OT: Meaning of the word "free"

OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Larry Kilgallen]

Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
"libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
"free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Jeffrey Carter]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
> word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
> off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
> "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?

Since "bug free" implies freedom from bugs, similar to freedom from
oppression, I would guess "libre". However, this really seems to be more
like a 3rd overloading of the word. The French would actually say
something along the lines of "sans insects".

-- 
Jeff Carter
"Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Jean-Marc Bourguet]

Jeffrey Carter <jrcarter@acm.org> writes:

> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> > 
> > Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
> > word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
> > off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
> > "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
> > "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?
> 
> Since "bug free" implies freedom from bugs, similar to freedom from
> oppression, I would guess "libre". However, this really seems to be more
> like a 3rd overloading of the word. The French would actually say
> something along the lines of "sans insects".

That would be "sans insectes" but we use "bug" or "bogue" for this
meaning of bug, so "sans bogues", "sans bugs".  "Libre" is sometimes
used also with the meaning "without" so "libre de bugs/bogues" would
also be correct but I don't remeber seeing it used.

-- 
Jean-Marc

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Preben Randhol]

On 21 Nov 2001 16:28:33 -0600, Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
> word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
> off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
> "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?

Well I guess if you use gratis it says that you don't have to pay for
the bugs ;-) As I'm not a frech speaker let me use my own language to
illustrate since we also use the word gratis.

In Norwegian we have the two words fri and gratis (from latin: gratia=thanks).

fri = free (that is as in free speech, liberty etc...)
gratis = free (as in getting somthing without having to pay)

so:

   Jeg er fri.             = I am free.
   Jeg fikk en gratis �l   = I got a free beer.

   Koden er feilfri[*]     = The code is bug-free.

   feilfri is composed of the words: feil = error and fri and really
   reads error-free, but I guess bug-free is more used in English.

Hope it helps

Preben
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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Preben Randhol]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 01:44:21 GMT, Jeffrey Carter wrote:
> Since "bug free" implies freedom from bugs, similar to freedom from
> oppression, I would guess "libre". However, this really seems to be more
> like a 3rd overloading of the word. The French would actually say
> something along the lines of "sans insects".

Are you sure they would use the word insects for bug and not a word for
error?

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Julio Cano]

Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<5LHYDjy2Mcfg@eisner.encompasserve.org>...
> off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
> "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of

I don't speak french, so i don't know if those words are french (too),
'couse i'm spanish and i can tell that those words are spanish.
We could say "libre" is meant to be for "free use", "gratis" is some
thing you don't pay for...

> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?

but can't find a word for "bug-free", just expresions like "libre de
errores", "libre de fallos" or "sin fallos".

(Not a good idea to begin answering an off-topic)

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Georg Bauhaus]

Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:

:   Jeg fikk en gratis ?l   = I got a free beer.

wich is "Freibier" in German, or "Bier umsonst" where
"umsonst" is overloaded, gratis or: in vain...
Hm, there is beer free of alcohol (alkoholfrei), so you get
no alcohol for free.

--Georg
Is there a free the bugs movement already?

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Adrian Knoth]

Julio Cano <jukano@visto.com> wrote:

>> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?
> but can't find a word for "bug-free", just expresions like "libre de
> errores", "libre de fallos" or "sin fallos".

But this is a restriction of your language. In German you might use
"fehlerfrei" which would be a direct translation of "error-free".

It is a well known drawback of "French-like" languages (roman anchestory?)
which use the "reverse expression", commonly with "of/de/avec".

Examples for those reverse expressions are: UNO<->ONU, NATO<->OTAN,
"a fast train"<->"train � grande vitesse" and so on.

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Pascal Obry]

Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:

> Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
> word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
> off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
> "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?

"gratis" is a slang word in French, the right word is "gratuit".

"Bug-free" => "sans bug" but "libre" is the meaning in "bug-free", "gratuit"
is used for "free-beer".

Pascal.

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Preben Randhol]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 18:31:02 +0000 (UTC), Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> Preben Randhol <randhol+abuse@pvv.org> wrote:
> 
>:   Jeg fikk en gratis ?l   = I got a free beer.
> 
> wich is "Freibier" in German, or "Bier umsonst" where

which means that Frei can be overloaded in German too.

We also have alkoholfri 

> Is there a free the bugs movement already?

No it is a free the free bugs movement ;-)

Preben
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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Julio Cano]

Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> wrote in message news:<9tjno3$fhi$1@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de>...
> Julio Cano <jukano@visto.com> wrote:
> 
> > but can't find a word for "bug-free", just expresions like "libre de
> > errores", "libre de fallos" or "sin fallos".
> 
> But this is a restriction of your language. In German you might use
> "fehlerfrei" which would be a direct translation of "error-free".

Something alike happens to Ada when compared to C++ like languages
(Java, etc.). I mean, by example:
C++:
     Jhony.run();
Ada:
     run (Jhony);

Isn't it like that? It doesn't mean Ada is not OO.

> It is a well known drawback of "French-like" languages (roman anchestory?)
> which use the "reverse expression", commonly with "of/de/avec".

Is it a drawback in Ada too? 
The way we see that is that then 'saxon' way is the reversed one ;)

Bye.

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[John English]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
> word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
> off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
> "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?

Oh, definitely neither. Microsoft *charge* you for every bug they ship
in their "bug free" code...

Or possibly: "Special offer! Buy now while stocks last! FREE bugs with
every copy of Windows XP purchased before 2275AD!" :-)

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[John English]

Jean-Marc Bourguet wrote:
> 
> That would be "sans insectes" but we use "bug" or "bogue" for this
> meaning of bug, so "sans bogues", "sans bugs".  "Libre" is sometimes
> used also with the meaning "without" so "libre de bugs/bogues" would
> also be correct but I don't remeber seeing it used.

"Bogue" is an interesting word -- what does it really mean? Is it
related to the English words "bogle" or "bogy" (both of which mean
a goblin)? As in "gremlin", maybe?

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[John English]

Julio Cano wrote:
> (Not a good idea to begin answering an off-topic)

No, but it generates a much more interesting discussion than those
which are perhaps aimed at Ada monolinguists :-)
 
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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Jeffrey Carter]

Julio Cano wrote:
> 
> 
> C++:
>      Jhony.run();
> Ada:
>      run (Jhony);

Johnny.Run;

Perfectly good Ada, if Johnny is a package, protected object, or task.

Johnny.Run (Away);

can also be a record component of an access-to-procedure type. Ada seems
to have more ways to achieve this notation that C++.

Ada: Money for nothing, and the bugs are free.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"I blow my nose on you."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Pascal Obry]

John English <je@brighton.ac.uk> writes:

> "Bogue" is an interesting word -- what does it really mean? Is it

I'm not sure it is so interesting. In France we like French word :), so we
have created many French words after English words and tried to keep the same
way to pronnouce it, some examples:

"bug"   -> "bogue"
"mail"  -> "m�l"
"CDROM" -> "c�d�rom"
...

The last one is certainly the most stupid in my view since we lose the
acronym!

Just my 2 cents,
Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
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--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3BFEEA20.D9B4DB94@brighton.ac.uk>, John English <je@brighton.ac.uk> writes:
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>> 
>> Since certain people here in comp.lang.ada say that the English
>> word "free" is overloaded, perhaps someone could answer a slightly
>> off-topic question.  The choices in French, as I understand it, are
>> "libre" and "gratis".  Which one of those corresponds to the use of
>> "free" in the English phrase "bug-free" ?
> 
> Oh, definitely neither. Microsoft *charge* you for every bug they ship
> in their "bug free" code...
> 
> Or possibly: "Special offer! Buy now while stocks last! FREE bugs with
> every copy of Windows XP purchased before 2275AD!" :-)

I suppose the English "free" is often an abbreviation for "free of charge",
whereas the FSF "free" is an abbreviation for "free of certain contractual
restrictions".

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Adrian Knoth]

Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>> "Bogue" is an interesting word -- what does it really mean? Is it
> I'm not sure it is so interesting. In France we like French word :), 

So much that you don't call it byte, but octet :)

> The last one is certainly the most stupid in my view 

We here in Germany do it quite the other way round. We directly use
the English term. That's why a special computer (sorry, l'ordinateur :)
slang appeared and non-technical people were no longer able to follow.
But that doesn't really matter, because not understanding the terms
also means not to understand the plot. :)))

I could get amused about these differences. The cellphone, the mobile
and wireless phone, is strange, too. In English it is cellphone,
the Germans call it "Handy" (pronounced English, means "to hold it
in the hand") and for the Frenchs it is nomade, which would (for us)
mean "not to settle down" - "moving around, itinerant".


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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Robert Dewar]

Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<MGpFFSdbDgLH@eisner.encompasserve.org>...
> I suppose the English "free" is often an abbreviation for 
> "free of charge"

Well sometimes yes, sometimes no, When New Hampshire people
drive around with "Live Free or Die" on their license plates it does
not mean they are madly driving around looking for free hamburgers.
Equally when Martin Luther
King said "Free, free at last", he was not talking about
winning the lottery.

The word in English is used pretty equally in both senses.
You usually know from context which is meant. The only 
reason we have this discussion is that when we talk of
Free Software, the context is often ambiguous, and we do
get confused in English (though not in French, where for
example ACT Europe uses the phrase "GNAT Pro, c'est libre,
may c'est n'est pas gratuit", which does not translate well

> whereas the FSF "free" is an abbreviation for "free of 
> certain contractual

No, that's actually the wrong way of looking at it. The
Free in free software is referring to the fact that as a
recipient of the software, you are free (i.e. have the
freedom) to make effective use of the software, including
for example modification and redistribution.

Yes, it is true that this freedom corresponds to being free
of contractual restrictions, but that's really not the proper
emphasis. The Free in Free Software is definitely
the "Live Free or Die" use of the word, not the "bug-free"
use of the word (the two uses are related but distinct).

Robert Dewar

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Pascal Obry]

Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> writes:

> Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
> >> "Bogue" is an interesting word -- what does it really mean? Is it
> > I'm not sure it is so interesting. In France we like French word :), 
> 
> So much that you don't call it byte, but octet :)

At least "octet" come from the latin octo which means eight. So there is a
meaning here :)

> I could get amused about these differences. The cellphone, the mobile
> and wireless phone, is strange, too. In English it is cellphone,
> the Germans call it "Handy" (pronounced English, means "to hold it
> in the hand") and for the Frenchs it is nomade, which would (for us)

No, French word for cellphone is mobile (pronounced "mobeel") or portable the
short form for "t�l�phone portable".

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
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--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Adrian Knoth]

Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:


>> > I'm not sure it is so interesting. In France we like French word :), 
>> So much that you don't call it byte, but octet :)
> At least "octet" come from the latin octo which means eight. So there is a
> meaning here :)

Yeah, I knew that. First I was a little bit confused like "Who they
believe they are? Everyone calls it byte?" but then I saw the pro
in teaching: you probably couldn't forget that eight bits are one "octet"

So to say: nice idea!


>> in the hand") and for the Frenchs it is nomade, which would (for us)
> No, French word for cellphone is mobile (pronounced "mobeel") 

Oh... I think I must call my former correspondent. He told me that it
is "nomade". But that was some years ago and cellphones were not so
widely spread.

I guess there is more than one term for cellphone, in addition to
"Handy" we also have "Funktelefon" (radio-phone) or "Mobil-Telefon"
(mobile phone).

How do you call WirelessLAN?

Oh this whole threads tends to be a little OT :)

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Pascal Obry]

Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> writes:

> >> in the hand") and for the Frenchs it is nomade, which would (for us)
> > No, French word for cellphone is mobile (pronounced "mobeel") 
> 
> Oh... I think I must call my former correspondent. He told me that it
> is "nomade". But that was some years ago and cellphones were not so
> widely spread.
> 
> I guess there is more than one term for cellphone, in addition to

No "nomade" is not Cellphone. Nomade is used for everything that has not a
specific place. "nomade" is nomadic in English. You can say Nomadic
Technology, so cellphone is a nomadic technology but a cellphone
can't be called a "nomade".

> How do you call WirelessLAN?

R�seau sans fil :)

> Oh this whole threads tends to be a little OT :)

Yep :) This will be my last message in this thread.

Pascal.

-- 

--|------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                           Team-Ada Member
--| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE
--|------------------------------------------------------
--|         http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry
--|
--| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Florian Weimer]

Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> writes:

> Yeah, I knew that. First I was a little bit confused like "Who they
> believe they are? Everyone calls it byte?"

"Octet" is common even in English stadardese.  POSIX uses it, for
example.

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Georg Bauhaus]

Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> wrote:
:  in addition to
: "Handy" we also have "Funktelefon" (radio-phone) or "Mobil-Telefon"
: (mobile phone).

also "speaking bone". Now thats interdisciplinary.

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[David Starner]

On 24 Nov 2001 20:00:14 GMT, Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> wrote:
> Yeah, I knew that. First I was a little bit confused like "Who they
> believe they are? Everyone calls it byte?" but then I saw the pro
> in teaching: you probably couldn't forget that eight bits are one "octet"

But eight bits aren't nessecarily one byte. A byte has ranged from 6-9
bits, with 1-6 bits on the 1956 IBM Stretch and 1-36 bits on the PDP-10.

-- 
David Starner - starner@okstate.edu
Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org
"I saw a daemon stare into my face, and an angel touch my breast; each 
one softly calls my name . . . the daemon scares me less."
- "Disciple", Stuart Davis

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[tmoran]

>whereas the FSF "free" is an abbreviation for "free of certain contractual
>restrictions".
  Or perhaps it means "free" in the same sense as "The homeless are
free of worry over mortgages or rent."

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Jean-Marc Bourguet]

Adrian Knoth <adi@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de> writes:

> Pascal Obry <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
> >> "Bogue" is an interesting word -- what does it really mean? Is it
> > I'm not sure it is so interesting. In France we like French word :), 
> 
> So much that you don't call it byte, but octet :)

Well octet is restricted to 8 bits, byte is not.

> > The last one is certainly the most stupid in my view 
> 
> We here in Germany do it quite the other way round. We directly use
> the English term. That's why a special computer (sorry, l'ordinateur :)
> slang appeared and non-technical people were no longer able to follow.
> But that doesn't really matter, because not understanding the terms
> also means not to understand the plot. :)))
> 
> I could get amused about these differences. The cellphone, the mobile
> and wireless phone, is strange, too. In English it is cellphone,
> the Germans call it "Handy" (pronounced English, means "to hold it
> in the hand") and for the Frenchs it is nomade, which would (for us)
> mean "not to settle down" - "moving around, itinerant".

Portable, Mobile, GSM.  I've also seen "G" but that's probably more a
Belgian usage than a french one.  "Nomad" (without e) is one of the
offers of a provider, that perhaps explain your confusion.

-- 
Jean-Marc

Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[John English]

Adrian Knoth wrote:
> I could get amused about these differences. The cellphone, the mobile
> and wireless phone, is strange, too. In English it is cellphone,
> the Germans call it "Handy" (pronounced English, means "to hold it
> in the hand") and for the Frenchs it is nomade, which would (for us)
> mean "not to settle down" - "moving around, itinerant".

I think Americans call them cellphones, but in the UK they're "mobiles"
(or as they become ubiquitous, just plain "phones").

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Re: OT: Meaning of the word "free"

[Wes Groleau]

> "Octet" is common even in English stadardese.  POSIX uses it, for
> example.

That's to avoid fights with purists who point out that
"byte" is not eight bits on some machines.

-- 
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: OT: Meaning of the word

[Ted Dennison]

In article <eFhM7.46638$RG1.24555639@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, tmoran@acm.org
says...
>
>>whereas the FSF "free" is an abbreviation for "free of certain contractual
>>restrictions".
>  Or perhaps it means "free" in the same sense as "The homeless are
>free of worry over mortgages or rent."

More in the sense of the old saying "Its a free country". (Well, 200+ years old
here in the US anyway).

Its not saying that we can help ourselves to anything in the country without
paying. Its also not saying that the country itself is free for the taking by
anyone who wants to own it. Its also not saying that the leaders of the country
are free to impose whatever terms they want on us. It is saying the we (in this
case, the "users") have a very large amount of freedom with this country,
tempered mainly by prohibitions against depriving anyone else of that same
freedom.

---
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However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Re: OT: Meaning of the word

[Preben Randhol]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:45:27 GMT, Ted Dennison wrote:

> More in the sense of the old saying "Its a free country". (Well, 200+
> years old here in the US anyway).

Hmm, that depends on your definition of freedom.

Preben
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