15         ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-25 22:16           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 23:32             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  8:50               ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-01-26 11:52                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  6:16                   ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-01-29 14:31                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  8:56               ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-26 11:49                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26 22:05             ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-24  7:31     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  7:42     ` kevin  cline
2007-01-24  8:07       ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-24 12:12         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 12:48           ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-24 14:49             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 13:40           ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 14:50             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 17:22               ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 17:56                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 18:09                   ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 19:37                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 19:52                       ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 21:31                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-03-19  2:09                           ` adaworks
2007-01-25  7:52                     ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-24 16:25         ` Adam Beneschan
2007-01-24 17:03           ` Niklas Holsti
2007-01-25 15:37           ` Bob Spooner
2007-02-06  9:54         ` Dave Thompson
2007-02-06 11:01           ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-02-26  5:47             ` Dave Thompson
2007-01-24 16:14       ` adaworks
2007-01-25  0:22         ` kevin  cline
2007-01-25  6:04           ` adaworks
2007-01-25 10:37             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-25 23:36               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 10:42           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-25  8:27         ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-25  4:50       ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-27  5:43       ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-27  8:38         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-28 12:11           ` Michael Bode
2007-01-28 15:20             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  9:44               ` Martin Krischik
2007-01-27 13:06         ` Gautier
2007-01-27 16:28           ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-28  0:55           ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-28  1:18             ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-28 17:06             ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-28 21:11             ` adaworks
2007-01-24 19:33   ` Arthur Evans Jr
     [not found]     ` <egYth.15026$w91.10597@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
2007-01-25 22:34       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 22:55         ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-26 19:59           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-27  3:54         ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-24  0:12 ` JPWoodruff
2007-01-24 10:32   ` gautier_niouzes
2007-01-25  1:01   ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-26  5:01     ` JPWoodruff
2007-03-05  2:19 ` Brian May
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1986-04-04  3:41 GC in Ada Rick Conn
1986-04-02 17:50 Stavros Macrakis
1986-04-02  3:02 Rick Conn
1986-04-01 22:00 Stavros Macrakis
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